"Jordan" wrote in message
u...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Jordan" wrote in message
u...
Nobody's yet mentioned that there are 2 types of these telescoping bore
gauges. One has a fixed anvil, the other both anvils move. I find the
fixed anvil type better to use. They can be easily adjusted by tapping
the handle on a suitable object, say a toolpost, so that the movable
anvil either gives a smaller reading. Or, by turning it over, the
movable anvil gives a bigger reading. I don't think I'd trust any
measurement taken by locking the gauge while it's in the bore.
A nice old-fashioned spring caliper could be used too.
Jordan

Worst possible way you can use them if you expect a proper reading. Learn
to use them as they should be used. The exact way you suggest doesn't
work is proper. Those made by Starrett, the ones the double telescope
are far better, keeping the forces centered. I wouldn't trust one that
telescopes only on one side.

Harold
I didn't invent it, but state as I was taught by a metalworking teacher.
You're pretty dismissive, but don't say what the grumble is.

Maybe you can get your metal working teacher to spend some time trying to
learn to use them properly instead of passing on **** poor procedures.
That he taught you that method is more a sign of his ineptness than anything
else.

Listeh, pal. I have worked with and have been a machinist since 1957. My
background includes several years in the aero-space industry, plus the vast
majority of them in defense outside the aero-space industry. I ran a
commercial shop for 16 years, subcontracting from the defense industry,
including making tools for the production of guidance systems. Those that
worked around and with me, and there were hundreds, to the man, didn't
hammer on their telescoping gauges. Some did use the single telescoping
types, but they are far more awkward than the double telescoping type. I
concluded that from having used both types in my many years. I own the
double type, by choice. I also know how to use them, and can measure
consistently to .0002". Did I mention I don't hammer on them?

Measuring isn't normally accomplished by hammer and anvil, it is approached
from a perspective of precision, and not left to luck. knocking a
telescoping gauge about is trusting to luck. Using it properly is not.
That's my grumble, and I have more than 50 years of having used them
properly, with rigid QC verifying my results to back my position. I don't
have the problems others complain of. Do the math.

Rather than say yours is the only way, I say there could be more than one
way to skin a cat.

Jordan

Yes, I hear that often, mostly from those that don't have a clue, and won't
be denied their hare brained ideas. They are the type that never learn
from those that have something to offer, and should not be the cause of
wasted time.

Machining and measuring isn't something one accomplishes successfully by
good fortune---it is a skill and art, much like playing a musical
instrument. Many make noise, but few make music. For the most part they
are the musicians that have learned properly. The ones that don't play
their instruments with a hammer, perhaps.

Harold

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:31:25 GMT, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Jordan" wrote in message
.au...
Nobody's yet mentioned that there are 2 types of these telescoping bore
gauges. One has a fixed anvil, the other both anvils move. I find the
fixed anvil type better to use. They can be easily adjusted by tapping
the
handle on a suitable object, say a toolpost, so that the movable anvil
either gives a smaller reading. Or, by turning it over, the movable
anvil
gives a bigger reading. I don't think I'd trust any measurement taken by
locking the gauge while it's in the bore.
A nice old-fashioned spring caliper could be used too.
Jordan

Worst possible way you can use them if you expect a proper reading. Learn
to
use them as they should be used. The exact way you suggest doesn't work
is
proper. Those made by Starrett, the ones the double telescope are far
better, keeping the forces centered. I wouldn't trust one that
telescopes
only on one side.

Harold

My Starrets only telescope on one side.....

Gunner

They used to be offered both ways. Don't know if they still are, but the
double type are far easier to use.

Harold

I didn't invent it, but state as I was taught by a metalworking teacher.
You're pretty dismissive, but don't say what the grumble is.

Maybe you can get your metal working teacher to spend some time trying to
learn to use them properly instead of passing on **** poor procedures.

Rather than say yours is the only way, I say there could be more than one
way to skin a cat.

Yes, I hear that often, mostly from those that don't have a clue

Harold

OK Harold, you have miles more experience and I'm convinced you've done
good and accurate work. But you're still relying on assertion rather
than compelling argument, so I still can't say with confidence which way
is better. My teacher, to give him his due, was all about productivity,
and taught methods that whilst controversial did make sense to me, in
terms of fast results. It's a quick way to make very small adjustments
to a telescopic gauge, lightly tapping (the handle, not the anvil) on a
solid object. The gauges are cheap anyway, and seemed to last well enough.
He also reckoned that an interrupted cut on a lathe can be run at higher
revs than a continuous one, which raised eyebrows. Everyone else says
otherwise, but he had his reasoning. What say you?

Jordan

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
Thermal expansion is a killer when you are aiming for precision.
If you have flood coolant, you will have less problem with this.
Otherwise, the only choice is letting it cool for a *long* time between
rough cut and finish cut.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--


Since I have a one man shop at work, I have a compressed air hose at the
headstock end of my work lathe, and use a high volume/low pressure nozzle to
cool the part down before taking measurements. Cool part, go get a drink of
water, come back and measure. If I am more pressed for time, I will use a
can of high flash-off spray degreaser to chill the part down faster, waiting
after each shot, and checking for temp on the part with the back of my hand,
before measuring. A non-contact laser thermometer can also be used. Another
trick that the air is good for is to mount a flex hose blowing low pressure
regulated air through the headstock bore to keep chips from tumbling around
the end of a boring bar on a through bore, potentially deflecting it in use.
This automatically keeps the part cooler while machining.

RJ

On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 07:08:13 -0500, the renowned "Backlash"
wrote:


"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
Thermal expansion is a killer when you are aiming for precision.
If you have flood coolant, you will have less problem with this.
Otherwise, the only choice is letting it cool for a *long* time between
rough cut and finish cut.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--


Since I have a one man shop at work, I have a compressed air hose at the
headstock end of my work lathe, and use a high volume/low pressure nozzle to
cool the part down before taking measurements. Cool part, go get a drink of
water, come back and measure. If I am more pressed for time, I will use a
can of high flash-off spray degreaser to chill the part down faster, waiting
after each shot, and checking for temp on the part with the back of my hand,
before measuring. A non-contact laser thermometer can also be used.

I would think that would be very difficult--- at least on a specular
surface like freshly machined metal. It will mostly be measuring the
reflection of whatever else it sees. Maybe if you could point the IR
into a cavity on the part. But I'd use a ribbon surface thermocouple.

Another
trick that the air is good for is to mount a flex hose blowing low pressure
regulated air through the headstock bore to keep chips from tumbling around
the end of a boring bar on a through bore, potentially deflecting it in use.
This automatically keeps the part cooler while machining.

RJ



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Sat, 01 Mar 2008 10:07:11 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" quickly quoth:


"Mechanical Magic" wrote in message
...
snip----

Where I disagree: measuring a smallish hole with calipers. To suggest
that +-.005" is to be expected, is leading the inexperienced down the
wrong path. I have tried all my calipers with a .2000" ring, and they
ALL read a smaller diameter, by different amounts. I don't believe a
hole measurement to within .010"

Dave

Grin!

I was trying to avoid an ugly confrontation with those the seem to think
that a caliper, particularly a digital, is the ultimate in precision. I've
had conversations with such individuals, and they rarely will be denied
their opinion. What fools they are. I have used a decent scale
(Starrett C305R) with as much precision as I've achieved with calipers.
I use them only when it clearly does not matter. They're great for checking
the size of raw stock.

Aw, 'Arry, you're just being fussy. Measure with a micrometer, cut
with a hacksaw, grind to size, hammer to fit.

--
An idealist believes the short run doesn't count. A cynic believes
the long run doesn't matter. A realist believes that what is done
or left undone in the short run determines the long run.
-- Sydney J. Harris

On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 07:08:13 -0500, "Backlash"
wrote:


"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
Thermal expansion is a killer when you are aiming for precision.
If you have flood coolant, you will have less problem with this.
Otherwise, the only choice is letting it cool for a *long* time between
rough cut and finish cut.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--


Since I have a one man shop at work, I have a compressed air hose at the
headstock end of my work lathe, and use a high volume/low pressure nozzle to
cool the part down before taking measurements. Cool part, go get a drink of
water, come back and measure. If I am more pressed for time, I will use a
can of high flash-off spray degreaser to chill the part down faster, waiting
after each shot, and checking for temp on the part with the back of my hand,
before measuring. A non-contact laser thermometer can also be used. Another
trick that the air is good for is to mount a flex hose blowing low pressure
regulated air through the headstock bore to keep chips from tumbling around
the end of a boring bar on a through bore, potentially deflecting it in use.
This automatically keeps the part cooler while machining.

RJ

Im reminded of the time I was turning a shaft collar on the lathe, and
using the shaft to check for fit. I slipped the shaft into the collar,
and had the phone ring. Finishing my conversation..I was rather
chagrined to find that the collar, a nice snug slip fit, had cooled
off and had shrunk onto the shaft, requireing a bit of a go at the
hydraulic press to get them apart.

Ive not made THAT particular mistake since.

Other mistakes however....sigh

Gunner

That sparkled something in the brain -

How about a toy like the Eye doctors have for glasses bending.

A bucket of sand that is heated. You can put a pail on a calrod
and have a heat keeping or heat building bath. Plunge in the part
and the sand heats it.

I'd be wondering if the silicon would be absorbed into the hot steel
if really hot stuff was placed within.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Gunner wrote:
On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 07:08:13 -0500, "Backlash"
wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
Thermal expansion is a killer when you are aiming for precision.
If you have flood coolant, you will have less problem with this.
Otherwise, the only choice is letting it cool for a *long* time between
rough cut and finish cut.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--

Since I have a one man shop at work, I have a compressed air hose at the
headstock end of my work lathe, and use a high volume/low pressure nozzle to
cool the part down before taking measurements. Cool part, go get a drink of
water, come back and measure. If I am more pressed for time, I will use a
can of high flash-off spray degreaser to chill the part down faster, waiting
after each shot, and checking for temp on the part with the back of my hand,
before measuring. A non-contact laser thermometer can also be used. Another
trick that the air is good for is to mount a flex hose blowing low pressure
regulated air through the headstock bore to keep chips from tumbling around
the end of a boring bar on a through bore, potentially deflecting it in use.
This automatically keeps the part cooler while machining.

RJ

Im reminded of the time I was turning a shaft collar on the lathe, and
using the shaft to check for fit. I slipped the shaft into the collar,
and had the phone ring. Finishing my conversation..I was rather
chagrined to find that the collar, a nice snug slip fit, had cooled
off and had shrunk onto the shaft, requireing a bit of a go at the
hydraulic press to get them apart.

Ive not made THAT particular mistake since.

Other mistakes however....sigh

Gunner

On 2008-03-01, Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

[ ... ]

Machining and measuring isn't something one accomplishes successfully by
good fortune---it is a skill and art, much like playing a musical
instrument. Many make noise, but few make music. For the most part they
are the musicians that have learned properly. The ones that don't play
their instruments with a hammer, perhaps.

Well ... there *are* musical instruments which *are* properly
played with a hammer of appropriate form.

Among those is something which got its start as a woodworking
tool -- the musical saw. (Yes, they are also sometimes played with a
bow.)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2008-03-01, Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

[ ... ]

My Starrets only telescope on one side.....

[ ... ]

They used to be offered both ways. Don't know if they still are, but the
double type are far easier to use.

Well ... in Catalog No. 29, they are both offered. The
single-arm ones are the No. 229 and the double-arm ones are No. 579.
The price list booklet with that is dated January 5 1998, so it is
rather stale by now. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Jordan" wrote in message
u...
I didn't invent it, but state as I was taught by a metalworking teacher.
You're pretty dismissive, but don't say what the grumble is.

Maybe you can get your metal working teacher to spend some time trying to
learn to use them properly instead of passing on **** poor procedures.

Rather than say yours is the only way, I say there could be more than
one way to skin a cat.

Yes, I hear that often, mostly from those that don't have a clue

Harold

OK Harold, you have miles more experience and I'm convinced you've done
good and accurate work. But you're still relying on assertion rather than
compelling argument, so I still can't say with confidence which way is
better. My teacher, to give him his due, was all about productivity, and
taught methods that whilst controversial did make sense to me, in terms of
fast results. It's a quick way to make very small adjustments to a
telescopic gauge, lightly tapping (the handle, not the anvil) on a solid
object. The gauges are cheap anyway, and seemed to last well enough.

The point is you are not seeking a size that fits the bore-----you are
seeking the bore size. One way give it to you immediately---the other is
hunt and peck. Mind you, if you have success with that method, go with it.
It's just not for me---nor others that make their living with the tools.

He also reckoned that an interrupted cut on a lathe can be run at higher
revs than a continuous one, which raised eyebrows. Everyone else says
otherwise, but he had his reasoning. What say you?

Jordan

What I say is he's right---and I'll embellish his comments with the idea
that if you're machining tough material, such as 304 stainless steel, not
only will it tolerate higher speed than if it was solid, but it will also be
very forgiving of positive rake that is far beyond that which anyone might
imagine. It not only accepts the geometry, but thrives on it. A light
feed is mandatory, as is lubrication, with coolant being a definite bonus.

The interrupted cut provides for a moderate amount of time where the tool
can cool, or in the worst case, simply isn't getting heated for the
interrupt interval. Anything that can be done to diffuse or eliminate heat
under these conditions will pay a benefit of prolonged tool life.

Harold

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2008-03-01, Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

[ ... ]

Machining and measuring isn't something one accomplishes successfully by
good fortune---it is a skill and art, much like playing a musical
instrument. Many make noise, but few make music. For the most part
they
are the musicians that have learned properly. The ones that don't play
their instruments with a hammer, perhaps.

Well ... there *are* musical instruments which *are* properly
played with a hammer of appropriate form.

Indeed----including drums and many stringed instruments (piano, but not a
harpsichord)-------although my mind was leaning more towards a trombone or
saxophone.

Chuckle.

I can see it now.

The bassoon played with a BFH. :-)


Among those is something which got its start as a woodworking
tool -- the musical saw. (Yes, they are also sometimes played with a
bow.)

Or struck with the thumb.

Harold

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2008-03-01, Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

[ ... ]

My Starrets only telescope on one side.....

[ ... ]

They used to be offered both ways. Don't know if they still are, but the
double type are far easier to use.

Well ... in Catalog No. 29, they are both offered. The
single-arm ones are the No. 229 and the double-arm ones are No. 579.
The price list booklet with that is dated January 5 1998, so it is
rather stale by now. :-)


Thanks, DoN. I figured they may still be available in both configurations,
but I haven't explored tools for years. No need. One uses few telescoping
gauges in the process of building a large shop, followed by a house and
garage. A project that appears to have no end! :-)

Harold

He also reckoned that an interrupted cut on a lathe can be run at higher
revs than a continuous one, which raised eyebrows. Everyone else says
otherwise, but he had his reasoning. What say you?

Jordan

What I say is he's right---and I'll embellish his comments with the idea
that if you're machining tough material, such as 304 stainless steel, not
only will it tolerate higher speed than if it was solid, but it will also be
very forgiving of positive rake that is far beyond that which anyone might
imagine. It not only accepts the geometry, but thrives on it. A light
feed is mandatory, as is lubrication, with coolant being a definite bonus.

The interrupted cut provides for a moderate amount of time where the tool
can cool, or in the worst case, simply isn't getting heated for the
interrupt interval. Anything that can be done to diffuse or eliminate heat
under these conditions will pay a benefit of prolonged tool life.

Harold


The teacher mentioned cooler running as the benefit. The advantage with
tough material wasn't mentioned - another one for the books, thanks.

Jordan

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:

Thanks, DoN. I figured they may still be available in both configurations,
but I haven't explored tools for years. No need. One uses few telescoping
gauges in the process of building a large shop, followed by a house and
garage.

Stick to the tape measure and don't worry about the 1/16'ths or the 1/8'ths.
Hell, you can skip the 1/4 ers most of the time also.

Wes

"Ed Huntress" wrote:

It sounds like you'd enjoy a book titled _The Foundations of Mechanical
Accuracy_, by Wayne Moore. You can find it in some big libraries. Your
research librarian probably can order it on an inter-library loan. Also look
for any of the earlier books on accuracy and machine tools by his father,
Richard Moore.


That book never goes cheap on ebay. I've been looking for a personal copy
for many years.

Wes

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:

I also know how to use them, and can measure
consistently to .0002".


Did you notice that measurements tend to run to the undersize or is it just
me?

Wes

On Mar 3, 1:46 am, Wes wrote:
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:


OK, thank you people for the many items of good advice. A summary of
whats been received is (and excuse me if I have left out anything, its
blown out a bit..)

1. I need to learn how to use a telescopic bore gauge properly - FWIW,
the school gauges are the single moving indicator type, ie one anvil
is fixed. To do this, I need to figure out how to keep the job in
registration, with the tools available to me.
2.Tooling may be losing registration during swaps - it is an old
machine, that may be the case.
3.I am getting tool flex in trying to bore to the correct size in one
pass - I have, however, done multiple passses on eac attempt, I was
aware of the possibility of this.
4.I was running the fixed reamer too fast (about 100rpm) - will try
again at a slower speed, see if it makes a difference. It was cutting
oversize.

Not thinking too fast (at least, it feels that way at 55) so the
"easy" way would have been to accept the oversize hole made with the
machine reamer and secure the bearing in place by drilling at right
angles to the bore and tapping for a grub screw. However, I want to
figure out how to do it properly - it can be done, I know that, just
need to spend some more machine time and mental effort to figure out
HOW to do it.

All in all, a most valuable tutorial from the group - thank you, all.

Andrew VK3BFA.

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:

I also know how to use them, and can measure
consistently to .0002".


Did you notice that measurements tend to run to the undersize or is it
just
me?

Wes

It's likely in your converting the feel from the bore to the mic. It
takes a lot of practice to acquire the proper feel. If you have access to
a calibrated ring gauge, you might consider measuring again and again until
you have a sense of what's right, and what's wrong.

Regards my measurements, when it gets down to a couple tenths, I simply
measure a few times and look to see that I'm not exceeding the desired size
by more than a tenth or two. If I can get a reading consistently, I'm
fairly confident that I've achieved a true reading. Helps when you can
verify the reading with a dial bore or a pin (Deltronics, for example).

Harold

wrote in message
...
snip-----
..
3.I am getting tool flex in trying to bore to the correct size in one
pass - I have, however, done multiple passses on eac attempt, I was
aware of the possibility of this.

Any time you have a tight tolerance to hold, there is one thing that is a
constant. If you expect repeatable results, the last thing you do is take
one pass.

Parts that have tight tolerance should NEVER be taken to size until they
have been roughed, both ends. Depending on the part, .03" should remain
for finish cuts. More if the part is complex, or if it has been roughed
with no regard to concentricity. You must insure that you have material
for the finish cuts.

When you attempt to take a close tolerance bore or turn to size, begin by
picking up the surface with the tool, be it a boring head or running a
lathe. At that point, measure the size of the feature in question, and
determine how much material remains to be removed to achieve size. The
idea here is to take the cuts in thirds, leaving the part on size, or
slightly larger, if tolerance is close enough to require polishing for final
sizing and finish.

Take the first cut, then repeat taking half of the remaining material. What
you're trying to do is load the tool identically, so deflection isn't a
factor. Assuming the tool is properly sharpened, and is not dragging
anywhere, when you measure for the final pass, the dial should be reliable,
assuming the machine isn't trashed. You should be able to dial the amount
needed, splitting the last thou if needed.

Needless to say, unless you intend to hone or lap a bore, it should be
carefully taken to size with the boring bar. A dry pass will often remove
a tenth or two, depending on the material being machined. Mild steel often
refuses to cooperate, but leaded steel, or most of the stainless materials
will machine quite well with fine passes, assuming you have not dulled the
tool, or work hardened the material.

Turns are a different matter. They are easily polished with strip abrasive,
so if tolerance is tight, allow a half thou for sizing and finish. Less if
the finish is good. The more you leave, the more difficult it will be to
size the part by polishing, and the greater the chance to create a wonky
part, tapered and/or undercut.

Remember to cool the work before measuring. Polishing will expand the part
well beyond the upper limits, so when it cools you'll find it undersized.

Harold









4.I was running the fixed reamer too fast (about 100rpm) - will try
again at a slower speed, see if it makes a difference. It was cutting
oversize.

Not thinking too fast (at least, it feels that way at 55) so the
"easy" way would have been to accept the oversize hole made with the
machine reamer and secure the bearing in place by drilling at right
angles to the bore and tapping for a grub screw. However, I want to
figure out how to do it properly - it can be done, I know that, just
need to spend some more machine time and mental effort to figure out
HOW to do it.

All in all, a most valuable tutorial from the group - thank you, all.

Andrew VK3BFA.

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:

Thanks, DoN. I figured they may still be available in both
configurations,
but I haven't explored tools for years. No need. One uses few
telescoping
gauges in the process of building a large shop, followed by a house and
garage.

Stick to the tape measure and don't worry about the 1/16'ths or the
1/8'ths.
Hell, you can skip the 1/4 ers most of the time also.

Wes

Chuckle.

You may now understand why the project has gone on for what seems an
eternity.

Ever watched a retired machinist build anything from wood? I have this
nasty habit of measuring, cutting, then fitting. If the block is 1/64" too
long, I make the long trek back to the garage, where I now have my POS
Crapsman radial arm saw, and take the 64th off. Old habits die hard for
me, if at all.

Hey------only six years and we're *already* hanging drywall! :-)

Harold

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

Hey------only six years and we're *already* hanging drywall! :-)


The question now is, are you doing it with the right side up? ;-)



Harold


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

Hey------only six years and we're *already* hanging drywall! :-)


The question now is, are you doing it with the right side up? ;-)



Right side up?

There's a right side? :-)

Harold

On 2008-03-04, Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:

I also know how to use them, and can measure
consistently to .0002".


Did you notice that measurements tend to run to the undersize or is it
just me?

[ ... ]

It's likely in your converting the feel from the bore to the mic. It
takes a lot of practice to acquire the proper feel.
a calibrated ring gauge, you might consider measuring again and again until

[ ... ]

Regards my measurements, when it gets down to a couple tenths, I simply
measure a few times and look to see that I'm not exceeding the desired size
by more than a tenth or two. If I can get a reading consistently, I'm
fairly confident that I've achieved a true reading. Helps when you can
verify the reading with a dial bore or a pin (Deltronics, for example).

Just out of curiosity Harold, were you normally measuring turned
bores or ground ones? I would expect that the smoother surface finish
with a ground bore would result in better and more consistent readings,
since the ridges on a typical turned bore would tend to crush and change
the readings somewhat from trial to trial.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Mar 4, 8:34 pm, "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:
Right side up?

There's a right side? :-)

Harold

Harold,
Well there seems to be a right and wrong side, and orientation.

I have a friend (a EE) that built an addition to his house. Well
actually he is still building after 15 years. The sheetrock screws
have been chalk lined, and measured. The rock edge tape (the one that
hold two sheets together) was precisely cut, AND all the walls have
the rock aligned with the printing of that tape, from bottom to top,
on the right side. Box cutouts are within 1/16" as are all other
edges.

It took 2 days to cut and fit one closet with hardwood flooring.

Yes, there are people that acheive high tolerances using questionable
tools.

The man taught me an incredible lession about trusting numbers and
formulas. Even guesses, with proper bounds are very valuable.

Dave

On Mar 5, 4:27 pm, Mechanical Magic
wrote:
On Mar 4, 8:34 pm, "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:

Right side up?
There's a right side? :-)

Harold

Harold,
Well there seems to be a right and wrong side, and orientation.

I have a friend (a EE) that built an addition to his house. Well
actually he is still building after 15 years. The sheetrock screws
have been chalk lined, and measured. The rock edge tape (the one that
hold two sheets together) was precisely cut, AND all the walls have
the rock aligned with the printing of that tape, from bottom to top,
on the right side. Box cutouts are within 1/16" as are all other
edges.

It took 2 days to cut and fit one closet with hardwood flooring.

Yes, there are people that acheive high tolerances using questionable
tools.

The man taught me an incredible lession about trusting numbers and
formulas. Even guesses, with proper bounds are very valuable.

Dave

I guess the main advantage would be the walls would be square - would
make fitting cupboards/benchtops SO much easier....(apart from the
living in a tent for 15years bit - hes not in the north is he, with
snow and all that cold stuff ?)

Andrew VK3BFA.

PS - the ONLY advantage of building big things with wood is you can
wack it with a big hammer if its a bit out, - that, and the invention
of Silicon caulking guns.....and cornice cement...

I guess the main advantage would be the walls would be square - would
make fitting cupboards/benchtops SO much easier....(apart from the
living in a tent for 15years bit - hes not in the north is he, with
snow and all that cold stuff ?)

Andrew VK3BFA.

Andrew,
San Francisco Bay Area, his main house still standing.
There is no BAD weather here, some rain, last snow was ~1978.

I have a flannel shirt I wear in the "Winter". Sometimes I light off
the flame thrower in the shop. Lets me work in a T shirt on the
lathe. (Never long sleeves there.)
Dave

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

Hey------only six years and we're *already* hanging drywall! :-)


The question now is, are you doing it with the right side up? ;-)


Right side up?

There's a right side? :-)


Sure, and a front and back, too. let me know when you've put up some
of the 12 footers by yourself. They sure make it easy to do a wall. if
you're really good with joint compound, you can even do the end butt
joint without it showing. ;-)





On a serious note: When you do use the joint compound, try not to use
too much, then use a damp sponge to smooth the joints after it has set,
and is almost dry. If you're careful you will not be able to see the
seam after the drywall is painted. Using a sander roughs up the paper
surface, and it will show through the paint. After finishing the joints
I used to thin some good white latex wall paint about 2 to 1 with hot
water, and spray a fine coat. Done properly, it looks just like a
plastered wall or ceiling, and will take any color you want. I had two
friends who were professional plasterers convinced that the walls were
plastered, not drywalled. I had to lift some ceiling tiles to show them
the joints.

It takes less time with the damp sponge, than sanding and touching up
your mistakes. I got the idea years ago, while watching my mom removing
the mold marks from some green pottery she was going to paint. They
scrape off the worst of the excess, then use the damp sponge to finish
off the piece.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

wrote:

PS - the ONLY advantage of building big things with wood is you can
wack it with a big hammer if its a bit out, - that, and the invention
of Silicon caulking guns.....and cornice cement...


Hammer? I built the floor for a 16' * 20' double wide portable shop
building, and discovered that the 2 * 10 lumber was cut with about a
three degree angle and the plywood wasn't square to the frame. I drove
my car up against it, and pushed one corner, till it was in alignment.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On Wed, 05 Mar 2008 01:13:03 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

wrote:

PS - the ONLY advantage of building big things with wood is you can
wack it with a big hammer if its a bit out, - that, and the invention
of Silicon caulking guns.....and cornice cement...


Hammer? I built the floor for a 16' * 20' double wide portable shop
building, and discovered that the 2 * 10 lumber was cut with about a
three degree angle and the plywood wasn't square to the frame. I drove
my car up against it, and pushed one corner, till it was in alignment.
Chap I worked for occasionally as a teenager, fancied himself as a
builder of cottages to sell to the city slickers (the family farm had
a large lake, and this was before there were building inspectors -
probably helped start building inspection) his only tools were a buck
saw and a couple axes. His cottages were described as "rustic".
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Gerald Miller wrote:

On Wed, 05 Mar 2008 01:13:03 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

wrote:

PS - the ONLY advantage of building big things with wood is you can
wack it with a big hammer if its a bit out, - that, and the invention
of Silicon caulking guns.....and cornice cement...


Hammer? I built the floor for a 16' * 20' double wide portable shop
building, and discovered that the 2 * 10 lumber was cut with about a
three degree angle and the plywood wasn't square to the frame. I drove
my car up against it, and pushed one corner, till it was in alignment.

Chap I worked for occasionally as a teenager, fancied himself as a
builder of cottages to sell to the city slickers (the family farm had
a large lake, and this was before there were building inspectors -
probably helped start building inspection) his only tools were a buck
saw and a couple axes. His cottages were described as "rustic".


It sounds like 'Decrepit' would be a better description.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On Wed, 05 Mar 2008 02:04:29 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Gerald Miller wrote:

On Wed, 05 Mar 2008 01:13:03 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

wrote:

PS - the ONLY advantage of building big things with wood is you can
wack it with a big hammer if its a bit out, - that, and the invention
of Silicon caulking guns.....and cornice cement...


Hammer? I built the floor for a 16' * 20' double wide portable shop
building, and discovered that the 2 * 10 lumber was cut with about a
three degree angle and the plywood wasn't square to the frame. I drove
my car up against it, and pushed one corner, till it was in alignment.

Chap I worked for occasionally as a teenager, fancied himself as a
builder of cottages to sell to the city slickers (the family farm had
a large lake, and this was before there were building inspectors -
probably helped start building inspection) his only tools were a buck
saw and a couple axes. His cottages were described as "rustic".


It sounds like 'Decrepit' would be a better description.
Father and his younger brother had determined that it was time to
renovate the sleeping facilities in the family hunting camp, and since
the building was 24 feet square, they settled on three double bunks,
two high, giving room for twelve men. After they started work, they
realized that a level would have been a useful item to have on hand.
The improvised solution was a CI fry pan with a bit of water; which
worked out quite well. One end of a board was nailed in place and
while one carpenter steadied the "level" the other raised or lowered
the other end prior to final attachment.
"How's that George?"
"Right on, just bring it up an inch, inch and a half, or two inches
and it will be perfect."
Must have worked out OK because the sound of twelve snoring men was
something to behold!
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On Wed, 05 Mar 2008 01:09:21 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

Hey------only six years and we're *already* hanging drywall! :-)

The question now is, are you doing it with the right side up? ;-)

Right side up?
There's a right side? :-)

Sure, and a front and back, too. let me know when you've put up some
of the 12 footers by yourself. They sure make it easy to do a wall. if
you're really good with joint compound, you can even do the end butt
joint without it showing. ;-)

The white side is the Front and the chipboard is the Back - you'll
notice the edges on the Front are dished in a few inches from the
edges, so when you finish the seams over the screws they left 1/32 for
the paper tape and mud to come out level.

If you put it on upside down you'll put the edges under tension
stress, and the gypsum will not like that.

Or go for the "Paperless" drywall if you live in a damp climate.
Nothing for the mold spores to eat on either side. But it still has
dished edges, and therefore a "front" and a "back".

Oh, install it with the main seams vertical and sheets tall enough
to go floor to ceiling - that way you don't have to deal with butt
seams between ends of sheets. They aren't dished at the ends, so you
will build up a bump there. If the room has a 10' or 12' ceiling, buy
10' or 12' drywall.

On a serious note: When you do use the joint compound, try not to use
too much, then use a damp sponge to smooth the joints after it has set,
and is almost dry. If you're careful you will not be able to see the
seam after the drywall is painted. Using a sander roughs up the paper
surface, and it will show through the paint. After finishing the joints
I used to thin some good white latex wall paint about 2 to 1 with hot
water, and spray a fine coat. Done properly, it looks just like a
plastered wall or ceiling, and will take any color you want. I had two
friends who were professional plasterers convinced that the walls were
plastered, not drywalled. I had to lift some ceiling tiles to show them
the joints.

It takes less time with the damp sponge, than sanding and touching up
your mistakes. I got the idea years ago, while watching my mom removing
the mold marks from some green pottery she was going to paint. They
scrape off the worst of the excess, then use the damp sponge to finish
off the piece.

And when you get it all done like that, then you hit it with the
Orange Peel Spatter gun (air compressor driven - Ob. Metalworking
content) and some thinned Topping mud - knockdown with a big putty
knife optional if you like the flattened pancakes or "hand tooled
plaster" look. Hides all the little mistakes that would drive you
totally insane trying to get perfect.

And be SURE to prime well with PVA primer before painting - slather
it on heavy, it soaks in and then stops the drywall from soaking in
any more. Because if you don't prime and just try to paint raw
drywall, it won't stop sucking in paint as fast as you can put it on
till about the fourth coat, and maybe the sixth will look good...

-- Bruce --

On 2008-03-05, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Gerald Miller wrote:

[ ... ]

Chap I worked for occasionally as a teenager, fancied himself as a
builder of cottages to sell to the city slickers (the family farm had
a large lake, and this was before there were building inspectors -
probably helped start building inspection) his only tools were a buck
saw and a couple axes. His cottages were described as "rustic".


It sounds like 'Decrepit' would be a better description.

That presumes that it was once "crepit". These sound as though
they never achieved that status. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

P.S. Too lazy to get down my OED to see whether "crepit" was ever
actually a word. :-) A pity that I don't have a computer-based
one.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-03-05, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Gerald Miller wrote:

[ ... ]

Chap I worked for occasionally as a teenager, fancied himself as a
builder of cottages to sell to the city slickers (the family farm had
a large lake, and this was before there were building inspectors -
probably helped start building inspection) his only tools were a buck
saw and a couple axes. His cottages were described as "rustic".


It sounds like 'Decrepit' would be a better description.

That presumes that it was once "crepit". These sound as though
they never achieved that status. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

P.S. Too lazy to get down my OED to see whether "crepit" was ever
actually a word. :-) A pity that I don't have a computer-based
one.


If you do get the urge, look up 'Gruntled', too. One woman i worked
with was always claiming she was disgruntled. I asked her, 'What man in
his right mind would Gruntle a 400 pound slob?' She wasn't happy. ;-)

--
My sig file can beat up your sig file!

Gerald Miller wrote:

Father and his younger brother had determined that it was time to
renovate the sleeping facilities in the family hunting camp, and since
the building was 24 feet square, they settled on three double bunks,
two high, giving room for twelve men. After they started work, they
realized that a level would have been a useful item to have on hand.
The improvised solution was a CI fry pan with a bit of water; which
worked out quite well. One end of a board was nailed in place and
while one carpenter steadied the "level" the other raised or lowered
the other end prior to final attachment.

"How's that George?"

"Right on, just bring it up an inch, inch and a half, or two inches
and it will be perfect."

Must have worked out OK because the sound of twelve snoring men was
something to behold!


Have you ever used a 'Water Level" with the plastic tubing between
the two levels? I love to watch some idiot have one end in the shade,
and the other in the hot sun, then they bitch when the finished floor
isn't level. Lots of fun to watch them chase ball bearings to the same
corner, every time.

As far as the snoring, a pan of warm water held under their hand is
great way to stop them. As long as they are on the bottom bunk. ;-)

Gerry :-)}
London, Canada


--
My sig file can beat up your sig file!

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

On Wed, 05 Mar 2008 01:09:21 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

Hey------only six years and we're *already* hanging drywall! :-)

The question now is, are you doing it with the right side up? ;-)

Right side up?
There's a right side? :-)

Sure, and a front and back, too. let me know when you've put up some
of the 12 footers by yourself. They sure make it easy to do a wall. if
you're really good with joint compound, you can even do the end butt
joint without it showing. ;-)

The white side is the Front and the chipboard is the Back - you'll
notice the edges on the Front are dished in a few inches from the
edges, so when you finish the seams over the screws they left 1/32 for
the paper tape and mud to come out level.

If you put it on upside down you'll put the edges under tension
stress, and the gypsum will not like that.

Or go for the "Paperless" drywall if you live in a damp climate.
Nothing for the mold spores to eat on either side. But it still has
dished edges, and therefore a "front" and a "back".

Oh, install it with the main seams vertical and sheets tall enough
to go floor to ceiling - that way you don't have to deal with butt
seams between ends of sheets. They aren't dished at the ends, so you
will build up a bump there. If the room has a 10' or 12' ceiling, buy
10' or 12' drywall.

On a serious note: When you do use the joint compound, try not to use
too much, then use a damp sponge to smooth the joints after it has set,
and is almost dry. If you're careful you will not be able to see the
seam after the drywall is painted. Using a sander roughs up the paper
surface, and it will show through the paint. After finishing the joints
I used to thin some good white latex wall paint about 2 to 1 with hot
water, and spray a fine coat. Done properly, it looks just like a
plastered wall or ceiling, and will take any color you want. I had two
friends who were professional plasterers convinced that the walls were
plastered, not drywalled. I had to lift some ceiling tiles to show them
the joints.

It takes less time with the damp sponge, than sanding and touching up
your mistakes. I got the idea years ago, while watching my mom removing
the mold marks from some green pottery she was going to paint. They
scrape off the worst of the excess, then use the damp sponge to finish
off the piece.

And when you get it all done like that, then you hit it with the
Orange Peel Spatter gun (air compressor driven - Ob. Metalworking
content) and some thinned Topping mud - knockdown with a big putty
knife optional if you like the flattened pancakes or "hand tooled
plaster" look. Hides all the little mistakes that would drive you
totally insane trying to get perfect.

And be SURE to prime well with PVA primer before painting - slather
it on heavy, it soaks in and then stops the drywall from soaking in
any more. Because if you don't prime and just try to paint raw
drywall, it won't stop sucking in paint as fast as you can put it on
till about the fourth coat, and maybe the sixth will look good...

-- Bruce --

I ran it horizontal because it was going up over 123 year old hand
hewn studs. It was easier to shim, and get a straight wall. That left me
with two seams, one horizontal, the other vertical in a 24 foot by 8
foot wall. You couldn't find the seams when I finished, but it was the
only job I did that required drilling pilot holes for the drywall
screws.


--
My sig file can beat up your sig file!

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
snip----).

Just out of curiosity Harold, were you normally measuring turned
bores or ground ones? I would expect that the smoother surface finish
with a ground bore would result in better and more consistent readings,
since the ridges on a typical turned bore would tend to crush and change
the readings somewhat from trial to trial.


Bored, all. My grinding years were in a shop that had any and every
conceivable type of gauging required for the work at hand. All of the
close tolerance stuff with telescoping gauges has been on the lathe or mill.

When you work to tight tolerance, one of the requirements is to insure that
surface finish is in keeping with the tolerance. Not only for measuring,
but for specifications. You are not permitted a rough finish for close
tolerance work.

Luckily, the vast majority of such work that I encountered was in stainless,
and aside from some 17-4 PH, most of it 303 S. Quite a bit in aluminum,
too. 303S is a wonderful material to work when you understand how to grind
proper tools. Dead easy to take skim cuts without screwing up the finish,
very unlike mild steel. With a sharp tool, a tenth can be taken with
success. The "chip" comes off in irregular bits of fur---removing the odd
high as it is encountered. Needless to say, when I'm that close, unless
it's a bore, the finish is accomplished with polishing cloth, not a tool.
It's far more reliable, and leaves a nicer finish.

I agree, if the finish is questionable, you'd struggle with flaky readings,
especially if you're ham handed when locking the telescoping gauges. As
I've said, using them is an art---something that must be developed.

Harold

"Mechanical Magic" wrote in message
...
On Mar 4, 8:34 pm, "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:
Right side up?

There's a right side? :-)

Harold

Harold,
Well there seems to be a right and wrong side, and orientation.

I have a friend (a EE) that built an addition to his house. Well
actually he is still building after 15 years. The sheetrock screws
have been chalk lined, and measured. The rock edge tape (the one that
hold two sheets together) was precisely cut, AND all the walls have
the rock aligned with the printing of that tape, from bottom to top,
on the right side. Box cutouts are within 1/16" as are all other
edges.

It took 2 days to cut and fit one closet with hardwood flooring.

Yes, there are people that acheive high tolerances using questionable
tools.

The man taught me an incredible lession about trusting numbers and
formulas. Even guesses, with proper bounds are very valuable.

Dave


Some of my screw lines are chalked, but a straight edge has sufficed in most
cases. No way would I measure the screw locations, though. When faced
with two cases of screws, (16,000 of them) you have to come up with ways to
save some time. Many of the runs (4') have more than 7, some as many as
9. I'm well within code, and no nails have been used. Nothing wrong
with measuring center distance if you don't mind spending the time. A story
poll could make it quite fast, actually.

Part of the big slowdown is the huge amount of board I have to glue instead
of screw. It requires erecting restraints that hold the board while the
foam cures. Lots of plywood, too, for walls that will get carpeted.
We're doing that right now. Slow business, that. Some walls are 10' tall
where the plywood goes.

On the subject of working closely. With rare exception, my electrical
boxes have 1/16" clearance. I cut them undersize, then hand fit them on
location. Occasionally I screw up and don't leave enough meat to clean up.
All of my walls were erected with a plum bob, never a level. A level is a
miserable tool if you're looking for high precision (talking about typical
wood working levels, certainly not machinist levels). that has paid
dividends now that we're hanging board.

Harold

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
news snip------

Oh, install it with the main seams vertical and sheets tall enough
to go floor to ceiling - that way you don't have to deal with butt
seams between ends of sheets. They aren't dished at the ends, so you
will build up a bump there.

I made that decision long ago. All of the interior sides of the exterior
walls are getting glued in place (foam adhesive). There will be no butt
joints at all aside from ceilings, or walls that are longer than 12'.

If the room has a 10' or 12' ceiling, buy
10' or 12' drywall.

I went you one better. I bought 8', 9', 10' & 12'. I also had it stocked.
I paid one hell of a price for that, but I'm 68 and not a strong person.
Besides, it just me and my wife doing the work, and I'm pretty sure that
neither of us could get too interested in hauling 9,000 square feet of board
into the house and garage. It took a crew of two guys about two hours to
unload the entire lot. Amazing what the proper equipment can do to get a
job done in a timely fashion. They hardly worked up a sweat, even when
hauling 46 sheets of 5/8" 8' board to the basement, two at a time. Tough
young guys, and loaded with manners. Very unusual, I'd say.


On a serious note: When you do use the joint compound, try not to use
too much,
snip balance of great advice---

Some of my childhood buddies (brothers of various ages) have run a drywall
business since the early 60's. One of them is going to do the finishing.
They're about 350 miles away, so we'll put him up for a week and enjoy a
great visit in the bargain.

I don't want it to look like I did the work, if you get my drift. I can
hang the board, that's not a problem, just time consuming.

And when you get it all done like that, then you hit it with the
Orange Peel Spatter gun (air compressor driven - Ob. Metalworking
content) and some thinned Topping mud - knockdown with a big putty
knife optional if you like the flattened pancakes or "hand tooled
plaster" look. Hides all the little mistakes that would drive you
totally insane trying to get perfect.

None of that for us. I want a paint grade job, which is what he says I'll
get.


And be SURE to prime well with PVA primer before painting - slather
it on heavy, it soaks in and then stops the drywall from soaking in
any more. Because if you don't prime and just try to paint raw
drywall, it won't stop sucking in paint as fast as you can put it on
till about the fourth coat, and maybe the sixth will look good...

Thanks for that. I fully intend to use the proper primer, especially
considering our location. We're quite damp here, and the paint is the vapor
barrier. I did that for the shop, which turned out great. Second coat of
paint is flawless, aside from the lousy job I did on the finishing.
Finisher abandoned the job in the middle, after getting a little advance
money. Left some of his tools behind, so the loss was small. ****ed me
off, though. I am not a drywall finisher, and prefer to not learn. :-)

Harold