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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#81
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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48 volt car elect not going to happen
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ... Doctors kill 900,000+ people a year in the USA. Simply driving cars kills 43k in the US, 1 million worldwide. Eating fast food/heart disease kills 600k. And every one of those threats is beside the point of what we are talking about. Ask Vaughn "Which is the greater threat, us or the voltage in vehicles?" We are talking about adding a new occupational hazard for mechanics (and firefighters etc.) If the hazard exists, the eventual results are just a matter of statistics. Given sufficient opportunity, injuries/deaths from any new hazard will eventually happen, we just don't know how often. To the rest of us, it' s a moot point. Then why did you even bother responding? It sure won't be a "moot point" to mechanics! Regards Vaughn |
#82
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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48 volt car elect not going to happen
On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 11:30:06 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Vaughn Simon" quickly quoth: "Larry Jaques" wrote in message .. . Doctors kill 900,000+ people a year in the USA. Simply driving cars kills 43k in the US, 1 million worldwide. Eating fast food/heart disease kills 600k. And every one of those threats is beside the point of what we are talking about. Lose your tunnel vision for a second and you'll see that risk is what we're talking about. Even at 48V, electricians take a much greater risk working at higher voltages every day than mechanics would. My point is that our hobbies and occupations are inherently risky. That may be why some of us are attracted to them. If you're not, fine. But take a look around. Most folks will want manufacturers to say "There is a new risk here and here are the safeguards. I want to know about it but I don't want sixty laws protecting me from it or myself, TYVM." Of course, I think the protection of criminals on death row from committing suicide is just as assinine. So sue me. Ask Vaughn "Which is the greater threat, us or the voltage in vehicles?" We are talking about adding a new occupational hazard for mechanics (and firefighters etc.) If the hazard exists, the eventual results are just a matter of statistics. Given sufficient opportunity, injuries/deaths from any new hazard will eventually happen, we just don't know how often. Add the word "possible" and I might tend to agree, just a bit. To the rest of us, it' s a moot point. Then why did you even bother responding? It sure won't be a "moot point" to mechanics! Since I used to be one, I thought my voice might have some credence. YMMV. -- Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do. -- Confucius |
#83
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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48 volt car elect not going to happen - query to Don Forman
Not to hijack the thread , but this is related. Is there any movement to
LED headlights? If so/not, why/why not. Seems to me that the light would be better and made to be easier on the eyes and reliability would be better. Bob |
#84
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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48 volt car elect not going to happen
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ... On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 11:30:06 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Vaughn Simon" quickly quoth: "Larry Jaques" wrote in message . .. Doctors kill 900,000+ people a year in the USA. Simply driving cars kills 43k in the US, 1 million worldwide. Eating fast food/heart disease kills 600k. And every one of those threats is beside the point of what we are talking about. Lose your tunnel vision for a second and you'll see that risk is what we're talking about. Even at 48V, electricians take a much greater risk working at higher voltages every day than mechanics would. My point is OK Larry, I read your ideas carefully for the second time. Speaking as respectfully as possible, they are still beside the point. I fly, which means that I take chances that I don't really have to take. That hobby has nothing to do with the on-the-job safety of the guy who works on my car. Vaughn |
#85
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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48 volt car elect not going to happen
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ... On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 21:33:58 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Vaughn Simon" quickly quoth: Statistically, flying is MUCH safer than driving. Not when you are flying yourself in a light plane. The statistics for auto travel are better than those for general aviation by a considerable margin. Besides, my flying is not really "travel", but just recreation, so comparing to auto travel is not really relevant. I would be much safer sitting in my living room. In summary, perhaps it would be better if we just let the guy who works on our cars decide for themselves what is and isn't dangerous But in the case of the 48-volt electrical, they won't be part of the decision making process. If they want to continue feeding their families, they will accept whatever vehicle they are given to work on, and accept whatever hazards are involved. Our country is turning into a nanny state enough as it is. Protecting workers is a special case. Even though we have a free market system for labor, the average middle-class worker does not always get to choose where to work, or what to work on. The economic realities of everyday life often make these little decisions for us. OK, I have a special perspective on worker safety and let me tell you why. My wife used to work in a dental lab. (Think of a miniature foundry/machine shop) While she was working there, they changed the composition of some of the metal they were working with, but did not consider the workers important enough to even bother informing them, let alone take any steps to assure their safety. Today, my wife's lungs are ruined, functioning at only a fraction of their normal capacity because they are forever scarred from beryllium disease. Someone knew the dangers of beryllium (it has been well documented for ages) , but thought that losing the occasional lab worker was not important compared to the profits from using a cheaper metal. Statisticly speaking, perhaps they are right. But it sure doesn't seem that way when it hits in your own home. Once a year, we travel to a special beryllium disease clinic so my wife's condition can be monitored. She is bad enough, but not nearly as bad as some of the other cases I see. Imagine a whole line of mostly ex-metalworkers, most of them on oxygen. None of them will ever be cured. Every one of them just a statistic. Just a statistic that is, until you meet them up close & personal. I hope it never happens you you Larry, or to anyone close to you. Worker safety matters. Vaughn |
#86
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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48 volt car elect not going to happen
On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 02:59:02 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Vaughn Simon" quickly quoth: "Larry Jaques" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 21:33:58 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Vaughn Simon" quickly quoth: Statistically, flying is MUCH safer than driving. Not when you are flying yourself in a light plane. The statistics for auto travel are better than those for general aviation by a considerable margin. Besides, my flying is not really "travel", but just recreation, so comparing to auto travel is not really relevant. I would be much safer sitting in my living room. OK, so your risks are a lot higher than commercial aircraft. But it's so much more FUN in a small plane! I miss it. Dad and I used to go up, and he let me take off and fly after I passed the Basic Aviation class in high school. In summary, perhaps it would be better if we just let the guy who works on our cars decide for themselves what is and isn't dangerous But in the case of the 48-volt electrical, they won't be part of the decision making process. If they want to continue feeding their families, they will accept whatever vehicle they are given to work on, and accept whatever hazards are involved. Hayseuss Crisco, Vaughn. They have also had to face the risks of compressed air, revolving fans, sharp sheetmetal edges, moving fan belts, hoods dropping, doors slamming, lifts falling, greasy floors, gas fumes, gas explosions, oil toxicity on body parts, fabric offgassing of formaldehyde, benzene exposure, chlorofluorocarbons, etc. If any of them had -your- eccentric fears, nobody would be left working as a wrench nowadays. chortle Our country is turning into a nanny state enough as it is. Protecting workers is a special case. Even though we have a free market system for labor, the average middle-class worker does not always get to choose where to work, or what to work on. The economic realities of everyday life often make these little decisions for us. Overprotection. What's the end result of seven to ten warning stickers on any given piece of machinery, or on the sides of cig packages? Everyone ignores them. Damned lawyers and lawsuits. My new truck has warning stickers all over the freakin' sun visors. I'll be steaming them off shortly. OK, I have a special perspective on worker safety and let me tell you why. My wife used to work in a dental lab. (Think of a miniature foundry/machine shop) While she was working there, they changed the composition of some of the metal they were working with, but did not consider the workers important enough to even bother informing them, let alone take any steps to assure their safety. Today, my wife's lungs are ruined, functioning at only a fraction of their normal capacity because they are forever scarred from beryllium disease. Drat, that's a real bummer. But, it went with the times. Everyone smoked back then, too, even doctors. Did you find out whether or not the lab was operating according to industrial standards back then? In the '70s, I worked doing brake jobs (real asbestos) or covered in grease/oil or around smoking tailpipes (without gloves or breathing apparati) as a mechanic for 15+ years. We were warned about breathing the brake dust and we tried not to. 'Nuff said. I know the owners of Vista Brake and I don't recall any of them having had any lung problems. They worked around it their entire lives, and father Bill smoked. One of the sons went to UTI with me. I'm starting to get barnacles from the amount of sun I absorbed as a kid and younger adult. We weren't warned very hard back then. Someone knew the dangers of beryllium (it has been well documented for ages) , but thought that losing the occasional lab worker was not important compared to the profits from using a cheaper metal. Statisticly speaking, perhaps they are right. But it sure doesn't seem that way when it hits in your own home. Yeah, that's major suckage, to be sure. But the change in voltage isn't as high a risk as inhaling metallic dusts. It's something to be careful about. Once a year, we travel to a special beryllium disease clinic so my wife's condition can be monitored. She is bad enough, but not nearly as bad as some of the other cases I see. Imagine a whole line of mostly ex-metalworkers, most of them on oxygen. None of them will ever be cured. Every one of them just a statistic. Just a statistic that is, until you meet them up close & personal. Because you're so close to one, I believe you're overreacting. I hope it never happens you you Larry, or to anyone close to you. Thanks. So do I. Worker safety matters. Indeed it does, but nannying doesn't. -- Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do. -- Confucius |
#87
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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48 volt car elect not going to happen - query to Don Forman
On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:21:39 -0500, Bob Miller rhmillatenter.net
wrote: Not to hijack the thread , but this is related. Is there any movement to LED headlights? If so/not, why/why not. Seems to me that the light would be better and made to be easier on the eyes and reliability would be better. The lumen density and focus-ability isn't there for LED headlights - at least yet, IMHO. You would need a whole panel full of 3W Luxeon style LEDs being driven rather hard - which lowers their expected lifespan. And rather sophisticated optics to deal with making a directed beam with a hard vertical cut-off (for the low beams) out of multiple point sources in close proximity - a compound lens like a fly eye. And then you have to deal with all the heat off the LEDs, a big fan forced heat sink - let the LEDs overheat and they die fast. A metal halide or xenon short arc style discharge lamp system makes a lot more sense for the near term. They make a lot of heat but are not nearly as temperature-sensitive to their environment, so you can operate the headlights during the day in a hot climate without cooking themselves to death. They are quite energy input to lumens output efficient. The optics are a lot easier with only one point source to focus and distribute - and modify with a shutter or lens focal change for the High Beam/Low Beam pattern transition. They make LED backup lamps, but IMHO they are more for looks and legal requirements than useful light output - takes four to replace two 1156 incandescents. Same problem applies, they could stuff two of them full of 3W Luxeon's, and they wouldn't have to worry about optics for flood lighting - but then you would have to put a huge heat sink on the back and have free air flow or a fan cooling system. They could not be used as a drop-in replacement for a standard 4" grommet-mount truck lamp where the backside of the lamp is usually a small sealed cavity. You can't sell backup lights or headlights with a duty-cycle time limit on them. Unless you put hard thermal cut-offs on them, so they shut down when overheated - and that would never pass the FMVSS inspection process... Well, you could, but you'll get a lot of warranty returns from people who didn't bother to read the instructions about duty-cycle limits, and either left the vehicle parked in Reverse so they could hitch up a trailer, or installed them as Work Lights and deliberately left them running to destruction. -- Bruce -- |
#88
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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48 volt car elect not going to happen - query to Don Forman
On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:21:39 -0500, Bob Miller rhmillatenter.net
wrote: Not to hijack the thread , but this is related. Is there any movement to LED headlights? If so/not, why/why not. Seems to me that the light would be better and made to be easier on the eyes and reliability would be better. Bob Yes, but it's in the "concept car" stage at this point. I don't recall who, Porsche or Audi perhaps. It will happen sooner than later. LED technology is advancing much more rapidly than any other illumination technology. Viable designs have been demonstrated, the performance is there. The issue is already one of cost vs peformance, and that'll develop as the technology matures. |
#89
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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48 volt car elect not going to happen
On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 02:59:02 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote: "Larry Jaques" wrote in message .. . On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 21:33:58 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Vaughn Simon" quickly quoth: Statistically, flying is MUCH safer than driving. Not when you are flying yourself in a light plane. The statistics for auto travel are better than those for general aviation by a considerable margin. Besides, my flying is not really "travel", but just recreation, so comparing to auto travel is not really relevant. I would be much safer sitting in my living room. In summary, perhaps it would be better if we just let the guy who works on our cars decide for themselves what is and isn't dangerous But in the case of the 48-volt electrical, they won't be part of the decision making process. If they want to continue feeding their families, they will accept whatever vehicle they are given to work on, and accept whatever hazards are involved. Oh...like Electricians? Gunner |
#90
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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48 volt car elect not going to happen - query to Don Forman
On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:21:39 -0500, Bob Miller rhmillatenter.net wrote:
Not to hijack the thread , but this is related. Is there any movement to LED headlights? If so/not, why/why not. Yes. One maker has announced intro with 2009 models. Caddy, I think. Problem is getting enough lumens on the road. IIRC they were using several modules (maybe 5?) for "low" beam, but only two modules for high. (that was per side) We'll see... sdb -- What's seen on your screen? http://PcScreenWatch.com sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com |
#91
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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48 volt car elect not going to happen
Ignoramus wrote:
That was a joke question... Sarcasm doesn't work well online. -- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida |
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