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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Trying to form a Union
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:01:47 -0800 (PST), Millwright Ron
wrote: ************************************************* **** It is hard to argue with the facts U.S. workers who belong to unions earn 30 percent more than non-union workers. Bureau of Labor Statistics, "Union Members in 2006, Table 2. Median weekly earnings of full-time wage and salary workers by union affiliation and selected characteristics." Current Population Survey, January 2007 Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com Indeed they do. Damn sad they dont actually deserve that 30% Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
#2
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Trying to form a Union
In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against
for trying to form a union every 23 minutes. Unity Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com |
#3
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Trying to form a Union
Millwright Ron wrote:
In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against for trying to form a union every 23 minutes. Every place I've worked at where someone started talking about trying to go union, my response was that I would quit if they succeeded. Jon |
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Trying to form a Union
On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 19:40:20 -0800 (PST), Millwright Ron
wrote: In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against for trying to form a union every 23 minutes. Unity Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com Damit.I thought we had gone to lean manufacturing and had speeded up the process? Lets get our cycle times down to a couple minutes per activist. Gunner |
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Trying to form a Union
"Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against for trying to form a union every 23 minutes. Unity Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com You'd think that guy would get the hint after a while. |
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Trying to form a Union
I'd fire someone that stopped working every 23 minutes and started
talking about something other than his or her job. Millwright Ron wrote: In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against for trying to form a union every 23 minutes. Unity Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com |
#7
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Trying to form a Union
Good one.
"Louis Ohland" wrote in message ... I'd fire someone that stopped working every 23 minutes and started talking about something other than his or her job. Millwright Ron wrote: In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against for trying to form a union every 23 minutes. Unity Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com |
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Trying to form a Union
On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 21:44:48 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm, Jon
Anderson quickly quoth: Millwright Ron wrote: In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against for trying to form a union every 23 minutes. Every place I've worked at where someone started talking about trying to go union, my response was that I would quit if they succeeded. If I had an employee trying to start a union every 23 minutes instead of working, I'd fire his ass, too. titter -- Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do. -- Confucius |
#9
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Trying to form a Union
On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 16:24:34 -0800 (PST), Millwright Ron
wrote: On Feb 12, 3:21*pm, "azotic" wrote: "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... On Feb 12, 11:24 am, "Tom Gardner" wrote: "azotic" wrote in message ... "Hawke" wrote in message ... Unions make companies cough up a share of the profits for the workers and that comes out of the pockets of shareholders and management. If workers want to share in the profits they can simply become shareholders themselves. Best Regards Tom. Drum roll please! ************************************************** ************** Here is your Drum Roll "We are living in the most selfish generation in the history of this country," *"Their agenda is a race to the bottom line of cheap wages, a race to the bottom of retirement and health care and education." "How can you as a CEO take a huge bonus and then five months later watch your pensions fall apart?" he asked. "What has to be inside such a person?" GREED Ton knows Best Millwright Ron Your right all those greedy workers that have 401K's and self directed IRA's are demanding higher profits. Wanna bet some of those greedy *******s are union members ? Best Regards Tom. Proud to be a CEO union member.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - ************************************************* ******************* Toxic People: We have met them in the hallways of our workplaces -- the "toxic" people, poisoning the work environment with their anger or cynicism or excessive criticism of others. You can identify them since they act as if the only agenda that matters is their own personal agenda, and the only time that counts is theirs. We know them by their rudeness in meetings, or their inability to find the good in any ideas other than their own, or their laser- like ability to find fault without seeming to ever give credit. The world revolves around them and they are unwilling to really examine the impact of their behavior on others. These people are "toxic" in that their impact on those around them, especially when in critical positions of responsibility, is that they poison trust, trample good will, destroy self-esteem and rot the fabric of teamwork. They cost industry and government billions of dollars in lost opportunities, re-work, extra sick leave and errors they engender due to the problems in communication, lowered collaboration, mistrust, frustration and fear in their wake. What gives? Can't they and the powers that be see the effects of their toxicity? Why are they tolerated, and how in the heck did they get to be where they are today? The answer is that if you were a star producer, or very bright and capable, working hard and getting results then you were often promoted in spite of the way you treated other people or damaged working relationships around you. After all, we traditionally have measured how long you worked and what you were able to accomplish with little attention on how you helped or hurt the working relationships, trust and collaborative networks around you. This was poor management and even poorer leadership. In the words of Jack Welch, the recently retired CEO of GE, "We must insist on people keeping their commitments (getting results) as well as those who demonstrate the values (valuing relationship development.)" He further stated that those who only got the results but damaged relationships consistently were like a cancer in an organization. Yet, the days of the toxic individual are numbered. There is increasingly less tolerance for their fits of temper or constant criticism or inflated self-importance or disrespectful behavior. The reasons are two fold. First, as all of us have noticed, the world is changing dramatically. The global marketplace is more dynamic, demanding and less tolerant of mistakes and those who are slow to assimilate lessons or to adapt to changing conditions and customer demands. Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com So whats the MDS on Unions? "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
#10
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Trying to form a Union
Six times down, the seventh up.
Larry Jaques wrote: Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do. -- Confucius |
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Trying to form a Union
"ATP*" wrote in message
... "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against for trying to form a union every 23 minutes. Unity Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com You'd think that guy would get the hint after a while. I don't think these union snobs are sharp enough to get it! For the last 2-3 years the local sheet metal union has been trying to sell our shop on going union. He stops in, talks to our guys in the AM, hands out pamphlets at the gate. One Friday after work he brought in pizza and pop to get us to stay and talk. About 1/2 the workers stayed, and most of them were there for the free food only. Once the food was gone, he was still talking, and they walked out. The other day we were all invited to a local bar, free beer and appetizers. A couple guys showed up. I would have showed too, the bar has great food, (who does not like good, free food), but I had other plans. The owner of the shop has invited the union in to talk the the workers, sets up dates, and nobody shows up, except for a couple guys. On the flip side, we have a plumbing shop that is union. When we get caught up with work they are the first to get laid off while us non-union workers get put to work cleaning an reorganizing the shop at regular pay. Allot of good the union does there! Greg |
#12
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Trying to shill for unions
Millwright Wrong wrote in article ... In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against for trying to form a union every 23 minutes. Millwright Wrong union shill If you ask me, that's FAR too lenient. The SOBs ought to be shot!!!! Ask ANYBODY who has worked in both union and non-union shops and they will tell you that their angriest co-workers were the union idiots who allow the union brass to convince them that things are, somehow, worse than they actually are. I'd rather spend my own money on myself instead of paying for some union president and a few of his goons to vacation in the tropics. |
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Trying to form a Union
Interesting viewpoints, my counter viewpoint.
Historically the Union movement has created some of the great social advances in the OECD countries - try universal free education was Union inspired, universal health coverage (still a dream in the US) came from the health cooperatives setup by miners in Germany and Wales. Most health, safety and environment legislation was drafted by the union movements who often have a wider view of whats happening. The UKs clean Air/clean Water legislation came from the Labour movement post WW2. Practically every OECD country has examples of Unions enabling a better way of life, not just for employees but for the wider population. The other thing that a lot of employers fail to realise that in many instances having a Unionised workforce is actually easier to administer - one collective agreement instead of individual contracts - usually where more than 50 employees are concerned. Australia introduced Union busting legislation about 3 years ago, forcing individual contracts of employment. Industrial accidents have dramatically increased over the last 2 years, one industry has had 23 fatalities since Jan 1 this year because of the piece rate payment methods that encourage employees to cut corners but indemnify the employer from unsafe work practices. Fortunately the new Government will be rescinding the legislation. |
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Trying to form a Union
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 03:25:10 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote: Hawke wrote: We get your point. But you could have said the same thing in a lot fewer words. I think I can be a little more concise. What you are trying to say is that Tom and other businessmen like him are "dicks". Like most bosses he's a self centered, petty, tyrant. He cares more about himself and his money than anything else in the world especially other people. He has little sympathy for workers and sees them as being members of an inferior class. Quite simply, he's a dick. That about covers it. One sure way of knowing he's a dick is that he probably voted for George Bush too. Hawke You sure spend a lot of time thinking about dicks, pervert. Didnt you know? The Parakeet is a 20 yr old fagboi who lives in his mothers basement and has these delusions that he knows "dick" in other than the swallowing mode. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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Trying to form a Union
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 03:27:33 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote: Hawke wrote: Why should they have to become shareholders to share in the profits? After all it's the workers who make the products and provide the services that creates the profits to begin with. We all know it's not the owners and management who actually produce anything. Workers should profit from what they contribute to the success of the business and without them there is no business. The Hollywood producers just found that out. No writers, no makie money. No workers, no makie money. Owners just don't want to be fair they want the workers to do all the work and give them nothing so they can keep all the profits for themselves. That isn't exactly a secret. It's been going on for centuries. Idiot. those workers didn't raise the capital, or spend years building the business, unless it is employee owned. They get what they deserve. No more and no less. Not one of them would take those risks, or they would own a business, not work for it. The workers perform a service, for which they are renumerated at a mutally agreed upon rate. They provide a service for which someone else is willing to pay a certain amount. The Parakeet and the other closet socialists like Millwrong Ron believe that if you pay to get your carpets cleaned, the carpet cleaning company now deserves a financial interest in your house. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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Trying to form a Union
On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 21:44:48 -0800, Jon Anderson
wrote: Millwright Ron wrote: In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against for trying to form a union every 23 minutes. Every place I've worked at where someone started talking about trying to go union, my response was that I would quit if they succeeded. Every place I've ever worked that was union, the usual reason was that the Management is (or was at one time, or is perceived to be) abusive to the employees and DESERVED to be saddled with a Union to get proper treatment. Or it is a job with significant workplace hazards, and the employer paid lip-service to safety and treated all employees as 'disposable assets' till the Union got in and forced reforms. Problem with that is, now that the Union is firmly entrenched in the abusive workplace the cure turns out to be as bad as the disease, if not worse. The Shop Stewards and Union Local Officials usually turn out to be the biggest Fsck-ups in the whole place, because they know they can almost literally get away with murder. One Shop Steward left his empty little 1/2 Ounce brown glass screw-top bottle (that had his daily Nose Candy in it) on the dashboard of a communal parked truck at a Shiftwork manhole cable splicing job, and damn near got everyone working at the site (three shifts round the clock) hauled in to pee in a bottle. Luckily, the Supervisor realized what was really going on and pragmatically developed a case of temporary amnesia... Another Steward got busted, arrested and fired for drugs - but they kept him on the payroll 100% at the Local doing office work until all the appeals were exhausted, and even past that until the complaints got too loud... Apparently, between the Co. pay and the Union pay, they were being paid too much, and had to spread around the largesse to support their local drug dealer. The pendulum swings... Then it swings back... Forward... Back... -- Bruce -- |
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Trying to form a Union
On Feb 9, 12:29 pm, "Roger" wrote:
Interesting viewpoints, my counter viewpoint. Historically the Union movement has created some of the great social advances in the OECD countries - try universal free education was Union inspired, universal health coverage (still a dream in the US) came from the health cooperatives setup by miners in Germany and Wales. Most health, safety and environment legislation was drafted by the union movements who often have a wider view of whats happening. The UKs clean Air/clean Water legislation came from the Labour movement post WW2. Practically every OECD country has examples of Unions enabling a better way of life, not just for employees but for the wider population. The other thing that a lot of employers fail to realise that in many instances having a Unionised workforce is actually easier to administer - one collective agreement instead of individual contracts - usually where more than 50 employees are concerned. Australia introduced Union busting legislation about 3 years ago, forcing individual contracts of employment. Industrial accidents have dramatically increased over the last 2 years, one industry has had 23 fatalities since Jan 1 this year because of the piece rate payment methods that encourage employees to cut corners but indemnify the employer from unsafe work practices. Fortunately the new Government will be rescinding the legislation. Sounds like the counter view point is not a union member. How about some personal experience stories, Roger. Paul |
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Trying to form a Union
"Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against for trying to form a union every 23 minutes. Unity Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com ....and, every 23 minutes a manufacturing firm fractures it's activities and outsources some jobs overseas. Every 23 minutes a number of union jobs are replaced with automation. Every 23 minutes a union lowers the bar for excellence in manufacturing to the point of drug and alcohol saturated union employees, secure in their employment, set the standard. I went from a high of 80 employees twenty years ago to 15 today and doubled sales. Motivated by a parasitic union, our thrust into automation in addition to outsourcing to non-union companies has eliminated these union jobs. The last machine we built will eliminated another union job and the next will eliminate two more. The union has priced themselves right out of the job market! I wish I could eliminate a union job every 23 minutes! Hurray for unions!!! |
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Trying to form a Union
Sounds like the counter view point is not a union member. How about some personal experience stories, Roger. Paul I was a Union member, have held a couple of voluntary union posts, became a manager and could not retain Union membership. I dont see Unions as a threat, if you are a proactive manager the bulk of Union "issues" are non events as you have already sorted them - eg Health and Safety is a management task, not a Unions officials. Unions are a fact of life, good managers cope with them, just like you deal with customers, suppliers or bad weather. Thats what managers are paid to do, well they do where I worked. Some Unions certainly live in the past - notably the ones representing the "old" industries (heavy engineering, mining, refining) who have hung onto overmanning and under skilling. The Unions that had the foresight to encourage increased skills (electrical trades for one) and encouraged employers and employees to adapt to new technology have actually increased their membership and the wages and profits of the companies they work with. There is an increasing number of employers who see the threat from third world countries as a chance to just lower wages and revert to the 19th Century, rather than develop a skilled, literate and numerate workforce who cant be bettered by third world workshops - Boeing, Thales, BAE, etc. are good examples. Plus some niche markets - I know of a printer who has developed security tags for the retail industry, he used to employ about ten printer/labourers, now employs about 50 with electronics backgrounds who produce high tech materials. |
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Trying to form a Union
"Tom Gardner" wrote:
I went from a high of 80 employees twenty years ago to 15 today and doubled sales. Motivated by a parasitic union, our thrust into automation in addition to outsourcing to non-union companies has eliminated these union jobs. The last machine we built will eliminated another union job and the next will eliminate two more. The union has priced themselves right out of the job market! I wish I could eliminate a union job every 23 minutes! Hurray for unions!!! My first serious encounter with automation was when an engineer bought a used GMF (GM Fanuc) robot to perform a task with out realizing that actually getting it to do the task was outside his skill set. Being a former radar tech and a computer geek (pre-msdos), getting it to work was interesting but not terribly challenging. That marriage of General Motors and Fanuc was one of GM's investments designed to get many high priced bodies out of their factories. It is a fact of life that a workers wage + benefits x number of shifts x pay back period is the budget for eliminating that job. Which is why you always want to upgrade your skills. Wes |
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Trying to form a Union
As Tony Saprano would say "ounce ya's in theres no getin out"
Millwright Ron wrote: In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against for trying to form a union every 23 minutes. Unity Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com |
#22
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Trying to form a Union
ATP* wrote:
"Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against for trying to form a union every 23 minutes. Unity Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com You'd think that guy would get the hint after a while. Impossible. If he were that smart he would have never joined a union. Just plonk the sad, lobotomized ******* and get on with your life. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#23
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Trying to form a Union
"Roger" wrote in message news Sounds like the counter view point is not a union member. How about some personal experience stories, Roger. Paul I was a Union member, have held a couple of voluntary union posts, became a manager and could not retain Union membership. I dont see Unions as a threat, if you are a proactive manager the bulk of Union "issues" are non events as you have already sorted them - eg Health and Safety is a management task, not a Unions officials. Unions are a fact of life, good managers cope with them, just like you deal with customers, suppliers or bad weather. Thats what managers are paid to do, well they do where I worked. Some Unions certainly live in the past - notably the ones representing the "old" industries (heavy engineering, mining, refining) who have hung onto overmanning and under skilling. The Unions that had the foresight to encourage increased skills (electrical trades for one) and encouraged employers and employees to adapt to new technology have actually increased their membership and the wages and profits of the companies they work with. There is an increasing number of employers who see the threat from third world countries as a chance to just lower wages and revert to the 19th Century, rather than develop a skilled, literate and numerate workforce who cant be bettered by third world workshops - Boeing, Thales, BAE, etc. are good examples. Plus some niche markets - I know of a printer who has developed security tags for the retail industry, he used to employ about ten printer/labourers, now employs about 50 with electronics backgrounds who produce high tech materials. My union isn't really a problem but I was told that when I go to sell the company, I can expect 20% less than if I didn't have a union. |
#24
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Trying to form a Union
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message . net... "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against for trying to form a union every 23 minutes. Unity Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com ...and, every 23 minutes a manufacturing firm fractures it's activities and outsources some jobs overseas. Every 23 minutes a number of union jobs are replaced with automation. Every 23 minutes a union lowers the bar for excellence in manufacturing to the point of drug and alcohol saturated union employees, secure in their employment, set the standard. I went from a high of 80 employees twenty years ago to 15 today and doubled sales. Motivated by a parasitic union, our thrust into automation in addition to outsourcing to non-union companies has eliminated these union jobs. The last machine we built will eliminated another union job and the next will eliminate two more. The union has priced themselves right out of the job market! I wish I could eliminate a union job every 23 minutes! Hurray for unions!!! Yes, that's right, blame the union any time you can. Maybe if you and others in management work hard enough you can eliminate unions altogether. That's been the goal and desire of management for 100 years. Like your predecessors you are still at it. I'm sure you would be glad to hire people if they just hadn't priced themselves out of work. Say if they would work for you for three dollars an hour or so and without benefits then you would be hiring instead of firing. Oh for the good old days of 1.35 an hour minimum wage. Just like a conservative, wanting to return to some magical time when the world was better. What a fairy tale. Just like your entire anti union rantings. Hawke |
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Trying to form a Union
"Roger" wrote in message news Sounds like the counter view point is not a union member. How about some personal experience stories, Roger. Paul I was a Union member, have held a couple of voluntary union posts, became a manager and could not retain Union membership. I dont see Unions as a threat, if you are a proactive manager the bulk of Union "issues" are non events as you have already sorted them - eg Health and Safety is a management task, not a Unions officials. Unions are a fact of life, good managers cope with them, just like you deal with customers, suppliers or bad weather. Thats what managers are paid to do, well they do where I worked. Some Unions certainly live in the past - notably the ones representing the "old" industries (heavy engineering, mining, refining) who have hung onto overmanning and under skilling. The Unions that had the foresight to encourage increased skills (electrical trades for one) and encouraged employers and employees to adapt to new technology have actually increased their membership and the wages and profits of the companies they work with. There is an increasing number of employers who see the threat from third world countries as a chance to just lower wages and revert to the 19th Century, rather than develop a skilled, literate and numerate workforce who cant be bettered by third world workshops - Boeing, Thales, BAE, etc. are good examples. Plus some niche markets - I know of a printer who has developed security tags for the retail industry, he used to employ about ten printer/labourers, now employs about 50 with electronics backgrounds who produce high tech materials. See, old Tom is against unions for the same reason all management is, it's their greed. Unions make companies cough up a share of the profits for the workers and that comes out of the pockets of shareholders and management. Tom says he would get less for a union company than a non union one. That's pretty simple isn't it. It's all about money and the unions having to force companies to share the wealth is what it's all about because corporations and businesses are always greedy. Look at the writers guild strike that is just being settled. The big shots didn't want to cut the writers in on any of the profits they were making selling on the internet. The only thing that made them relent was a strike. Which just proves that without a union to bargain for the workers the bosses would screw them just like they did in the 1930s. For them nothing has changed. Without unions workers have to compete against businesses all alone and they get the short end of the stick every time. Just like always. It's easy to see why all the right wing businessmen are anti union isn't it? Hawke |
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Trying to form a Union
"Hawke" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message . net... "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against for trying to form a union every 23 minutes. Unity Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com ...and, every 23 minutes a manufacturing firm fractures it's activities and outsources some jobs overseas. Every 23 minutes a number of union jobs are replaced with automation. Every 23 minutes a union lowers the bar for excellence in manufacturing to the point of drug and alcohol saturated union employees, secure in their employment, set the standard. I went from a high of 80 employees twenty years ago to 15 today and doubled sales. Motivated by a parasitic union, our thrust into automation in addition to outsourcing to non-union companies has eliminated these union jobs. The last machine we built will eliminated another union job and the next will eliminate two more. The union has priced themselves right out of the job market! I wish I could eliminate a union job every 23 minutes! Hurray for unions!!! Yes, that's right, blame the union any time you can. Maybe if you and others in management work hard enough you can eliminate unions altogether That would be wonderful. |
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Trying to form a Union
"Hawke" wrote in message ... "Roger" wrote in message news Sounds like the counter view point is not a union member. How about some personal experience stories, Roger. Paul I was a Union member, have held a couple of voluntary union posts, became a manager and could not retain Union membership. I dont see Unions as a threat, if you are a proactive manager the bulk of Union "issues" are non events as you have already sorted them - eg Health and Safety is a management task, not a Unions officials. Unions are a fact of life, good managers cope with them, just like you deal with customers, suppliers or bad weather. Thats what managers are paid to do, well they do where I worked. Some Unions certainly live in the past - notably the ones representing the "old" industries (heavy engineering, mining, refining) who have hung onto overmanning and under skilling. The Unions that had the foresight to encourage increased skills (electrical trades for one) and encouraged employers and employees to adapt to new technology have actually increased their membership and the wages and profits of the companies they work with. There is an increasing number of employers who see the threat from third world countries as a chance to just lower wages and revert to the 19th Century, rather than develop a skilled, literate and numerate workforce who cant be bettered by third world workshops - Boeing, Thales, BAE, etc. are good examples. Plus some niche markets - I know of a printer who has developed security tags for the retail industry, he used to employ about ten printer/labourers, now employs about 50 with electronics backgrounds who produce high tech materials. See, old Tom is against unions for the same reason all management is, it's their greed. Unions make companies cough up a share of the profits for the workers and that comes out of the pockets of shareholders and management. Tom says he would get less for a union company than a non union one. That's pretty simple isn't it. It's all about money and the unions having to force companies to share the wealth is what it's all about because corporations and businesses are always greedy. Look at the writers guild strike that is just being settled. The big shots didn't want to cut the writers in on any of the profits they were making selling on the internet. The only thing that made them relent was a strike. Which just proves that without a union to bargain for the workers the bosses would screw them just like they did in the 1930s. For them nothing has changed. Without unions workers have to compete against businesses all alone and they get the short end of the stick every time. Just like always. It's easy to see why all the right wing businessmen are anti union isn't it? Hawke Once again, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. You have obviously never held ANY type of responsible position and have most likely been protected by a union that otherwise your lack of marketable skills would have had you dismissed from even the most menial jobs. You have NO concept that companies DON'T exist for the sole benefit of hired workers. Socialism NEVER worked in the past, you think that it'll work THIS time. Fool... |
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Trying to form a Union
"Hawke" wrote in message ... "Tom Gardner" wrote in message . net... "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against for trying to form a union every 23 minutes. Unity Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com ...and, every 23 minutes a manufacturing firm fractures it's activities and outsources some jobs overseas. Every 23 minutes a number of union jobs are replaced with automation. Every 23 minutes a union lowers the bar for excellence in manufacturing to the point of drug and alcohol saturated union employees, secure in their employment, set the standard. I went from a high of 80 employees twenty years ago to 15 today and doubled sales. Motivated by a parasitic union, our thrust into automation in addition to outsourcing to non-union companies has eliminated these union jobs. The last machine we built will eliminated another union job and the next will eliminate two more. The union has priced themselves right out of the job market! I wish I could eliminate a union job every 23 minutes! Hurray for unions!!! Yes, that's right, blame the union any time you can. Maybe if you and others in management work hard enough you can eliminate unions altogether. That's been the goal and desire of management for 100 years. Like your predecessors you are still at it. I'm sure you would be glad to hire people if they just hadn't priced themselves out of work. Say if they would work for you for three dollars an hour or so and without benefits then you would be hiring instead of firing. Oh for the good old days of 1.35 an hour minimum wage. Just like a conservative, wanting to return to some magical time when the world was better. What a fairy tale. Just like your entire anti union rantings. Hawke Like I should pay $50,000 for somebody to sweep on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Or, pay $100 labor for $80 worth of salable goods. You'd starve if you had to rely on your skills to eat. Go check the tire pressure on your house! |
#29
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Trying to form a Union
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message ... "Roger" wrote in message news Sounds like the counter view point is not a union member. How about some personal experience stories, Roger. Paul I was a Union member, have held a couple of voluntary union posts, became a manager and could not retain Union membership. I dont see Unions as a threat, if you are a proactive manager the bulk of Union "issues" are non events as you have already sorted them - eg Health and Safety is a management task, not a Unions officials. Unions are a fact of life, good managers cope with them, just like you deal with customers, suppliers or bad weather. Thats what managers are paid to do, well they do where I worked. Some Unions certainly live in the past - notably the ones representing the "old" industries (heavy engineering, mining, refining) who have hung onto overmanning and under skilling. The Unions that had the foresight to encourage increased skills (electrical trades for one) and encouraged employers and employees to adapt to new technology have actually increased their membership and the wages and profits of the companies they work with. There is an increasing number of employers who see the threat from third world countries as a chance to just lower wages and revert to the 19th Century, rather than develop a skilled, literate and numerate workforce who cant be bettered by third world workshops - Boeing, Thales, BAE, etc. are good examples. Plus some niche markets - I know of a printer who has developed security tags for the retail industry, he used to employ about ten printer/labourers, now employs about 50 with electronics backgrounds who produce high tech materials. My union isn't really a problem but I was told that when I go to sell the company, I can expect 20% less than if I didn't have a union. I am surprised that anyone buying a business would even include union representation in their calculations, accountants usually look at the balance sheet with a 5 year or less payback on the capital outlay plus a 15% return or better on the capital as operating profit each year. If you are getting less than that its not a business, its an expensive hobby. Its interesting how poorly performing businesses focus on labour costs, when the costs of labour may only be 10% or less of the turnover for the business. But the managers think nothing of carrying inventory worth more than the annual wages bill, or persist with machines made in the 1950s. They cut labour costs relentlessly, the numbers look big, but they have minimal impact on the profits of the company (cutting 10% off wages will have a less than 1% impact on profits if wages are 10% of turnover - assuming turnover stays the same). Get back to manufacturing basics, read Juran - learn how he took Japan (and Asia) from an industrial wreck in 1945 into the power house it is today. Its not new, an American industrial engineer turned Japan around with 1940s wartime US production methods, but is almost unknown and unread in the USA. |
#30
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Trying to form a Union
On Feb 10, 11:17*am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote: ATP* wrote: "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against for trying to form a union every 23 minutes. Unity Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com You'd think that guy would get the hint after a while. * Impossible. If he were that smart he would have never joined a union. Just plonk the sad, lobotomized ******* and get on with your life. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida ************************************************** *** It is hard to argue with the facts U.S. workers who belong to unions earn 30 percent more than non-union workers. Bureau of Labor Statistics, "Union Members in 2006, Table 2. Median weekly earnings of full-time wage and salary workers by union affiliation and selected characteristics." Current Population Survey, January 2007 Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com |
#31
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Trying to form a Union
"Roger" wrote in message news snip I am surprised that anyone buying a business would even include union representation in their calculations, accountants usually look at the balance sheet with a 5 year or less payback on the capital outlay plus a 15% return or better on the capital as operating profit each year. If you are getting less than that its not a business, its an expensive hobby. Return on capital is not return on sales, you didn't make that point clear. How could you possibly think that a union isn't a negative to potential buyers? Get back to manufacturing basics, read Juran - learn how he took Japan (and Asia) from an industrial wreck in 1945 into the power house it is today. Its not new, an American industrial engineer turned Japan around with 1940s wartime US production methods, but is almost unknown and unread in the USA. During the 1980's Japan was seen to be a manufacturing powerhouse while American industry was struggling to keep pace. It was strongly believed that Japanese manufacturing techniques were uniquely developed for and suited to the Japanese culture, and thus unsuited for American culture. The release of the whitepaper showed that the Japanese techniques were, in fact, taught to Japanese manufacturers by an W. Edwards Deming, whose beliefs had been largely ignored by American management. Deming had a LOT more to do with the reformation of Japan's manufacturing and their production philosophy! |
#32
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Trying to form a Union
On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 17:58:05 +0530, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 17:01:47 -0800 (PST), Millwright Ron wrote: It is hard to argue with the facts U.S. workers who belong to unions earn 30 percent more than non-union workers. Indeed they do. Damn sad they dont actually deserve that 30% I wonder if Ron has examples of senior IT professionals making this alleged 30% bump. I'm guessing not. |
#33
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Trying to form a Union
So how many jobs are cut due to employers having to pay union wages?
How much automation is trying to reduce the cost of union workers? Millwright Ron wrote: It is hard to argue with the facts U.S. workers who belong to unions earn 30 percent more than non-union workers. |
#34
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Trying to form a Union
Millwright Ron wrote:
It is hard to argue with the facts U.S. workers who belong to unions earn 30 percent more than non-union workers. Those union workers that still have jobs that is.... Jon |
#35
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Trying to form a Union
Sounds like the counter view point is not a union member. How about some personal experience stories, Roger. Paul I was a Union member, have held a couple of voluntary union posts, became a manager and could not retain Union membership. I dont see Unions as a threat, if you are a proactive manager the bulk of Union "issues" are non events as you have already sorted them - eg Health and Safety is a management task, not a Unions officials. Unions are a fact of life, good managers cope with them, just like you deal with customers, suppliers or bad weather. Thats what managers are paid to do, well they do where I worked. Some Unions certainly live in the past - notably the ones representing the "old" industries (heavy engineering, mining, refining) who have hung onto overmanning and under skilling. The Unions that had the foresight to encourage increased skills (electrical trades for one) and encouraged employers and employees to adapt to new technology have actually increased their membership and the wages and profits of the companies they work with. There is an increasing number of employers who see the threat from third world countries as a chance to just lower wages and revert to the 19th Century, rather than develop a skilled, literate and numerate workforce who cant be bettered by third world workshops - Boeing, Thales, BAE, etc. are good examples. Plus some niche markets - I know of a printer who has developed security tags for the retail industry, he used to employ about ten printer/labourers, now employs about 50 with electronics backgrounds who produce high tech materials. See, old Tom is against unions for the same reason all management is, it's their greed. Unions make companies cough up a share of the profits for the workers and that comes out of the pockets of shareholders and management. Tom says he would get less for a union company than a non union one. That's pretty simple isn't it. It's all about money and the unions having to force companies to share the wealth is what it's all about because corporations and businesses are always greedy. Look at the writers guild strike that is just being settled. The big shots didn't want to cut the writers in on any of the profits they were making selling on the internet. The only thing that made them relent was a strike. Which just proves that without a union to bargain for the workers the bosses would screw them just like they did in the 1930s. For them nothing has changed. Without unions workers have to compete against businesses all alone and they get the short end of the stick every time. Just like always. It's easy to see why all the right wing businessmen are anti union isn't it? Hawke Once again, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. You have obviously never held ANY type of responsible position and have most likely been protected by a union that otherwise your lack of marketable skills would have had you dismissed from even the most menial jobs. You have NO concept that companies DON'T exist for the sole benefit of hired workers. Socialism NEVER worked in the past, you think that it'll work THIS time. Fool... As expected, you couldn't refute what I said so you had no choice but to assume negative things about me (incorrectly) and make nasty personal comments. What I said was perfectly true but you didn't like the truth so you made personal attacks instead. But what else could you do? When you can't come up with the facts to win an argument use a personal attack. Just what I thought you would do. Your type is so predictable it's really boring. Hawke |
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Trying to form a Union
"Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... On Feb 10, 11:17 am, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: ATP* wrote: "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against for trying to form a union every 23 minutes. Unity Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com You'd think that guy would get the hint after a while. Impossible. If he were that smart he would have never joined a union. Just plonk the sad, lobotomized ******* and get on with your life. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida ************************************************** *** It is hard to argue with the facts U.S. workers who belong to unions earn 30 percent more than non-union workers. Bureau of Labor Statistics, "Union Members in 2006, Table 2. Median weekly earnings of full-time wage and salary workers by union affiliation and selected characteristics." Current Population Survey, January 2007 Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com Don't confuse them with facts. They learned what they know from their ignorant, biased, racist, fathers at the kitchen table when they were kids and nothing has changed for them since then. Once these guys are told something by their daddy they go to their graves believing it no matter what facts they learn later on in life. I've seen it over and over. It's how republicans are created. Their dads make them at the kitchen table and they're set in stone for life. Hawke |
#37
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Trying to form a Union
Hawke wrote:
"Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... On Feb 10, 11:17 am, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: ATP* wrote: "Millwright Ron" wrote in message ... In the United States today, a worker is fired or discriminated against for trying to form a union every 23 minutes. Unity Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com You'd think that guy would get the hint after a while. Impossible. If he were that smart he would have never joined a union. Just plonk the sad, lobotomized ******* and get on with your life. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida ************************************************** *** It is hard to argue with the facts U.S. workers who belong to unions earn 30 percent more than non-union workers. Bureau of Labor Statistics, "Union Members in 2006, Table 2. Median weekly earnings of full-time wage and salary workers by union affiliation and selected characteristics." Current Population Survey, January 2007 Millwright Ron www.unionmillwright.com Don't confuse them with facts. They learned what they know from their ignorant, biased, racist, fathers at the kitchen table when they were kids and nothing has changed for them since then. Once these guys are told something by their daddy they go to their graves believing it no matter what facts they learn later on in life. I've seen it over and over. It's how republicans are created. Their dads make them at the kitchen table and they're set in stone for life. Hawke You have made me have an epiphany. Rabid Union Supporters are the Same as Rabid Welfare Supporters. Both feel they are entitled to what they get. Both call you racist and bigoted if you disagree with them. Both fight tooth and nail to keep everyone on the dole whether they deserve it or not. And both get really ****ed off if you try and make them work for the money. I would rather be paid for skill than seniority. God what a way to get a promotion, waiting for someone to die or retire. Thank God Texas is a right to work state. Everything Ive seen working around unions makes me sick. A group of people where no one dares to excel, where everyone sinks into mediocrity. Bill |
#38
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Trying to form a Union
"Hawke" wrote in message ... Sounds like the counter view point is not a union member. How about some personal experience stories, Roger. Paul I was a Union member, have held a couple of voluntary union posts, became a manager and could not retain Union membership. I dont see Unions as a threat, if you are a proactive manager the bulk of Union "issues" are non events as you have already sorted them - eg Health and Safety is a management task, not a Unions officials. Unions are a fact of life, good managers cope with them, just like you deal with customers, suppliers or bad weather. Thats what managers are paid to do, well they do where I worked. Some Unions certainly live in the past - notably the ones representing the "old" industries (heavy engineering, mining, refining) who have hung onto overmanning and under skilling. The Unions that had the foresight to encourage increased skills (electrical trades for one) and encouraged employers and employees to adapt to new technology have actually increased their membership and the wages and profits of the companies they work with. There is an increasing number of employers who see the threat from third world countries as a chance to just lower wages and revert to the 19th Century, rather than develop a skilled, literate and numerate workforce who cant be bettered by third world workshops - Boeing, Thales, BAE, etc. are good examples. Plus some niche markets - I know of a printer who has developed security tags for the retail industry, he used to employ about ten printer/labourers, now employs about 50 with electronics backgrounds who produce high tech materials. See, old Tom is against unions for the same reason all management is, it's their greed. Unions make companies cough up a share of the profits for the workers and that comes out of the pockets of shareholders and management. Tom says he would get less for a union company than a non union one. That's pretty simple isn't it. It's all about money and the unions having to force companies to share the wealth is what it's all about because corporations and businesses are always greedy. Look at the writers guild strike that is just being settled. The big shots didn't want to cut the writers in on any of the profits they were making selling on the internet. The only thing that made them relent was a strike. Which just proves that without a union to bargain for the workers the bosses would screw them just like they did in the 1930s. For them nothing has changed. Without unions workers have to compete against businesses all alone and they get the short end of the stick every time. Just like always. It's easy to see why all the right wing businessmen are anti union isn't it? Hawke Once again, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. You have obviously never held ANY type of responsible position and have most likely been protected by a union that otherwise your lack of marketable skills would have had you dismissed from even the most menial jobs. You have NO concept that companies DON'T exist for the sole benefit of hired workers. Socialism NEVER worked in the past, you think that it'll work THIS time. Fool... As expected, you couldn't refute what I said so you had no choice but to assume negative things about me (incorrectly) and make nasty personal comments. What I said was perfectly true but you didn't like the truth so you made personal attacks instead. But what else could you do? When you can't come up with the facts to win an argument use a personal attack. Just what I thought you would do. Your type is so predictable it's really boring. Hawke What you said was crap not truth! And, insulting to anybody that actually provides jobs and actually has real wealth invested. Your socialist bunk don't cut it. What makes you think that people are ENTITLED to other people's assets? |
#39
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Trying to form a Union
Millwright Ron wrote:
It is hard to argue with the facts U.S. workers who belong to unions earn 30 percent more than non-union workers. Then explain why the highest paying jobs in any company aren't union jobs. Or can't you deal with the facts? -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
#40
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Trying to form a Union
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 10:28:30 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote: Hawke wrote: And how about asking him how many times the income of his highest paid worker he makes? As much as he complains about how tough it is for him I doubt he'd trade places with any of his employees. My dad was the same way in his business. He bitched and whined about how little he made and how much the government took from him but he sure made a lot more than anyone that worked for him. Hawkie, you're are as clueless as ever. I made more than the union workers at C.E., because all the union jobs were grunt work. When a contract ran out, the employees had to interview for the next contract that was awarded to the company. If there was a gap, they were unemployed. The QA people could be moved from one project to another, because it was a management level job, and non-union. I am now 100% disabled, and have no employees. The US government has declared that I will never be able to work again. Now, tell us all. Could you be any more of a loser? Have you ever had a job, and what kind of work was it? Spitoon cleaner in a dockside whore house? Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
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