Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards

Today, my 1994 Clausing 12x37 clone metal lathe has stopped turning off with the lever switch on the apron. I can
switch from forward to neutral to reverse and hear relays at the front lever switch work each time, but it keeps running
forward. If I want to stop it I have to hit the emergency button. This is at least aggravating. But, I can get stuff
done as long as I don't need it to run backwards.

My problem right now is I'm all set up to run backwards for a threading operation that I'm uncomfortable running
forward. The lathe will only go forward and starts right up with the apron lever in the neutral position when the start
button is pressed. It still will not start in the forward and reverse apron lever position, as it's not supposed to.
But if it's in the apron neutral position it will start running forward when the start button is pushed. Cycling the
power off and back on does not effect this behavior.

It has happened before and not really been a problem. And, maybe I can let the thing cool down and get these threads
cut later tonight or tomorrow. But, I need to eventually fix the problem.

There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch
in the front controlled by the apron lever. Its a pretty complicated bunch of wiring.

Please help, I do not know how to diagnose this?

Thanks,

Fred

On Feb 2, 4:36�pm, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote:
Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards

There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch
in the front controlled by the apron lever. �Its a pretty complicated bunch of wiring.

Please help, I do not know how to diagnose this?

Fred

WHATEVER YOU DO REMOVE THE POWER BEFORE DOING ANYTHING

Single Phase or Three Phase?

Whatever electrical component shifts the wiring to reverse seems to be
stuck in the forward position. Perhaps the reversing switch handle has
become free of the electrical contacts inside the reversing switch. OR
since you mention there being relays in a box along with the
"complicated wiring" there is a one or more relays perhaps stuck in
the operating position.

AFTER REMOVING POWER check the relays to determine whether the
armature, the thing that moves along with the contacts, actually moves
and the contacts associated with the armature move with them.

My best guess. There is a relay associated with reversing that is
stuck in the operating or energized position.

What Zip Code is the lathe at?

Bob AZ

On Feb 2, 6:36*pm, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote:
Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards

Today, my 1994 Clausing 12x37 clone metal lathe has stopped turning off with the lever switch on the apron. *I can
switch from forward to neutral to reverse and hear relays at the front lever switch work each time, but it keeps running
forward. *If I want to stop it I have to hit the emergency button. *This is at least aggravating. *But, I can get stuff
done as long as I don't need it to run backwards.

My problem right now is I'm all set up to run backwards for a threading operation that I'm uncomfortable running
forward. *The lathe will only go forward and starts right up with the apron lever in the neutral position when the start
button is pressed. *It still will not start in the forward and reverse apron lever position, as it's not supposed to.
But if it's in the apron neutral position it will start running forward when the start button is pushed. *Cycling the
power off and back on does not effect this behavior.

It has happened before and not really been a problem. *And, maybe I can let the thing cool down and get these threads
cut later tonight or tomorrow. *But, I need to eventually fix the problem.

There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch
in the front controlled by the apron lever. *Its a pretty complicated bunch of wiring.

Please help, I do not know how to diagnose this?

Thanks,

Fred

This is almost certainly a problem with your electrical service. I'd
suggest you call the power company right away.

John Martin

Bob AZ wrote:
On Feb 2, 4:36�pm, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote:
Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards

There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch
in the front controlled by the apron lever. �Its a pretty complicated bunch of wiring.

Please help, I do not know how to diagnose this?

Fred

WHATEVER YOU DO REMOVE THE POWER BEFORE DOING ANYTHING

Single Phase or Three Phase?
It's an early 1990's model. It's single phase 110 volts now. Supposedly it can be converted to 220. I would love to
convert it. I could figure out how to convert the motor but not the wiring in the panel. I think there are two wires
to change in the panel when converting to 200. It wasn't clear how to change them so I didn't.

Whatever electrical component shifts the wiring to reverse seems to be
stuck in the forward position.
I'm not sure how to tell which relay does what. There are 3 or 4 relays in the panel box. I'll investigate in the
morning. There's not much room behind the machine. ....another example of "failure to plan ahead".
Perhaps the reversing switch handle has
become free of the electrical contacts inside the reversing switch. OR
since you mention there being relays in a box along with the
"complicated wiring" there is a one or more relays perhaps stuck in
the operating position.

AFTER REMOVING POWER check the relays to determine whether the
armature, the thing that moves along with the contacts, actually moves
and the contacts associated with the armature move with them.

My best guess. There is a relay associated with reversing that is
stuck in the operating or energized position.
This is probably one in the panel

What Zip Code is the lathe at?
28205 Concord, North Carolina

Bob AZ

Thanks, I'll look closer inside the panel tomorrow, after I cut off the breaker.

Fred

"Fred" warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote in message
...
snip--

Please help, I do not know how to diagnose this?

Thanks,

Fred

If you have mirco switches in the controls, one of them may have built
enough metal dust inside to short out, keeping the circuit active, even if
the handle is moved to a different position. I have had that experience
twice with the Graziano lathe I own. It's easy enough to check for
shorting by disconnecting the micro switch from the circuit, then testing
for continuity on the circuit that should be normally open when the lathe is
in neutral.

Harold

What Zip Code is the lathe at?
28205 Concord, North Carolina
Bob �AZ
Thanks, I'll look closer inside the panel tomorrow, after I cut off
the breaker.

Fred

Were 28205 real close I would fix it. Do you have a wiring diagram?
There would probably be more than 2 wires to change for 220. 2 in the
motor and I am not sure how many for the controls.

Bob AZ

On 2008-02-03, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote:
Bob AZ wrote:
On Feb 2, 4:36?pm, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote:
Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards

There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch
in the front controlled by the apron lever. ?Its a pretty complicated bunch of wiring.

Please help, I do not know how to diagnose this?

Fred

WHATEVER YOU DO REMOVE THE POWER BEFORE DOING ANYTHING

Single Phase or Three Phase?
It's an early 1990's model. It's single phase 110 volts now. Supposedly it can be converted to 220. I would love to
convert it. I could figure out how to convert the motor but not the wiring in the panel. I think there are two wires
to change in the panel when converting to 200. It wasn't clear how to change them so I didn't.

Do you have a manual for it?

For that matter, hopefully the manual will have the wiring
diagram for the relays, which would be a big help in the diagnostics.

And -- could you *please* set your line length to something like
72 characters? I had to stretch the window out to full screen width
(122 characters) to be able to read your lines of text without having to
scroll from side to side. My previous newsreader would simply fold the
lines whenever they reached the current window width, breaking words in
the middle, but this one makes me have to use the arrow keys to scroll
back and forth -- once for each line. :-(

[ ... ]

AFTER REMOVING POWER check the relays to determine whether the
armature, the thing that moves along with the contacts, actually moves
and the contacts associated with the armature move with them.

My best guess. There is a relay associated with reversing that is
stuck in the operating or energized position.
This is probably one in the panel

However, if the lever is set up with cams to actuate
microswitches in the pedestal under the headstock, it might be that
chips have managed to leak in over time and build up enough to stick one
of the microswitches cam levers in the on position, so cleaning out
chips around the cams might make the difference. So -- it may not even
be inside the microswitches (which are normally rather well sealed,
anyway -- though a short could build up at the terminals on the backs of
the switches. But my first bet is something keeping one of the cam
rollers from finding a detent in the cam on the rod from the carriage.



What Zip Code is the lathe at?
28205 Concord, North Carolina

Hmm ... closer to me (near Washington DC) but still a bit far
for just popping in to look.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Fred wrote:
Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards

Today, my 1994 Clausing 12x37 clone metal lathe has stopped turning off
with the lever switch on the apron. I can switch from forward to
neutral to reverse and hear relays at the front lever switch work each
time, but it keeps running forward. If I want to stop it I have to hit
the emergency button. This is at least aggravating. But, I can get
stuff done as long as I don't need it to run backwards.

My problem right now is I'm all set up to run backwards for a threading
operation that I'm uncomfortable running forward. The lathe will only
go forward and starts right up with the apron lever in the neutral
position when the start button is pressed. It still will not start in
the forward and reverse apron lever position, as it's not supposed to.
But if it's in the apron neutral position it will start running forward
when the start button is pushed. Cycling the power off and back on does
not effect this behavior.

It has happened before and not really been a problem. And, maybe I can
let the thing cool down and get these threads cut later tonight or
tomorrow. But, I need to eventually fix the problem.

There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I
suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch in the front
controlled by the apron lever. Its a pretty complicated bunch of wiring.

Please help, I do not know how to diagnose this?

Thanks,

Fred

The lathe worked fine yesterday morning and I was able to cut my
threads. After it got warm, it again would only run in forward.


After the machine has run awhile it cannon be cut off with the apron
lever switch will only run in forward (even in the neutral or reverse
apron switch position). I can push the button on the reverse relay and
get the motor running in reverse. I know this is not the preferred method.

I found electrical schematics drawings that look like my lathe's wiring
and I have an voltage meter. How to I diagnose exactly what is going
wrong here?

I think I understand the switches, transformer and relays. And, how to
change the lathe to 220v. I do not understand what the "Heating Relay"
does.

I have posted a photograph of the electrical panel box and the schematic
drawing on my website.

http://ornamentalroseengine.com/download/lathe1.jpg
http://ornamentalroseengine.com/download/lathewire1.png

Thanks for any help.

Fred

That is positively the 2nd worst wiring diagram I've seen ( I'm in the
middle of an ancient DC motor control by Reliance.....)

I'd hazard a guess that the forward motor relay is KM2 and that is the
one that is sticking closed. Wait for the problem to occur, give KM2 a
smart rap with the fat end of a rubber grip screwdriver. The other
thought is that the main switch assembly is dirty, has a contact that is
hanging up. Cleaning with contact cleaner would be a good start.

Fred wrote:
Fred wrote:
Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards

Today, my 1994 Clausing 12x37 clone metal lathe has stopped turning
off with the lever switch on the apron. I can switch from forward to
neutral to reverse and hear relays at the front lever switch work each
time, but it keeps running forward. If I want to stop it I have to
hit the emergency button. This is at least aggravating. But, I can
get stuff done as long as I don't need it to run backwards.

My problem right now is I'm all set up to run backwards for a
threading operation that I'm uncomfortable running forward. The lathe
will only go forward and starts right up with the apron lever in the
neutral position when the start button is pressed. It still will not
start in the forward and reverse apron lever position, as it's not
supposed to. But if it's in the apron neutral position it will start
running forward when the start button is pushed. Cycling the power
off and back on does not effect this behavior.

It has happened before and not really been a problem. And, maybe I
can let the thing cool down and get these threads cut later tonight or
tomorrow. But, I need to eventually fix the problem.

There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I
suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch in the front
controlled by the apron lever. Its a pretty complicated bunch of wiring.

Please help, I do not know how to diagnose this?

Thanks,

Fred

The lathe worked fine yesterday morning and I was able to cut my
threads. After it got warm, it again would only run in forward.


After the machine has run awhile it cannon be cut off with the apron
lever switch will only run in forward (even in the neutral or reverse
apron switch position). I can push the button on the reverse relay and
get the motor running in reverse. I know this is not the preferred
method.

I found electrical schematics drawings that look like my lathe's wiring
and I have an voltage meter. How to I diagnose exactly what is going
wrong here?

I think I understand the switches, transformer and relays. And, how to
change the lathe to 220v. I do not understand what the "Heating Relay"
does.

I have posted a photograph of the electrical panel box and the schematic
drawing on my website.

http://ornamentalroseengine.com/download/lathe1.jpg
http://ornamentalroseengine.com/download/lathewire1.png

Thanks for any help.

Fred

On Feb 4, 9:

I think I understand the switches, transformer and relays. �And, how to
change the lathe to 220v. � I do not understand what the "Heating Relay"
does.

Fred

The FR relay is probably the overload for the motor. See the FR NC
contact in the KM1 coil cirucit for KM1.

From the photograph it appears that the 110 connection on the
transformer needs to be moved to the 220 connection in a 220 mode.

The notes refer to Figure 10 as 110 volt wiring and Figure 11 as 220
volt wiring. Do you have Figure 11?

KM1 applies the power to the motor through KM2 or KM3 depending on
which is selected. This provides direction. Forward or reverse.

I see what to do to change the control circuit to 220 but not what to
change to make the motor 220.

More tomorrow. Too sleepy to continue.

Bob AZ

Bob AZ wrote:
On Feb 4, 9:
I think I understand the switches, transformer and relays. �And, how to
change the lathe to 220v. � I do not understand what the "Heating Relay"
does.

Fred

The FR relay is probably the overload for the motor. See the FR NC
contact in the KM1 coil cirucit for KM1.

From the photograph it appears that the 110 connection on the
transformer needs to be moved to the 220 connection in a 220 mode.

The notes refer to Figure 10 as 110 volt wiring and Figure 11 as 220
volt wiring. Do you have Figure 11?
Yes, I do have it.

KM1 applies the power to the motor through KM2 or KM3 depending on
which is selected. This provides direction. Forward or reverse.

I see what to do to change the control circuit to 220 but not what to
change to make the motor 220.
I have a diagram for switching the motor to 220. I'll uploaded it to:


More tomorrow. Too sleepy to continue.

Bob AZ
Now I think I understand the switchover from 110 to 220 would involve:
1. Changing the connections at the motor as per the above diagram
2. Changing the transformer input voltage wire from the 110 to 220 terminal.
3. Run 220 service to the machine with a 220 receptacle
4. Put a 220 plug on the machine.

Thanks for helping me get this straight.

Fred

On Feb 5, 1:38�pm, Fred

I have a diagram for switching the motor to 220. �I'll uploaded it to:

More tomorrow. Too sleepy to continue.

Bob �AZ

Now I think I understand the switchover from 110 to 220 would involve:

Fred

Sleepy again. Just had a nap so I might be coherent!!

Don't see the link to the diagram to swithch the motor to 220.

Bob AZ
-

Fred wrote:
Bob AZ wrote:
On Feb 4, 9:
I think I understand the switches, transformer and relays. �And, how to
change the lathe to 220v. � I do not understand what the "Heating Relay"
does.

Fred

The FR relay is probably the overload for the motor. See the FR NC
contact in the KM1 coil cirucit for KM1.

From the photograph it appears that the 110 connection on the
transformer needs to be moved to the 220 connection in a 220 mode.

The notes refer to Figure 10 as 110 volt wiring and Figure 11 as 220
volt wiring. Do you have Figure 11?
Yes, I do have it.

KM1 applies the power to the motor through KM2 or KM3 depending on
which is selected. This provides direction. Forward or reverse.

I see what to do to change the control circuit to 220 but not what to
change to make the motor 220.
I have a diagram for switching the motor to 220. I'll uploaded it to:


More tomorrow. Too sleepy to continue.

Bob AZ
Now I think I understand the switchover from 110 to 220 would involve:
1. Changing the connections at the motor as per the above diagram
2. Changing the transformer input voltage wire from the 110 to 220
terminal.
3. Run 220 service to the machine with a 220 receptacle
4. Put a 220 plug on the machine.

Thanks for helping me get this straight.

Fred
Sorry, the link for the motor wiring is:
http://ornamentalroseengine.com/download/motor220.jpg
Fred