Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Machine shop estimating help, please?


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
news

A description of the application and the part, with shop print and
photos, may be seen at
http://users.goldengate.net/~dforeman/potfiller/


"I've been advised that the wrench flats are not desired, so they won't be
there."
Can you (fancy) knurl it or internally slot it so it can tightened up? I'm
not sure a strap wrench will work against a polished surface.

-Carl


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"The Kid" does this for a living. He's sleeping on the couch right now,
getting ready for his best friend's bachelor party. I'll have him email an
estimate when he sobers up tomorrow.

Karl


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I'd appreciate a value check from someone who knows what it might cost
to have one part made in a machineshop. Harold? Karl Townsend?

I was asked to do this by my son's mother-in-law, to help out a
customer of hers who is a contractor with a problem. The contractor
Fed-Ex'd me the fixture my part needs to fit. Cosmetics are important
on this one.

She may be expecting this as a freebie for all I know. If so, that's
OK. If she or the contractor does want to compensate me, which I
think will probably be the case, I haven't the slightest idea what
"fair market value" might be for such a job, and I'm sure they have no
idea either. That's where I need a bit of informed help.

My investment in this is maybe an hour of design time and 1.5 hours
of shop time as a guess. Probably a low estimate, but I'll ride it.
Oh, and 3" of 3/4" 303 barstock and shipping of the whole shebang
back to Florida.

Again, whatever they think is fair is OK with me, but they might want
a clue as to what might be fair -- then I'll give 'em a really good
deal.

A description of the application and the part, with shop print and
photos, may be seen at
http://users.goldengate.net/~dforeman/potfiller/

Thanks, guys!
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On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 14:00:46 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

maybe an hour of design time and 1.5 hours
of shop time as a guess. Probably a low estimate, but I'll ride it.
Oh, and 3" of 3/4" 303 barstock and shipping of the whole shebang
back to Florida.

Again, whatever they think is fair is OK with me, but they might want
a clue as to what might be fair -- then I'll give 'em a really good
deal.

A description of the application and the part, with shop print and
photos, may be seen at
http://users.goldengate.net/~dforeman/potfiller/


If one of my regular customers asked me to do this, handed me the
mating parts, material was on hand, didn't require a finished drawing,
it wasn't part of a larger job, and needed it now (meaning I make it
rather than sending it out): $150. Probably not much different if they
could wait a week, but needed a print, in which case I'd do the
drawing and send it out to a shop with a lower hourly rate than mine.

--
Ned Simmons
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Don Foreman wrote:

I'd appreciate a value check from someone who knows what it might cost
to have one part made in a machineshop. Harold? Karl Townsend?

I was asked to do this by my son's mother-in-law, to help out a
customer of hers who is a contractor with a problem. The contractor
Fed-Ex'd me the fixture my part needs to fit. Cosmetics are important
on this one.

She may be expecting this as a freebie for all I know. If so, that's
OK. If she or the contractor does want to compensate me, which I
think will probably be the case, I haven't the slightest idea what
"fair market value" might be for such a job, and I'm sure they have no
idea either. That's where I need a bit of informed help.

My investment in this is maybe an hour of design time and 1.5 hours
of shop time as a guess. Probably a low estimate, but I'll ride it.
Oh, and 3" of 3/4" 303 barstock and shipping of the whole shebang
back to Florida.

Again, whatever they think is fair is OK with me, but they might want
a clue as to what might be fair -- then I'll give 'em a really good
deal.

A description of the application and the part, with shop print and
photos, may be seen at
http://users.goldengate.net/~dforeman/potfiller/

Thanks, guys!

Don't take this too personally, Don, but don't give up your day job. :-)
You actually cadded this? Any jobbing shop machinist worth his salt,
would have made do with the back of an envelope and the dimensions garnered
with the aid of a caliper, mike and thread pitch gage.
Actual machine time would have been under 1/2 hour, and depending of the condition
of the bar stock could have included the final polish. That's assuming a well
setup modern lathe & equipment, not some homeshop SB or it's ilk.
As for tightening, as this would be tightened to a stop, a hole for
a pin wrench drilled underneath would be unobtrusive.
Cost? Varies as to the going hourly rate. Whaddya want?

Mick


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On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:10:20 GMT, "Carl Byrns"
wrote:


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
news

A description of the application and the part, with shop print and
photos, may be seen at
http://users.goldengate.net/~dforeman/potfiller/


"I've been advised that the wrench flats are not desired, so they won't be
there."
Can you (fancy) knurl it or internally slot it so it can tightened up? I'm
not sure a strap wrench will work against a polished surface.

-Carl


That's why I suggested wrench flats. If he doesn't want flats, he sure
as heck won't want a knurl. Perhaps he'd rather have this patch be as
subtle as possible.

There is an internal 10 mm hex socket that can be used to tighten it
and other threads in the stack. Undoing it would be a rather
different problem, because once the first one releases the grip is
gone. Not my problem, and apparently the contractor figures not his
problem either.

If I had to do it, I'd use the hex to get something loose and off. At
that point I could then grab the SS tube with a 5C collet in a collet
block. Every plumber carries a 3/4" 5C collet and a collet block in
his truck, right?
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On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 14:44:23 -0500, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

"The Kid" does this for a living. He's sleeping on the couch right now,
getting ready for his best friend's bachelor party. I'll have him email an
estimate when he sobers up tomorrow.

Karl


Tomorrow will be fine. Thanks, Karl!

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"The Kid" took a quick look on the way out the door. For a good customer,
$60 for a one of and $3 for production quantities. He said they don't take
on a job like this if they aren't already a good customer.

I thought he was low. he said you won't get the job for more.

Just his 2 cents.

Karl


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On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 10:08:45 +1300, Mick wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

I'd appreciate a value check from someone who knows what it might cost
to have one part made in a machineshop. Harold? Karl Townsend?

I was asked to do this by my son's mother-in-law, to help out a
customer of hers who is a contractor with a problem. The contractor
Fed-Ex'd me the fixture my part needs to fit. Cosmetics are important
on this one.

She may be expecting this as a freebie for all I know. If so, that's
OK. If she or the contractor does want to compensate me, which I
think will probably be the case, I haven't the slightest idea what
"fair market value" might be for such a job, and I'm sure they have no
idea either. That's where I need a bit of informed help.

My investment in this is maybe an hour of design time and 1.5 hours
of shop time as a guess. Probably a low estimate, but I'll ride it.
Oh, and 3" of 3/4" 303 barstock and shipping of the whole shebang
back to Florida.

Again, whatever they think is fair is OK with me, but they might want
a clue as to what might be fair -- then I'll give 'em a really good
deal.

A description of the application and the part, with shop print and
photos, may be seen at
http://users.goldengate.net/~dforeman/potfiller/

Thanks, guys!

Don't take this too personally, Don, but don't give up your day job. :-)
You actually cadded this? Any jobbing shop machinist worth his salt,
would have made do with the back of an envelope and the dimensions garnered
with the aid of a caliper, mike and thread pitch gage.
Actual machine time would have been under 1/2 hour, and depending of the condition
of the bar stock could have included the final polish. That's assuming a well
setup modern lathe & equipment, not some homeshop SB or it's ilk.
As for tightening, as this would be tightened to a stop, a hole for
a pin wrench drilled underneath would be unobtrusive.
Cost? Varies as to the going hourly rate. Whaddya want?

Mick


Not taken personally at all! I cadded it mostly because I'm learning
to use the CAD software and it was kinda fun.

I don't have a job, day or otherwise. I'm retired and lovin' it.

I only ask about what a shop might for my own information in
anticipation of the very question you asked: "whaddya want?"

I don't need to be paid at all, but since someone is using it in a
for-profit enterprise it seems fair that I get some compensation. I'd
happily accept a twelvepack of Dixie Voodoo Black Lager -- but the
folks are 2000 miles away so that's not real practical.

Two responses have been $60 and $150. I'll say 50 bux plus return
shipping -- if I'm even asked.
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On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 15:27:49 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

cross posted to AMC for "money player" input..

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 14:00:46 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


I'd appreciate a value check from someone who knows what it might cost
to have one part made in a machineshop. Harold? Karl Townsend?

I was asked to do this by my son's mother-in-law, to help out a
customer of hers who is a contractor with a problem. The contractor
Fed-Ex'd me the fixture my part needs to fit. Cosmetics are important
on this one.

She may be expecting this as a freebie for all I know. If so, that's
OK. If she or the contractor does want to compensate me, which I
think will probably be the case, I haven't the slightest idea what
"fair market value" might be for such a job, and I'm sure they have no
idea either. That's where I need a bit of informed help.

My investment in this is maybe an hour of design time and 1.5 hours
of shop time as a guess. Probably a low estimate, but I'll ride it.
Oh, and 3" of 3/4" 303 barstock and shipping of the whole shebang
back to Florida.

Again, whatever they think is fair is OK with me, but they might want
a clue as to what might be fair -- then I'll give 'em a really good
deal.

A description of the application and the part, with shop print and
photos, may be seen at
http://users.goldengate.net/~dforeman/potfiller/

Thanks, guys!

=============
Good job on supplying the details/information.

I am cross posting to alt.machines.cnc as that group has lots of
"money players" and more than likely have made [or are making]
something close.

Volume will be a consideration for both the machining and stock
costs, and this appears to be a one-off

Roughly comparable rates for machining should be similar to the
shop rates for mechanics and plumbers.
http://autorepair.about.com/cs/gener...l_kbusch03.htm
snip
We have all seen commercials on TV touting the "great vehicle
service" provided by dealer service departments. They know your
vehicle better than anyone else, they use original replacement
parts, etc. etc ... But at what cost is such great service
available? Well, usually at about $75.00 to $95.00 per hour.

In many instances, vehicle repairs can be completed for
substantially lower hourly rates. Many independent garages employ
ASE certified and licensed mechanics. These garages generally
charge about $40.00-$50.00 per hour.
snip
===========
http://www.contractors.com/trade/tip...a_plumber.html
snip
For basic plumbing services, such as leak repair or installing
new fixtures or traps, you'll pay $45 to $65 per hour, plus
parts, if necessary. For weekend or night calls, you can expect
to pay as much as $100 just for the call and then $75 per hour.
Even at these rates it is a good idea to ask what the options are
for repairs and parts, and how to prevent any problems from
recurring.
snip
=============

So it looks like 50$/hr should be reasonable.

Design 1 hr @ 50$/hr = 50$
Machining 1.5 hr. @ 50$/hr = 75$

material
3 inches of 3/4Ø 303 SS = 15$?
[set up /test pieces/shipping?]

glass bead for finish = 15$?

shipping USPS bubble pack = 10$?
--------------------------------------------
total = 165$?

===========
http://www.hobbymetalkits.com/docume...inless.htm4020
Stainless-303 3/4 x RD x 36 34.80 34.80
All prices are in US Dollars Subtotal 34.80
Shipping 9.50
TOTAL 44.30
==============
https://wpb1.webproductionsinc.com/a...namicIndex.asp
Your cart contains:

Quantity Item # Description Unit Price Sub-total
Actions
1 RD:RDS303:00750-303-XXX 3/4" ROUND 303 STAINLESS STEEL
$5.61 $5.61 Remove
Labor
Cut length Material ordered
4" 4.25"
$5.00
Items have had applicable discounts applied, unless
otherwise specified.
Total: $10.61 Tax not included [shipping??]
Estimated total availability: 1 day/s
=================


Wow, that's a thorough analysis! Thanks, Unca George!

Maybe I'll suggest that Pat just fix us a real nice dinner for us next
time she's in town, and she can charge the contractor whatever she
wants. Pat is one superb chef and she knows her wines!


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Pick an "opportunity value" for your time and let it be known. You
might have 2 prices for things you have to buy: total cost (so you
don't loose any $ on it or a 50% mark up.

Retired Friends of mine and I myself have a $20 per hour shop rate for
people we know and about double that for strangers.
At even the $40 we aren't recovering our shop costs and we know it.
The thing is, if you give things away, then they aren't valued anyway.

Note on finish:
I just saw a "How it's made" or such the other day and "they"
apparently finish those faucets with a (vacuum) electro-deposition of
Zirconium!
If you have handled this part with any steel tooling, abrasives that
have been around steel, etc., you may need to passivate the thing so it
doesn't rust. If that finish changes more than the rest of the
fixture, it may not be a happy thing for the contractor.

Pete Stanaitis
------------------



Don Foreman wrote:
I'd appreciate a value check from someone who knows what it might cost
to have one part made in a machineshop. Harold? Karl Townsend?

I was asked to do this by my son's mother-in-law, to help out a
customer of hers who is a contractor with a problem. The contractor
Fed-Ex'd me the fixture my part needs to fit. Cosmetics are important
on this one.

She may be expecting this as a freebie for all I know. If so, that's
OK. If she or the contractor does want to compensate me, which I
think will probably be the case, I haven't the slightest idea what
"fair market value" might be for such a job, and I'm sure they have no
idea either. That's where I need a bit of informed help.

My investment in this is maybe an hour of design time and 1.5 hours
of shop time as a guess. Probably a low estimate, but I'll ride it.
Oh, and 3" of 3/4" 303 barstock and shipping of the whole shebang
back to Florida.

Again, whatever they think is fair is OK with me, but they might want
a clue as to what might be fair -- then I'll give 'em a really good
deal.

A description of the application and the part, with shop print and
photos, may be seen at
http://users.goldengate.net/~dforeman/potfiller/

Thanks, guys!

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On Mar 15, 5:08*pm, Mick wrote:

Actual machine time would have been under 1/2 hour, and depending of the condition
of the bar stock could have included the final polish. That's assuming a well
setup modern lathe & equipment, not some homeshop SB or it's ilk.

...
Mick


Any guess for some home shop SB?
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Retired Friends of mine and I myself have a $20 per hour shop rate for
people we know and about double that for strangers.
At even the $40 we aren't recovering our shop costs and we know it.
The thing is, if you give things away, then they aren't valued anyway.


I saw a sign:

$20 per hour
$40 if you watch
$60 if you help

Setting a cost on these things is difficult. I do not do machine work, but
rather welding. Price can vary a lot. The final call is up to what you
value your work at, the friend/person involved, attitude, what may come back
to you in the future from the job, lots of things.

Steve


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You might also want to consider the consequences of setting a precedent.
If you say $50 is "fair", the next time it may be expected that $50
will still be fair. I don't now how you feel about repeat business, but
you might want to get across whether the $50 is a one-time as-a-favor
price that probably wouldn't be repeated, or is a price that you would
normally charge.

Bob
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On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:01:14 -0500, spaco
wrote:

Pick an "opportunity value" for your time and let it be known. You
might have 2 prices for things you have to buy: total cost (so you
don't loose any $ on it or a 50% mark up.

Retired Friends of mine and I myself have a $20 per hour shop rate for
people we know and about double that for strangers.
At even the $40 we aren't recovering our shop costs and we know it.


That sounds about right. We didn't retire to make money, just try not
to run out before we're done.

The thing is, if you give things away, then they aren't valued anyway.


Often true, definitely more so with strangers.

Note on finish:
I just saw a "How it's made" or such the other day and "they"
apparently finish those faucets with a (vacuum) electro-deposition of
Zirconium!
If you have handled this part with any steel tooling, abrasives that
have been around steel, etc., you may need to passivate the thing so it
doesn't rust. If that finish changes more than the rest of the
fixture, it may not be a happy thing for the contractor.

Pete Stanaitis


Ugh. Well, my zirconium vacuum-depositor is on the fritz this week.
G If he wants that, he can send it somewhere to have it done.

I think passivating is done with HNO3, but I don't know what strength.
Do you?

Actually, the outside has only been touched with tungsten carbide
tooling so perhaps it'll be OK. The barstock was bright shiny and
it's been in my stock rack for at least several years.




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On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 18:59:52 -0800, "SteveB"
wrote:



Retired Friends of mine and I myself have a $20 per hour shop rate for
people we know and about double that for strangers.
At even the $40 we aren't recovering our shop costs and we know it.
The thing is, if you give things away, then they aren't valued anyway.


I saw a sign:

$20 per hour
$40 if you watch
$60 if you help

Setting a cost on these things is difficult. I do not do machine work, but
rather welding. Price can vary a lot. The final call is up to what you
value your work at, the friend/person involved, attitude, what may come back
to you in the future from the job, lots of things.

Steve


Right. We'll talk to Pat and see what she thinks. I really do
appreciate all the RCM help here because I would have overvalued it.
It's a good thing I made my living as an EE rather than as a
machinist! Mick was right when he said "don't quit your day job."

I'd now say not more than $100, less would be OK too. I only have a
couple of hours and maybe 4 bux worth of materials in it. I'm not
looking for more of this, I have plenty of my own projects to pursue.
I'll be doing some welding on Tuesday for a friend of mine. OK,
I'll 'fess up, I'll be doing some re-welding for him. My first
failure in years with MIG (blush!!!). I sure thought it was running
right, but guess not -- unless he has some real Chinese mystery metal
there, or perhaps high-carbon steel. Probably not. I'll know more
when I see the failed part. The job is a broken part on a swivel
chair, Jack is a big guy. I'll TIG it this time so I know damned
well for certain sure that I have a puddle going. He'll offer money
knowing damned well I won't take it. He can buy lunch or something.
Maybe teach me a little this summer at his range. He is quietly
amazing shooting long-range (100 yd) bullseyes with handgun.

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On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:03:23 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

You might also want to consider the consequences of setting a precedent.
If you say $50 is "fair", the next time it may be expected that $50
will still be fair. I don't now how you feel about repeat business, but
you might want to get across whether the $50 is a one-time as-a-favor
price that probably wouldn't be repeated, or is a price that you would
normally charge.

Bob


Good point.

I think this will be a one-shot deal. If there is follow-on then I'll
ask Pat to tell the contractor that I'd like to negotiate terms up
front and let him know that he might want to shop it locally. That
might be a good thing for him to do. There must be machineshops in
the Naples /Ft. Meyers area.
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On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 01:11:29 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

..

I think this will be a one-shot deal. If there is follow-on then I'll
ask Pat to tell the contractor that I'd like to negotiate terms up
front and let him know that he might want to shop it locally. That
might be a good thing for him to do. There must be machineshops in
the Naples /Ft. Meyers area.



A final point:-
Even though you are doing this for the son's mother in law/daughter in law's
mother (Wife in law?????) The one on the end of the gaff is an unrelated
commercial contractor that screwed up an expensive job. They don't need any
favours, they need to pay the going rate. Just because you enjoyed doing the
work isn't a reason for you and her to make them pay for getting them out of a
hole.

Regards
Mark Rand
RTFM
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Don Foreman wrote:
On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 18:59:52 -0800, "SteveB"


The final call is up to what you
value your work at, the friend/person involved, attitude, what may come back
to you in the future from the job, lots of things.

Steve



Right. We'll talk to Pat and see what she thinks.


Another way of looking at things.
There was an interview with Todd Rundgren years ago and he was asked
what he charged to produce a record. His answer was "$30,000 or
nothing". Meaning if he did the production work for a close friend it
was free- but there was no sliding scale for level of aquaintance.
I was in the R&D business for years, and somethimes it seemed that I had
"Kevin's free electronic repair/design/fabrication service" tattooed on
my forehead.
I did two things that made my life a lot easier.

For repair:

I asked the prospective repairee to call the manufacturer and get a
schematic, saying I would work on the unit as soon as they got
documentation. How many times did they make the call? Zero. In (mumble)
years since I started doing this, I _never_ had anyone go to the trouble
of calling the manufacturer- obviously they didn't think it was worth
their time, but felt I should spend the time to fix it for free anyway.

For design/fabrication:

They got a list of questions and/or a regular quote, just as I would do
at work. That cut 95% of the dreamers, and at least I didn't lose much
on the rest. If it was a friend or neighbor, I just built it and handed
it to them. Didn't charge for parts, it was a gift.

Time is limited. I am sorry to say that there are people who will take
advantage of yours (not that I think that this is the case in your
son/MIL instance). There are many more people who simply have no idea
what it takes to do something.

I still do a lot of (free) stuff. But having the free/business dividing
line helps me decide what to do and what to regretfully decline.


Kevin Gallimore




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axolotl wrote:
....
I was in the R&D business for years, and somethimes it seemed that I had
"Kevin's free electronic repair/design/fabrication service" tattooed on
my forehead.
I did two things that made my life a lot easier.
...


Along this line (but drifting from Don's situation):

I have a step-son & DIL that pretty much never do anything themselves.
Hire-it-out, basically. Occasionally, they will pitch an idea to me, as
a sanity check, but also hinting at my doing it. My reply is that I
would be glad to help them do it, show them how. This isn't just being
evasive, as I think that they should do more. I hardly ever get taken
up on it.

Bob


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On Mar 16, 1:32*pm, Don Foreman wrote:

If they wanna be secretive, they can work alone in their secret lab.
Geez! *I've never stolen an idea in my life and I certainly don't need
to start now. *Most of the time they don't really know what the hell
they want anyway. * *


And the less they know about making it work, the easier it ought to
be.


Back to my secret lab......
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Default Machine shop estimating help, please?

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 10:10:23 +0000, Mark Rand
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 01:11:29 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

.

I think this will be a one-shot deal. If there is follow-on then I'll
ask Pat to tell the contractor that I'd like to negotiate terms up
front and let him know that he might want to shop it locally. That
might be a good thing for him to do. There must be machineshops in
the Naples /Ft. Meyers area.



A final point:-
Even though you are doing this for the son's mother in law/daughter in law's
mother (Wife in law?????) The one on the end of the gaff is an unrelated
commercial contractor that screwed up an expensive job. They don't need any
favours, they need to pay the going rate. Just because you enjoyed doing the
work isn't a reason for you and her to make them pay for getting them out of a
hole.

Regards
Mark Rand
RTFM


That did cross my mind. But this guy may be/probably is a regular and
valued customer of Pat's. If that's so, I'd rather he be grateful for
rather than unhappy about the referral.
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Default Machine shop estimating help, please?

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 11:03:47 -0400, axolotl
wrote:



Time is limited. I am sorry to say that there are people who will take
advantage of yours (not that I think that this is the case in your
son/MIL instance). There are many more people who simply have no idea
what it takes to do something.


Yup. Been there done that, got the teeshirt. I was also a research
puke.

I still do a lot of (free) stuff. But having the free/business dividing
line helps me decide what to do and what to regretfully decline.


I draw a firm line with self-imagined "inventors". I'll bet you do
too. If they want my help they'll have to provide a print, a spec,
and pay full consulting rate. Not one ever has.

When I hear "I can't tell you some of the details", or "I won't reveal
what it does but I'll know when it's right", that's full stop. I
don't want to know their secrets, but I won't work blindfolded either.
If they wanna be secretive, they can work alone in their secret lab.
Geez! I've never stolen an idea in my life and I certainly don't need
to start now. Most of the time they don't really know what the hell
they want anyway.
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Default Machine shop estimating help, please?

Don Foreman wrote:

I don't need to be paid at all, but since someone is using it in a
for-profit enterprise it seems fair that I get some compensation. I'd
happily accept a twelvepack of Dixie Voodoo Black Lager -- but the
folks are 2000 miles away so that's not real practical.


Cash and checks are quite fungible.

Wes
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Default Machine shop estimating help, please?

Don,

I wouldn't want to cost you any business, but if you don't want it could could refer him to http://www.emachineshop.com/ where he can design what he wants online and have it shipped to him. I've never used their services but ran across the site some months back.

Of course this suggestion assumes he knows what he wants; i.e. thread pitch, pipe od/id and material, etc.

Al

=======

Don Foreman wrote:
On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:03:23 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

You might also want to consider the consequences of setting a precedent.
If you say $50 is "fair", the next time it may be expected that $50
will still be fair. I don't now how you feel about repeat business, but
you might want to get across whether the $50 is a one-time as-a-favor
price that probably wouldn't be repeated, or is a price that you would
normally charge.

Bob


Good point.

I think this will be a one-shot deal. If there is follow-on then I'll
ask Pat to tell the contractor that I'd like to negotiate terms up
front and let him know that he might want to shop it locally. That
might be a good thing for him to do. There must be machineshops in
the Naples /Ft. Meyers area.

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