On 6 Feb 2008 05:28:01 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2008-02-05, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote:
Richard Edwards wrote:

[ ... ]

After running about an hour this morning and turning off normally with
the SA switch (apron lever) the K2 (forward) button is staying in 3 to 6
seconds, then clicking out. Comparatively, the reverse relay clicks out
almost instantaneously with the SA switch.

Hmm ... this looks to me as though it is a problem with contacts
in the "SA" selector switch not opening quickly -- or perhaps drawing an
arc which sustains for a few seconds before releasing. Is the SA switch
the block of black plastic with six terminals below the KM1 relay? Is
there a rod going from that through the side of the box and becoming the
switch rod connected to the apron lever? It doesn't look right, because
I don't see anything connected to terminal "4" on it (and I *think*
nothing connected to "3" either, so I suspect that SA is somewhere in
the pedestal at the end of the rod.

Anyway -- locate where the SA switch *really* is (and it should
be mechanically connected to the rod from the apron), and then run the
lathe until you have it hang up as described above. Then unplug the
lathe, and reach down to feel the switch. I suspect that you'll find
one pair of terminal screws are hot compared to the other two pair.

As for the relay itself -- try this -- with power to the system,
so be careful what you touch -- ideally, press the buttons in the
relays with insulating rods (plastic, dry wood, or whatever):

1) With the SA switch in the "STOP" position

2) Hold in the black button for KM1.

3) While holding it in, press in the black button for KM2.

The motor should start, and release immediately when you release
the button on KM2 or KM1. Either should pop out quickly instead of
after a delay.

If the relay moves slowly, then it is the relay. If it moves
quickly, it is more likely to be arcing in the SA switch -- or perhaps
just gummed up contacts which don't want to move easily once warm.

And I agree -- the diagram is a pretty bad one. More detail
about the SA switch would be nice.

Good Luck,
DoN.

A lot of newer imports use a set of cheapy microswitches in the
f/r/stop that can flake out. Ive replaced a number of them in Webb
lathes, with similar problems.

Gunner



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

My Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards

Today, my Clausing 12x37 clone metal lathe has stopped turning off with the lever switch on the apron. I can switch
from forward to neutral to reverse and hear relays at the front lever switch work each time but it keeps running
forward. If I want to stop it I have to hit the emergency button. This is at least aggravating. But, I can get stuff
done as long as I don't need it to run backwards.

My problem right now is I'm all set up to run backwards for a threading operation that I don't feel comfortable running
forward. The lathe will only go forward and starts right up with the apron lever in the neutral position when the start
button is pressed. It still will not start in the forward and reverse apron lever position, as it's not supposed to.
But if it's in the apron neutral position it will start running forward when the start button is pushed. Cutting power
to the lathe does not effect this behavior when reconnected.

There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch
in the front controlled by the apron lever. The motor is 220 single phase.

It has happened before and not really been a problem. The next time I used it it would act normally for a while. And,
maybe I can let the thing cool down and get these threads cut later tonight or tomorrow. But, I need to eventually fix
the problem.

I do not know how to diagnose how to fix this. Any suggestions on what I should do?

Thanks,

Fred

Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote:

My Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards

What is a Clausing clone?

Wes

Can't you contact the importer for help? Do you have, or can you get a
schematic wiring diagram? Doesn't sound like rocket science to
troubleshoot it if you have the schematic. But, this sort of problem
seldom gpes away on its own. So I would not trust the machine until the
situation is resolved. You could also start an unwanted "smoke test"
of the wiring, instead of having a single problem to solve.
Might be a good time to hire and "electric motor guy". Most
electrical contractors can put you on to the type of technician you
need. ----But, I'd sure try to get a wiring diagram first.

Pete Stanaitis
-----------------

Fred wrote:

My Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards

Today, my Clausing 12x37 clone metal lathe has stopped turning off with
the lever switch on the apron. I can switch from forward to neutral to
reverse and hear relays at the front lever switch work each time but it
keeps running forward. If I want to stop it I have to hit the emergency
button. This is at least aggravating. But, I can get stuff done as
long as I don't need it to run backwards.

My problem right now is I'm all set up to run backwards for a threading
operation that I don't feel comfortable running forward. The lathe will
only go forward and starts right up with the apron lever in the neutral
position when the start button is pressed. It still will not start in
the forward and reverse apron lever position, as it's not supposed to.
But if it's in the apron neutral position it will start running forward
when the start button is pushed. Cutting power to the lathe does not
effect this behavior when reconnected.

There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I
suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch in the front
controlled by the apron lever. The motor is 220 single phase.

It has happened before and not really been a problem. The next time I
used it it would act normally for a while. And, maybe I can let the
thing cool down and get these threads cut later tonight or tomorrow.
But, I need to eventually fix the problem.

I do not know how to diagnose how to fix this. Any suggestions on what
I should do?

Thanks,

Fred

On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 18:23:05 -0500, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com
wrote:

My Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards

Today, my Clausing 12x37 clone metal lathe has stopped turning off with the lever switch on the apron. I can switch
from forward to neutral to reverse and hear relays at the front lever switch work each time but it keeps running
forward. If I want to stop it I have to hit the emergency button. This is at least aggravating. But, I can get stuff
done as long as I don't need it to run backwards.

My problem right now is I'm all set up to run backwards for a threading operation that I don't feel comfortable running
forward. The lathe will only go forward and starts right up with the apron lever in the neutral position when the start
button is pressed. It still will not start in the forward and reverse apron lever position, as it's not supposed to.
But if it's in the apron neutral position it will start running forward when the start button is pushed. Cutting power
to the lathe does not effect this behavior when reconnected.

There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch
in the front controlled by the apron lever. The motor is 220 single phase.

It has happened before and not really been a problem. The next time I used it it would act normally for a while. And,
maybe I can let the thing cool down and get these threads cut later tonight or tomorrow. But, I need to eventually fix
the problem.

I do not know how to diagnose how to fix this. Any suggestions on what I should do?

Thanks,

Fred
Take a look at your "inching button" it could well be stuck in or have
welded contacts. The "Heating Relay" comprises a set of resistance
wire single layer coils wrapped around bi-metallic strips. These wires
carry the motor current which if excessive will cause heating and
therefore bending of the bi-metallic strip. The bending action on any
or all of the strips opens a contact which will cause the main
contactor to drop out (FR contact in the KM1 coil line)

--

Richard

Email address is valid but remove burrs before sending!

Richard Edwards wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 18:23:05 -0500, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com
wrote:

My Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards

Today, my Clausing 12x37 clone metal lathe has stopped turning off with the lever switch on the apron. I can switch
from forward to neutral to reverse and hear relays at the front lever switch work each time but it keeps running
forward. If I want to stop it I have to hit the emergency button. This is at least aggravating. But, I can get stuff
done as long as I don't need it to run backwards.

My problem right now is I'm all set up to run backwards for a threading operation that I don't feel comfortable running
forward. The lathe will only go forward and starts right up with the apron lever in the neutral position when the start
button is pressed. It still will not start in the forward and reverse apron lever position, as it's not supposed to.
But if it's in the apron neutral position it will start running forward when the start button is pushed. Cutting power
to the lathe does not effect this behavior when reconnected.

There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch
in the front controlled by the apron lever. The motor is 220 single phase.

It has happened before and not really been a problem. The next time I used it it would act normally for a while. And,
maybe I can let the thing cool down and get these threads cut later tonight or tomorrow. But, I need to eventually fix
the problem.

I do not know how to diagnose how to fix this. Any suggestions on what I should do?

Thanks,

Fred
Take a look at your "inching button" it could well be stuck in or have
welded contacts. The "Heating Relay" comprises a set of resistance
wire single layer coils wrapped around bi-metallic strips. These wires
carry the motor current which if excessive will cause heating and
therefore bending of the bi-metallic strip. The bending action on any
or all of the strips opens a contact which will cause the main
contactor to drop out (FR contact in the KM1 coil line)

--

Richard

Email address is valid but remove burrs before sending!
I'd rather not pay someone else to fix it if I can do it myself. I have
done some electrical work, like wire everything in my shop, but of
course I do not want to trash my lathe.

I don't think it's the "inching button" as it works normally when the
lathe is working normally.

Thanks for the info on the "Heating Relay".

I worked the lathe today and sometimes it would start in neutral and
sometimes not. An irregular times, sometimes a few seconds and sometime
many minutes, after I cut off the machine I hear a relay resetting in
the power box. After I hear that click, the lathe will start normally.

How do I tell which relay is malfunctioning, if in fact that is what is
happening?

Thanks,

Fred

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:57:44 -0500, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com
wrote:

Richard Edwards wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 18:23:05 -0500, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com
wrote:

My Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards

Today, my Clausing 12x37 clone metal lathe has stopped turning off with the lever switch on the apron. I can switch
from forward to neutral to reverse and hear relays at the front lever switch work each time but it keeps running
forward. If I want to stop it I have to hit the emergency button. This is at least aggravating. But, I can get stuff
done as long as I don't need it to run backwards.

My problem right now is I'm all set up to run backwards for a threading operation that I don't feel comfortable running
forward. The lathe will only go forward and starts right up with the apron lever in the neutral position when the start
button is pressed. It still will not start in the forward and reverse apron lever position, as it's not supposed to.
But if it's in the apron neutral position it will start running forward when the start button is pushed. Cutting power
to the lathe does not effect this behavior when reconnected.

There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch
in the front controlled by the apron lever. The motor is 220 single phase.

It has happened before and not really been a problem. The next time I used it it would act normally for a while. And,
maybe I can let the thing cool down and get these threads cut later tonight or tomorrow. But, I need to eventually fix
the problem.

I do not know how to diagnose how to fix this. Any suggestions on what I should do?

Thanks,

Fred
Take a look at your "inching button" it could well be stuck in or have
welded contacts. The "Heating Relay" comprises a set of resistance
wire single layer coils wrapped around bi-metallic strips. These wires
carry the motor current which if excessive will cause heating and
therefore bending of the bi-metallic strip. The bending action on any
or all of the strips opens a contact which will cause the main
contactor to drop out (FR contact in the KM1 coil line)

--

Richard

Email address is valid but remove burrs before sending!
I'd rather not pay someone else to fix it if I can do it myself. I have
done some electrical work, like wire everything in my shop, but of
course I do not want to trash my lathe.

I don't think it's the "inching button" as it works normally when the
lathe is working normally.

Thanks for the info on the "Heating Relay".

I worked the lathe today and sometimes it would start in neutral and
sometimes not. An irregular times, sometimes a few seconds and sometime
many minutes, after I cut off the machine I hear a relay resetting in
the power box. After I hear that click, the lathe will start normally.

How do I tell which relay is malfunctioning, if in fact that is what is
happening?

Thanks,

Fred
Ok thats a bit more information.
The circuit diagram shows that K1 is the Main contactor K2 the forward
contactor and K3 the reverse contactor. Based on your comments it
would appear that SA (Selector switch) is operated by your Fwd/Rev
lever. Everything points to K2 staying in. There is an interlock
between K2 and K3 so that they cannot operate together and generate
magic smoke! From the photo of the panel it appears that this is only
an electrical interlock not mechanical.
Run the machine whilst it is in error and take a look at K2 this is
most probably the contactor that is staying in. You will be able to
see if it is in or out by looking at the black button left centre of
the labelled face of the contactor. Probe with a meter (you will be
reading 36v AC) at terminal 2 on the bottom terminal strip to terminal
0 on the transformer. When running Fwd you will see volts here. You
are hopefully monitoring the volts across K2 coil.

Options after lever to forward then neutral but machine continues to
run are ----
1 K2 "IN" and volts present - Selector switch sticking or Jog button
sticking
2 K2 stays "IN" but volts go away - Contactor sticking mechanically

Re-reading your post I now think that K2 is sticking mechanically.
Before you do the above try this.
Turn OFF all power to the machine. Manually press the aforementioned
button on each contactor and compare their responses. If K2 drops out
slower or sticks that is your problem. This is not the finest test as
your press acts in a different way to the coil pull in.
When replacing it you do not need the same manufacturer just
physically the same size, coil voltage and current capacity. The
positions of the coil connections may change maker to maker. Ensure
that you mark all wires as you strip, and make notes.
By the way did I tell you to TURN OFF ALL THE POWER TO THE MACHINE
FIRST! (and preferably pull the main fuses and keep them by you.)


Rectify and continue to make swarf!

If you are at all concerned with your abilities GET AN ELECTRICIAN!

--

Richard

Email address is valid but remove burrs before sending!

Richard Edwards wrote:
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:57:44 -0500, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com
wrote:

Richard Edwards wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 18:23:05 -0500, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com
wrote:

My Clausing 12x37 clone will not run backwards

Today, my Clausing 12x37 clone metal lathe has stopped turning off with the lever switch on the apron. I can switch
from forward to neutral to reverse and hear relays at the front lever switch work each time but it keeps running
forward. If I want to stop it I have to hit the emergency button. This is at least aggravating. But, I can get stuff
done as long as I don't need it to run backwards.

My problem right now is I'm all set up to run backwards for a threading operation that I don't feel comfortable running
forward. The lathe will only go forward and starts right up with the apron lever in the neutral position when the start
button is pressed. It still will not start in the forward and reverse apron lever position, as it's not supposed to.
But if it's in the apron neutral position it will start running forward when the start button is pushed. Cutting power
to the lathe does not effect this behavior when reconnected.

There are several multi wire relays in the panel box on the back and I suspect one of them is the problem, or the switch
in the front controlled by the apron lever. The motor is 220 single phase.

It has happened before and not really been a problem. The next time I used it it would act normally for a while. And,
maybe I can let the thing cool down and get these threads cut later tonight or tomorrow. But, I need to eventually fix
the problem.

I do not know how to diagnose how to fix this. Any suggestions on what I should do?

Thanks,

Fred
Take a look at your "inching button" it could well be stuck in or have
welded contacts. The "Heating Relay" comprises a set of resistance
wire single layer coils wrapped around bi-metallic strips. These wires
carry the motor current which if excessive will cause heating and
therefore bending of the bi-metallic strip. The bending action on any
or all of the strips opens a contact which will cause the main
contactor to drop out (FR contact in the KM1 coil line)

--

Richard

Email address is valid but remove burrs before sending!
I'd rather not pay someone else to fix it if I can do it myself. I have
done some electrical work, like wire everything in my shop, but of
course I do not want to trash my lathe.

I don't think it's the "inching button" as it works normally when the
lathe is working normally.

Thanks for the info on the "Heating Relay".

I worked the lathe today and sometimes it would start in neutral and
sometimes not. An irregular times, sometimes a few seconds and sometime
many minutes, after I cut off the machine I hear a relay resetting in
the power box. After I hear that click, the lathe will start normally.

How do I tell which relay is malfunctioning, if in fact that is what is
happening?

Thanks,

Fred
Ok thats a bit more information.
The circuit diagram shows that K1 is the Main contactor K2 the forward
contactor and K3 the reverse contactor. Based on your comments it
would appear that SA (Selector switch) is operated by your Fwd/Rev
lever. Everything points to K2 staying in. There is an interlock
between K2 and K3 so that they cannot operate together and generate
magic smoke! From the photo of the panel it appears that this is only
an electrical interlock not mechanical.
Run the machine whilst it is in error and take a look at K2 this is
most probably the contactor that is staying in. You will be able to
see if it is in or out by looking at the black button left centre of
the labelled face of the contactor.
After running about an hour this morning and turning off normally with
the SA switch (apron lever) the K2 (forward) button is staying in 3 to 6
seconds, then clicking out. Comparatively, the reverse relay clicks out
almost instantaneously with the SA switch.
Probe with a meter (you will be
reading 36v AC) at terminal 2 on the bottom terminal strip to terminal
0 on the transformer. When running Fwd you will see volts here. You
are hopefully monitoring the volts across K2 coil.

I have 39 volts
Options after lever to forward then neutral but machine continues to
run are ----
It's now not running in error long enough to do this.
1 K2 "IN" and volts present - Selector switch sticking or Jog button
sticking
2 K2 stays "IN" but volts go away - Contactor sticking mechanically

Re-reading your post I now think that K2 is sticking mechanically.
Before you do the above try this.
Turn OFF all power to the machine. Manually press the aforementioned
button on each contactor and compare their responses.
All three relays feel the same to push the button in and let out with no
power.
If K2 drops out
slower or sticks that is your problem. This is not the finest test as
your press acts in a different way to the coil pull in.
When replacing it you do not need the same manufacturer just
physically the same size, coil voltage and current capacity. The
positions of the coil connections may change maker to maker. Ensure
that you mark all wires as you strip, and make notes.
I'll make a drawing and label everything.
By the way did I tell you to TURN OFF ALL THE POWER TO THE MACHINE
FIRST! (and preferably pull the main fuses and keep them by you.)


Rectify and continue to make swarf!

If you are at all concerned with your abilities GET AN ELECTRICIAN!

I think I can do this.

--

Richard

Email address is valid but remove burrs before sending!
It sounds like the K2 relay is not working correctly. I'll look around
and see if I can get one. I expect somewhere in Charlotte will have one.

Thank you for all your help,

Fred

On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 15:25:12 -0500, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com
wrote:


Options after lever to forward then neutral but machine continues to
run are ----It's now not running in error long enough to do this.

Hang on Fred In this post you said that K2 was staying in for a few
seconds. Thats all we need to determine (1) if the it is in with 0
volts or (2) if it is in whilst the volts are still there.
Option 1 K2 Contactor sticky
Option 2 Selector switch sticky

You really need to prove this before getting a new contactor!

Btw it is not impossible to strip the contactor and check for crap. I
leave this to you.


--

Richard

Email address is valid but remove burrs before sending!

On 2008-02-05, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote:
Richard Edwards wrote:

[ ... ]

After running about an hour this morning and turning off normally with
the SA switch (apron lever) the K2 (forward) button is staying in 3 to 6
seconds, then clicking out. Comparatively, the reverse relay clicks out
almost instantaneously with the SA switch.

Hmm ... this looks to me as though it is a problem with contacts
in the "SA" selector switch not opening quickly -- or perhaps drawing an
arc which sustains for a few seconds before releasing. Is the SA switch
the block of black plastic with six terminals below the KM1 relay? Is
there a rod going from that through the side of the box and becoming the
switch rod connected to the apron lever? It doesn't look right, because
I don't see anything connected to terminal "4" on it (and I *think*
nothing connected to "3" either, so I suspect that SA is somewhere in
the pedestal at the end of the rod.

Anyway -- locate where the SA switch *really* is (and it should
be mechanically connected to the rod from the apron), and then run the
lathe until you have it hang up as described above. Then unplug the
lathe, and reach down to feel the switch. I suspect that you'll find
one pair of terminal screws are hot compared to the other two pair.

As for the relay itself -- try this -- with power to the system,
so be careful what you touch -- ideally, press the buttons in the
relays with insulating rods (plastic, dry wood, or whatever):

1) With the SA switch in the "STOP" position

2) Hold in the black button for KM1.

3) While holding it in, press in the black button for KM2.

The motor should start, and release immediately when you release
the button on KM2 or KM1. Either should pop out quickly instead of
after a delay.

If the relay moves slowly, then it is the relay. If it moves
quickly, it is more likely to be arcing in the SA switch -- or perhaps
just gummed up contacts which don't want to move easily once warm.

And I agree -- the diagram is a pretty bad one. More detail
about the SA switch would be nice.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Richard Edwards wrote:
On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 15:25:12 -0500, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com
wrote:


Options after lever to forward then neutral but machine continues to
run are ----It's now not running in error long enough to do this.

Hang on Fred In this post you said that K2 was staying in for a few
seconds. Thats all we need to determine (1) if the it is in with 0
volts or (2) if it is in whilst the volts are still there.
Option 1 K2 Contactor sticky
Option 2 Selector switch sticky

You really need to prove this before getting a new contactor!

Btw it is not impossible to strip the contactor and check for crap. I
leave this to you.


--

Richard

Email address is valid but remove burrs before sending!
Thanks to the input here. With all the new information, I've studied
the schematic and machine some more and I think terminal 7 controls KM2
and terminal 13 controls KM3 from the SA switch.

I tested 39 volts between terminal 7 and the transformer 0, when running
forward normally. This drops to 0 immediately when the SA switch is cut
off even though the KM2 relay has not tripped.

I think this isolates the KM2 relay as the culprit.

Since I have to take it out to find another one, I'll try and take it
apart and see if there is any obvious problem before I buy another.

Thank you for your help.

Fred

DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2008-02-05, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote:
Richard Edwards wrote:

[ ... ]

After running about an hour this morning and turning off normally with
the SA switch (apron lever) the K2 (forward) button is staying in 3 to 6
seconds, then clicking out. Comparatively, the reverse relay clicks out
almost instantaneously with the SA switch.

Hmm ... this looks to me as though it is a problem with contacts
in the "SA" selector switch not opening quickly -- or perhaps drawing an
arc which sustains for a few seconds before releasing. Is the SA switch
the block of black plastic with six terminals below the KM1 relay?
No, this is the (Over) heating relay.
Is
there a rod going from that through the side of the box and becoming the
switch rod connected to the apron lever? It doesn't look right, because
I don't see anything connected to terminal "4" on it (and I *think*
nothing connected to "3" either, so I suspect that SA is somewhere in
the pedestal at the end of the rod.
It is on the front of the machine

Anyway -- locate where the SA switch *really* is (and it should
be mechanically connected to the rod from the apron), and then run the
lathe until you have it hang up as described above. Then unplug the
lathe, and reach down to feel the switch. I suspect that you'll find
one pair of terminal screws are hot compared to the other two pair.

As for the relay itself -- try this -- with power to the system,
so be careful what you touch -- ideally, press the buttons in the
relays with insulating rods (plastic, dry wood, or whatever):

1) With the SA switch in the "STOP" position

2) Hold in the black button for KM1.

3) While holding it in, press in the black button for KM2.
KM1 and KM2 have two wires going between that I think only allow one to
operate at a time.

The motor should start, and release immediately when you release
the button on KM2 or KM1. Either should pop out quickly instead of
after a delay.

When pushed by hand both pop back quickly even when the lathe is
misbehaving.
If the relay moves slowly, then it is the relay. If it moves
quickly, it is more likely to be arcing in the SA switch -- or perhaps
just gummed up contacts which don't want to move easily once warm.

And I agree -- the diagram is a pretty bad one. More detail
about the SA switch would be nice.

Good Luck,
DoN.

I uploaded two more drawings:
1. Is a diagram of the connector bar and units in the panel
http://ornamentalroseengine.com/download/lathewire2.jpg
2. Shows the wire number labeling and diagram of the SA switch and other
switches.
I guess I should have uploaded all of this before.

I just posted the following at the original posting also:
------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks to the input here. With all the new information, I've studied
the schematic and machine some more and I think terminal 7 controls KM2
and terminal 13 controls KM3 from the SA switch.

I tested 39 volts between terminal 7 and the transformer 0, when running
forward normally. This drops to 0 immediately when the SA switch is cut
off even though the KM2 relay has not tripped.

I think this isolates the KM2 relay as the culprit.

Since I have to take it out to find another one, I'll try and take it
apart and see if there is any obvious problem before I buy another.

Thank you for your help.

Fred

On 2008-02-07, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2008-02-05, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com wrote:
Richard Edwards wrote:

[ ... ]

After running about an hour this morning and turning off normally with
the SA switch (apron lever) the K2 (forward) button is staying in 3 to 6
seconds, then clicking out. Comparatively, the reverse relay clicks out
almost instantaneously with the SA switch.

Hmm ... this looks to me as though it is a problem with contacts
in the "SA" selector switch not opening quickly -- or perhaps drawing an
arc which sustains for a few seconds before releasing. Is the SA switch
the block of black plastic with six terminals below the KM1 relay?

No, this is the (Over) heating relay.

O.K. The setup designed to drop power from the motor if it
stalls for whatever reason -- including a blown starting capacitor. It
will hum for a few seconds, and then all the relays will drop out when
the "FR" contacts in series with the KM1 relay coil open.

Is
there a rod going from that through the side of the box and becoming the
switch rod connected to the apron lever? It doesn't look right, because
I don't see anything connected to terminal "4" on it (and I *think*
nothing connected to "3" either, so I suspect that SA is somewhere in
the pedestal at the end of the rod.

It is on the front of the machine

O.K. Outside of the pedestal, where chips could get at it?

Anyway -- locate where the SA switch *really* is (and it should
be mechanically connected to the rod from the apron), and then run the
lathe until you have it hang up as described above. Then unplug the
lathe, and reach down to feel the switch. I suspect that you'll find
one pair of terminal screws are hot compared to the other two pair.

As for the relay itself -- try this -- with power to the system,
so be careful what you touch -- ideally, press the buttons in the
relays with insulating rods (plastic, dry wood, or whatever):

1) With the SA switch in the "STOP" position

2) Hold in the black button for KM1.

3) While holding it in, press in the black button for KM2.

[ ... ]

KM1 and KM2 have two wires going between that I think only allow one to
operate at a time.

That is actually KM2 and KM3, as one connects the motor for
forward, and the other for reverse. KM1 is the master run/stop relay.
The cross wiring to keep KM2 and KM3 from being energized at the same
time are the presence of the contacts from KM2 in series with the coil
for KM3, and vice versa. Push both KM2 and KM3 at the same time and the
breaker will blow very quickly as you will have a short across the power
line to the motor. And you are likely to weld the contacts in at least
one of the relays as well.

The motor should start, and release immediately when you release
the button on KM2 or KM1. Either should pop out quickly instead of
after a delay.

When pushed by hand both pop back quickly even when the lathe is
misbehaving.

O.K. So if it isn't arcing holding it in (as your test on
Terminal 7 seems to indicate) then there is either an arc between power
contacts on the relay, or the contacts are not moving freely, even
though the solenoid actuator does.

If the relay moves slowly, then it is the relay. If it moves
quickly, it is more likely to be arcing in the SA switch -- or perhaps
just gummed up contacts which don't want to move easily once warm.

I still feel that the SA switch is the culprit.

And I agree -- the diagram is a pretty bad one. More detail
about the SA switch would be nice.

[ ... ]

I uploaded two more drawings:
1. Is a diagram of the connector bar and units in the panel
http://ornamentalroseengine.com/download/lathewire2.jpg

But you only gave the URL for one. I guessed (correctly) that
the other was:

http://ornamentalroseengine.com/download/lathewire3.jpg


2. Shows the wire number labeling and diagram of the SA switch and other
switches.
I guess I should have uploaded all of this before.

It would have helped somewhat.

I just posted the following at the original posting also:
------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks to the input here. With all the new information, I've studied
the schematic and machine some more and I think terminal 7 controls KM2
and terminal 13 controls KM3 from the SA switch.

Terminal 7 on the schematic being the one between terminal 2 of
the SA switch and the contacts of KM3 in series with the coil of KM2?
That looks more like a 'T' than a '7'. And I notice that the drawing of
SA shows only the numbers of the wires to which it is connected, not the
terminal numbers on the switch itself. And I guess the black dots show
which contacts are closed in which position of the lever. It looks as
though you must be in the stop position for the contacts connected
between 4 and 5 to be closed, so the SB2 switch can turn on power to the
other relays.

Are those high side of the relay coil contacts labeled 6, 8, and
10? I'm not sure about the '8'. But anyway, that is where I would be
measuring the power to the relay coils. I wish that I could see where
the terminals on the relays are for the coil wiring.

HL1 tells you when power is available to the lathe, and HL2 when
you have pressed SB2 under the proper conditions to turn on power to the
relays.

It looks as though KM1 stays engaged until you hit SB1 or until
the overheat contact drops the relay.

I tested 39 volts between terminal 7 and the transformer 0, when running
forward normally. This drops to 0 immediately when the SA switch is cut
off even though the KM2 relay has not tripped.

I think this isolates the KM2 relay as the culprit.

Hmm ... if '7' is truly where I think it is on the schematic,
then yes I agree after all.

Since I have to take it out to find another one, I'll try and take it
apart and see if there is any obvious problem before I buy another.

There could be chips holding the relay engaged, or someone tried
lubricating it and the lube gummed up. (The relays should not be
lubed.)

Thank you for your help.

You're welcome.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 19:12:06 -0500, Fred warydragon--at--gmail.com
wrote:


I think this isolates the KM2 relay as the culprit.

Since I have to take it out to find another one, I'll try and take it
apart and see if there is any obvious problem before I buy another.

Thank you for your help.

Fred
So? Are you up and running, or still looking for all of the springs
that flew out of your contactor when you stripped it?

--

Richard

Email address is valid but remove burrs before sending!