Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default 48 volt car elect not going to happen


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

Doctors kill 900,000+ people a year in the USA. Simply driving cars
kills 43k in the US, 1 million worldwide. Eating fast food/heart
disease kills 600k.


And every one of those threats is beside the point of what we are talking
about.

Ask Vaughn "Which is the greater threat, us or the
voltage in vehicles?"


We are talking about adding a new occupational hazard for mechanics (and
firefighters etc.) If the hazard exists, the eventual results are just a matter
of statistics. Given sufficient opportunity, injuries/deaths from any new
hazard will eventually happen, we just don't know how often.

To the rest of us, it' s a moot point.


Then why did you even bother responding? It sure won't be a "moot point" to
mechanics!

Regards
Vaughn




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Default 48 volt car elect not going to happen

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 11:30:06 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Vaughn Simon" quickly quoth:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .

Doctors kill 900,000+ people a year in the USA. Simply driving cars
kills 43k in the US, 1 million worldwide. Eating fast food/heart
disease kills 600k.


And every one of those threats is beside the point of what we are talking
about.


Lose your tunnel vision for a second and you'll see that risk is what
we're talking about. Even at 48V, electricians take a much greater
risk working at higher voltages every day than mechanics would. My
point is that our hobbies and occupations are inherently risky. That
may be why some of us are attracted to them. If you're not, fine. But
take a look around. Most folks will want manufacturers to say "There
is a new risk here and here are the safeguards. I want to know about
it but I don't want sixty laws protecting me from it or myself, TYVM."
Of course, I think the protection of criminals on death row from
committing suicide is just as assinine. So sue me.


Ask Vaughn "Which is the greater threat, us or the
voltage in vehicles?"


We are talking about adding a new occupational hazard for mechanics (and
firefighters etc.) If the hazard exists, the eventual results are just a matter
of statistics. Given sufficient opportunity, injuries/deaths from any new
hazard will eventually happen, we just don't know how often.


Add the word "possible" and I might tend to agree, just a bit.


To the rest of us, it' s a moot point.


Then why did you even bother responding? It sure won't be a "moot point" to
mechanics!


Since I used to be one, I thought my voice might have some credence.
YMMV.

--
Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do.
-- Confucius
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Default 48 volt car elect not going to happen - query to Don Forman

Not to hijack the thread , but this is related. Is there any movement to
LED headlights? If so/not, why/why not.

Seems to me that the light would be better and made to be easier on the
eyes and reliability would be better.



Bob
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Default 48 volt car elect not going to happen


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 11:30:06 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Vaughn Simon" quickly quoth:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..

Doctors kill 900,000+ people a year in the USA. Simply driving cars
kills 43k in the US, 1 million worldwide. Eating fast food/heart
disease kills 600k.


And every one of those threats is beside the point of what we are talking
about.


Lose your tunnel vision for a second and you'll see that risk is what
we're talking about. Even at 48V, electricians take a much greater
risk working at higher voltages every day than mechanics would. My
point is


OK Larry, I read your ideas carefully for the second time. Speaking as
respectfully as possible, they are still beside the point. I fly, which means
that I take chances that I don't really have to take. That hobby has nothing to
do with the on-the-job safety of the guy who works on my car.

Vaughn


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Default 48 volt car elect not going to happen


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 21:33:58 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Vaughn Simon" quickly quoth:
Statistically, flying is MUCH safer than driving.


Not when you are flying yourself in a light plane. The statistics for auto
travel are better than those for general aviation by a considerable margin.
Besides, my flying is not really "travel", but just recreation, so comparing to
auto travel is not really relevant. I would be much safer sitting in my living
room.


In summary, perhaps it would be better if we just let the guy who
works on our cars decide for themselves what is and isn't dangerous


But in the case of the 48-volt electrical, they won't be part of the decision
making process. If they want to continue feeding their families, they will
accept whatever vehicle they are given to work on, and accept whatever hazards
are involved.

Our country is turning into a nanny state enough as it is.


Protecting workers is a special case. Even though we have a free market
system for labor, the average middle-class worker does not always get to choose
where to work, or what to work on. The economic realities of everyday life
often make these little decisions for us.

OK, I have a special perspective on worker safety and let me tell you why.
My wife used to work in a dental lab. (Think of a miniature foundry/machine
shop) While she was working there, they changed the composition of some of the
metal they were working with, but did not consider the workers important enough
to even bother informing them, let alone take any steps to assure their safety.
Today, my wife's lungs are ruined, functioning at only a fraction of their
normal capacity because they are forever scarred from beryllium disease.

Someone knew the dangers of beryllium (it has been well documented for ages) ,
but thought that losing the occasional lab worker was not important compared to
the profits from using a cheaper metal. Statisticly speaking, perhaps they are
right. But it sure doesn't seem that way when it hits in your own home.

Once a year, we travel to a special beryllium disease clinic so my wife's
condition can be monitored. She is bad enough, but not nearly as bad as some of
the other cases I see. Imagine a whole line of mostly ex-metalworkers, most of
them on oxygen. None of them will ever be cured. Every one of them just a
statistic. Just a statistic that is, until you meet them up close & personal.

I hope it never happens you you Larry, or to anyone close to you.

Worker safety matters.

Vaughn





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Default 48 volt car elect not going to happen

On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 02:59:02 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Vaughn Simon" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 21:33:58 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Vaughn Simon" quickly quoth:
Statistically, flying is MUCH safer than driving.


Not when you are flying yourself in a light plane. The statistics for auto
travel are better than those for general aviation by a considerable margin.
Besides, my flying is not really "travel", but just recreation, so comparing to
auto travel is not really relevant. I would be much safer sitting in my living
room.


OK, so your risks are a lot higher than commercial aircraft. But it's
so much more FUN in a small plane! I miss it. Dad and I used to go
up, and he let me take off and fly after I passed the Basic Aviation
class in high school.


In summary, perhaps it would be better if we just let the guy who
works on our cars decide for themselves what is and isn't dangerous


But in the case of the 48-volt electrical, they won't be part of the decision
making process. If they want to continue feeding their families, they will
accept whatever vehicle they are given to work on, and accept whatever hazards
are involved.


Hayseuss Crisco, Vaughn. They have also had to face the risks of
compressed air, revolving fans, sharp sheetmetal edges, moving fan
belts, hoods dropping, doors slamming, lifts falling, greasy floors,
gas fumes, gas explosions, oil toxicity on body parts, fabric
offgassing of formaldehyde, benzene exposure, chlorofluorocarbons,
etc. If any of them had -your- eccentric fears, nobody would be left
working as a wrench nowadays. chortle


Our country is turning into a nanny state enough as it is.


Protecting workers is a special case. Even though we have a free market
system for labor, the average middle-class worker does not always get to choose
where to work, or what to work on. The economic realities of everyday life
often make these little decisions for us.


Overprotection. What's the end result of seven to ten warning stickers
on any given piece of machinery, or on the sides of cig packages?
Everyone ignores them. Damned lawyers and lawsuits. My new truck has
warning stickers all over the freakin' sun visors. I'll be steaming
them off shortly.


OK, I have a special perspective on worker safety and let me tell you why.
My wife used to work in a dental lab. (Think of a miniature foundry/machine
shop) While she was working there, they changed the composition of some of the
metal they were working with, but did not consider the workers important enough
to even bother informing them, let alone take any steps to assure their safety.
Today, my wife's lungs are ruined, functioning at only a fraction of their
normal capacity because they are forever scarred from beryllium disease.


Drat, that's a real bummer. But, it went with the times. Everyone
smoked back then, too, even doctors. Did you find out whether or not
the lab was operating according to industrial standards back then?

In the '70s, I worked doing brake jobs (real asbestos) or covered in
grease/oil or around smoking tailpipes (without gloves or breathing
apparati) as a mechanic for 15+ years. We were warned about breathing
the brake dust and we tried not to. 'Nuff said. I know the owners of
Vista Brake and I don't recall any of them having had any lung
problems. They worked around it their entire lives, and father Bill
smoked. One of the sons went to UTI with me.

I'm starting to get barnacles from the amount of sun I absorbed as a
kid and younger adult. We weren't warned very hard back then.


Someone knew the dangers of beryllium (it has been well documented for ages) ,
but thought that losing the occasional lab worker was not important compared to
the profits from using a cheaper metal. Statisticly speaking, perhaps they are
right. But it sure doesn't seem that way when it hits in your own home.


Yeah, that's major suckage, to be sure. But the change in voltage
isn't as high a risk as inhaling metallic dusts. It's something to be
careful about.


Once a year, we travel to a special beryllium disease clinic so my wife's
condition can be monitored. She is bad enough, but not nearly as bad as some of
the other cases I see. Imagine a whole line of mostly ex-metalworkers, most of
them on oxygen. None of them will ever be cured. Every one of them just a
statistic. Just a statistic that is, until you meet them up close & personal.


Because you're so close to one, I believe you're overreacting.


I hope it never happens you you Larry, or to anyone close to you.


Thanks. So do I.


Worker safety matters.


Indeed it does, but nannying doesn't.

--
Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do.
-- Confucius
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Default 48 volt car elect not going to happen - query to Don Forman

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:21:39 -0500, Bob Miller rhmillatenter.net
wrote:

Not to hijack the thread , but this is related. Is there any movement to
LED headlights? If so/not, why/why not.

Seems to me that the light would be better and made to be easier on the
eyes and reliability would be better.


The lumen density and focus-ability isn't there for LED headlights -
at least yet, IMHO. You would need a whole panel full of 3W Luxeon
style LEDs being driven rather hard - which lowers their expected
lifespan. And rather sophisticated optics to deal with making a
directed beam with a hard vertical cut-off (for the low beams) out of
multiple point sources in close proximity - a compound lens like a fly
eye. And then you have to deal with all the heat off the LEDs, a big
fan forced heat sink - let the LEDs overheat and they die fast.

A metal halide or xenon short arc style discharge lamp system makes
a lot more sense for the near term. They make a lot of heat but are
not nearly as temperature-sensitive to their environment, so you can
operate the headlights during the day in a hot climate without cooking
themselves to death. They are quite energy input to lumens output
efficient. The optics are a lot easier with only one point source to
focus and distribute - and modify with a shutter or lens focal change
for the High Beam/Low Beam pattern transition.

They make LED backup lamps, but IMHO they are more for looks and
legal requirements than useful light output - takes four to replace
two 1156 incandescents.

Same problem applies, they could stuff two of them full of 3W
Luxeon's, and they wouldn't have to worry about optics for flood
lighting - but then you would have to put a huge heat sink on the back
and have free air flow or a fan cooling system. They could not be
used as a drop-in replacement for a standard 4" grommet-mount truck
lamp where the backside of the lamp is usually a small sealed cavity.

You can't sell backup lights or headlights with a duty-cycle time
limit on them. Unless you put hard thermal cut-offs on them, so they
shut down when overheated - and that would never pass the FMVSS
inspection process...

Well, you could, but you'll get a lot of warranty returns from
people who didn't bother to read the instructions about duty-cycle
limits, and either left the vehicle parked in Reverse so they could
hitch up a trailer, or installed them as Work Lights and deliberately
left them running to destruction.

-- Bruce --

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Default 48 volt car elect not going to happen - query to Don Forman

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:21:39 -0500, Bob Miller rhmillatenter.net
wrote:

Not to hijack the thread , but this is related. Is there any movement to
LED headlights? If so/not, why/why not.

Seems to me that the light would be better and made to be easier on the
eyes and reliability would be better.



Bob


Yes, but it's in the "concept car" stage at this point. I don't
recall who, Porsche or Audi perhaps.

It will happen sooner than later. LED technology is advancing much
more rapidly than any other illumination technology.

Viable designs have been demonstrated, the performance is there. The
issue is already one of cost vs peformance, and that'll develop as
the technology matures.
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Default 48 volt car elect not going to happen

On Sat, 09 Feb 2008 02:59:02 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 21:33:58 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Vaughn Simon" quickly quoth:
Statistically, flying is MUCH safer than driving.


Not when you are flying yourself in a light plane. The statistics for auto
travel are better than those for general aviation by a considerable margin.
Besides, my flying is not really "travel", but just recreation, so comparing to
auto travel is not really relevant. I would be much safer sitting in my living
room.


In summary, perhaps it would be better if we just let the guy who
works on our cars decide for themselves what is and isn't dangerous


But in the case of the 48-volt electrical, they won't be part of the decision
making process. If they want to continue feeding their families, they will
accept whatever vehicle they are given to work on, and accept whatever hazards
are involved.



Oh...like Electricians?

Gunner
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Default 48 volt car elect not going to happen - query to Don Forman

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:21:39 -0500, Bob Miller rhmillatenter.net wrote:
Not to hijack the thread , but this is related. Is there any movement to
LED headlights? If so/not, why/why not.


Yes. One maker has announced intro with 2009 models. Caddy, I think.

Problem is getting enough lumens on the road. IIRC they were using
several modules (maybe 5?) for "low" beam, but only two modules for
high. (that was per side) We'll see...

sdb

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sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com


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Default 48 volt car elect not going to happen

Ignoramus wrote:

That was a joke question...



Sarcasm doesn't work well online.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
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