Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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can anyone tell me that what is fludity in cast iron???should it be
more or less in c.i??
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wrote in message
...
can anyone tell me that what is fludity in cast iron???should it be
more or less in c.i??


Do you want a definition of "fluidity" or a figure for CI?
More or less that *what*? Steel? Pure iron?

Try Google:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_iron

Specifically - what did your teacher ask for?

--
Jeff R.



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"Jeff R." wrote in message
u...

wrote in message
...
can anyone tell me that what is fludity in cast iron???should it be
more or less in c.i??


Do you want a definition of "fluidity" or a figure for CI?
More or less that *what*? Steel? Pure iron?

Try Google:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast_iron

Specifically - what did your teacher ask for?

--
Jeff R.


This is the time of year for that, isn't it?

Happens other times, but seems to be more often just before spring break.

Or I'm seeing things.

Mike


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On Feb 24, 4:54 am, wrote:
can anyone tell me that what is fludity in cast iron???should it be
more or less in c.i??


Isn't being "cast" meaning it is solid? So, there is no fluidity. Must
be trick question on a final exam!

Paul
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On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 13:03:20 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Feb 24, 4:54 am, wrote:
can anyone tell me that what is fludity in cast iron???should it be
more or less in c.i??


Isn't being "cast" meaning it is solid? So, there is no fluidity. Must
be trick question on a final exam!

Paul



Glass is solid, yet its considered a "slow liquid"

Maybe why all those old lathes wont hold tolerance anymore. The cast
iron has flowed a bit.

G

Gunner


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"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 13:03:20 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Feb 24, 4:54 am, wrote:
can anyone tell me that what is fludity in cast iron???should it be
more or less in c.i??


Isn't being "cast" meaning it is solid? So, there is no fluidity. Must
be trick question on a final exam!

Paul



Glass is solid, yet its considered a "slow liquid"

Maybe why all those old lathes wont hold tolerance anymore. The cast
iron has flowed a bit.

G

Gunner


I realize you're joking, but the creep properties of cast iron, combined
with the structural design of a lathe, doesn't lend itself to significant
distortions from "flow." Now, if the bed of a lathe is under stress from
being poorly aligned over a period of years or decades, that might be
different.

--
Ed Huntress


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"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 13:03:20 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Feb 24, 4:54 am, wrote:
can anyone tell me that what is fludity in cast iron???should it be
more or less in c.i??

Isn't being "cast" meaning it is solid? So, there is no fluidity. Must
be trick question on a final exam!

Paul



Glass is solid, yet its considered a "slow liquid"


this is incorrect. glass is classified as an amorphous solid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous

Maybe why all those old lathes wont hold tolerance anymore. The cast
iron has flowed a bit.

G

Gunner


regards,
charlie
http://glassartists.org/chaniarts


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"charlie" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 13:03:20 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Feb 24, 4:54 am, wrote:
can anyone tell me that what is fludity in cast iron???should it be
more or less in c.i??

Isn't being "cast" meaning it is solid? So, there is no fluidity. Must
be trick question on a final exam!

Paul


Glass is solid, yet its considered a "slow liquid"


this is incorrect. glass is classified as an amorphous solid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous

Maybe why all those old lathes wont hold tolerance anymore. The cast
iron has flowed a bit.

G

Gunner


regards,
charlie
http://glassartists.org/chaniarts


There's some truth in both statements, Charlie. Amorphous solids --
non-crystalline solids -- have no distinct melting point. The definition of
the "glass-transition" temperature, which is arbitrarily considered the
temperature at which an amorphous material passes from solid to liquid, is
just a viscosity number grabbed out of thin air.

So, to explain the behavior of glassy, or amorphous solids, teachers have
often described glass, for example, as a "superliquid." The term has no
precise meaning. It's just a handy description.

There are some 250-year-old windows in one of my family's houses that make a
strong case that glass is liquid. They look like wavy gravy at their
bottoms, and it's not a result of being blown as cylinders and then cut and
flattened (which is, of course, the way they were made). They all get wavy
at the same point, on the bottom side. You could say that they're just
especially subject to creep, if you think of them as solid. Or you could say
they're just a very, very viscous liquid.

--
Ed Huntress


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"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"charlie" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 13:03:20 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Feb 24, 4:54 am, wrote:
can anyone tell me that what is fludity in cast iron???should it be
more or less in c.i??

Isn't being "cast" meaning it is solid? So, there is no fluidity. Must
be trick question on a final exam!

Paul


Glass is solid, yet its considered a "slow liquid"


this is incorrect. glass is classified as an amorphous solid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous

Maybe why all those old lathes wont hold tolerance anymore. The cast
iron has flowed a bit.

G

Gunner


regards,
charlie
http://glassartists.org/chaniarts


There's some truth in both statements, Charlie. Amorphous solids --
non-crystalline solids -- have no distinct melting point. The definition
of the "glass-transition" temperature, which is arbitrarily considered the
temperature at which an amorphous material passes from solid to liquid, is
just a viscosity number grabbed out of thin air.


did you read the link? it has nothing to do with the melting point. it has
to do with the formation of crystals and the speed of cooling.

So, to explain the behavior of glassy, or amorphous solids, teachers have
often described glass, for example, as a "superliquid." The term has no
precise meaning. It's just a handy description.


they were wrong.

There are some 250-year-old windows in one of my family's houses that make
a strong case that glass is liquid. They look like wavy gravy at their
bottoms, and it's not a result of being blown as cylinders and then cut
and flattened (which is, of course, the way they were made). They all get
wavy at the same point, on the bottom side. You could say that they're
just especially subject to creep, if you think of them as solid. Or you
could say they're just a very, very viscous liquid.

--
Ed Huntress


that is also incorrect. your wavy windows did not creep. that again is an
old wive's tale. your windows were made that way because the craftsmen of
the time thought they would last longer with the wavy or thicker part down,
or did it because of esthetics in your case as it would look odd to have the
demarkation lines at different points in adjacent windows.

if this were true, then why aren't the glass objects the egyptians made 5000
years ago puddles in a museum about now?

there are articles that measure the creep or thickening of glass, and the
time for this to occur to something you could see is longer than the age of
the earth.

http://www.glasslinks.com/newsinfo/supercooled.htm
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physic...ass/glass.html

"The use of the term "supercooled liquid" to describe glass still persists,
but is considered by many to be an unfortunate misnomer that should be
avoided. In any case, claims that glass panes in old windows have deformed
due to glass flow have never been substantiated. Examples of Roman
glassware and calculations based on measurements of glass visco-properties
indicate that these claims cannot be true. The observed features are more
easily explained as a result of the imperfect methods used to make glass
window panes before the float glass process was invented."

regards,
charlie
http://glassartists.org/chaniarts


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"charlie" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"charlie" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 13:03:20 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Feb 24, 4:54 am, wrote:
can anyone tell me that what is fludity in cast iron???should it be
more or less in c.i??

Isn't being "cast" meaning it is solid? So, there is no fluidity. Must
be trick question on a final exam!

Paul


Glass is solid, yet its considered a "slow liquid"

this is incorrect. glass is classified as an amorphous solid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous

Maybe why all those old lathes wont hold tolerance anymore. The cast
iron has flowed a bit.

G

Gunner

regards,
charlie
http://glassartists.org/chaniarts


There's some truth in both statements, Charlie. Amorphous solids --
non-crystalline solids -- have no distinct melting point. The definition
of the "glass-transition" temperature, which is arbitrarily considered
the temperature at which an amorphous material passes from solid to
liquid, is just a viscosity number grabbed out of thin air.


did you read the link? it has nothing to do with the melting point. it has
to do with the formation of crystals and the speed of cooling.


I didn't read the link before writing, but I have now. It isn't very
helpful. However, the description of glass from the same source says this:

"Glass is generally treated as an amorphous solid rather than a liquid,
though both views can be justified."

It points to a rather detailed university reference, titled "Is Glass Liquid
or Solid?", which concludes:

"There is no clear answer to the question "Is glass solid or liquid?". In
terms of molecular dynamics and thermodynamics it is possible to justify
various different views that it is a highly viscous liquid, an amorphous
solid, or simply that glass is another state of matter which is neither
liquid nor solid. The difference is semantic."

I don't want to get into a ****ing contest over this, but I've written
entire articles about amorphous solids, including both glassy ceramics and
glassy metals, and including the thermodynamic and metastable/kinetic
properties of glass ceramics. If a material is amorphous, it doesn't form
crystals -- that's the definition of "amorphous." But glass, and other
glassy materials, can form crystals under specific conditions.

So the shorthand of calling it a "slow liquid" or a "superliquid" isn't
complete, but it isn't completely wrong, either. As I said, it's a handy
description. If you want to get into the distinctive properties of amorphous
solids with school students you're in for a very dissappointing time. It's
actually quite a complex subject, one that's still evolving.


So, to explain the behavior of glassy, or amorphous solids, teachers have
often described glass, for example, as a "superliquid." The term has no
precise meaning. It's just a handy description.


they were wrong.


As I said, it's a handy description. And if you're going to get into the
expansion and exothermic properties of glass at the supposed "glass
transition temperature," note that even water has a non-linear expansion
property at a critical temperature above crystallization that isn't much
different, physically, from the secondary "transformation" properties of
glass.


There are some 250-year-old windows in one of my family's houses that
make a strong case that glass is liquid. They look like wavy gravy at
their bottoms, and it's not a result of being blown as cylinders and then
cut and flattened (which is, of course, the way they were made). They all
get wavy at the same point, on the bottom side. You could say that
they're just especially subject to creep, if you think of them as solid.
Or you could say they're just a very, very viscous liquid.

--
Ed Huntress


that is also incorrect. your wavy windows did not creep. that again is an
old wive's tale. your windows were made that way because the craftsmen of
the time thought they would last longer with the wavy or thicker part
down, or did it because of esthetics in your case as it would look odd to
have the demarkation lines at different points in adjacent windows.


OK. I've been corrected about that before but I keep forgetting. Old wives's
tales die hard. d8-). Then, my glass-topped dining room table, which had a
hefty planter on it for years and creeped so much that you can see it with
the naked eye.


if this were true, then why aren't the glass objects the egyptians made
5000 years ago puddles in a museum about now?


Because they aren't stressed sufficiently to creep, for the viscosity of the
glass. All glass creeps under load and time. So does steel. So does
concrete. What you're saying is that the stress level for glass to creep in
human-scale quantities of time is higher than the load imposed by the
glass's own weight. That's true of most materials.


there are articles that measure the creep or thickening of glass, and the
time for this to occur to something you could see is longer than the age
of the earth.

http://www.glasslinks.com/newsinfo/supercooled.htm
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physic...ass/glass.html

"The use of the term "supercooled liquid" to describe glass still
persists, but is considered by many to be an unfortunate misnomer that
should be avoided. In any case, claims that glass panes in old windows
have deformed due to glass flow have never been substantiated. Examples
of Roman glassware and calculations based on measurements of glass
visco-properties indicate that these claims cannot be true. The observed
features are more easily explained as a result of the imperfect methods
used to make glass window panes before the float glass process was
invented."


OK. But glassy solids, or amorphous solids, are still just very viscous
liquids with close-order organization that gives them properties different
from a standard liquid. Like Silly Putty, they can shatter, for example. But
physics today describes supercooled liquids as something different. The
physics of amorphous materials is not simple.

Gunner's shorthand description is arguable as a partial explanation.
"Amorphous solid," in thermodynamic terms, is an oxymoron. The implications
of calling glass a "liquid" can be misleading if it's carried too far, to be
sure. But so are most simplifications. That includes calling glass a
"solid."

--
Ed Huntress




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On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:51:28 -0700, "charlie"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 13:03:20 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Feb 24, 4:54 am, wrote:
can anyone tell me that what is fludity in cast iron???should it be
more or less in c.i??

Isn't being "cast" meaning it is solid? So, there is no fluidity. Must
be trick question on a final exam!

Paul


Glass is solid, yet its considered a "slow liquid"


this is incorrect. glass is classified as an amorphous solid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous


Wiki seemed to have missed this...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0809130014.htm


Maybe why all those old lathes wont hold tolerance anymore. The cast
iron has flowed a bit.

G



And you seemed to have missed the G


Gunner


regards,
charlie
http://glassartists.org/chaniarts

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On 26 Feb 2008 12:49:59 -0500, Maxwell Lol wrote:

Gunner writes:

Glass is solid, yet its considered a "slow liquid"


Urban myth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass#B..._antique_glass



You also seemed to have missed the G

Tuesdays are Humor Impaired days?

Gunner
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charlie wrote:
Glass is solid, yet its considered a "slow liquid"

Gunner


this is incorrect. glass is classified as an amorphous solid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous

regards,
charlie


You know thats the trouble with science, they keep changing
things. When I was in school (which was even farther back
than when Gunner was) I'm pretty sure it was considered a
"super cooled liquid" or some such description. :-)
...lew...
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"Lew Hartswick" wrote in message
...
charlie wrote:
Glass is solid, yet its considered a "slow liquid"

Gunner


this is incorrect. glass is classified as an amorphous solid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous

regards,
charlie


You know thats the trouble with science, they keep changing
things. When I was in school (which was even farther back
than when Gunner was) I'm pretty sure it was considered a
"super cooled liquid" or some such description. :-)
...lew...


That was before global warming. Now they realize it's not really
supercooled. ga

--
Ed Huntress


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Ed Huntress wrote:
But glass, and other
glassy materials, can form crystals under specific conditions.


Inquiring minds and all-

How does one make a glass crystal without introducing impurities (and
making it simply glass like)?


Kevin Gallimore


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"axolotl" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
But glass, and other
glassy materials, can form crystals under specific conditions.


Inquiring minds and all-

How does one make a glass crystal without introducing impurities (and
making it simply glass like)?


Kevin Gallimore


'Can't help there, Kevin. Quartz is, of course, chemically identical to
glass, but is crystalline. And practically all glasses contain impurities.

--
Ed Huntress


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On Feb 26, 3:56*pm, "Ed Huntress"


'Can't help there, Kevin. Quartz is, of course, chemically identical to
glass, but is crystalline. And practically all glasses contain impurities.

--
Ed Huntress


Actually quartz can be either crystalline or amorphous.

Dan

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wrote in message
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On Feb 26, 3:56 pm, "Ed Huntress"


'Can't help there, Kevin. Quartz is, of course, chemically identical to
glass, but is crystalline. And practically all glasses contain
impurities.

--
Ed Huntress


Actually quartz can be either crystalline or amorphous.


Dan


Clear, pink, and other colors, too. g

--
Ed Huntress


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Ed Huntress wrote:
"axolotl" wrote in message
...

Ed Huntress wrote:
But glass, and other

glassy materials, can form crystals under specific conditions.

Inquiring minds and all-

How does one make a glass crystal without introducing impurities (and
making it simply glass like)?


Kevin Gallimore


'Can't help there, Kevin. Quartz is, of course, chemically identical to
glass, but is crystalline. And practically all glasses contain impurities.

That's a bit like someone I saw calling inconel stainless steel. While
common glasses are predominately SiO2 it does have significant additions
of other chemicals to give it the required properties and to lower the
working temperature to something acceptable. Citing wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass for some info, although I think it is
wrong with the melting point for SiO2 which is normally given as 1650C.
I do some glassblowing as a hobby and the glass is normally gathered at
about 1050C(1922F) to 1100C(2012F) depending on the glass type, the lead
glass being 24% PbO, by weight I think. The glass used for manual
glassblowing being formulated to give a long working period, whereas
machine made glass typically stiffens much more quickly to suit rapid
turnaround. A very different material to quartz.

--
Ed Huntress



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"David Billington" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"axolotl" wrote in message
...

Ed Huntress wrote:
But glass, and other

glassy materials, can form crystals under specific conditions.

Inquiring minds and all-

How does one make a glass crystal without introducing impurities (and
making it simply glass like)?


Kevin Gallimore


'Can't help there, Kevin. Quartz is, of course, chemically identical to
glass, but is crystalline. And practically all glasses contain
impurities.

That's a bit like someone I saw calling inconel stainless steel. While
common glasses are predominately SiO2 it does have significant additions
of other chemicals to give it the required properties and to lower the
working temperature to something acceptable. Citing wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass for some info, although I think it is
wrong with the melting point for SiO2 which is normally given as 1650C. I
do some glassblowing as a hobby and the glass is normally gathered at
about 1050C(1922F) to 1100C(2012F) depending on the glass type, the lead
glass being 24% PbO, by weight I think. The glass used for manual
glassblowing being formulated to give a long working period, whereas
machine made glass typically stiffens much more quickly to suit rapid
turnaround. A very different material to quartz.


That's certainly true. Except when it's not. g Unlike Inconel, glass is
not a specific alloy. And there certainly are glasses that are pure or
nearly pure silica: fused quartz glass, and fused silica glass, for example.

These are technical glasses that you aren't likely to encounter in your
glassblowing hobby, but they're chemically identical to crystalline quartz.

The term "glass" itself is pretty flexible, as you know. And Kevin's
question about pure silica glass does have some answers. There are products
made from pure quartz, as well as synthetic ones that wind up being pure
silica in the final product.

Concerning melting temperatures, I'm not familiar with the actual numbers,
but watch for confusion to arise over the definition of "melting
temperature" for glass. As I said earlier, it's defined arbitrarily on the
basis of a selected value of viscosity. It may not have much to do with the
working properties with which you're familiar.

--
Ed Huntress


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