Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Lead in solder

I thought the people on this group would be interested int his
article:

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2...21_004346.html

It's about "green" lead-free solder has caused problems. It think the
money quote is this one:

"And if you think this problem is minor, I have been told that just
the cost of changing to lead-free solder stands right now at $280
BILLION and climbing. That cost is borne by all of us."

It even has some metal content...
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Default Lead in solder

This is the part of the article thet blows me away

"Most of these are now assembled using solder joints that have no lead in an
effort to save our groundwater and our health. The fact that the lead has
been generally replaced with silver or bismuth, both of which are actually
greater health risks than lead, well we'll leave that one for Ralph Nader if
he decides not to run for President."

I work in the electronics industry and have been hearing this for a year or
so now.

Carl Boyd

wrote in message
...
I thought the people on this group would be interested int his
article:

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2...21_004346.html

It's about "green" lead-free solder has caused problems. It think the
money quote is this one:

"And if you think this problem is minor, I have been told that just
the cost of changing to lead-free solder stands right now at $280
BILLION and climbing. That cost is borne by all of us."

It even has some metal content...



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Default Lead in solder

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:11:26 -0800 (PST), with neither quill nor
qualm, quickly quoth:

I thought the people on this group would be interested int his
article:

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2...21_004346.html

It's about "green" lead-free solder has caused problems. It think the
money quote is this one:

"And if you think this problem is minor, I have been told that just
the cost of changing to lead-free solder stands right now at $280
BILLION and climbing. That cost is borne by all of us."

It even has some metal content...


I'd like to know where he came up with that $280B figure.

Yeah, "green" can be mighty costly, and sometimes uselessly so. (The
Kyoto Protocol is one of those, with an estimated 0.07 degree C
difference if every country complies.)

---
Every moment is a golden one
for him who has the vision to recognize it as such.
-- Henry Miller
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Default Lead in solder

wrote:

I thought the people on this group would be interested int his
article:

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2...21_004346.html

It's about "green" lead-free solder has caused problems. It think the
money quote is this one:

"And if you think this problem is minor, I have been told that just
the cost of changing to lead-free solder stands right now at $280
BILLION and climbing. That cost is borne by all of us."

It even has some metal content...


I think nearly all the electrical connections in a car are solderless
compression fittings. If they aren't they should be. Done right it
makes a better connection than solder. That means using the appropiate
connector and the tooling that they were designed for. NOT those
idiot "multipurpose" thingos. :-)
...lew...
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Default Lead in solder


"Carl Boyd" quoted from the article: (clip)The fact that the lead has
been generally replaced with silver or bismuth, both of which are actually
greater health risks than lead, (clip)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Right! My silverware is going in the dumpster so I can replace it with less
hazardous leadware.




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Default Lead in solder

Carl Boyd wrote:
This is the part of the article thet blows me away

"The fact
that the lead has been generally replaced with silver or bismuth,
both of which are actually greater health risks than lead, "



That's patently false. Silver and bismuth are nowhere near as harmful as
lead.


_______________________________
** VOTE PICKLES! **
www.pickles-for-president.com

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Default Lead in solder


"Most of these are now assembled using solder joints that have no lead in an
effort to save our groundwater and our health. The fact that the lead has
been generally replaced with silver or bismuth, both of which are actually
greater health risks than lead,



Guess I'll have to do without silverware and Pepto Bismol.

--
Dennis

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Default Lead in solder

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 15:32:10 -0700, Lew Hartswick
wrote:

wrote:

I thought the people on this group would be interested int his
article:

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2...21_004346.html

It's about "green" lead-free solder has caused problems. It think the
money quote is this one:

"And if you think this problem is minor, I have been told that just
the cost of changing to lead-free solder stands right now at $280
BILLION and climbing. That cost is borne by all of us."

It even has some metal content...


I think nearly all the electrical connections in a car are solderless
compression fittings. If they aren't they should be. Done right it
makes a better connection than solder. That means using the appropiate
connector and the tooling that they were designed for. NOT those
idiot "multipurpose" thingos. :-)
...lew...

Virtually NONE of the connections in/on the microprocessors and
associated controllers (think Can-bus) are constructed with crimp
connections. They have ciecuit boards, which are soldered. Leadfre
solder is a total pain in the butt to work with, and ALL devices to be
soldered with lead free NEED to be specially made for lead free
solder. The problems with lead-free solder in electronics assembly are
legion.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

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Default Lead in solder

Naturally the other issues is the semiconductor material itself -
It had/has a trace of a trace amount of lead and had to be out.
Either copper or Aluminum micro wires either as bonding wire (was gold)
to substrate.

The royal pain is right - think BGA balls and have them function with the
exotic alloys needed.

Totally out of control rules and regulations that cost hundreds of millions
or maybe billions ?

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 15:32:10 -0700, Lew Hartswick
wrote:

wrote:

I thought the people on this group would be interested int his
article:

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2...21_004346.html

It's about "green" lead-free solder has caused problems. It think the
money quote is this one:

"And if you think this problem is minor, I have been told that just
the cost of changing to lead-free solder stands right now at $280
BILLION and climbing. That cost is borne by all of us."

It even has some metal content...

I think nearly all the electrical connections in a car are solderless
compression fittings. If they aren't they should be. Done right it
makes a better connection than solder. That means using the appropiate
connector and the tooling that they were designed for. NOT those
idiot "multipurpose" thingos. :-)
...lew...

Virtually NONE of the connections in/on the microprocessors and
associated controllers (think Can-bus) are constructed with crimp
connections. They have ciecuit boards, which are soldered. Leadfre
solder is a total pain in the butt to work with, and ALL devices to be
soldered with lead free NEED to be specially made for lead free
solder. The problems with lead-free solder in electronics assembly are
legion.

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Default Lead in solder


I'd like to know where he came up with that $280B figure.


I don't know, exactly, but in my assembly business, the time taken by
our assemblers to place a component on a circuit board using lead-free
pure tin solder is about twice as long as with tin/lead solder. So,
that may be where the amount came from. The machine placed components
using a paste of tin-silver-copper takes the same amount of time. The
pass through the convection oven is also about the same time.

The scary thing is what two of our customers reported in the last
couple of weeks. That is a perfectly soldered lead-free component,
soldered to a silver plated circuit board using tin-silver-copper
solder paste, popped off the circuit board, leaving a trace of copper
from the component where it had been soldered.

The actual lead-free plating on the copper component leads detached
from the component.

I have read that lead-free wave soldering will always begin to
dissolve the copper board trace into the molten solder. Same thing may
happen with lead-free solder paste and a convection oven when the time
of the paste being liquid is too long. I have not read about the
component tinning/plating also causing copper problems in the
component.

This happened on one component on one board out of many for two
different customers. Not the same component manufacture, either.

Paul



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Default Lead in solder

One of many issues is the thermal expansion of component and boards.
Most of the time it is close, but he tin-lead gave some stretch.
This lead free is harder and causes parts to come off.

I have to debug my weather station - the outside unit has several
TSSOP packages - small thin leads that Gull-wing out the sides.
These traditionally spring off the pcb in massive thermal ratios,
but across the country they are in failure mode and I suspect
the packages should have been BGA or SSOJ with the J lead that pretends
to be like a ball.

I went through a lot of engineering and stress testing - you should have
seen my oven - Hot & cold oven about the size of my office - walk in -
and put entire computers within - have them cycle up and down in all sorts
of temps - and see if any part starts to creep or spring up.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


wrote:
I'd like to know where he came up with that $280B figure.


I don't know, exactly, but in my assembly business, the time taken by
our assemblers to place a component on a circuit board using lead-free
pure tin solder is about twice as long as with tin/lead solder. So,
that may be where the amount came from. The machine placed components
using a paste of tin-silver-copper takes the same amount of time. The
pass through the convection oven is also about the same time.

The scary thing is what two of our customers reported in the last
couple of weeks. That is a perfectly soldered lead-free component,
soldered to a silver plated circuit board using tin-silver-copper
solder paste, popped off the circuit board, leaving a trace of copper
from the component where it had been soldered.

The actual lead-free plating on the copper component leads detached
from the component.

I have read that lead-free wave soldering will always begin to
dissolve the copper board trace into the molten solder. Same thing may
happen with lead-free solder paste and a convection oven when the time
of the paste being liquid is too long. I have not read about the
component tinning/plating also causing copper problems in the
component.

This happened on one component on one board out of many for two
different customers. Not the same component manufacture, either.

Paul

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Default Lead in solder

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
Virtually NONE of the connections in/on the microprocessors and
associated controllers (think Can-bus) are constructed with crimp
connections. They have ciecuit boards, which are soldered. Leadfre
solder is a total pain in the butt to work with, and ALL devices to be
soldered with lead free NEED to be specially made for lead free
solder. The problems with lead-free solder in electronics assembly are
legion.


SORRY! I keep forgeting that there all that electronic JUNK in a car.
To me "automobile" wiring is the things that were in cars back in the
"dim dark" years of 50s and 60s when I worked on my own vehicles. :-)
...lew...
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Default Lead in solder

I have read all of the responses as of now to this thread and the one
contribution I will make is that you boys should not panic over these
ridiculus rules and regulations that the green police are trying to invoke,
because these are wars that have already been won. There have always been
Ralph Naders and the like, but they are their own worst enemy. Common sense
will always prevail and economics will rule supreme. Stupidity has it's just
rewards. Nader killed his own carreer and so has Al Gore. Patience is a
virtue. Just look what these guys do, they take undeniable observations and
distort the analyisis. Fortunately, only the uninformed buy in. As an
example, there are now a new class of companies that have been born just to
help firms recover from ISO 9000 and all the other "Do it anyway, even if it
doesn't add value" Standards.
Steve

wrote in message
...
I thought the people on this group would be interested int his
article:

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2...21_004346.html

It's about "green" lead-free solder has caused problems. It think the
money quote is this one:

"And if you think this problem is minor, I have been told that just
the cost of changing to lead-free solder stands right now at $280
BILLION and climbing. That cost is borne by all of us."

It even has some metal content...



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Default Lead in solder

On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 20:24:21 -0800 (PST), with neither quill nor
qualm, " quickly quoth:


I'd like to know where he came up with that $280B figure.


I don't know, exactly, but in my assembly business, the time taken by
our assemblers to place a component on a circuit board using lead-free
pure tin solder is about twice as long as with tin/lead solder. So,
that may be where the amount came from. The machine placed components
using a paste of tin-silver-copper takes the same amount of time. The
pass through the convection oven is also about the same time.


Hand-assembled articles are surely in the minority nowadays, eh?
I wonder if his figure includes the fried components due to grown tin
spikes, etc.


The scary thing is what two of our customers reported in the last
couple of weeks. That is a perfectly soldered lead-free component,
soldered to a silver plated circuit board using tin-silver-copper
solder paste, popped off the circuit board, leaving a trace of copper
from the component where it had been soldered.

The actual lead-free plating on the copper component leads detached
from the component.


Whoa! That's a new one. Luckily, I didn't do more than a day or two
of assembly inspection in my QA years (shipping and receiving was much
more fun), but that was before lead-free was politically curserect.


I have read that lead-free wave soldering will always begin to
dissolve the copper board trace into the molten solder. Same thing may
happen with lead-free solder paste and a convection oven when the time
of the paste being liquid is too long. I have not read about the
component tinning/plating also causing copper problems in the
component.

This happened on one component on one board out of many for two
different customers. Not the same component manufacture, either.


This does not bode well, and if it turns into a larger trend, what
will the cost be to resolder all the lead-free equipment with leaded
solder in the future? sigh

Peter Huber got it right in his book _Hard Green_. The soft greenies
are depriving today's and tomorrow's children of their parents' wealth
and futures. Maybe the rampant idiocy in the media can be stampeded
back to sanity, so the useless forms of green thinking are eliminated
from the public eye.

Has anyone found stats for "lives saved by moving to lead-free
solders", perchance? Any bets on the figure being low to none?

---
Every moment is a golden one
for him who has the vision to recognize it as such.
-- Henry Miller
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Default Lead in solder

On Feb 22, 8:34 pm, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:
One of many issues is the thermal expansion of component and boards.
Most of the time it is close, but he tin-lead gave some stretch.
This lead free is harder and causes parts to come off.

I have to debug my weather station - the outside unit has several
TSSOP packages - small thin leads that Gull-wing out the sides.
These traditionally spring off the pcb in massive thermal ratios,
but across the country they are in failure mode and I suspect
the packages should have been BGA or SSOJ with the J lead that pretends
to be like a ball.

I went through a lot of engineering and stress testing - you should have
seen my oven - Hot & cold oven about the size of my office - walk in -
and put entire computers within - have them cycle up and down in all sorts
of temps - and see if any part starts to creep or spring up.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.http://lufkinced.com/

wrote:
I'd like to know where he came up with that $280B figure.


I don't know, exactly, but in my assembly business, the time taken by
our assemblers to place a component on a circuit board using lead-free
pure tin solder is about twice as long as with tin/lead solder. So,
that may be where the amount came from. The machine placed components
using a paste of tin-silver-copper takes the same amount of time. The
pass through the convection oven is also about the same time.


The scary thing is what two of our customers reported in the last
couple of weeks. That is a perfectly soldered lead-free component,
soldered to a silver plated circuit board using tin-silver-copper
solder paste, popped off the circuit board, leaving a trace of copper
from the component where it had been soldered.


The actual lead-free plating on the copper component leads detached
from the component.


I have read that lead-free wave soldering will always begin to
dissolve the copper board trace into the molten solder. Same thing may
happen with lead-free solder paste and a convection oven when the time
of the paste being liquid is too long. I have not read about the
component tinning/plating also causing copper problems in the
component.


This happened on one component on one board out of many for two
different customers. Not the same component manufacture, either.


Paul


Thanks for the heads up on the possible thermal problems. We just
build them as the customer requires, but very few customers even knew
lead-free was required for export to Europe. So, they are still in
catch-up mode! When and if we can get in on the engineering phase of a
product, I will suggest we look at the larger component packaging to
see if the leads or pads will allow for movement caused by expansion/
contraction.

For the edification of the other posters, most, if not all, circuit
boards with surface mount components will have at least one hand-add
that is either surface mount or through-hole. Also, most current
production surface mount components are ONLY available lead-free. No
choices.

Thanks, Paul



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Default Lead in solder

Gosh - I forget the name/number - but there is a lead frame metal that has
the same thermal expansion coefficients as does FR4. A large Canadian Telecom
required us to use it and the J leads. They had outpost (boondocks)
electronics that would suffer heat of summer and cold of winter.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


wrote:
On Feb 22, 8:34 pm, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:
One of many issues is the thermal expansion of component and boards.
Most of the time it is close, but he tin-lead gave some stretch.
This lead free is harder and causes parts to come off.

I have to debug my weather station - the outside unit has several
TSSOP packages - small thin leads that Gull-wing out the sides.
These traditionally spring off the pcb in massive thermal ratios,
but across the country they are in failure mode and I suspect
the packages should have been BGA or SSOJ with the J lead that pretends
to be like a ball.

I went through a lot of engineering and stress testing - you should have
seen my oven - Hot & cold oven about the size of my office - walk in -
and put entire computers within - have them cycle up and down in all sorts
of temps - and see if any part starts to creep or spring up.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/

wrote:
I'd like to know where he came up with that $280B figure.
I don't know, exactly, but in my assembly business, the time taken by
our assemblers to place a component on a circuit board using lead-free
pure tin solder is about twice as long as with tin/lead solder. So,
that may be where the amount came from. The machine placed components
using a paste of tin-silver-copper takes the same amount of time. The
pass through the convection oven is also about the same time.
The scary thing is what two of our customers reported in the last
couple of weeks. That is a perfectly soldered lead-free component,
soldered to a silver plated circuit board using tin-silver-copper
solder paste, popped off the circuit board, leaving a trace of copper
from the component where it had been soldered.
The actual lead-free plating on the copper component leads detached
from the component.
I have read that lead-free wave soldering will always begin to
dissolve the copper board trace into the molten solder. Same thing may
happen with lead-free solder paste and a convection oven when the time
of the paste being liquid is too long. I have not read about the
component tinning/plating also causing copper problems in the
component.
This happened on one component on one board out of many for two
different customers. Not the same component manufacture, either.
Paul


Thanks for the heads up on the possible thermal problems. We just
build them as the customer requires, but very few customers even knew
lead-free was required for export to Europe. So, they are still in
catch-up mode! When and if we can get in on the engineering phase of a
product, I will suggest we look at the larger component packaging to
see if the leads or pads will allow for movement caused by expansion/
contraction.

For the edification of the other posters, most, if not all, circuit
boards with surface mount components will have at least one hand-add
that is either surface mount or through-hole. Also, most current
production surface mount components are ONLY available lead-free. No
choices.

Thanks, Paul

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