Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 128
Default Battery on the ground

Absolutely, unequivocally NOT.

Even if the ground is frozen YET the battery is fully charged, it still will
not discharge.

I can't believe that this wife's tale still persists and that some will go
to their grave arguing that it is true.

j/b


"SteveB" wrote in message
...
I have heard that if you sit a battery on the ground or concrete that it
will lose its charge faster. Is this true?

Steve



  #2   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 34
Default Battery on the ground

When I studied chemistry they told me taht H2SO4 and water were
soluble in each other in all proportions, also that a solution
cosisted of two substances that would not separate merely due to
differences in density.
Has any of this changed?

Engineman


I'm in the same age bracket as Steve and believe in the acid separating from

the water in strata due to chilling it. Ionic flow must take place
for battery
operation to take place. Without the acid mixed in evenly, only small
areas of
the plates can conduct electrons.

If only 5% is available, the effective

resistance is excessive and makes it look dead. Mar 21, 6:57 pm,
"jusme" wrote:
Absolutely, unequivocally NOT.

Even if the ground is frozen YET the battery is fully charged, it still will
not discharge.

I can't believe that this wife's tale still persists and that some will go
to their grave arguing that it is true.

j/b

"SteveB" wrote in message

...

I have heard that if you sit a battery on the ground or concrete that it
will lose its charge faster. Is this true?


Steve



  #4   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,138
Default Battery on the ground

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 08:26:00 -0600, Lew Hartswick
wrote:

wrote:
When I studied chemistry they told me taht H2SO4 and water were
soluble in each other in all proportions, also that a solution
cosisted of two substances that would not separate merely due to
differences in density.
Has any of this changed?

Engineman

Did "Chemistry" class ever explain how the ocean has different
layers of density that cause the sonor problems that are well
documented by submarines? I would think using your logic that
it would be one uniform solution. ????
...lew...


Some of those are thermoclines, regions where temperature (hence
density) changes rapidly in a short range of depth. These also occur
in some freshwater lakes during the summer, are visible with sonar.
  #5   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,803
Default Battery on the ground

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 08:26:00 -0600, Lew Hartswick
wrote:

wrote:
When I studied chemistry they told me taht H2SO4 and water were
soluble in each other in all proportions, also that a solution
cosisted of two substances that would not separate merely due to
differences in density.
Has any of this changed?

Engineman

Did "Chemistry" class ever explain how the ocean has different
layers of density that cause the sonor problems that are well
documented by submarines? I would think using your logic that
it would be one uniform solution. ????
...lew...


There are continuous inputs (e.g., rivers) and ouputs (evaporation) of
fresh water to and from the ocean which prevent it from ever reaching
equilibrium with respect to solutes, unlike electrolyte which is
thoroughly mixed before filling a battery.

Similarly, as a result of localized inputs and outputs of heat, most
bodies of water are also not in thermal equilibrium, as any swimmer
can attest. It seems reasonable that the same could be true of a
battery sitting undisturbed on a large heat sink (a concrete floor)
while air temp is fluctuating.

--
Ned Simmons


  #6   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 506
Default Battery on the ground

Don Foreman wrote:

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 08:26:00 -0600, Lew Hartswick
wrote:


wrote:

When I studied chemistry they told me taht H2SO4 and water were
soluble in each other in all proportions, also that a solution
cosisted of two substances that would not separate merely due to
differences in density.
Has any of this changed?

Engineman


Did "Chemistry" class ever explain how the ocean has different
layers of density that cause the sonor problems that are well
documented by submarines? I would think using your logic that
it would be one uniform solution. ????
...lew...



Some of those are thermoclines, regions where temperature (hence
density) changes rapidly in a short range of depth. These also occur
in some freshwater lakes during the summer, are visible with sonar.


And the same thing "cant" happen in an undisturbed battery.
...lew...
  #7   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 506
Default Battery on the ground

Ned Simmons wrote:

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 08:26:00 -0600, Lew Hartswick
wrote:


wrote:

When I studied chemistry they told me taht H2SO4 and water were
soluble in each other in all proportions, also that a solution
cosisted of two substances that would not separate merely due to
differences in density.
Has any of this changed?

Engineman


Did "Chemistry" class ever explain how the ocean has different
layers of density that cause the sonor problems that are well
documented by submarines? I would think using your logic that
it would be one uniform solution. ????
...lew...



There are continuous inputs (e.g., rivers) and ouputs (evaporation) of
fresh water to and from the ocean which prevent it from ever reaching
equilibrium with respect to solutes, unlike electrolyte which is
thoroughly mixed before filling a battery.

Similarly, as a result of localized inputs and outputs of heat, most
bodies of water are also not in thermal equilibrium, as any swimmer
can attest. It seems reasonable that the same could be true of a
battery sitting undisturbed on a large heat sink (a concrete floor)
while air temp is fluctuating.

A-MEN!
  #8   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,966
Default Battery on the ground

In article ,
Lew Hartswick wrote:

Ned Simmons wrote:

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 08:26:00 -0600, Lew Hartswick
wrote:


wrote:

When I studied chemistry they told me taht H2SO4 and water were
soluble in each other in all proportions, also that a solution
cosisted of two substances that would not separate merely due to
differences in density.
Has any of this changed?

Engineman


Did "Chemistry" class ever explain how the ocean has different
layers of density that cause the sonor problems that are well
documented by submarines? I would think using your logic that
it would be one uniform solution. ????
...lew...



There are continuous inputs (e.g., rivers) and ouputs (evaporation) of
fresh water to and from the ocean which prevent it from ever reaching
equilibrium with respect to solutes, unlike electrolyte which is
thoroughly mixed before filling a battery.

Similarly, as a result of localized inputs and outputs of heat, most
bodies of water are also not in thermal equilibrium, as any swimmer
can attest. It seems reasonable that the same could be true of a
battery sitting undisturbed on a large heat sink (a concrete floor)
while air temp is fluctuating.

A-MEN!


Batteries are too small to support much of a thermocline. It takes at
least a lake to get anything that will last more than an hour or two.

Joe Gwinn
  #9   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,803
Default Battery on the ground

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 18:09:57 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
Lew Hartswick wrote:

Ned Simmons wrote:

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 08:26:00 -0600, Lew Hartswick
wrote:


Did "Chemistry" class ever explain how the ocean has different
layers of density that cause the sonor problems that are well
documented by submarines? I would think using your logic that
it would be one uniform solution. ????
...lew...


There are continuous inputs (e.g., rivers) and ouputs (evaporation) of
fresh water to and from the ocean which prevent it from ever reaching
equilibrium with respect to solutes, unlike electrolyte which is
thoroughly mixed before filling a battery.

Similarly, as a result of localized inputs and outputs of heat, most
bodies of water are also not in thermal equilibrium, as any swimmer
can attest. It seems reasonable that the same could be true of a
battery sitting undisturbed on a large heat sink (a concrete floor)
while air temp is fluctuating.

A-MEN!


Batteries are too small to support much of a thermocline. It takes at
least a lake to get anything that will last more than an hour or two.


I didn't see any mention of a thermocline. What's been proposed is a
temperature gradient in a battery cell that's packed with enough stuff
to inhibit convection when set on a relatively good conductor that's
at a different temperature than the ambient air.

--
Ned Simmons
  #10   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,966
Default Battery on the ground

In article ,
Ned Simmons wrote:

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 18:09:57 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
Lew Hartswick wrote:

Ned Simmons wrote:

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 08:26:00 -0600, Lew Hartswick
wrote:


Did "Chemistry" class ever explain how the ocean has different
layers of density that cause the sonor problems that are well
documented by submarines? I would think using your logic that
it would be one uniform solution. ????
...lew...


There are continuous inputs (e.g., rivers) and ouputs (evaporation) of
fresh water to and from the ocean which prevent it from ever reaching
equilibrium with respect to solutes, unlike electrolyte which is
thoroughly mixed before filling a battery.

Similarly, as a result of localized inputs and outputs of heat, most
bodies of water are also not in thermal equilibrium, as any swimmer
can attest. It seems reasonable that the same could be true of a
battery sitting undisturbed on a large heat sink (a concrete floor)
while air temp is fluctuating.

A-MEN!


Batteries are too small to support much of a thermocline. It takes at
least a lake to get anything that will last more than an hour or two.


I didn't see any mention of a thermocline. What's been proposed is a
temperature gradient in a battery cell that's packed with enough stuff
to inhibit convection when set on a relatively good conductor that's
at a different temperature than the ambient air.


Lew Hartwick mentioned the thermocline.

But anyway, what's the thermal conductivity of the metal battery plates,
and of the electrolyte? It has to be 1000 times greater than air, and
unless the battery is *huge*, thermal equilibrium will soon be achieved.

Joe Gwinn


  #11   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,803
Default Battery on the ground

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 20:50:56 -0400, Joseph Gwinn
wrote:

In article ,
Ned Simmons wrote:



Batteries are too small to support much of a thermocline. It takes at
least a lake to get anything that will last more than an hour or two.


I didn't see any mention of a thermocline. What's been proposed is a
temperature gradient in a battery cell that's packed with enough stuff
to inhibit convection when set on a relatively good conductor that's
at a different temperature than the ambient air.


Lew Hartwick mentioned the thermocline.


I don't see that in Lew's posts, perhaps I missed one.


But anyway, what's the thermal conductivity of the metal battery plates,
and of the electrolyte? It has to be 1000 times greater than air, and
unless the battery is *huge*, thermal equilibrium will soon be achieved.


The heat capacity of a concrete slab and the earth below it is huge
compared to the battery, and it may take days to reach equilibrium
with the air. In the meantime, if the weather is trending warmer, the
bottom of the battery is cooled below ambient by the slab. I have no
idea whether the effect is actually large enough to discharge an
otherwise healthy battery, but I don't think the possibility can be
dismissed without either an experiment or some very messy
calculations.

In any case, I find the notion more plausible than *'s assertion that,
"Electrons WOULD leak through the porous case to ground - eventually
discharging the battery." g

--
Ned Simmons
  #12   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,138
Default Battery on the ground

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 15:25:26 -0600, Lew Hartswick
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 08:26:00 -0600, Lew Hartswick
wrote:


wrote:

When I studied chemistry they told me taht H2SO4 and water were
soluble in each other in all proportions, also that a solution
cosisted of two substances that would not separate merely due to
differences in density.
Has any of this changed?

Engineman


Did "Chemistry" class ever explain how the ocean has different
layers of density that cause the sonor problems that are well
documented by submarines? I would think using your logic that
it would be one uniform solution. ????
...lew...



Some of those are thermoclines, regions where temperature (hence
density) changes rapidly in a short range of depth. These also occur
in some freshwater lakes during the summer, are visible with sonar.


And the same thing "cant" happen in an undisturbed battery.
...lew...


Not to any significant extent, because the battery is only about a
foot deep at most.

I think the stratification is due to electrochemical action as David
Harmon suggested.
  #13   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,138
Default Battery on the ground

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 15:26:17 -0600, Lew Hartswick
wrote:

Ned Simmons wrote:

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 08:26:00 -0600, Lew Hartswick
wrote:


wrote:

When I studied chemistry they told me taht H2SO4 and water were
soluble in each other in all proportions, also that a solution
cosisted of two substances that would not separate merely due to
differences in density.
Has any of this changed?

Engineman


Did "Chemistry" class ever explain how the ocean has different
layers of density that cause the sonor problems that are well
documented by submarines? I would think using your logic that
it would be one uniform solution. ????
...lew...



There are continuous inputs (e.g., rivers) and ouputs (evaporation) of
fresh water to and from the ocean which prevent it from ever reaching
equilibrium with respect to solutes, unlike electrolyte which is
thoroughly mixed before filling a battery.

Similarly, as a result of localized inputs and outputs of heat, most
bodies of water are also not in thermal equilibrium, as any swimmer
can attest. It seems reasonable that the same could be true of a
battery sitting undisturbed on a large heat sink (a concrete floor)
while air temp is fluctuating.

A-MEN!


Have you noticed this while wading in a foot of water, or swimming on
the surface over deeper water on a calm day?

The thermal conductivity of water is not much different than that of
concrete -- roughly 0.5 W /(m*K). HDPE is also in the same ballpark.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/th...ity-d_429.html

Air is about 24 times less. A battery sitting on concrete surrounded
by air of different temperature will behave thermally about like a
block of concrete sitting on the concrete.


  #14   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,803
Default Battery on the ground

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 22:31:12 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 15:26:17 -0600, Lew Hartswick
wrote:

Ned Simmons wrote:

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 08:26:00 -0600, Lew Hartswick
wrote:


wrote:

When I studied chemistry they told me taht H2SO4 and water were
soluble in each other in all proportions, also that a solution
cosisted of two substances that would not separate merely due to
differences in density.
Has any of this changed?

Engineman


Did "Chemistry" class ever explain how the ocean has different
layers of density that cause the sonor problems that are well
documented by submarines? I would think using your logic that
it would be one uniform solution. ????
...lew...


There are continuous inputs (e.g., rivers) and ouputs (evaporation) of
fresh water to and from the ocean which prevent it from ever reaching
equilibrium with respect to solutes, unlike electrolyte which is
thoroughly mixed before filling a battery.

Similarly, as a result of localized inputs and outputs of heat, most
bodies of water are also not in thermal equilibrium, as any swimmer
can attest. It seems reasonable that the same could be true of a
battery sitting undisturbed on a large heat sink (a concrete floor)
while air temp is fluctuating.

A-MEN!


Have you noticed this while wading in a foot of water, or swimming on
the surface over deeper water on a calm day?


It's easier to notice on the scale of a couple feet in open water. But
one of my favorite places to swim has several ledges covered with
rockweed or bladderwrack; at half tide when the seaweed is floating on
the surface it inhibits convection and steepens the temperature
gradient near the surface. A few extra degrees feels pretty good when
the water temperature is in the low to mid 60's.

I would expect the plates in a battery to have much the same effect on
convection within the cells.

The thermal conductivity of water is not much different than that of
concrete -- roughly 0.5 W /(m*K). HDPE is also in the same ballpark.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/th...ity-d_429.html

Air is about 24 times less. A battery sitting on concrete surrounded
by air of different temperature will behave thermally about like a
block of concrete sitting on the concrete.


If one were inclined to calculate what the temp gradient might be,
treating the battery as a block, and ignoring convection, seems like a
reasonable first pass to me.

--
Ned Simmons
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Battery on the ground clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada Metalworking 10 March 23rd 08 12:43 AM
Battery on the ground Don Foreman Metalworking 6 March 22nd 08 04:50 AM
Battery on the ground Boris Mohar[_3_] Metalworking 1 March 21st 08 10:37 PM
Battery on the ground Don Foreman Metalworking 3 March 21st 08 08:36 AM
Bonded ground wires vs. earth ground wire Eigenvector Home Repair 21 December 28th 06 06:31 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:02 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"