A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.

And more is to come as the Republican recession deepens....

TMT

Foreclosed Homes: A Local Blight By KRISTIN KLOBERDANZ/MODESTO
Tue Mar 18

The peach-colored house in a modest subdivision near downtown Modesto,
Calif., used to be someone's dream home. But it stands out in a row of
similarly hued homes where many have a "For Sale" sign planted in
their front yards. The two-story appears battered: its address has
been scratched on a front panel and weeds choke what may once have
been a manicured lawn. And then there is the overwhelming stench of
human waste and stale beer. There has been no electricity and no
running water since the bank repossessed it months ago. Still, at
least three young men have been squatting here since January. The
dream home has become a nightmare.


This horror is not an uncommon sight in the Northern San Joaquin
Valley, where foreclosure rates are among the highest in the nation,
and vacant properties - so tempting to vagrants - flourish.


From a fire-gutted shell across from a pretty park on the north side
of town to a mangy wreck near the airport where a collection of cats
and dogs were found chained together in the yard, abandoned residences
are putting a blight on all types of neighborhoods. "We get about six
to ten calls a day on vacant homes," says police officer John McGill,
who stresses that this isn't just a problem in the poorer parts of
town.


Transients often move in, steal the power, tear apart the walls and
floorboards in search of valuable copper wires and piping and set
fires to cook drugs or keep warm. The police struggle to keep the
damage under control; but with no owner around to claim a trespass
violation on a repossessed home, it's difficult for them to make
arrests. All they can do is tell the squatters to leave, board up the
house and ship off a note to the bank that now owns the property.
"It's a victimless crime," says Bert Lippert, a bit sarcastically.


Lippert, along with police officers McGill and Amy Bublak, make up the
city's health unit, which takes care of vacant home problems.
Burglaries are up 26% in Modesto since a year ago, and the officers
say this has to do with the relentless assaults on foreclosed homes.
"We're seeing a shift in crimes," Bublak says, noting that people used
to just steal property from the outside. Now, in addition to
vandalizing the property, stripping its bones and using the yard as a
dumping ground, thieves have zeroed in on the homes' utilities. "Forty
percent of foreclosed homes in Modesto get their power stolen," says
the Modesto Irrigation District's Louis Maceira,who can often be found
locking or removing meters from these homes.


Just recently, this quiet, agricultural town of 200,000 was in a boom
period. House prices shot up in the early 2000s, and Modesto became a
bedroom community for the Bay area. But then the subprime mortgage
crisis hit hard: in February alone, Stanislaus County had 1,630
foreclosure filings, third highest in the nation. The physical toll it
is taking on this hub nestled amid the almond groves is staggering.
Huge, dusty stretches of subdivision developments lay untouched or
partially built as developers run out of money.


The 300-bed homeless shelter is now at capacity, and the local Humane
Society is swollen with pets that were left behind in homes when their
owners disappeared. Day laborers and contractors alike are having
trouble finding work. "This is a problem that's affecting the whole
community," Lippert says.


There are some glimmers of hope on the horizon. Charities like Habitat
for Humanity are taking advantage of the cheap home prices and labor
to fix up abandoned properties for underprivileged families. The
strangely upbeat Repo Home Tour bus is about to launch a regular
Saturday showing of vacant houses in an effort to get them sold
quickly. And the city, lenders and financial counselors are joining
forces to help residents prevent foreclosure. In fact, less than a
mile away from the peach-colored home, close to 1,000 people recently
gathered for the city's first free No Homeowner Left Behind seminar,
sponsored in part by the city and the local newspaper, the Modesto
Bee. Worried residents gathered to spend their Saturday talking to
lenders about how they can avoid losing their own homes. "I'm stressed
and in turmoil and have butterflies in my stomach," says P.J. Scruggs,
who says she is two months behind in paying her mortgage. She is
afraid she will lose the home that has been in her family for 35
years. "It's scary - this is just too rampant in the Valley."


If they need a cautionary nightmare, they can walk by the peach-
colored house. Just beyond the front door, a toilet has exploded into
the foyer and a thick sludge of feces seeps across the tiles and into
the living room. Beer bottles, wine boxes, cigarette cartons, condom
wrappers, dirty clothes and dog chow pile up on the soggy carpeting.
Gang tags and drug-addled poetry splash the walls in red, gold and
black spray paint. The decimated kitchen counters sag beneath jugs of
curdled milk and rot-encrusted dishes. Scratched in the entrance hall
is a fitting salutation: "Welcome to Hell." View this article on
Time.com

I think that I have seen this once before a long time ago.

I hope that such things would not become too prevalent and will remain
isolated. Hopefully the capitalist economy would realign itself
quickly.

i

On 2008-03-19, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.

And more is to come as the Republican recession deepens....

TMT

Foreclosed Homes: A Local Blight By KRISTIN KLOBERDANZ/MODESTO
Tue Mar 18

The peach-colored house in a modest subdivision near downtown Modesto,
Calif., used to be someone's dream home. But it stands out in a row of
similarly hued homes where many have a "For Sale" sign planted in
their front yards. The two-story appears battered: its address has
been scratched on a front panel and weeds choke what may once have
been a manicured lawn. And then there is the overwhelming stench of
human waste and stale beer. There has been no electricity and no
running water since the bank repossessed it months ago. Still, at
least three young men have been squatting here since January. The
dream home has become a nightmare.


This horror is not an uncommon sight in the Northern San Joaquin
Valley, where foreclosure rates are among the highest in the nation,
and vacant properties - so tempting to vagrants - flourish.


From a fire-gutted shell across from a pretty park on the north side
of town to a mangy wreck near the airport where a collection of cats
and dogs were found chained together in the yard, abandoned residences
are putting a blight on all types of neighborhoods. "We get about six
to ten calls a day on vacant homes," says police officer John McGill,
who stresses that this isn't just a problem in the poorer parts of
town.


Transients often move in, steal the power, tear apart the walls and
floorboards in search of valuable copper wires and piping and set
fires to cook drugs or keep warm. The police struggle to keep the
damage under control; but with no owner around to claim a trespass
violation on a repossessed home, it's difficult for them to make
arrests. All they can do is tell the squatters to leave, board up the
house and ship off a note to the bank that now owns the property.
"It's a victimless crime," says Bert Lippert, a bit sarcastically.


Lippert, along with police officers McGill and Amy Bublak, make up the
city's health unit, which takes care of vacant home problems.
Burglaries are up 26% in Modesto since a year ago, and the officers
say this has to do with the relentless assaults on foreclosed homes.
"We're seeing a shift in crimes," Bublak says, noting that people used
to just steal property from the outside. Now, in addition to
vandalizing the property, stripping its bones and using the yard as a
dumping ground, thieves have zeroed in on the homes' utilities. "Forty
percent of foreclosed homes in Modesto get their power stolen," says
the Modesto Irrigation District's Louis Maceira,who can often be found
locking or removing meters from these homes.


Just recently, this quiet, agricultural town of 200,000 was in a boom
period. House prices shot up in the early 2000s, and Modesto became a
bedroom community for the Bay area. But then the subprime mortgage
crisis hit hard: in February alone, Stanislaus County had 1,630
foreclosure filings, third highest in the nation. The physical toll it
is taking on this hub nestled amid the almond groves is staggering.
Huge, dusty stretches of subdivision developments lay untouched or
partially built as developers run out of money.


The 300-bed homeless shelter is now at capacity, and the local Humane
Society is swollen with pets that were left behind in homes when their
owners disappeared. Day laborers and contractors alike are having
trouble finding work. "This is a problem that's affecting the whole
community," Lippert says.


There are some glimmers of hope on the horizon. Charities like Habitat
for Humanity are taking advantage of the cheap home prices and labor
to fix up abandoned properties for underprivileged families. The
strangely upbeat Repo Home Tour bus is about to launch a regular
Saturday showing of vacant houses in an effort to get them sold
quickly. And the city, lenders and financial counselors are joining
forces to help residents prevent foreclosure. In fact, less than a
mile away from the peach-colored home, close to 1,000 people recently
gathered for the city's first free No Homeowner Left Behind seminar,
sponsored in part by the city and the local newspaper, the Modesto
Bee. Worried residents gathered to spend their Saturday talking to
lenders about how they can avoid losing their own homes. "I'm stressed
and in turmoil and have butterflies in my stomach," says P.J. Scruggs,
who says she is two months behind in paying her mortgage. She is
afraid she will lose the home that has been in her family for 35
years. "It's scary - this is just too rampant in the Valley."


If they need a cautionary nightmare, they can walk by the peach-
colored house. Just beyond the front door, a toilet has exploded into
the foyer and a thick sludge of feces seeps across the tiles and into
the living room. Beer bottles, wine boxes, cigarette cartons, condom
wrappers, dirty clothes and dog chow pile up on the soggy carpeting.
Gang tags and drug-addled poetry splash the walls in red, gold and
black spray paint. The decimated kitchen counters sag beneath jugs of
curdled milk and rot-encrusted dishes. Scratched in the entrance hall
is a fitting salutation: "Welcome to Hell." View this article on
Time.com

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.


See what I mean? Another off topic thread to stir up trouble.


--
aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists

Add this line to your news proxy nfilter.dat file
* drop Path:*aioe.org!not-for-mail to drop all aioe.org traffic.

http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

Too Many TROLLS lives up to his name, yet again..............

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.

And more is to come as the Republican recession deepens....

TMT


Been that way on our street for years . Started with the first
section 8 rental and been going downhill ever since . We have more empty
houses on our street than occupied ... with the derelicts and ho's and
drug dealers that go along .
--
Snag , but they leave "the Harley Guy" alone .

"NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote:

Nothing to doo with republicans! All to do with people who spent MUCH
more than they had coming in. People ,with no commin sense, that can only
blame themselves for the situation they are in.


Just another version of the run on Nasdaq, Enron, ect. By the time we
commoners find out about the ez money it is sucker time.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Mar 19, 3:41*am, "*" wrote:
Too Many TROLLS lives up to his name, yet again..............

Oh...you mean you can handle Too Much Truth?

Would you like some cheese to go with that conservative whine?

The simple fact is that if the housing industry was going boom Bush
would be taking the credit.

The ugly fact is that the housing industry is going bust due to
handing out money to unqualified buyers...which resulted from NO
government oversight.

The blame for this lies squarely with the Republican Adminstration.

Note that they can bail the Bear Stearn money boys out so they can
keep their mansions while the guy on the street who is working two/
three jobs gets thrown out on the street.

And another little detail you may want to consider...why aren't the
owners of these foreclosed homes...the banks...providing adequate
security and support for their properties?

The answer...because it would cost them money.

And Republicans just hate to spend their money when they can spend the
public's money.

TMT

On Mar 19, 4:39*am, Terry Coombs wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.

And more is to come as the Republican recession deepens....

TMT

* *Been that way on our street for years . Started with the first
section 8 rental and been going downhill ever since . We have more empty
houses on our street than occupied ... with the derelicts and ho's and
drug dealers that go along .
* *--
* *Snag , but they leave "the Harley Guy" alone .

The Republicans have been at the helm of this country for years...

TMT

On Mar 19, 7:23*am, "NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...

A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.

Nothing to doo with republicans! *All to do with people who spent MUCH
more than they had coming in. * People ,with no commin sense, that can only
blame themselves for the situation they are in.



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Wrong.

Banks are the gatekeepers...they have a responsibility to their
creditors to lend money responsibily.

When they make bad loans...and they have made MILLLIONS of bad
loans...it shows that there was no oversight...and that places the
blame squarely upon the Republican Adminstration.

TMT

On Mar 19, 12:54*pm, cavelamb himself wrote:
Wes wrote:
"NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote:

Nothing to doo with republicans! *All to do with people who spent MUCH
more than they had coming in. * People ,with no commin sense, that can only
blame themselves for the situation they are in.

Just another version of the run on Nasdaq, Enron, ect. *By the time we
commoners find out about the ez money it is sucker time.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." *Dick Anthony Heller

What ever happened to, "You can't cheat an honest man"?

You want something for nothing, you get nothing for something.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have heard that saying used when referencing President Bush.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools wrote in news:d2d21c61-408f-4a16-
:

A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.

It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

Perhaps you're too young to remember the last time - about 25 years ago -
when over-enthusiastic Real Estate salescritters teamed up with Mortgage
Lenders to radically inflate property values and then "qualify" prospective
buyers based upon what they dreamed of making rather than what they
actually made.

This happens on a regular basis.

A sure sign that one of these is approaching is a sudden increase of
"Adjustable Rate" (ie. "Balloon Payment") mortgages. The sure sign that the
bubble is about to burst is a sudden spate of TV ads from mortgage
companies offering to "re-negotiate" and/or "reduce" mortgage payments.

Had you noticed all of the Ditech ads that started running a couple of
years ago?

One interesting thing that I've noticed: the "Blue" states seem to be
bearing the brunt of the problem...

Wes wrote:

"NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote:


Nothing to doo with republicans! All to do with people who spent MUCH
more than they had coming in. People ,with no commin sense, that can only
blame themselves for the situation they are in.



Just another version of the run on Nasdaq, Enron, ect. By the time we
commoners find out about the ez money it is sucker time.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller


What ever happened to, "You can't cheat an honest man"?

You want something for nothing, you get nothing for something.

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Mar 19, 3:41 am, "*" wrote:

Too Many TROLLS lives up to his name, yet again..............


Oh...you mean you can handle Too Much Truth?

Would you like some cheese to go with that conservative whine?

The simple fact is that if the housing industry was going boom Bush
would be taking the credit.

The ugly fact is that the housing industry is going bust due to
handing out money to unqualified buyers...which resulted from NO
government oversight.

The blame for this lies squarely with the Republican Adminstration.

Note that they can bail the Bear Stearn money boys out so they can
keep their mansions while the guy on the street who is working two/
three jobs gets thrown out on the street.

And another little detail you may want to consider...why aren't the
owners of these foreclosed homes...the banks...providing adequate
security and support for their properties?

The answer...because it would cost them money.

And Republicans just hate to spend their money when they can spend the
public's money.

TMT


Oh for pete sake, you are gettign as bad a that pidgeon hawkie.

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

On Mar 19, 12:54 pm, cavelamb himself wrote:

Wes wrote:

"NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote:

Nothing to doo with republicans! All to do with people who spent MUCH
more than they had coming in. People ,with no commin sense, that can only
blame themselves for the situation they are in.

Just another version of the run on Nasdaq, Enron, ect. By the time we
commoners find out about the ez money it is sucker time.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

What ever happened to, "You can't cheat an honest man"?

You want something for nothing, you get nothing for something.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I have heard that saying used when referencing President Bush.

TMT


this is looking like Obsessive compulsive disorder...

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Mar 19, 3:41 am, "*" wrote:
Too Many TROLLS lives up to his name, yet again..............

Oh...you mean you can handle Too Much Truth?

Would you like some cheese to go with that conservative whine?

The simple fact is that if the housing industry was going boom Bush
would be taking the credit.

The ugly fact is that the housing industry is going bust due to
handing out money to unqualified buyers...which resulted from NO
government oversight.

The blame for this lies squarely with the Republican Adminstration.

Gee you mean the fact that it was the Democrats that pushed the
regulations through that forced the banks to loan money to bad risk
people didn't happen? That speech Hillary gave about how these people
deserve to own homes and the banks are just to strict in giving loans
didn't happen either?



Note that they can bail the Bear Stearn money boys out so they can
keep their mansions while the guy on the street who is working two/
three jobs gets thrown out on the street.

And another little detail you may want to consider...why aren't the
owners of these foreclosed homes...the banks...providing adequate
security and support for their properties?

Why should they. The banks pay taxes which support the police
departments as well. The problem is that the illegals and squatters have
been given free reign by the democrats and the liberals. Or didn't you
notice that it is liberal run cities that are saying "come here and find
sanctuary".



The answer...because it would cost them money.

And Republicans just hate to spend their money when they can spend the
public's money.

TMT


--
Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Mar 19, 4:39 am, Terry Coombs wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.
And more is to come as the Republican recession deepens....
TMT
Been that way on our street for years . Started with the first
section 8 rental and been going downhill ever since . We have more empty
houses on our street than occupied ... with the derelicts and ho's and
drug dealers that go along .
--
Snag , but they leave "the Harley Guy" alone .

The Republicans have been at the helm of this country for years...

TMT

Maybe in an alternate reality. In this one the Democrats have been in
control FAR longer. 40 consecutive years in the Senate until 1995

Care to argue with the actual recorded numbers?

http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/his...s/partydiv.htm
http://clerk.house.gov/art_history/h.../partyDiv.html

--
Steve W.

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Mar 19, 7:23 am, "NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...

A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.
Nothing to doo with republicans! All to do with people who spent MUCH
more than they had coming in. People ,with no commin sense, that can only
blame themselves for the situation they are in.



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Wrong.

Banks are the gatekeepers...they have a responsibility to their
creditors to lend money responsibily.

When they make bad loans...and they have made MILLLIONS of bad
loans...it shows that there was no oversight...and that places the
blame squarely upon the Republican Adminstration.

TMT

And when the Democrats FORCED the banks to make these bad loans when the
banks didn't want to, whose fault was that?


--
Steve W.

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Mar 19, 7:23 am, "NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...

A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.

Nothing to doo with republicans! All to do with people who spent MUCH
more than they had coming in. People ,with no commin sense, that can only
blame themselves for the situation they are in.



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Wrong.

Banks are the gatekeepers...they have a responsibility to their
creditors to lend money responsibily.

When they make bad loans...and they have made MILLLIONS of bad
loans...it shows that there was no oversight...and that places the
blame squarely upon the Republican Adminstration.


Typical leftist rant !!!



TMT

"NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote in message
...

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Mar 19, 7:23 am, "NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...

A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.

Nothing to doo with republicans! All to do with people who spent MUCH
more than they had coming in. People ,with no commin sense, that can only
blame themselves for the situation they are in.



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Wrong.

Banks are the gatekeepers...they have a responsibility to their
creditors to lend money responsibily.

When they make bad loans...and they have made MILLLIONS of bad
loans...it shows that there was no oversight...and that places the
blame squarely upon the Republican Adminstration.


Typical leftist rant !!!

The deregulation of banking that led to this debacle started under Reagan,
continued under Bush I, accelerated under Clinton, and basically was all but
abandoned completely under Bush II. Before Reagan, those loans would have
been illegal, because banks faced an explicit regulation for "prudent risk
management practices," and against "predatory lending," which included
several of the things these loaners have done recently: Now, it's a
"guideline."

It wasn't Republican or Democrat. It was the Washington Consensus of
economic policy, which, among other things, advocates deregulation of
banking and finance. You really can't lay it on any single administration.
You CAN lay it on an ill-advised idea that banks would behave prudently,
even when money is hot and competition demands that they make lots of loans,
just to stay afloat. It was a failure of oversight, fueled by a sophomoric
ideology.

--
Ed Huntress

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...


Nothing to doo with republicans! All to do with people who spent MUCH
more than they had coming in. People ,with no commin sense, that can only
blame themselves for the situation they are in.



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Wrong.

Banks are the gatekeepers...they have a responsibility to their
creditors to lend money responsibily.

I don't agree completely. Sure the bank should be responsible for their own
profits. Giving out loans to people that can not afford them, so the bank
gets stuck seems like the banks problem to me. On the other hand the person
with his hand out looking to borrow money needs to be responsible for their
own financial situation too.

For example, I refinanced my home ~5 years ago, shaved two points, added
about $50 to my payment, shortened the term ten years, and saved myself
about $20,000 on the life of the loan! The bank ran the paper work, then
called me and said all was good and they would loan be the money, BUT, they
also asked my if I had considered buying a different home because of my
income and credit situation I should be in a house worth 3 times of the one
I am in! I said no way! They also asked me if I was interested in more
money, to remodel, or buy a new vehicle, home equity loan in other words.
Again I said no!
Just because someone is willing to throw money at you does not mean you need
to take it!!
Greg

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:35:35 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:
snip
Why should they. The banks pay taxes which support the police
departments as well. The problem is that the illegals and squatters have
been given free reign by the democrats and the liberals. Or didn't you
notice that it is liberal run cities that are saying "come here and find
sanctuary".
snip
=============
From one perspective this is true, however it may be that you are
missing the bigger picture, specifically *WHY* are the illegals
hear requesting "sanctuary" in the first place. This is a
relatively new phenomena [c.1980?], especially on this scale.

My Spanish is not good, but in talking to several of these
undocumented workers with the help of a relative that is fluent,
to a person they don't *WANT* to be here. Consider that it is
expensive and dangerous to make the trip in the first place,
second it involves long separations from your immediate and
extended family, and third, the environment, food, laws, etc. are
strange and the weather cold.

Why then are they here?

While this is not true in every case, the Mexicans, especially
the rural Mexicans, were forced off their small farms by the
ultra cheap corn sold by the international grain trading
companies. Many of the urban Mexicans were small shopkeepers put
out of business by Wal-Mart. In both cases it was immigrate to
the USA and find what work you can or starve along with your
family. Thus most of the Mexican migration is part of the
undocumented and externalized [to the public] cost of NAFTA.

In the case of the undocumented immigrants from Latin American
countries south of Mexico, in many cases it was fear for their
life at the hands of governmental or land-owner "death squads,"
seizure of their small land holdings by the multi-nationals and
"latafundio" [huge low productive estates] land owners, with a
significant number pushed off their lands because of the ultra
cheap subsidized corn and other crops, and many of the urban
dwellers, again displaced by Wal-Mart or their trade was
destroyed when their customers were pauperized.

The immigration from sub-Mexican Latin America is due to two
overlapping causes. (1) Starvation -- because of the
lack/elimination of any gainful employment. This is yet more of
the "externalized" NAFTA costs the public pays while the
trans-nationals reap the profits, and (2) Fear of being murdered
as a "terrorist" as a result of anti-communist crusades
championed by US companies such as ITT, Chiquita, United Fruit,
etc. when the local host countries began to demand that they pay
reasonable taxes on the land they owned and the profits they
made, e.g. Guatemala, El Salvador, Columbia, Nicaragua, Chile,
Peru, etc.

Make no mistake about it -- these [and several other] countries
engaged in genocide on a massive scale, with large numbers of
their Indian populations "liquidated" because they were perceived
to be "troublemakers" because they complained about being kicked
off their ancestral lands, their timber being clear cut, or being
poisoned by the drilling, mining, etc. all with no royalties
payments. Where the indigenous population was extinct, large
numbers of the lower class were "liquidated," for example
Argentina.

FWIW -- In most cases, the farmers and farm laborers forced from
their countries tend to be of Indian rather than Spanish descent,
and may speak limited Spanish.

Therefore, the problem, when analyzed in depth, is that the
"illegals" are here, not because the want to be here, but because
they were forced from their home country by reasons of
"predatory/exploitative economics" and/or "state sponsored [or at
least condoned] terrorism," largely due to *EXTERNAL forces over
which they have no control, many of which unfortunately appear to
originate in the US from US domiciled trans-national
corporations.

Frankly, it appears that supplying Subcomandante Insurgente
Marcos in Chiapias with 1,000 AKs and ample ammunition will do
far more to correct the immigration problem, by eliminating the
root causes, than 100 times the same amount of money spent on a
border fence (to be constructed with undocumented workers).
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-15405372.html
http://www.independence.net/home/chiapas.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subcomandante_Marcos


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

Hoovervilles are starting to form as well.

Copied from another list:

America's new subprime shanty-towns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnnOOo6tRs8

Posted by Cory Doctorow, March 17, 2008 9:07 PM | permalink
In this chilling BBC clip, a newsteam ventures to one of LA's new
shantytowns made up of people who've lost their homes in the subprime
meltdown and now live in tents, improvised shacks or RVs on abandoned land.
It's the contemporary Hooverville, and, as the Subliterate Cinephile notes,
I wonder why I found out about this from the BBC and not US media.
--
-Ed Falk,
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/

On Mar 19, 12:23*pm, Eregon wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote in news:d2d21c61-408f-4a16-
:

A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.

It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

Perhaps you're too young to remember the last time - about 25 years ago -
when over-enthusiastic Real Estate salescritters teamed up with Mortgage
Lenders to radically inflate property values and then "qualify" prospective
buyers based upon what they dreamed of making rather than what they
actually made.

This happens on a regular basis.

A sure sign that one of these is approaching is a sudden increase of
"Adjustable Rate" (ie. "Balloon Payment") mortgages. The sure sign that the
bubble is about to burst is a sudden spate of TV ads from mortgage
companies offering to "re-negotiate" and/or "reduce" mortgage payments.

Had you noticed all of the Ditech ads that started running a couple of
years ago?

One interesting thing that I've noticed: the "Blue" states seem to be
bearing the brunt of the problem...

You mean the Reagan years?

As for the Blue states taking it on the chin...better check
again...many Red states are going down the drain...listen..you can
hear the Republicans screaming.

TMT

On Mar 19, 1:20*pm, cavelamb himself wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Mar 19, 12:54 pm, cavelamb himself wrote:

Wes wrote:

"NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote:

Nothing to doo with republicans! *All to do with people who spent MUCH
more than they had coming in. * People ,with no commin sense, that can only
blame themselves for the situation they are in.

Just another version of the run on Nasdaq, Enron, ect. *By the time we
commoners find out about the ez money it is sucker time.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." *Dick Anthony Heller

What ever happened to, "You can't cheat an honest man"?

You want something for nothing, you get nothing for something.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have heard that saying used when referencing President Bush.

TMT

this is looking like Obsessive compulsive disorder...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nope..I have no urge to look for love in an airport bathroom stall,
shoot a friend in the face, hit on Congressional boy pages, choke on a
pretzel, clear bush on my ranch, read the book My Pet Goat or vote
Republican.


TMT

On Mar 19, 3:35*pm, "Steve W." wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Mar 19, 3:41 am, "*" wrote:
Too Many TROLLS lives up to his name, yet again..............

Oh...you mean you can handle Too Much Truth?

Would you like some cheese to go with that conservative whine?

The simple fact is that if the housing industry was going boom Bush
would be taking the credit.

The ugly fact is that the housing industry is going bust due to
handing out money to unqualified buyers...which resulted from NO
government oversight.

The blame for this lies squarely with the Republican Adminstration.

Gee you mean the fact that it was the Democrats that pushed the
regulations through that forced the banks to loan money to bad risk
people didn't happen? That speech Hillary gave about how these people
deserve to own homes and the banks are just to strict in giving loans
didn't happen either?



Note that they can bail the Bear Stearn money boys out so they can
keep their mansions while the guy on the street who is working two/
three jobs gets thrown out on the street.

And another little detail you may want to consider...why aren't the
owners of these foreclosed homes...the banks...providing adequate
security and support for their properties?

Why should they. The banks pay taxes which support the police
departments as well. The problem is that the illegals and squatters have
been given free reign by the democrats and the liberals. Or didn't you
notice that it is liberal run cities that are saying "come here and find
sanctuary".



The answer...because it would cost them money.

And Republicans just hate to spend their money when they can spend the
public's money.

TMT

--
Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Like I said, Republicans just hate to spend their money when the
public's cash is so available.

Like $230 billion for Bear Stearns....for the No Republican Left
Behind program....a millionarie is a terrible thing to waste..

TMT

On Mar 19, 4:03*pm, "Steve W." wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Mar 19, 4:39 am, Terry Coombs wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.
And more is to come as the Republican recession deepens....
TMT
* *Been that way on our street for years . Started with the first
section 8 rental and been going downhill ever since . We have more empty
houses on our street than occupied ... with the derelicts and ho's and
drug dealers that go along .
* *--
* *Snag , but they leave "the Harley Guy" alone .

The Republicans have been at the helm of this country for years...

TMT

Maybe in an alternate reality. In this one the Democrats have been in
control FAR longer. 40 consecutive years in the Senate until 1995

Care to argue with the actual recorded numbers?

http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/his.../partyDiv.html

--
Steve W.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Must be why Bush only started using his vetos since November 2006...

TMT

On Mar 19, 4:04*pm, "Steve W." wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Mar 19, 7:23 am, "NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

....

A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.
Nothing to doo with republicans! *All to do with people who spent MUCH
more than they had coming in. * People ,with no commin sense, that can only
blame themselves for the situation they are in.

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Wrong.

Banks are the gatekeepers...they have a responsibility to their
creditors to lend money responsibily.

When they make bad loans...and they have made MILLLIONS of bad
loans...it shows that there was no oversight...and that places the
blame squarely upon the Republican Adminstration.

TMT

And when the Democrats FORCED the banks to make these bad loans when the
banks didn't want to, whose fault was that?

--
Steve W.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hmmm...I don't remember seeing any Democrat with a gun to the head of
any banker?

TMT

On Mar 19, 5:39*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote in message

...







"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Mar 19, 7:23 am, "NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

....

A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.

Nothing to doo with republicans! All to do with people who spent MUCH
more than they had coming in. People ,with no commin sense, that can only
blame themselves for the situation they are in.

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Wrong.

Banks are the gatekeepers...they have a responsibility to their
creditors to lend money responsibily.

When they make bad loans...and they have made MILLLIONS of bad
loans...it shows that there was no oversight...and that places the
blame squarely upon the Republican Adminstration.

Typical leftist rant !!!

The deregulation of banking that led to this debacle started under Reagan,
continued under Bush I, accelerated under Clinton, and basically was all but
abandoned completely under Bush II. Before Reagan, those loans would have
been illegal, because banks faced an explicit regulation for "prudent risk
management practices," and against "predatory lending," which included
several of the things these loaners have done recently: *Now, it's a
"guideline."

It wasn't Republican or Democrat. It was the Washington Consensus of
economic policy, which, among other things, advocates deregulation of
banking and finance. You really can't lay it on any single administration.
You CAN lay it on an ill-advised idea that banks would behave prudently,
even when money is hot and competition demands that they make lots of loans,
just to stay afloat. It was a failure of oversight, fueled by a sophomoric
ideology.

--
Ed Huntress- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No Ed...it was this Republican Administration.

Check when the housing boom started...2003....which lies squarely in
the Bush years.

And the bust...well it hasn't ended yet, has it?

And who is the President?

TMT

On Mar 19, 6:01*pm, "Greg O" wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...



Nothing to doo with republicans! All to do with people who spent MUCH
more than they had coming in. People ,with no commin sense, that can only
blame themselves for the situation they are in.

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Wrong.
Banks are the gatekeepers...they have a responsibility to their
creditors to lend money responsibily.

I don't agree completely. Sure the bank should be responsible for their own
profits. Giving out loans to people that can not afford them, so the bank
gets stuck seems like the banks problem to me. On the other hand the person
with his hand out looking to borrow money needs to be responsible for their
own financial situation too.

For example, I refinanced my home ~5 years ago, shaved two points, added
about $50 to my payment, shortened the term ten years, and saved myself
about $20,000 on the life of the loan! The bank ran the paper work, then
called me and said all was good and they would loan be the money, BUT, they
also asked my if I had considered buying a different home because of my
income and credit situation I should be in a house worth 3 times of the one
I am in! I said no way! They also asked me if I was interested in more
money, to remodel, or buy a new vehicle, home equity loan in other words.
Again I said no!
Just because someone is willing to throw money at you does not mean you need
to take it!!
Greg

Greg...you make some good points but the reality is no borrower will
get money unless the bank okays the loan...they are the
gatekeeper...and they are handing out the depositor's money...so it is
their responsibility to make profitable loans.

They did not.

Placing the blame on the borrower is the blame game that the bankers
are playing...a shell game.

A shell game that is being played because the alternative is the
someone is going to jail for fraud for giving money to people who
couldn't pay back.

Lots of banks are sweating for a very good reason...fraud causes
depositors to withdraw their deposits.

TMT

On Mar 19, 6:29*pm, (Edward A. Falk) wrote:
Hoovervilles are starting to form as well.

Copied from another list:

America's new subprime shanty-townshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnnOOo6tRs8

Posted by Cory Doctorow, March 17, 2008 9:07 PM | permalink
In this chilling BBC clip, a newsteam ventures to one of LA's new
shantytowns made up of people who've lost their homes in the subprime
meltdown and now live in tents, improvised shacks or RVs on abandoned land..
It's the contemporary Hooverville, and, as the Subliterate Cinephile notes,
I wonder why I found out about this from the BBC and not US media.
--
* * * * -Ed Falk,
* * * *http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/

You know why...the press is in the Republican pocket.

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Mar 19, 5:39 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote in message

...







"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Mar 19, 7:23 am, "NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...

A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.

Nothing to doo with republicans! All to do with people who spent MUCH
more than they had coming in. People ,with no commin sense, that can
only
blame themselves for the situation they are in.

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Wrong.

Banks are the gatekeepers...they have a responsibility to their
creditors to lend money responsibily.

When they make bad loans...and they have made MILLLIONS of bad
loans...it shows that there was no oversight...and that places the
blame squarely upon the Republican Adminstration.

Typical leftist rant !!!

The deregulation of banking that led to this debacle started under Reagan,
continued under Bush I, accelerated under Clinton, and basically was all
but
abandoned completely under Bush II. Before Reagan, those loans would have
been illegal, because banks faced an explicit regulation for "prudent risk
management practices," and against "predatory lending," which included
several of the things these loaners have done recently: Now, it's a
"guideline."

It wasn't Republican or Democrat. It was the Washington Consensus of
economic policy, which, among other things, advocates deregulation of
banking and finance. You really can't lay it on any single administration.
You CAN lay it on an ill-advised idea that banks would behave prudently,
even when money is hot and competition demands that they make lots of
loans,
just to stay afloat. It was a failure of oversight, fueled by a sophomoric
ideology.

--
Ed Huntress- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No Ed...it was this Republican Administration.

Check when the housing boom started...2003....which lies squarely in
the Bush years.

And the bust...well it hasn't ended yet, has it?

And who is the President?

TMT

================================================== ==

From today's New York Times:

"So let's go back to the beginning of the boom.

"It really started in 1998, when large numbers of people decided that real
estate, which still hadn't recovered from the early 1990s slump, had become
a bargain. At the same time, Wall Street was making it easier for buyers to
get loans. It was transforming the mortgage business from a local one,
centered around banks, to a global one, in which investors from almost
anywhere could pool money to lend.

"The new competition brought down mortgage fees and spurred some useful
innovation. Why, after all, should someone who knows that she's going to
move after just a few years have no choice but to take out a 30-year
fixed-rate mortgage?

"As is often the case with innovations, though, there was soon too much of a
good thing. Those same global investors, flush with cash from Asia's boom or
rising oil prices, demanded good returns. Wall Street had an answer:
subprime mortgages."



Which agrees with most of the sober economic analysis you'll see if you look
around. Not that it doesn't fit with the neocon philosophy, but, first of
all, Bush doesn't know enough about it to have an opinion, or to have had
much to do with it. Krugman is putting much of the whole mess on Greenspan's
shoulders, and he makes a good case.

--

Ed Huntress

On Mar 19, 4:55*pm, "NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...
On Mar 19, 7:23 am, "NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote:

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...

A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.

Nothing to doo with republicans! All to do with people who spent MUCH
more than they had coming in. People ,with no commin sense, that can only
blame themselves for the situation they are in.

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Wrong.

Banks are the gatekeepers...they have a responsibility to their
creditors to lend money responsibily.

When they make bad loans...and they have made MILLLIONS of bad
loans...it shows that there was no oversight...and that places the
blame squarely upon the Republican Adminstration.

Typical leftist rant !!!

TMT

Typical conservative excuse.

If it is wrong, then why is the banking industry in such financial
trouble?

And how many more Bear Stearns can you afford?

TMT

On Mar 19, 6:27*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote:
On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:35:35 -0400, "Steve wrote:

snipWhy should they. The banks pay taxes which support the police
departments as well. The problem is that the illegals and squatters have
been given free reign by the democrats and the liberals. Or didn't you
notice that it is liberal run cities that are saying "come here and find
sanctuary".

snip
=============
From one perspective this is true, however it may be that you are
missing the bigger picture, specifically *WHY* are the illegals
hear requesting "sanctuary" in the first place. *This is a
relatively new phenomena [c.1980?], especially on this scale.

My Spanish is not good, but in talking to several of these
undocumented workers with the help of a relative that is fluent,
to a person they don't *WANT* to be here. *Consider that it is
expensive and dangerous to make the trip in the first place,
second it involves long separations from your immediate and
extended family, and third, the environment, food, laws, etc. are
strange and the weather cold.

Why then are they here?

While this is not true in every case, the Mexicans, especially
the rural Mexicans, were forced off their small farms by the
ultra cheap corn sold by the international grain trading
companies. *Many of the urban Mexicans were small shopkeepers put
out of business by Wal-Mart. *In both cases it was immigrate to
the USA and find what work you can or starve along with your
family. *Thus most of the Mexican migration is part of the
undocumented and externalized [to the public] cost of NAFTA.

In the case of the undocumented immigrants from Latin American
countries south of Mexico, in many cases it was fear for their
life at the hands of governmental or land-owner "death squads,"
seizure of their small land holdings by the multi-nationals and
"latafundio" [huge low productive estates] land owners, with a
significant number pushed off their lands because of the ultra
cheap subsidized corn and other crops, and many of the urban
dwellers, again displaced by Wal-Mart or their trade was
destroyed when their customers were pauperized. *

The immigration from sub-Mexican Latin America is due to two
overlapping causes. *(1) Starvation -- because of the
lack/elimination of any gainful employment. *This is yet more of
the "externalized" NAFTA costs the public pays while the
trans-nationals reap the profits, and (2) Fear of being murdered
as a "terrorist" as a result of anti-communist crusades
championed by US companies such as ITT, Chiquita, United Fruit,
etc. when the local host countries began to demand that they pay
reasonable taxes on the land they owned and the profits they
made, e.g. Guatemala, El Salvador, Columbia, Nicaragua, Chile,
Peru, etc. *

Make no mistake about it -- these [and several other] countries
engaged in genocide on a massive scale, with large numbers of
their Indian populations "liquidated" because they were perceived
to be "troublemakers" because they complained about being kicked
off their ancestral lands, their timber being clear cut, or being
poisoned by the drilling, mining, etc. all with no royalties
payments. *Where the indigenous population was extinct, large
numbers of the lower class were "liquidated," for example
Argentina.

FWIW -- In most cases, the farmers and farm laborers forced from
their countries tend to be of Indian rather than Spanish descent,
and may speak limited Spanish.

Therefore, the problem, when analyzed in depth, is that the
"illegals" are here, not because the want to be here, but because
they were forced from their home country by reasons of
"predatory/exploitative economics" and/or "state sponsored [or at
least condoned] terrorism," largely due to *EXTERNAL forces over
which they have no control, many of which unfortunately appear to
originate in the US from US domiciled trans-national
corporations.

Frankly, it appears that supplying Subcomandante Insurgente
Marcos in Chiapias with 1,000 AKs and ample ammunition will do
far more to correct the immigration problem, by eliminating the
root causes, than 100 times the same amount of money spent on a
border fence (to be constructed with undocumented workers).http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-...andante_Marcos

Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

Good discussion...and accurate.

TMT

Hawke wrote:

Which compels you to add your .02 even though no one wants to hear it.


Ditto


--
aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists

Add this line to your news proxy nfilter.dat file
* drop Path:*aioe.org!not-for-mail to drop all aioe.org traffic.

http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

"Ignoramus25365" wrote in message
...
I think that I have seen this once before a long time ago.

I hope that such things would not become too prevalent and will remain
isolated. Hopefully the capitalist economy would realign itself
quickly.

i

Well, it's not going to work itself out all by itself. Without a lot of
government intervention this will become a disaster. If the government does
the right things this can be managed and the country can overcome the
idiotic mistakes that were made over the last few years. It remains to be
seen if they do what is needed. It is looking like Henry Paulson, treasury
secretary, doesn't want to go out looking like a fool so he's trying to
avoid a complete meltdown. He may do a good job and turn this around pretty
quickly. Unlike Bush he's smart and competent. But this whole mess is all
the result of following republican idealists who believe that regulation of
business is a sin. If the government had been overseeing the mortgage and
banking systems like it should have this wouldn't have happened. But if you
let business do whatever it wants this is what you get. Be prepared to see a
return to heavy regulation of business after Bush has left for the funny
farm.

Hawke




On 2008-03-19, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.

And more is to come as the Republican recession deepens....

TMT

Foreclosed Homes: A Local Blight By KRISTIN KLOBERDANZ/MODESTO
Tue Mar 18

The peach-colored house in a modest subdivision near downtown Modesto,
Calif., used to be someone's dream home. But it stands out in a row of
similarly hued homes where many have a "For Sale" sign planted in
their front yards. The two-story appears battered: its address has
been scratched on a front panel and weeds choke what may once have
been a manicured lawn. And then there is the overwhelming stench of
human waste and stale beer. There has been no electricity and no
running water since the bank repossessed it months ago. Still, at
least three young men have been squatting here since January. The
dream home has become a nightmare.


This horror is not an uncommon sight in the Northern San Joaquin
Valley, where foreclosure rates are among the highest in the nation,
and vacant properties - so tempting to vagrants - flourish.


From a fire-gutted shell across from a pretty park on the north side
of town to a mangy wreck near the airport where a collection of cats
and dogs were found chained together in the yard, abandoned residences
are putting a blight on all types of neighborhoods. "We get about six
to ten calls a day on vacant homes," says police officer John McGill,
who stresses that this isn't just a problem in the poorer parts of
town.


Transients often move in, steal the power, tear apart the walls and
floorboards in search of valuable copper wires and piping and set
fires to cook drugs or keep warm. The police struggle to keep the
damage under control; but with no owner around to claim a trespass
violation on a repossessed home, it's difficult for them to make
arrests. All they can do is tell the squatters to leave, board up the
house and ship off a note to the bank that now owns the property.
"It's a victimless crime," says Bert Lippert, a bit sarcastically.


Lippert, along with police officers McGill and Amy Bublak, make up the
city's health unit, which takes care of vacant home problems.
Burglaries are up 26% in Modesto since a year ago, and the officers
say this has to do with the relentless assaults on foreclosed homes.
"We're seeing a shift in crimes," Bublak says, noting that people used
to just steal property from the outside. Now, in addition to
vandalizing the property, stripping its bones and using the yard as a
dumping ground, thieves have zeroed in on the homes' utilities. "Forty
percent of foreclosed homes in Modesto get their power stolen," says
the Modesto Irrigation District's Louis Maceira,who can often be found
locking or removing meters from these homes.


Just recently, this quiet, agricultural town of 200,000 was in a boom
period. House prices shot up in the early 2000s, and Modesto became a
bedroom community for the Bay area. But then the subprime mortgage
crisis hit hard: in February alone, Stanislaus County had 1,630
foreclosure filings, third highest in the nation. The physical toll it
is taking on this hub nestled amid the almond groves is staggering.
Huge, dusty stretches of subdivision developments lay untouched or
partially built as developers run out of money.


The 300-bed homeless shelter is now at capacity, and the local Humane
Society is swollen with pets that were left behind in homes when their
owners disappeared. Day laborers and contractors alike are having
trouble finding work. "This is a problem that's affecting the whole
community," Lippert says.


There are some glimmers of hope on the horizon. Charities like Habitat
for Humanity are taking advantage of the cheap home prices and labor
to fix up abandoned properties for underprivileged families. The
strangely upbeat Repo Home Tour bus is about to launch a regular
Saturday showing of vacant houses in an effort to get them sold
quickly. And the city, lenders and financial counselors are joining
forces to help residents prevent foreclosure. In fact, less than a
mile away from the peach-colored home, close to 1,000 people recently
gathered for the city's first free No Homeowner Left Behind seminar,
sponsored in part by the city and the local newspaper, the Modesto
Bee. Worried residents gathered to spend their Saturday talking to
lenders about how they can avoid losing their own homes. "I'm stressed
and in turmoil and have butterflies in my stomach," says P.J. Scruggs,
who says she is two months behind in paying her mortgage. She is
afraid she will lose the home that has been in her family for 35
years. "It's scary - this is just too rampant in the Valley."


If they need a cautionary nightmare, they can walk by the peach-
colored house. Just beyond the front door, a toilet has exploded into
the foyer and a thick sludge of feces seeps across the tiles and into
the living room. Beer bottles, wine boxes, cigarette cartons, condom
wrappers, dirty clothes and dog chow pile up on the soggy carpeting.
Gang tags and drug-addled poetry splash the walls in red, gold and
black spray paint. The decimated kitchen counters sag beneath jugs of
curdled milk and rot-encrusted dishes. Scratched in the entrance hall
is a fitting salutation: "Welcome to Hell." View this article on
Time.com

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.


See what I mean? Another off topic thread to stir up trouble.

Which compels you to add your .02 even though no one wants to hear it.

Hawke

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Mar 19, 6:27 pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote:
On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:35:35 -0400, "Steve wrote:

snipWhy should they. The banks pay taxes which support the police
departments as well. The problem is that the illegals and squatters have
been given free reign by the democrats and the liberals. Or didn't you
notice that it is liberal run cities that are saying "come here and find
sanctuary".

snip
=============
From one perspective this is true, however it may be that you are
missing the bigger picture, specifically *WHY* are the illegals
hear requesting "sanctuary" in the first place. This is a
relatively new phenomena [c.1980?], especially on this scale.

My Spanish is not good, but in talking to several of these
undocumented workers with the help of a relative that is fluent,
to a person they don't *WANT* to be here. Consider that it is
expensive and dangerous to make the trip in the first place,
second it involves long separations from your immediate and
extended family, and third, the environment, food, laws, etc. are
strange and the weather cold.

Why then are they here?

While this is not true in every case, the Mexicans, especially
the rural Mexicans, were forced off their small farms by the
ultra cheap corn sold by the international grain trading
companies. Many of the urban Mexicans were small shopkeepers put
out of business by Wal-Mart. In both cases it was immigrate to
the USA and find what work you can or starve along with your
family. Thus most of the Mexican migration is part of the
undocumented and externalized [to the public] cost of NAFTA.

In the case of the undocumented immigrants from Latin American
countries south of Mexico, in many cases it was fear for their
life at the hands of governmental or land-owner "death squads,"
seizure of their small land holdings by the multi-nationals and
"latafundio" [huge low productive estates] land owners, with a
significant number pushed off their lands because of the ultra
cheap subsidized corn and other crops, and many of the urban
dwellers, again displaced by Wal-Mart or their trade was
destroyed when their customers were pauperized.

The immigration from sub-Mexican Latin America is due to two
overlapping causes. (1) Starvation -- because of the
lack/elimination of any gainful employment. This is yet more of
the "externalized" NAFTA costs the public pays while the
trans-nationals reap the profits, and (2) Fear of being murdered
as a "terrorist" as a result of anti-communist crusades
championed by US companies such as ITT, Chiquita, United Fruit,
etc. when the local host countries began to demand that they pay
reasonable taxes on the land they owned and the profits they
made, e.g. Guatemala, El Salvador, Columbia, Nicaragua, Chile,
Peru, etc.

Make no mistake about it -- these [and several other] countries
engaged in genocide on a massive scale, with large numbers of
their Indian populations "liquidated" because they were perceived
to be "troublemakers" because they complained about being kicked
off their ancestral lands, their timber being clear cut, or being
poisoned by the drilling, mining, etc. all with no royalties
payments. Where the indigenous population was extinct, large
numbers of the lower class were "liquidated," for example
Argentina.

FWIW -- In most cases, the farmers and farm laborers forced from
their countries tend to be of Indian rather than Spanish descent,
and may speak limited Spanish.

Therefore, the problem, when analyzed in depth, is that the
"illegals" are here, not because the want to be here, but because
they were forced from their home country by reasons of
"predatory/exploitative economics" and/or "state sponsored [or at
least condoned] terrorism," largely due to *EXTERNAL forces over
which they have no control, many of which unfortunately appear to
originate in the US from US domiciled trans-national
corporations.

Frankly, it appears that supplying Subcomandante Insurgente
Marcos in Chiapias with 1,000 AKs and ample ammunition will do
far more to correct the immigration problem, by eliminating the
root causes, than 100 times the same amount of money spent on a
border fence (to be constructed with undocumented
workers).http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-...://www.indepen
dence.net/home/chiapas.htmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subcomandante_Marcos

Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

Good discussion...and accurate.

You gotta love free market capitalism. Everybody profits, right?

Hawke

"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
...
Too_Many_Tools wrote:

On Mar 19, 12:54 pm, cavelamb himself wrote:

Wes wrote:

"NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote:

Nothing to doo with republicans! All to do with people who spent MUCH
more than they had coming in. People ,with no commin sense, that can
only
blame themselves for the situation they are in.

Just another version of the run on Nasdaq, Enron, ect. By the time we
commoners find out about the ez money it is sucker time.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

What ever happened to, "You can't cheat an honest man"?

You want something for nothing, you get nothing for something.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I have heard that saying used when referencing President Bush.

TMT


this is looking like Obsessive compulsive disorder...



No, I think it's a case of right wingers not wanting to be subjected to the
well deserved criticism they're hearing about Bush all the time now. It was
a lot different when Bush first started the war and cut taxes. Then they
loved Bush. But now after everyone has turned on him and sees what a ****ty
president and how incompetent he is they don't like it. That's because it's
their fault we're in this mess. They voted for him. They have buyers
remorse. They voted for the dumbest and most incompetent president in our
lives, twice! They don't like hearing or admitting that. I can't blame them.
But instead of joining in on the anti republican side and wanting them gone
they're still defending them or at least attacking all non republicans. They
never learn when it's time to jump ship so they're destined to go down with
it. It's tough being them now we're on the way down. Because they're to
blame for it.

Hawke

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...
On Mar 19, 7:23 am, "NewsGroups" spar@plaus wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message


...

A word of caution....it can happen to your neighborhood.

Nothing to doo with republicans! All to do with people who spent MUCH
more than they had coming in. People ,with no commin sense, that can
only
blame themselves for the situation they are in.

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Wrong.

Banks are the gatekeepers...they have a responsibility to their
creditors to lend money responsibily.

When they make bad loans...and they have made MILLLIONS of bad
loans...it shows that there was no oversight...and that places the
blame squarely upon the Republican Adminstration.

Typical leftist rant !!!

The deregulation of banking that led to this debacle started under
Reagan,
continued under Bush I, accelerated under Clinton, and basically was all
but
abandoned completely under Bush II. Before Reagan, those loans would
have
been illegal, because banks faced an explicit regulation for "prudent
risk
management practices," and against "predatory lending," which included
several of the things these loaners have done recently: Now, it's a
"guideline."

It wasn't Republican or Democrat. It was the Washington Consensus of
economic policy, which, among other things, advocates deregulation of
banking and finance. You really can't lay it on any single
administration.
You CAN lay it on an ill-advised idea that banks would behave prudently,
even when money is hot and competition demands that they make lots of
loans,
just to stay afloat. It was a failure of oversight, fueled by a
sophomoric
ideology.

--
Ed Huntress- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No Ed...it was this Republican Administration.

Check when the housing boom started...2003....which lies squarely in
the Bush years.

And the bust...well it hasn't ended yet, has it?

And who is the President?

TMT

================================================== ==

From today's New York Times:

"So let's go back to the beginning of the boom.

"It really started in 1998, when large numbers of people decided that real
estate, which still hadn't recovered from the early 1990s slump, had
become
a bargain. At the same time, Wall Street was making it easier for buyers
to
get loans. It was transforming the mortgage business from a local one,
centered around banks, to a global one, in which investors from almost
anywhere could pool money to lend.

"The new competition brought down mortgage fees and spurred some useful
innovation. Why, after all, should someone who knows that she's going to
move after just a few years have no choice but to take out a 30-year
fixed-rate mortgage?

"As is often the case with innovations, though, there was soon too much of
a
good thing. Those same global investors, flush with cash from Asia's boom
or
rising oil prices, demanded good returns. Wall Street had an answer:
subprime mortgages."



Which agrees with most of the sober economic analysis you'll see if you
look
around. Not that it doesn't fit with the neocon philosophy, but, first of
all, Bush doesn't know enough about it to have an opinion, or to have had
much to do with it. Krugman is putting much of the whole mess on
Greenspan's
shoulders, and he makes a good case.

Greenspan started it when he lowered interest rates to less than the rate of
inflation. That was a mistake but it was done to humor the White House. Then
Bush basically told business you guys do whatever you want, we're not going
to be watching over your business affairs. We trust you. Between the two it
set the disaster in motion. I can't think of any way to Blame Bill Clinton
for this, but then I'm not a republican.

Hawke

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 18:27:57 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:


Therefore, the problem, when analyzed in depth, is that the
"illegals" are here, not because the want to be here, but because
they were forced from their home country by reasons of
"predatory/exploitative economics" and/or "state sponsored [or at
least condoned] terrorism," largely due to *EXTERNAL forces over
which they have no control, many of which unfortunately appear to
originate in the US from US domiciled trans-national
corporations.

I work with illegals everyday. And to a man (or woman) they came here
because of the money.

They come to Unitos Estatas for the big bucks. They pack together in a
house in large groups, earn serious money and send it back to Mexico
or where ever, in the form of Giros (money orders), to their families
still living there.
When the standard wage in Mexico for example is $5 a day, making
$11.50 per hour pushing a green button, deducting living expenses, and
then sending the rest back to momma and la ninos makes much sense.

Giros are the 2nd or 3rd largest income stream that Mexico has, behind
oil production.

Now they may be here a few years, and then send for the kids because
they find there is far more opportunity in El Norte, in jobs, in free
welfare, free medical and free education.

The Government of Mexico not only publishes and hands out maps and
trip planning in the best ways to sneak into the US, but literature on
the best places and ways to get on the dole.

Many plan on working in the US for 20 yrs, and then going home to
Mexico etc. With a nice nest egg, or even retirement, the money they
bring with them back down south, allows them a very very comfortable
retirement in their home village.

Latinos are not dumb, or hardly stupid. Very industrious people and
hard working. On the other hand, because they are smart..many can and
do take advantage of every perk, entitlement and giveaway that the
Democrats can push their way.

Which is why California for example, has had 85 hospitals and ERs
closed down in the last 9 yrs.

If asked..most will tell you that Mexico is a ******** of corruption
with no jobs or money. So they come north. But they dont consider
themselves immigrants, just temporary workers making enough money for
retirement back home. They admit Mexico etc suck and suck badly..but
they do NOT consider themselves to be new Americans as our ancestors
did.

Want to talk to some George? Id be glad to put them on the phone to
you. Rank and file workers.

Es vertad.

Gunner