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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Clausing 13x40 clone will not run backwards
On 6 Feb 2008 05:28:01 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote: On 2008-02-05, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote: Richard Edwards wrote: [ ... ] After running about an hour this morning and turning off normally with the SA switch (apron lever) the K2 (forward) button is staying in 3 to 6 seconds, then clicking out. Comparatively, the reverse relay clicks out almost instantaneously with the SA switch. Hmm ... this looks to me as though it is a problem with contacts in the "SA" selector switch not opening quickly -- or perhaps drawing an arc which sustains for a few seconds before releasing. Is the SA switch the block of black plastic with six terminals below the KM1 relay? Is there a rod going from that through the side of the box and becoming the switch rod connected to the apron lever? It doesn't look right, because I don't see anything connected to terminal "4" on it (and I *think* nothing connected to "3" either, so I suspect that SA is somewhere in the pedestal at the end of the rod. Anyway -- locate where the SA switch *really* is (and it should be mechanically connected to the rod from the apron), and then run the lathe until you have it hang up as described above. Then unplug the lathe, and reach down to feel the switch. I suspect that you'll find one pair of terminal screws are hot compared to the other two pair. As for the relay itself -- try this -- with power to the system, so be careful what you touch -- ideally, press the buttons in the relays with insulating rods (plastic, dry wood, or whatever): 1) With the SA switch in the "STOP" position 2) Hold in the black button for KM1. 3) While holding it in, press in the black button for KM2. The motor should start, and release immediately when you release the button on KM2 or KM1. Either should pop out quickly instead of after a delay. If the relay moves slowly, then it is the relay. If it moves quickly, it is more likely to be arcing in the SA switch -- or perhaps just gummed up contacts which don't want to move easily once warm. And I agree -- the diagram is a pretty bad one. More detail about the SA switch would be nice. Good Luck, DoN. A lot of newer imports use a set of cheapy microswitches in the f/r/stop that can flake out. Ive replaced a number of them in Webb lathes, with similar problems. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Clausing 13x40 clone will not run backwards
My Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards
Today, my Clausing 12x37 clone metal lathe has stopped turning off with the lever switch on the apron. I can switch from forward to neutral to reverse and hear relays at the front lever switch work each time but it keeps running forward. If I want to stop it I have to hit the emergency button. This is at least aggravating. But, I can get stuff done as long as I don't need it to run backwards. My problem right now is I'm all set up to run backwards for a threading operation that I don't feel comfortable running forward. The lathe will only go forward and starts right up with the apron lever in the neutral position when the start button is pressed. It still will not start in the forward and reverse apron lever position, as it's not supposed to. But if it's in the apron neutral position it will start running forward when the start button is pushed. Cutting power to the lathe does not effect this behavior when reconnected. There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch in the front controlled by the apron lever. The motor is 220 single phase. It has happened before and not really been a problem. The next time I used it it would act normally for a while. And, maybe I can let the thing cool down and get these threads cut later tonight or tomorrow. But, I need to eventually fix the problem. I do not know how to diagnose how to fix this. Any suggestions on what I should do? Thanks, Fred |
#3
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Clausing 13x40 clone will not run backwards
Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote:
My Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards What is a Clausing clone? Wes |
#4
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Clausing 13x40 clone will not run backwards
Can't you contact the importer for help? Do you have, or can you get a
schematic wiring diagram? Doesn't sound like rocket science to troubleshoot it if you have the schematic. But, this sort of problem seldom gpes away on its own. So I would not trust the machine until the situation is resolved. You could also start an unwanted "smoke test" of the wiring, instead of having a single problem to solve. Might be a good time to hire and "electric motor guy". Most electrical contractors can put you on to the type of technician you need. ----But, I'd sure try to get a wiring diagram first. Pete Stanaitis ----------------- Fred wrote: My Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards Today, my Clausing 12x37 clone metal lathe has stopped turning off with the lever switch on the apron. I can switch from forward to neutral to reverse and hear relays at the front lever switch work each time but it keeps running forward. If I want to stop it I have to hit the emergency button. This is at least aggravating. But, I can get stuff done as long as I don't need it to run backwards. My problem right now is I'm all set up to run backwards for a threading operation that I don't feel comfortable running forward. The lathe will only go forward and starts right up with the apron lever in the neutral position when the start button is pressed. It still will not start in the forward and reverse apron lever position, as it's not supposed to. But if it's in the apron neutral position it will start running forward when the start button is pushed. Cutting power to the lathe does not effect this behavior when reconnected. There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch in the front controlled by the apron lever. The motor is 220 single phase. It has happened before and not really been a problem. The next time I used it it would act normally for a while. And, maybe I can let the thing cool down and get these threads cut later tonight or tomorrow. But, I need to eventually fix the problem. I do not know how to diagnose how to fix this. Any suggestions on what I should do? Thanks, Fred |
#5
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Clausing 13x40 clone will not run backwards
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 18:23:05 -0500, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com
wrote: My Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards Today, my Clausing 12x37 clone metal lathe has stopped turning off with the lever switch on the apron. I can switch from forward to neutral to reverse and hear relays at the front lever switch work each time but it keeps running forward. If I want to stop it I have to hit the emergency button. This is at least aggravating. But, I can get stuff done as long as I don't need it to run backwards. My problem right now is I'm all set up to run backwards for a threading operation that I don't feel comfortable running forward. The lathe will only go forward and starts right up with the apron lever in the neutral position when the start button is pressed. It still will not start in the forward and reverse apron lever position, as it's not supposed to. But if it's in the apron neutral position it will start running forward when the start button is pushed. Cutting power to the lathe does not effect this behavior when reconnected. There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch in the front controlled by the apron lever. The motor is 220 single phase. It has happened before and not really been a problem. The next time I used it it would act normally for a while. And, maybe I can let the thing cool down and get these threads cut later tonight or tomorrow. But, I need to eventually fix the problem. I do not know how to diagnose how to fix this. Any suggestions on what I should do? Thanks, Fred Take a look at your "inching button" it could well be stuck in or have welded contacts. The "Heating Relay" comprises a set of resistance wire single layer coils wrapped around bi-metallic strips. These wires carry the motor current which if excessive will cause heating and therefore bending of the bi-metallic strip. The bending action on any or all of the strips opens a contact which will cause the main contactor to drop out (FR contact in the KM1 coil line) -- Richard Email address is valid but remove burrs before sending! |
#6
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Clausing 13x40 clone will not run backwards
Richard Edwards wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 18:23:05 -0500, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote: My Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards Today, my Clausing 12x37 clone metal lathe has stopped turning off with the lever switch on the apron. I can switch from forward to neutral to reverse and hear relays at the front lever switch work each time but it keeps running forward. If I want to stop it I have to hit the emergency button. This is at least aggravating. But, I can get stuff done as long as I don't need it to run backwards. My problem right now is I'm all set up to run backwards for a threading operation that I don't feel comfortable running forward. The lathe will only go forward and starts right up with the apron lever in the neutral position when the start button is pressed. It still will not start in the forward and reverse apron lever position, as it's not supposed to. But if it's in the apron neutral position it will start running forward when the start button is pushed. Cutting power to the lathe does not effect this behavior when reconnected. There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch in the front controlled by the apron lever. The motor is 220 single phase. It has happened before and not really been a problem. The next time I used it it would act normally for a while. And, maybe I can let the thing cool down and get these threads cut later tonight or tomorrow. But, I need to eventually fix the problem. I do not know how to diagnose how to fix this. Any suggestions on what I should do? Thanks, Fred Take a look at your "inching button" it could well be stuck in or have welded contacts. The "Heating Relay" comprises a set of resistance wire single layer coils wrapped around bi-metallic strips. These wires carry the motor current which if excessive will cause heating and therefore bending of the bi-metallic strip. The bending action on any or all of the strips opens a contact which will cause the main contactor to drop out (FR contact in the KM1 coil line) -- Richard Email address is valid but remove burrs before sending! I'd rather not pay someone else to fix it if I can do it myself. I have done some electrical work, like wire everything in my shop, but of course I do not want to trash my lathe. I don't think it's the "inching button" as it works normally when the lathe is working normally. Thanks for the info on the "Heating Relay". I worked the lathe today and sometimes it would start in neutral and sometimes not. An irregular times, sometimes a few seconds and sometime many minutes, after I cut off the machine I hear a relay resetting in the power box. After I hear that click, the lathe will start normally. How do I tell which relay is malfunctioning, if in fact that is what is happening? Thanks, Fred |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Clausing 13x40 clone will not run backwards
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:57:44 -0500, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com
wrote: Richard Edwards wrote: On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 18:23:05 -0500, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote: My Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards Today, my Clausing 12x37 clone metal lathe has stopped turning off with the lever switch on the apron. I can switch from forward to neutral to reverse and hear relays at the front lever switch work each time but it keeps running forward. If I want to stop it I have to hit the emergency button. This is at least aggravating. But, I can get stuff done as long as I don't need it to run backwards. My problem right now is I'm all set up to run backwards for a threading operation that I don't feel comfortable running forward. The lathe will only go forward and starts right up with the apron lever in the neutral position when the start button is pressed. It still will not start in the forward and reverse apron lever position, as it's not supposed to. But if it's in the apron neutral position it will start running forward when the start button is pushed. Cutting power to the lathe does not effect this behavior when reconnected. There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch in the front controlled by the apron lever. The motor is 220 single phase. It has happened before and not really been a problem. The next time I used it it would act normally for a while. And, maybe I can let the thing cool down and get these threads cut later tonight or tomorrow. But, I need to eventually fix the problem. I do not know how to diagnose how to fix this. Any suggestions on what I should do? Thanks, Fred Take a look at your "inching button" it could well be stuck in or have welded contacts. The "Heating Relay" comprises a set of resistance wire single layer coils wrapped around bi-metallic strips. These wires carry the motor current which if excessive will cause heating and therefore bending of the bi-metallic strip. The bending action on any or all of the strips opens a contact which will cause the main contactor to drop out (FR contact in the KM1 coil line) -- Richard Email address is valid but remove burrs before sending! I'd rather not pay someone else to fix it if I can do it myself. I have done some electrical work, like wire everything in my shop, but of course I do not want to trash my lathe. I don't think it's the "inching button" as it works normally when the lathe is working normally. Thanks for the info on the "Heating Relay". I worked the lathe today and sometimes it would start in neutral and sometimes not. An irregular times, sometimes a few seconds and sometime many minutes, after I cut off the machine I hear a relay resetting in the power box. After I hear that click, the lathe will start normally. How do I tell which relay is malfunctioning, if in fact that is what is happening? Thanks, Fred Ok thats a bit more information. The circuit diagram shows that K1 is the Main contactor K2 the forward contactor and K3 the reverse contactor. Based on your comments it would appear that SA (Selector switch) is operated by your Fwd/Rev lever. Everything points to K2 staying in. There is an interlock between K2 and K3 so that they cannot operate together and generate magic smoke! From the photo of the panel it appears that this is only an electrical interlock not mechanical. Run the machine whilst it is in error and take a look at K2 this is most probably the contactor that is staying in. You will be able to see if it is in or out by looking at the black button left centre of the labelled face of the contactor. Probe with a meter (you will be reading 36v AC) at terminal 2 on the bottom terminal strip to terminal 0 on the transformer. When running Fwd you will see volts here. You are hopefully monitoring the volts across K2 coil. Options after lever to forward then neutral but machine continues to run are ---- 1 K2 "IN" and volts present - Selector switch sticking or Jog button sticking 2 K2 stays "IN" but volts go away - Contactor sticking mechanically Re-reading your post I now think that K2 is sticking mechanically. Before you do the above try this. Turn OFF all power to the machine. Manually press the aforementioned button on each contactor and compare their responses. If K2 drops out slower or sticks that is your problem. This is not the finest test as your press acts in a different way to the coil pull in. When replacing it you do not need the same manufacturer just physically the same size, coil voltage and current capacity. The positions of the coil connections may change maker to maker. Ensure that you mark all wires as you strip, and make notes. By the way did I tell you to TURN OFF ALL THE POWER TO THE MACHINE FIRST! (and preferably pull the main fuses and keep them by you.) Rectify and continue to make swarf! If you are at all concerned with your abilities GET AN ELECTRICIAN! -- Richard Email address is valid but remove burrs before sending! |
#8
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Clausing 13x40 clone will not run backwards
Richard Edwards wrote:
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:57:44 -0500, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote: Richard Edwards wrote: On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 18:23:05 -0500, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote: My Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards Today, my Clausing 12x37 clone metal lathe has stopped turning off with the lever switch on the apron. I can switch from forward to neutral to reverse and hear relays at the front lever switch work each time but it keeps running forward. If I want to stop it I have to hit the emergency button. This is at least aggravating. But, I can get stuff done as long as I don't need it to run backwards. My problem right now is I'm all set up to run backwards for a threading operation that I don't feel comfortable running forward. The lathe will only go forward and starts right up with the apron lever in the neutral position when the start button is pressed. It still will not start in the forward and reverse apron lever position, as it's not supposed to. But if it's in the apron neutral position it will start running forward when the start button is pushed. Cutting power to the lathe does not effect this behavior when reconnected. There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch in the front controlled by the apron lever. The motor is 220 single phase. It has happened before and not really been a problem. The next time I used it it would act normally for a while. And, maybe I can let the thing cool down and get these threads cut later tonight or tomorrow. But, I need to eventually fix the problem. I do not know how to diagnose how to fix this. Any suggestions on what I should do? Thanks, Fred Take a look at your "inching button" it could well be stuck in or have welded contacts. The "Heating Relay" comprises a set of resistance wire single layer coils wrapped around bi-metallic strips. These wires carry the motor current which if excessive will cause heating and therefore bending of the bi-metallic strip. The bending action on any or all of the strips opens a contact which will cause the main contactor to drop out (FR contact in the KM1 coil line) -- Richard Email address is valid but remove burrs before sending! I'd rather not pay someone else to fix it if I can do it myself. I have done some electrical work, like wire everything in my shop, but of course I do not want to trash my lathe. I don't think it's the "inching button" as it works normally when the lathe is working normally. Thanks for the info on the "Heating Relay". I worked the lathe today and sometimes it would start in neutral and sometimes not. An irregular times, sometimes a few seconds and sometime many minutes, after I cut off the machine I hear a relay resetting in the power box. After I hear that click, the lathe will start normally. How do I tell which relay is malfunctioning, if in fact that is what is happening? Thanks, Fred Ok thats a bit more information. The circuit diagram shows that K1 is the Main contactor K2 the forward contactor and K3 the reverse contactor. Based on your comments it would appear that SA (Selector switch) is operated by your Fwd/Rev lever. Everything points to K2 staying in. There is an interlock between K2 and K3 so that they cannot operate together and generate magic smoke! From the photo of the panel it appears that this is only an electrical interlock not mechanical. Run the machine whilst it is in error and take a look at K2 this is most probably the contactor that is staying in. You will be able to see if it is in or out by looking at the black button left centre of the labelled face of the contactor. After running about an hour this morning and turning off normally with the SA switch (apron lever) the K2 (forward) button is staying in 3 to 6 seconds, then clicking out. Comparatively, the reverse relay clicks out almost instantaneously with the SA switch. Probe with a meter (you will be reading 36v AC) at terminal 2 on the bottom terminal strip to terminal 0 on the transformer. When running Fwd you will see volts here. You are hopefully monitoring the volts across K2 coil. I have 39 volts Options after lever to forward then neutral but machine continues to run are ---- It's now not running in error long enough to do this. 1 K2 "IN" and volts present - Selector switch sticking or Jog button sticking 2 K2 stays "IN" but volts go away - Contactor sticking mechanically Re-reading your post I now think that K2 is sticking mechanically. Before you do the above try this. Turn OFF all power to the machine. Manually press the aforementioned button on each contactor and compare their responses. All three relays feel the same to push the button in and let out with no power. If K2 drops out slower or sticks that is your problem. This is not the finest test as your press acts in a different way to the coil pull in. When replacing it you do not need the same manufacturer just physically the same size, coil voltage and current capacity. The positions of the coil connections may change maker to maker. Ensure that you mark all wires as you strip, and make notes. I'll make a drawing and label everything. By the way did I tell you to TURN OFF ALL THE POWER TO THE MACHINE FIRST! (and preferably pull the main fuses and keep them by you.) Rectify and continue to make swarf! If you are at all concerned with your abilities GET AN ELECTRICIAN! I think I can do this. -- Richard Email address is valid but remove burrs before sending! It sounds like the K2 relay is not working correctly. I'll look around and see if I can get one. I expect somewhere in Charlotte will have one. Thank you for all your help, Fred |
#9
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Clausing 13x40 clone will not run backwards
On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 15:25:12 -0500, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com
wrote: Options after lever to forward then neutral but machine continues to run are ----It's now not running in error long enough to do this. Hang on Fred In this post you said that K2 was staying in for a few seconds. Thats all we need to determine (1) if the it is in with 0 volts or (2) if it is in whilst the volts are still there. Option 1 K2 Contactor sticky Option 2 Selector switch sticky You really need to prove this before getting a new contactor! Btw it is not impossible to strip the contactor and check for crap. I leave this to you. -- Richard Email address is valid but remove burrs before sending! |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Clausing 13x40 clone will not run backwards
On 2008-02-05, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote:
Richard Edwards wrote: [ ... ] After running about an hour this morning and turning off normally with the SA switch (apron lever) the K2 (forward) button is staying in 3 to 6 seconds, then clicking out. Comparatively, the reverse relay clicks out almost instantaneously with the SA switch. Hmm ... this looks to me as though it is a problem with contacts in the "SA" selector switch not opening quickly -- or perhaps drawing an arc which sustains for a few seconds before releasing. Is the SA switch the block of black plastic with six terminals below the KM1 relay? Is there a rod going from that through the side of the box and becoming the switch rod connected to the apron lever? It doesn't look right, because I don't see anything connected to terminal "4" on it (and I *think* nothing connected to "3" either, so I suspect that SA is somewhere in the pedestal at the end of the rod. Anyway -- locate where the SA switch *really* is (and it should be mechanically connected to the rod from the apron), and then run the lathe until you have it hang up as described above. Then unplug the lathe, and reach down to feel the switch. I suspect that you'll find one pair of terminal screws are hot compared to the other two pair. As for the relay itself -- try this -- with power to the system, so be careful what you touch -- ideally, press the buttons in the relays with insulating rods (plastic, dry wood, or whatever): 1) With the SA switch in the "STOP" position 2) Hold in the black button for KM1. 3) While holding it in, press in the black button for KM2. The motor should start, and release immediately when you release the button on KM2 or KM1. Either should pop out quickly instead of after a delay. If the relay moves slowly, then it is the relay. If it moves quickly, it is more likely to be arcing in the SA switch -- or perhaps just gummed up contacts which don't want to move easily once warm. And I agree -- the diagram is a pretty bad one. More detail about the SA switch would be nice. Good Luck, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#11
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Clausing 13x40 clone will not run backwards
Richard Edwards wrote:
On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 15:25:12 -0500, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote: Options after lever to forward then neutral but machine continues to run are ----It's now not running in error long enough to do this. Hang on Fred In this post you said that K2 was staying in for a few seconds. Thats all we need to determine (1) if the it is in with 0 volts or (2) if it is in whilst the volts are still there. Option 1 K2 Contactor sticky Option 2 Selector switch sticky You really need to prove this before getting a new contactor! Btw it is not impossible to strip the contactor and check for crap. I leave this to you. -- Richard Email address is valid but remove burrs before sending! Thanks to the input here. With all the new information, I've studied the schematic and machine some more and I think terminal 7 controls KM2 and terminal 13 controls KM3 from the SA switch. I tested 39 volts between terminal 7 and the transformer 0, when running forward normally. This drops to 0 immediately when the SA switch is cut off even though the KM2 relay has not tripped. I think this isolates the KM2 relay as the culprit. Since I have to take it out to find another one, I'll try and take it apart and see if there is any obvious problem before I buy another. Thank you for your help. Fred |
#12
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Clausing 13x40 clone will not run backwards
DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2008-02-05, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote: Richard Edwards wrote: [ ... ] After running about an hour this morning and turning off normally with the SA switch (apron lever) the K2 (forward) button is staying in 3 to 6 seconds, then clicking out. Comparatively, the reverse relay clicks out almost instantaneously with the SA switch. Hmm ... this looks to me as though it is a problem with contacts in the "SA" selector switch not opening quickly -- or perhaps drawing an arc which sustains for a few seconds before releasing. Is the SA switch the block of black plastic with six terminals below the KM1 relay? No, this is the (Over) heating relay. Is there a rod going from that through the side of the box and becoming the switch rod connected to the apron lever? It doesn't look right, because I don't see anything connected to terminal "4" on it (and I *think* nothing connected to "3" either, so I suspect that SA is somewhere in the pedestal at the end of the rod. It is on the front of the machine Anyway -- locate where the SA switch *really* is (and it should be mechanically connected to the rod from the apron), and then run the lathe until you have it hang up as described above. Then unplug the lathe, and reach down to feel the switch. I suspect that you'll find one pair of terminal screws are hot compared to the other two pair. As for the relay itself -- try this -- with power to the system, so be careful what you touch -- ideally, press the buttons in the relays with insulating rods (plastic, dry wood, or whatever): 1) With the SA switch in the "STOP" position 2) Hold in the black button for KM1. 3) While holding it in, press in the black button for KM2. KM1 and KM2 have two wires going between that I think only allow one to operate at a time. The motor should start, and release immediately when you release the button on KM2 or KM1. Either should pop out quickly instead of after a delay. When pushed by hand both pop back quickly even when the lathe is misbehaving. If the relay moves slowly, then it is the relay. If it moves quickly, it is more likely to be arcing in the SA switch -- or perhaps just gummed up contacts which don't want to move easily once warm. And I agree -- the diagram is a pretty bad one. More detail about the SA switch would be nice. Good Luck, DoN. I uploaded two more drawings: 1. Is a diagram of the connector bar and units in the panel http://ornamentalroseengine.com/download/lathewire2.jpg 2. Shows the wire number labeling and diagram of the SA switch and other switches. I guess I should have uploaded all of this before. I just posted the following at the original posting also: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks to the input here. With all the new information, I've studied the schematic and machine some more and I think terminal 7 controls KM2 and terminal 13 controls KM3 from the SA switch. I tested 39 volts between terminal 7 and the transformer 0, when running forward normally. This drops to 0 immediately when the SA switch is cut off even though the KM2 relay has not tripped. I think this isolates the KM2 relay as the culprit. Since I have to take it out to find another one, I'll try and take it apart and see if there is any obvious problem before I buy another. Thank you for your help. Fred |
#13
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Clausing 13x40 clone will not run backwards
On 2008-02-07, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote: On 2008-02-05, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote: Richard Edwards wrote: [ ... ] After running about an hour this morning and turning off normally with the SA switch (apron lever) the K2 (forward) button is staying in 3 to 6 seconds, then clicking out. Comparatively, the reverse relay clicks out almost instantaneously with the SA switch. Hmm ... this looks to me as though it is a problem with contacts in the "SA" selector switch not opening quickly -- or perhaps drawing an arc which sustains for a few seconds before releasing. Is the SA switch the block of black plastic with six terminals below the KM1 relay? No, this is the (Over) heating relay. O.K. The setup designed to drop power from the motor if it stalls for whatever reason -- including a blown starting capacitor. It will hum for a few seconds, and then all the relays will drop out when the "FR" contacts in series with the KM1 relay coil open. Is there a rod going from that through the side of the box and becoming the switch rod connected to the apron lever? It doesn't look right, because I don't see anything connected to terminal "4" on it (and I *think* nothing connected to "3" either, so I suspect that SA is somewhere in the pedestal at the end of the rod. It is on the front of the machine O.K. Outside of the pedestal, where chips could get at it? Anyway -- locate where the SA switch *really* is (and it should be mechanically connected to the rod from the apron), and then run the lathe until you have it hang up as described above. Then unplug the lathe, and reach down to feel the switch. I suspect that you'll find one pair of terminal screws are hot compared to the other two pair. As for the relay itself -- try this -- with power to the system, so be careful what you touch -- ideally, press the buttons in the relays with insulating rods (plastic, dry wood, or whatever): 1) With the SA switch in the "STOP" position 2) Hold in the black button for KM1. 3) While holding it in, press in the black button for KM2. [ ... ] KM1 and KM2 have two wires going between that I think only allow one to operate at a time. That is actually KM2 and KM3, as one connects the motor for forward, and the other for reverse. KM1 is the master run/stop relay. The cross wiring to keep KM2 and KM3 from being energized at the same time are the presence of the contacts from KM2 in series with the coil for KM3, and vice versa. Push both KM2 and KM3 at the same time and the breaker will blow very quickly as you will have a short across the power line to the motor. And you are likely to weld the contacts in at least one of the relays as well. The motor should start, and release immediately when you release the button on KM2 or KM1. Either should pop out quickly instead of after a delay. When pushed by hand both pop back quickly even when the lathe is misbehaving. O.K. So if it isn't arcing holding it in (as your test on Terminal 7 seems to indicate) then there is either an arc between power contacts on the relay, or the contacts are not moving freely, even though the solenoid actuator does. If the relay moves slowly, then it is the relay. If it moves quickly, it is more likely to be arcing in the SA switch -- or perhaps just gummed up contacts which don't want to move easily once warm. I still feel that the SA switch is the culprit. And I agree -- the diagram is a pretty bad one. More detail about the SA switch would be nice. [ ... ] I uploaded two more drawings: 1. Is a diagram of the connector bar and units in the panel http://ornamentalroseengine.com/download/lathewire2.jpg But you only gave the URL for one. I guessed (correctly) that the other was: http://ornamentalroseengine.com/download/lathewire3.jpg 2. Shows the wire number labeling and diagram of the SA switch and other switches. I guess I should have uploaded all of this before. It would have helped somewhat. I just posted the following at the original posting also: ------------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks to the input here. With all the new information, I've studied the schematic and machine some more and I think terminal 7 controls KM2 and terminal 13 controls KM3 from the SA switch. Terminal 7 on the schematic being the one between terminal 2 of the SA switch and the contacts of KM3 in series with the coil of KM2? That looks more like a 'T' than a '7'. And I notice that the drawing of SA shows only the numbers of the wires to which it is connected, not the terminal numbers on the switch itself. And I guess the black dots show which contacts are closed in which position of the lever. It looks as though you must be in the stop position for the contacts connected between 4 and 5 to be closed, so the SB2 switch can turn on power to the other relays. Are those high side of the relay coil contacts labeled 6, 8, and 10? I'm not sure about the '8'. But anyway, that is where I would be measuring the power to the relay coils. I wish that I could see where the terminals on the relays are for the coil wiring. HL1 tells you when power is available to the lathe, and HL2 when you have pressed SB2 under the proper conditions to turn on power to the relays. It looks as though KM1 stays engaged until you hit SB1 or until the overheat contact drops the relay. I tested 39 volts between terminal 7 and the transformer 0, when running forward normally. This drops to 0 immediately when the SA switch is cut off even though the KM2 relay has not tripped. I think this isolates the KM2 relay as the culprit. Hmm ... if '7' is truly where I think it is on the schematic, then yes I agree after all. Since I have to take it out to find another one, I'll try and take it apart and see if there is any obvious problem before I buy another. There could be chips holding the relay engaged, or someone tried lubricating it and the lube gummed up. (The relays should not be lubed.) Thank you for your help. You're welcome. Good Luck, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
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Clausing 13x40 clone will not run backwards
On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 19:12:06 -0500, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com
wrote: I think this isolates the KM2 relay as the culprit. Since I have to take it out to find another one, I'll try and take it apart and see if there is any obvious problem before I buy another. Thank you for your help. Fred So? Are you up and running, or still looking for all of the springs that flew out of your contactor when you stripped it? -- Richard Email address is valid but remove burrs before sending! |
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