Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Trying to form a Union

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:01:47 -0800 (PST), Millwright Ron
wrote:

************************************************* ****

It is hard to argue with the facts

U.S. workers who belong to unions earn 30 percent more than non-union
workers.

Bureau of Labor Statistics, "Union Members in 2006, Table 2. Median
weekly earnings of full-time wage and salary workers by union
affiliation and selected characteristics." Current Population Survey,
January 2007

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com



Indeed they do.

Damn sad they dont actually deserve that 30%

Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
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Default Trying to form a Union

In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes.
Unity
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com
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Default Trying to form a Union

Millwright Ron wrote:

In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes.



Every place I've worked at where someone started talking
about trying to go union, my response was that I would quit
if they succeeded.

Jon
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Default Trying to form a Union

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 19:40:20 -0800 (PST), Millwright Ron
wrote:

In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes.
Unity
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com



Damit.I thought we had gone to lean manufacturing and had speeded up
the process?

Lets get our cycle times down to a couple minutes per activist.

Gunner
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Default Trying to form a Union


"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...
In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes.
Unity
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com


You'd think that guy would get the hint after a while.




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Default Trying to form a Union

I'd fire someone that stopped working every 23 minutes and started
talking about something other than his or her job.



Millwright Ron wrote:
In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes.
Unity
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

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Default Trying to form a Union

Good one.


"Louis Ohland" wrote in message
...
I'd fire someone that stopped working every 23 minutes and started talking
about something other than his or her job.



Millwright Ron wrote:
In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes.
Unity
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com



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Default Trying to form a Union

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 21:44:48 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm, Jon
Anderson quickly quoth:

Millwright Ron wrote:

In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes.



Every place I've worked at where someone started talking
about trying to go union, my response was that I would quit
if they succeeded.


If I had an employee trying to start a union every 23 minutes instead
of working, I'd fire his ass, too. titter

--
Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do.
-- Confucius
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Default Trying to form a Union

On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 16:24:34 -0800 (PST), Millwright Ron
wrote:

On Feb 12, 3:21*pm, "azotic" wrote:
"Millwright Ron" wrote in message

...
On Feb 12, 11:24 am, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:





"azotic" wrote in message


...


"Hawke" wrote in message
...


Unions make companies cough up a share of the profits for
the workers and that comes out of the pockets of shareholders and
management.


If workers want to share in the profits they can simply become
shareholders
themselves.


Best Regards
Tom.


Drum roll please!


************************************************** **************
Here is your Drum Roll

"We are living in the most selfish generation in the history of this
country," *"Their agenda is a race to the bottom line of cheap wages,
a race to the bottom of retirement and health care and education."

"How can you as a CEO take a huge bonus and then five months later
watch your pensions fall apart?" he asked. "What has to be inside such
a person?"

GREED

Ton knows Best
Millwright Ron

Your right all those greedy workers that have 401K's and self directed IRA's
are demanding higher profits.
Wanna bet some of those greedy *******s are union members ?

Best Regards
Tom.
Proud to be a CEO union member.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



************************************************* *******************

Toxic People:

We have met them in the hallways of our workplaces -- the "toxic"
people, poisoning the work environment with their anger or cynicism or
excessive criticism of others.

You can identify them since they act as if the only agenda that
matters is their own personal agenda, and the only time that counts is
theirs. We know them by their rudeness in meetings, or their inability
to find the good in any ideas other than their own, or their laser-
like ability to find fault without seeming to ever give credit.

The world revolves around them and they are unwilling to really
examine the impact of their behavior on others. These people are
"toxic" in that their impact on those around them, especially when in
critical positions of responsibility, is that they poison trust,
trample good will, destroy self-esteem and rot the fabric of
teamwork.

They cost industry and government billions of dollars in lost
opportunities, re-work, extra sick leave and errors they engender due
to the problems in communication, lowered collaboration, mistrust,
frustration and fear in their wake.

What gives? Can't they and the powers that be see the effects of their
toxicity? Why are they tolerated, and how in the heck did they get to
be where they are today?

The answer is that if you were a star producer, or very bright and
capable, working hard and getting results then you were often promoted
in spite of the way you treated other people or damaged working
relationships around you.

After all, we traditionally have measured how long you worked and what
you were able to accomplish with little attention on how you helped or
hurt the working relationships, trust and collaborative networks
around you.

This was poor management and even poorer leadership. In the words of
Jack Welch, the recently retired CEO of GE, "We must insist on people
keeping their commitments (getting results) as well as those who
demonstrate the values (valuing relationship development.)"

He further stated that those who only got the results but damaged
relationships consistently were like a cancer in an organization.

Yet, the days of the toxic individual are numbered. There is
increasingly less tolerance for their fits of temper or constant
criticism or inflated self-importance or disrespectful behavior.

The reasons are two fold. First, as all of us have noticed, the world
is changing dramatically. The global marketplace is more dynamic,
demanding and less tolerant of mistakes and those who are slow to
assimilate lessons or to adapt to changing conditions and customer
demands.

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com



So whats the MDS on Unions?


"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
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Default Trying to form a Union

Six times down, the seventh up.

Larry Jaques wrote:
Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do.
-- Confucius



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Default Trying to form a Union

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...
In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes.
Unity
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com


You'd think that guy would get the hint after a while.


I don't think these union snobs are sharp enough to get it!
For the last 2-3 years the local sheet metal union has been trying to sell
our shop on going union. He stops in, talks to our guys in the AM, hands out
pamphlets at the gate. One Friday after work he brought in pizza and pop to
get us to stay and talk. About 1/2 the workers stayed, and most of them were
there for the free food only. Once the food was gone, he was still talking,
and they walked out. The other day we were all invited to a local bar, free
beer and appetizers. A couple guys showed up. I would have showed too, the
bar has great food, (who does not like good, free food), but I had other
plans.
The owner of the shop has invited the union in to talk the the workers, sets
up dates, and nobody shows up, except for a couple guys.
On the flip side, we have a plumbing shop that is union. When we get caught
up with work they are the first to get laid off while us non-union workers
get put to work cleaning an reorganizing the shop at regular pay. Allot of
good the union does there!
Greg

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Default Trying to shill for unions



Millwright Wrong wrote in article
...
In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes.

Millwright Wrong
union shill




If you ask me, that's FAR too lenient. The SOBs ought to be shot!!!!

Ask ANYBODY who has worked in both union and non-union shops and they will
tell you that their angriest co-workers were the union idiots who allow the
union brass to convince them that things are, somehow, worse than they
actually are.

I'd rather spend my own money on myself instead of paying for some union
president and a few of his goons to vacation in the tropics.



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Default Trying to form a Union

Interesting viewpoints, my counter viewpoint.

Historically the Union movement has created some of the great social
advances in the OECD countries - try universal free education was Union
inspired, universal health coverage (still a dream in the US) came from the
health cooperatives setup by miners in Germany and Wales. Most health,
safety and environment legislation was drafted by the union movements who
often have a wider view of whats happening. The UKs clean Air/clean Water
legislation came from the Labour movement post WW2. Practically every OECD
country has examples of Unions enabling a better way of life, not just for
employees but for the wider population.

The other thing that a lot of employers fail to realise that in many
instances having a Unionised workforce is actually easier to administer -
one collective agreement instead of individual contracts - usually where
more than 50 employees are concerned.

Australia introduced Union busting legislation about 3 years ago, forcing
individual contracts of employment. Industrial accidents have dramatically
increased over the last 2 years, one industry has had 23 fatalities since
Jan 1 this year because of the piece rate payment methods that encourage
employees to cut corners but indemnify the employer from unsafe work
practices. Fortunately the new Government will be rescinding the
legislation.


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Default Trying to form a Union

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 03:25:10 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Hawke wrote:

We get your point. But you could have said the same thing in a lot fewer
words. I think I can be a little more concise. What you are trying to say is
that Tom and other businessmen like him are "dicks". Like most bosses he's a
self centered, petty, tyrant. He cares more about himself and his money than
anything else in the world especially other people. He has little sympathy
for workers and sees them as being members of an inferior class. Quite
simply, he's a dick. That about covers it. One sure way of knowing he's a
dick is that he probably voted for George Bush too.

Hawke



You sure spend a lot of time thinking about dicks, pervert.



Didnt you know? The Parakeet is a 20 yr old fagboi who lives in his
mothers basement and has these delusions that he knows "dick" in other
than the swallowing mode.



Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
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Default Trying to form a Union

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 03:27:33 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Hawke wrote:

Why should they have to become shareholders to share in the profits? After
all it's the workers who make the products and provide the services that
creates the profits to begin with. We all know it's not the owners and
management who actually produce anything. Workers should profit from what
they contribute to the success of the business and without them there is no
business. The Hollywood producers just found that out. No writers, no makie
money. No workers, no makie money. Owners just don't want to be fair they
want the workers to do all the work and give them nothing so they can keep
all the profits for themselves. That isn't exactly a secret. It's been going
on for centuries.



Idiot. those workers didn't raise the capital, or spend years
building the business, unless it is employee owned. They get what they
deserve. No more and no less. Not one of them would take those risks,
or they would own a business, not work for it.



The workers perform a service, for which they are renumerated at a
mutally agreed upon rate. They provide a service for which someone
else is willing to pay a certain amount.

The Parakeet and the other closet socialists like Millwrong Ron
believe that if you pay to get your carpets cleaned, the carpet
cleaning company now deserves a financial interest in your house.

Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner


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Default Trying to form a Union

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 21:44:48 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote:
Millwright Ron wrote:


In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes.


Every place I've worked at where someone started talking
about trying to go union, my response was that I would quit
if they succeeded.


Every place I've ever worked that was union, the usual reason was
that the Management is (or was at one time, or is perceived to be)
abusive to the employees and DESERVED to be saddled with a Union to
get proper treatment.

Or it is a job with significant workplace hazards, and the employer
paid lip-service to safety and treated all employees as 'disposable
assets' till the Union got in and forced reforms.

Problem with that is, now that the Union is firmly entrenched in the
abusive workplace the cure turns out to be as bad as the disease, if
not worse. The Shop Stewards and Union Local Officials usually turn
out to be the biggest Fsck-ups in the whole place, because they know
they can almost literally get away with murder.

One Shop Steward left his empty little 1/2 Ounce brown glass
screw-top bottle (that had his daily Nose Candy in it) on the
dashboard of a communal parked truck at a Shiftwork manhole cable
splicing job, and damn near got everyone working at the site (three
shifts round the clock) hauled in to pee in a bottle. Luckily, the
Supervisor realized what was really going on and pragmatically
developed a case of temporary amnesia...

Another Steward got busted, arrested and fired for drugs - but they
kept him on the payroll 100% at the Local doing office work until all
the appeals were exhausted, and even past that until the complaints
got too loud...

Apparently, between the Co. pay and the Union pay, they were being
paid too much, and had to spread around the largesse to support their
local drug dealer.

The pendulum swings... Then it swings back... Forward... Back...

-- Bruce --

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Default Trying to form a Union

On Feb 9, 12:29 pm, "Roger" wrote:
Interesting viewpoints, my counter viewpoint.

Historically the Union movement has created some of the great social
advances in the OECD countries - try universal free education was Union
inspired, universal health coverage (still a dream in the US) came from the
health cooperatives setup by miners in Germany and Wales. Most health,
safety and environment legislation was drafted by the union movements who
often have a wider view of whats happening. The UKs clean Air/clean Water
legislation came from the Labour movement post WW2. Practically every OECD
country has examples of Unions enabling a better way of life, not just for
employees but for the wider population.

The other thing that a lot of employers fail to realise that in many
instances having a Unionised workforce is actually easier to administer -
one collective agreement instead of individual contracts - usually where
more than 50 employees are concerned.

Australia introduced Union busting legislation about 3 years ago, forcing
individual contracts of employment. Industrial accidents have dramatically
increased over the last 2 years, one industry has had 23 fatalities since
Jan 1 this year because of the piece rate payment methods that encourage
employees to cut corners but indemnify the employer from unsafe work
practices. Fortunately the new Government will be rescinding the
legislation.


Sounds like the counter view point is not a union member. How about
some personal experience stories, Roger.

Paul
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"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...
In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes.
Unity
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com


....and, every 23 minutes a manufacturing firm fractures it's activities and
outsources some jobs overseas. Every 23 minutes a number of union jobs are
replaced with automation. Every 23 minutes a union lowers the bar for
excellence in manufacturing to the point of drug and alcohol saturated union
employees, secure in their employment, set the standard.

I went from a high of 80 employees twenty years ago to 15 today and doubled
sales. Motivated by a parasitic union, our thrust into automation in addition
to outsourcing to non-union companies has eliminated these union jobs. The last
machine we built will eliminated another union job and the next will eliminate
two more. The union has priced themselves right out of the job market! I wish
I could eliminate a union job every 23 minutes! Hurray for unions!!!


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Sounds like the counter view point is not a union member. How about
some personal experience stories, Roger.

Paul


I was a Union member, have held a couple of voluntary union posts, became a
manager and could not retain Union membership. I dont see Unions as a
threat, if you are a proactive manager the bulk of Union "issues" are non
events as you have already sorted them - eg Health and Safety is a
management task, not a Unions officials. Unions are a fact of life, good
managers cope with them, just like you deal with customers, suppliers or bad
weather. Thats what managers are paid to do, well they do where I worked.

Some Unions certainly live in the past - notably the ones representing the
"old" industries (heavy engineering, mining, refining) who have hung onto
overmanning and under skilling. The Unions that had the foresight to
encourage increased skills (electrical trades for one) and encouraged
employers and employees to adapt to new technology have actually increased
their membership and the wages and profits of the companies they work with.

There is an increasing number of employers who see the threat from third
world countries as a chance to just lower wages and revert to the 19th
Century, rather than develop a skilled, literate and numerate workforce who
cant be bettered by third world workshops - Boeing, Thales, BAE, etc. are
good examples. Plus some niche markets - I know of a printer who has
developed security tags for the retail industry, he used to employ about ten
printer/labourers, now employs about 50 with electronics backgrounds who
produce high tech materials.


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Default Trying to form a Union

"Tom Gardner" wrote:

I went from a high of 80 employees twenty years ago to 15 today and doubled
sales. Motivated by a parasitic union, our thrust into automation in addition
to outsourcing to non-union companies has eliminated these union jobs. The last
machine we built will eliminated another union job and the next will eliminate
two more. The union has priced themselves right out of the job market! I wish
I could eliminate a union job every 23 minutes! Hurray for unions!!!


My first serious encounter with automation was when an engineer bought a
used GMF (GM Fanuc) robot to perform a task with out realizing that actually
getting it to do the task was outside his skill set. Being a former radar
tech and a computer geek (pre-msdos), getting it to work was interesting but
not terribly challenging.

That marriage of General Motors and Fanuc was one of GM's investments
designed to get many high priced bodies out of their factories.

It is a fact of life that a workers wage + benefits x number of shifts x pay
back period is the budget for eliminating that job.

Which is why you always want to upgrade your skills.


Wes


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Default Trying to form a Union

As Tony Saprano would say "ounce ya's in theres no getin out"

Millwright Ron wrote:
In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes.
Unity
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

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ATP* wrote:

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...
In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes.
Unity
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com


You'd think that guy would get the hint after a while.



Impossible. If he were that smart he would have never joined a union.
Just plonk the sad, lobotomized ******* and get on with your life.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
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"Roger" wrote in message
news

Sounds like the counter view point is not a union member. How about
some personal experience stories, Roger.

Paul


I was a Union member, have held a couple of voluntary union posts, became a
manager and could not retain Union membership. I dont see Unions as a threat,
if you are a proactive manager the bulk of Union "issues" are non events as
you have already sorted them - eg Health and Safety is a management task, not
a Unions officials. Unions are a fact of life, good managers cope with them,
just like you deal with customers, suppliers or bad weather. Thats what
managers are paid to do, well they do where I worked.

Some Unions certainly live in the past - notably the ones representing the
"old" industries (heavy engineering, mining, refining) who have hung onto
overmanning and under skilling. The Unions that had the foresight to encourage
increased skills (electrical trades for one) and encouraged employers and
employees to adapt to new technology have actually increased their membership
and the wages and profits of the companies they work with.

There is an increasing number of employers who see the threat from third world
countries as a chance to just lower wages and revert to the 19th Century,
rather than develop a skilled, literate and numerate workforce who cant be
bettered by third world workshops - Boeing, Thales, BAE, etc. are good
examples. Plus some niche markets - I know of a printer who has developed
security tags for the retail industry, he used to employ about ten
printer/labourers, now employs about 50 with electronics backgrounds who
produce high tech materials.


My union isn't really a problem but I was told that when I go to sell the
company, I can expect 20% less than if I didn't have a union.


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Default Trying to form a Union


"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
. net...

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...
In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes.
Unity
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com


...and, every 23 minutes a manufacturing firm fractures it's activities

and
outsources some jobs overseas. Every 23 minutes a number of union jobs

are
replaced with automation. Every 23 minutes a union lowers the bar for
excellence in manufacturing to the point of drug and alcohol saturated

union
employees, secure in their employment, set the standard.

I went from a high of 80 employees twenty years ago to 15 today and

doubled
sales. Motivated by a parasitic union, our thrust into automation in

addition
to outsourcing to non-union companies has eliminated these union jobs.

The last
machine we built will eliminated another union job and the next will

eliminate
two more. The union has priced themselves right out of the job market! I

wish
I could eliminate a union job every 23 minutes! Hurray for unions!!!


Yes, that's right, blame the union any time you can. Maybe if you and others
in management work hard enough you can eliminate unions altogether. That's
been the goal and desire of management for 100 years. Like your predecessors
you are still at it. I'm sure you would be glad to hire people if they just
hadn't priced themselves out of work. Say if they would work for you for
three dollars an hour or so and without benefits then you would be hiring
instead of firing. Oh for the good old days of 1.35 an hour minimum wage.
Just like a conservative, wanting to return to some magical time when the
world was better. What a fairy tale. Just like your entire anti union
rantings.

Hawke


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"Roger" wrote in message
news

Sounds like the counter view point is not a union member. How about
some personal experience stories, Roger.

Paul


I was a Union member, have held a couple of voluntary union posts, became

a
manager and could not retain Union membership. I dont see Unions as a
threat, if you are a proactive manager the bulk of Union "issues" are non
events as you have already sorted them - eg Health and Safety is a
management task, not a Unions officials. Unions are a fact of life, good
managers cope with them, just like you deal with customers, suppliers or

bad
weather. Thats what managers are paid to do, well they do where I worked.

Some Unions certainly live in the past - notably the ones representing the
"old" industries (heavy engineering, mining, refining) who have hung onto
overmanning and under skilling. The Unions that had the foresight to
encourage increased skills (electrical trades for one) and encouraged
employers and employees to adapt to new technology have actually increased
their membership and the wages and profits of the companies they work

with.

There is an increasing number of employers who see the threat from third
world countries as a chance to just lower wages and revert to the 19th
Century, rather than develop a skilled, literate and numerate workforce

who
cant be bettered by third world workshops - Boeing, Thales, BAE, etc. are
good examples. Plus some niche markets - I know of a printer who has
developed security tags for the retail industry, he used to employ about

ten
printer/labourers, now employs about 50 with electronics backgrounds who
produce high tech materials.



See, old Tom is against unions for the same reason all management is, it's
their greed. Unions make companies cough up a share of the profits for the
workers and that comes out of the pockets of shareholders and management.
Tom says he would get less for a union company than a non union one. That's
pretty simple isn't it. It's all about money and the unions having to force
companies to share the wealth is what it's all about because corporations
and businesses are always greedy. Look at the writers guild strike that is
just being settled. The big shots didn't want to cut the writers in on any
of the profits they were making selling on the internet. The only thing that
made them relent was a strike. Which just proves that without a union to
bargain for the workers the bosses would screw them just like they did in
the 1930s. For them nothing has changed. Without unions workers have to
compete against businesses all alone and they get the short end of the stick
every time. Just like always. It's easy to see why all the right wing
businessmen are anti union isn't it?



Hawke




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Default Trying to form a Union


"Hawke" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
. net...

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...
In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes.
Unity
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com


...and, every 23 minutes a manufacturing firm fractures it's activities

and
outsources some jobs overseas. Every 23 minutes a number of union jobs

are
replaced with automation. Every 23 minutes a union lowers the bar for
excellence in manufacturing to the point of drug and alcohol saturated

union
employees, secure in their employment, set the standard.

I went from a high of 80 employees twenty years ago to 15 today and

doubled
sales. Motivated by a parasitic union, our thrust into automation in

addition
to outsourcing to non-union companies has eliminated these union jobs.

The last
machine we built will eliminated another union job and the next will

eliminate
two more. The union has priced themselves right out of the job market!
I

wish
I could eliminate a union job every 23 minutes! Hurray for unions!!!


Yes, that's right, blame the union any time you can. Maybe if you and
others
in management work hard enough you can eliminate unions altogether



That would be wonderful.

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Posts: 353
Default Trying to form a Union


"Hawke" wrote in message
...

"Roger" wrote in message
news

Sounds like the counter view point is not a union member. How about
some personal experience stories, Roger.

Paul


I was a Union member, have held a couple of voluntary union posts, became

a
manager and could not retain Union membership. I dont see Unions as a
threat, if you are a proactive manager the bulk of Union "issues" are non
events as you have already sorted them - eg Health and Safety is a
management task, not a Unions officials. Unions are a fact of life, good
managers cope with them, just like you deal with customers, suppliers or

bad
weather. Thats what managers are paid to do, well they do where I worked.

Some Unions certainly live in the past - notably the ones representing the
"old" industries (heavy engineering, mining, refining) who have hung onto
overmanning and under skilling. The Unions that had the foresight to
encourage increased skills (electrical trades for one) and encouraged
employers and employees to adapt to new technology have actually increased
their membership and the wages and profits of the companies they work

with.

There is an increasing number of employers who see the threat from third
world countries as a chance to just lower wages and revert to the 19th
Century, rather than develop a skilled, literate and numerate workforce

who
cant be bettered by third world workshops - Boeing, Thales, BAE, etc. are
good examples. Plus some niche markets - I know of a printer who has
developed security tags for the retail industry, he used to employ about

ten
printer/labourers, now employs about 50 with electronics backgrounds who
produce high tech materials.



See, old Tom is against unions for the same reason all management is, it's
their greed. Unions make companies cough up a share of the profits for the
workers and that comes out of the pockets of shareholders and management.
Tom says he would get less for a union company than a non union one. That's
pretty simple isn't it. It's all about money and the unions having to force
companies to share the wealth is what it's all about because corporations
and businesses are always greedy. Look at the writers guild strike that is
just being settled. The big shots didn't want to cut the writers in on any
of the profits they were making selling on the internet. The only thing that
made them relent was a strike. Which just proves that without a union to
bargain for the workers the bosses would screw them just like they did in
the 1930s. For them nothing has changed. Without unions workers have to
compete against businesses all alone and they get the short end of the stick
every time. Just like always. It's easy to see why all the right wing
businessmen are anti union isn't it?



Hawke



Once again, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. You have obviously
never held ANY type of responsible position and have most likely been protected
by a union that otherwise your lack of marketable skills would have had you
dismissed from even the most menial jobs. You have NO concept that companies
DON'T exist for the sole benefit of hired workers. Socialism NEVER worked in
the past, you think that it'll work THIS time. Fool...


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Posts: 353
Default Trying to form a Union


"Hawke" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
. net...

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...
In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes.
Unity
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com


...and, every 23 minutes a manufacturing firm fractures it's activities

and
outsources some jobs overseas. Every 23 minutes a number of union jobs

are
replaced with automation. Every 23 minutes a union lowers the bar for
excellence in manufacturing to the point of drug and alcohol saturated

union
employees, secure in their employment, set the standard.

I went from a high of 80 employees twenty years ago to 15 today and

doubled
sales. Motivated by a parasitic union, our thrust into automation in

addition
to outsourcing to non-union companies has eliminated these union jobs.

The last
machine we built will eliminated another union job and the next will

eliminate
two more. The union has priced themselves right out of the job market! I

wish
I could eliminate a union job every 23 minutes! Hurray for unions!!!


Yes, that's right, blame the union any time you can. Maybe if you and others
in management work hard enough you can eliminate unions altogether. That's
been the goal and desire of management for 100 years. Like your predecessors
you are still at it. I'm sure you would be glad to hire people if they just
hadn't priced themselves out of work. Say if they would work for you for
three dollars an hour or so and without benefits then you would be hiring
instead of firing. Oh for the good old days of 1.35 an hour minimum wage.
Just like a conservative, wanting to return to some magical time when the
world was better. What a fairy tale. Just like your entire anti union
rantings.

Hawke


Like I should pay $50,000 for somebody to sweep on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Or,
pay $100 labor for $80 worth of salable goods. You'd starve if you had to rely
on your skills to eat. Go check the tire pressure on your house!


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Default Trying to form a Union


"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Roger" wrote in message
news

Sounds like the counter view point is not a union member. How about
some personal experience stories, Roger.

Paul


I was a Union member, have held a couple of voluntary union posts, became
a manager and could not retain Union membership. I dont see Unions as a
threat, if you are a proactive manager the bulk of Union "issues" are non
events as you have already sorted them - eg Health and Safety is a
management task, not a Unions officials. Unions are a fact of life, good
managers cope with them, just like you deal with customers, suppliers or
bad weather. Thats what managers are paid to do, well they do where I
worked.

Some Unions certainly live in the past - notably the ones representing
the "old" industries (heavy engineering, mining, refining) who have hung
onto overmanning and under skilling. The Unions that had the foresight to
encourage increased skills (electrical trades for one) and encouraged
employers and employees to adapt to new technology have actually
increased their membership and the wages and profits of the companies
they work with.

There is an increasing number of employers who see the threat from third
world countries as a chance to just lower wages and revert to the 19th
Century, rather than develop a skilled, literate and numerate workforce
who cant be bettered by third world workshops - Boeing, Thales, BAE, etc.
are good examples. Plus some niche markets - I know of a printer who has
developed security tags for the retail industry, he used to employ about
ten printer/labourers, now employs about 50 with electronics backgrounds
who produce high tech materials.


My union isn't really a problem but I was told that when I go to sell the
company, I can expect 20% less than if I didn't have a union.

I am surprised that anyone buying a business would even include union
representation in their calculations, accountants usually look at the
balance sheet with a 5 year or less payback on the capital outlay plus a 15%
return or better on the capital as operating profit each year. If you are
getting less than that its not a business, its an expensive hobby.

Its interesting how poorly performing businesses focus on labour costs, when
the costs of labour may only be 10% or less of the turnover for the
business. But the managers think nothing of carrying inventory worth more
than the annual wages bill, or persist with machines made in the 1950s. They
cut labour costs relentlessly, the numbers look big, but they have minimal
impact on the profits of the company (cutting 10% off wages will have a less
than 1% impact on profits if wages are 10% of turnover - assuming turnover
stays the same).

Get back to manufacturing basics, read Juran - learn how he took Japan (and
Asia) from an industrial wreck in 1945 into the power house it is today. Its
not new, an American industrial engineer turned Japan around with 1940s
wartime US production methods, but is almost unknown and unread in the USA.


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Default Trying to form a Union

On Feb 10, 11:17*am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
ATP* wrote:

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...
In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes.
Unity
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com


You'd think that guy would get the hint after a while.


* Impossible. If he were that smart he would have never joined a union.
Just plonk the sad, lobotomized ******* and get on with your life.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

************************************************** ***

It is hard to argue with the facts

U.S. workers who belong to unions earn 30 percent more than non-union
workers.

Bureau of Labor Statistics, "Union Members in 2006, Table 2. Median
weekly earnings of full-time wage and salary workers by union
affiliation and selected characteristics." Current Population Survey,
January 2007

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com




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Posts: 353
Default Trying to form a Union


"Roger" wrote in message
news snip
I am surprised that anyone buying a business would even include union
representation in their calculations, accountants usually look at the
balance sheet with a 5 year or less payback on the capital outlay plus a 15%
return or better on the capital as operating profit each year. If you are
getting less than that its not a business, its an expensive hobby.

Return on capital is not return on sales, you didn't make that point clear.
How could you possibly think that a union isn't a negative to potential buyers?

Get back to manufacturing basics, read Juran - learn how he took Japan (and
Asia) from an industrial wreck in 1945 into the power house it is today. Its
not new, an American industrial engineer turned Japan around with 1940s
wartime US production methods, but is almost unknown and unread in the USA.

During the 1980's Japan was seen to be a manufacturing powerhouse while American
industry was struggling to keep pace. It was strongly believed that Japanese
manufacturing techniques were uniquely developed for and suited to the Japanese
culture, and thus unsuited for American culture.

The release of the whitepaper showed that the Japanese techniques were, in fact,
taught to Japanese manufacturers by an W. Edwards Deming, whose beliefs had been
largely ignored by American management. Deming had a LOT more to do with the
reformation of Japan's manufacturing and their production philosophy!


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Default Trying to form a Union

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 17:58:05 +0530, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:01:47 -0800 (PST), Millwright Ron
wrote:

It is hard to argue with the facts
U.S. workers who belong to unions earn 30 percent more than non-union
workers.


Indeed they do.
Damn sad they dont actually deserve that 30%


I wonder if Ron has examples of senior IT professionals making this
alleged 30% bump. I'm guessing not.

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Posts: 602
Default Trying to form a Union

So how many jobs are cut due to employers having to pay union wages?

How much automation is trying to reduce the cost of union workers?

Millwright Ron wrote:
It is hard to argue with the facts

U.S. workers who belong to unions earn 30 percent more than non-union
workers.

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Posts: 916
Default Trying to form a Union

Millwright Ron wrote:

It is hard to argue with the facts

U.S. workers who belong to unions earn 30 percent more than non-union
workers.


Those union workers that still have jobs that is....


Jon
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Posts: 658
Default Trying to form a Union


Sounds like the counter view point is not a union member. How about
some personal experience stories, Roger.

Paul

I was a Union member, have held a couple of voluntary union posts,

became
a
manager and could not retain Union membership. I dont see Unions as a
threat, if you are a proactive manager the bulk of Union "issues" are

non
events as you have already sorted them - eg Health and Safety is a
management task, not a Unions officials. Unions are a fact of life,

good
managers cope with them, just like you deal with customers, suppliers

or
bad
weather. Thats what managers are paid to do, well they do where I

worked.

Some Unions certainly live in the past - notably the ones representing

the
"old" industries (heavy engineering, mining, refining) who have hung

onto
overmanning and under skilling. The Unions that had the foresight to
encourage increased skills (electrical trades for one) and encouraged
employers and employees to adapt to new technology have actually

increased
their membership and the wages and profits of the companies they work

with.

There is an increasing number of employers who see the threat from

third
world countries as a chance to just lower wages and revert to the 19th
Century, rather than develop a skilled, literate and numerate workforce

who
cant be bettered by third world workshops - Boeing, Thales, BAE, etc.

are
good examples. Plus some niche markets - I know of a printer who has
developed security tags for the retail industry, he used to employ

about
ten
printer/labourers, now employs about 50 with electronics backgrounds

who
produce high tech materials.



See, old Tom is against unions for the same reason all management is,

it's
their greed. Unions make companies cough up a share of the profits for

the
workers and that comes out of the pockets of shareholders and

management.
Tom says he would get less for a union company than a non union one.

That's
pretty simple isn't it. It's all about money and the unions having to

force
companies to share the wealth is what it's all about because

corporations
and businesses are always greedy. Look at the writers guild strike that

is
just being settled. The big shots didn't want to cut the writers in on

any
of the profits they were making selling on the internet. The only thing

that
made them relent was a strike. Which just proves that without a union to
bargain for the workers the bosses would screw them just like they did

in
the 1930s. For them nothing has changed. Without unions workers have to
compete against businesses all alone and they get the short end of the

stick
every time. Just like always. It's easy to see why all the right wing
businessmen are anti union isn't it?



Hawke



Once again, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. You have

obviously
never held ANY type of responsible position and have most likely been

protected
by a union that otherwise your lack of marketable skills would have had

you
dismissed from even the most menial jobs. You have NO concept that

companies
DON'T exist for the sole benefit of hired workers. Socialism NEVER worked

in
the past, you think that it'll work THIS time. Fool...



As expected, you couldn't refute what I said so you had no choice but to
assume negative things about me (incorrectly) and make nasty personal
comments. What I said was perfectly true but you didn't like the truth so
you made personal attacks instead. But what else could you do? When you
can't come up with the facts to win an argument use a personal attack. Just
what I thought you would do. Your type is so predictable it's really boring.

Hawke




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Posts: 658
Default Trying to form a Union


"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...
On Feb 10, 11:17 am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
ATP* wrote:

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...
In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes.
Unity
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com


You'd think that guy would get the hint after a while.


Impossible. If he were that smart he would have never joined a union.
Just plonk the sad, lobotomized ******* and get on with your life.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

************************************************** ***

It is hard to argue with the facts

U.S. workers who belong to unions earn 30 percent more than non-union
workers.

Bureau of Labor Statistics, "Union Members in 2006, Table 2. Median
weekly earnings of full-time wage and salary workers by union
affiliation and selected characteristics." Current Population Survey,
January 2007

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

Don't confuse them with facts. They learned what they know from their
ignorant, biased, racist, fathers at the kitchen table when they were kids
and nothing has changed for them since then. Once these guys are told
something by their daddy they go to their graves believing it no matter what
facts they learn later on in life. I've seen it over and over. It's how
republicans are created. Their dads make them at the kitchen table and
they're set in stone for life.

Hawke


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Posts: 19
Default Trying to form a Union

Hawke wrote:
"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...
On Feb 10, 11:17 am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
ATP* wrote:

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...
In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes.
Unity
Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com
You'd think that guy would get the hint after a while.

Impossible. If he were that smart he would have never joined a union.
Just plonk the sad, lobotomized ******* and get on with your life.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

************************************************** ***

It is hard to argue with the facts

U.S. workers who belong to unions earn 30 percent more than non-union
workers.

Bureau of Labor Statistics, "Union Members in 2006, Table 2. Median
weekly earnings of full-time wage and salary workers by union
affiliation and selected characteristics." Current Population Survey,
January 2007

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

Don't confuse them with facts. They learned what they know from their
ignorant, biased, racist, fathers at the kitchen table when they were kids
and nothing has changed for them since then. Once these guys are told
something by their daddy they go to their graves believing it no matter what
facts they learn later on in life. I've seen it over and over. It's how
republicans are created. Their dads make them at the kitchen table and
they're set in stone for life.

Hawke


You have made me have an epiphany.
Rabid Union Supporters are the Same as Rabid Welfare Supporters.

Both feel they are entitled to what they get.
Both call you racist and bigoted if you disagree with them.
Both fight tooth and nail to keep everyone on the dole whether they
deserve it or not.
And both get really ****ed off if you try and make them work for the money.


I would rather be paid for skill than seniority.

God what a way to get a promotion, waiting for someone to die or retire.

Thank God Texas is a right to work state.
Everything Ive seen working around unions makes me sick. A group of
people where no one dares to excel, where everyone sinks into mediocrity.

Bill
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Posts: 353
Default Trying to form a Union


"Hawke" wrote in message
...

Sounds like the counter view point is not a union member. How about
some personal experience stories, Roger.

Paul

I was a Union member, have held a couple of voluntary union posts,

became
a
manager and could not retain Union membership. I dont see Unions as a
threat, if you are a proactive manager the bulk of Union "issues" are

non
events as you have already sorted them - eg Health and Safety is a
management task, not a Unions officials. Unions are a fact of life,

good
managers cope with them, just like you deal with customers, suppliers

or
bad
weather. Thats what managers are paid to do, well they do where I

worked.

Some Unions certainly live in the past - notably the ones representing

the
"old" industries (heavy engineering, mining, refining) who have hung

onto
overmanning and under skilling. The Unions that had the foresight to
encourage increased skills (electrical trades for one) and encouraged
employers and employees to adapt to new technology have actually

increased
their membership and the wages and profits of the companies they work
with.

There is an increasing number of employers who see the threat from

third
world countries as a chance to just lower wages and revert to the 19th
Century, rather than develop a skilled, literate and numerate workforce
who
cant be bettered by third world workshops - Boeing, Thales, BAE, etc.

are
good examples. Plus some niche markets - I know of a printer who has
developed security tags for the retail industry, he used to employ

about
ten
printer/labourers, now employs about 50 with electronics backgrounds

who
produce high tech materials.


See, old Tom is against unions for the same reason all management is,

it's
their greed. Unions make companies cough up a share of the profits for

the
workers and that comes out of the pockets of shareholders and

management.
Tom says he would get less for a union company than a non union one.

That's
pretty simple isn't it. It's all about money and the unions having to

force
companies to share the wealth is what it's all about because

corporations
and businesses are always greedy. Look at the writers guild strike that

is
just being settled. The big shots didn't want to cut the writers in on

any
of the profits they were making selling on the internet. The only thing

that
made them relent was a strike. Which just proves that without a union to
bargain for the workers the bosses would screw them just like they did

in
the 1930s. For them nothing has changed. Without unions workers have to
compete against businesses all alone and they get the short end of the

stick
every time. Just like always. It's easy to see why all the right wing
businessmen are anti union isn't it?



Hawke



Once again, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. You have

obviously
never held ANY type of responsible position and have most likely been

protected
by a union that otherwise your lack of marketable skills would have had

you
dismissed from even the most menial jobs. You have NO concept that

companies
DON'T exist for the sole benefit of hired workers. Socialism NEVER worked

in
the past, you think that it'll work THIS time. Fool...



As expected, you couldn't refute what I said so you had no choice but to
assume negative things about me (incorrectly) and make nasty personal
comments. What I said was perfectly true but you didn't like the truth so
you made personal attacks instead. But what else could you do? When you
can't come up with the facts to win an argument use a personal attack. Just
what I thought you would do. Your type is so predictable it's really boring.

Hawke



What you said was crap not truth! And, insulting to anybody that actually
provides jobs and actually has real wealth invested. Your socialist bunk don't
cut it. What makes you think that people are ENTITLED to other people's assets?


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Millwright Ron wrote:

It is hard to argue with the facts

U.S. workers who belong to unions earn 30 percent more than non-union
workers.



Then explain why the highest paying jobs in any company aren't union
jobs. Or can't you deal with the facts?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
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Default Trying to form a Union

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 10:28:30 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Hawke wrote:

And how about asking him how many times the income of his highest paid
worker he makes? As much as he complains about how tough it is for him I
doubt he'd trade places with any of his employees. My dad was the same way
in his business. He bitched and whined about how little he made and how much
the government took from him but he sure made a lot more than anyone that
worked for him.



Hawkie, you're are as clueless as ever. I made more than the union
workers at C.E., because all the union jobs were grunt work. When a
contract ran out, the employees had to interview for the next contract
that was awarded to the company. If there was a gap, they were
unemployed. The QA people could be moved from one project to another,
because it was a management level job, and non-union. I am now 100%
disabled, and have no employees. The US government has declared that I
will never be able to work again.


Now, tell us all. Could you be any more of a loser? Have you ever had
a job, and what kind of work was it?



Spitoon cleaner in a dockside whore house?

Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
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