48v is dangerous when considering a sweaty (salt) body - auto mechanic...
In shops the habit is to un-hook the battery and hope something doesn't
just come on. The DC motors on fans started that, but neck chains,
nose pins, .... rings and the normal stuff makes good resistance.

Getting a ring across 6V melts the gold/silver/copper metal and burns
off the finger. Rather instantly since it is red hot.

Sweaty body parts - left leg and left hand is dangerous but the right
hand to left leg is worse. I normally worked with my right hand
in my pocket when possible. Impulse actions grabbing a dropping xxx
can be the worse action.

Believe that 12 and 24 is dangerous enough. Higher voltage just makes
it easier to be harmful.

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Stephen Robinson wrote:
Leo Lichtman wrote:
"Stephen Robinson" wrote: You need the VOLTAGE to to push the
CURRENT in order to kill
someone(approx 30 mA).The human body is a very high resistance
object, which needs very high voltage to provide that current. 48v
ain't gonna be enough.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It is refreshing that SOMEONE seems to know this. However, I have a
couple of reservations about your second sentence. The resistance of
the body is almost entirely in the skin, which is quite high when
dry. If, somehow, you got across some voltage while wet, or perhaps
bleeding from an accident, the resistance could be very much lower.
Secondly, the amount of current that can be lethal depends on the path
through the body. The worst would be across the shoulders, which
places the heart in the circuit. The path from one hand to the
other, or from one hand to some lower part of the body could also be
quite dangerous.

Agreed, I still don't think 48 v is going to be very dangerous.

On 2008-02-03, Stephen Robinson wrote:
Carl Byrns wrote:
"Stephen Robinson" wrote in message
...

[ ... ]

How will 48v kill people, except for causing a fire, which 12 v is quite
capable of doing that also.

Do you own an arc welder? Look at the open circuit voltage(should be on the
case somewhere). Now look at all the shock hazard warnings.

If you don't own an arc welder the open circuit voltage is usually around 48
volts and arc voltage is around 25 volts (sound familiar?) and at the right
amperage that is enough to kill you.

You need the VOLTAGE to to push the CURRENT in order to kill
someone(approx 30 mA).The human body is a very high resistance object,

No -- the human *skin* is a fairly high resistance object,
though it varies with perspiration, and emotional stress (among other
things). Remember that skin resistance is one of the parameters charted
by lie detectors.

If you have two small cuts or punctures (try pins in one finger
of each hand) as little as 6V is sufficient to stop the heart. This
bypasses the skin. And the needed current is not amps, but mA.

It may not kill immediately, but it can hold muscles contracted
causing you to hold onto the source of the current, so the heart will
fail in not too long a time. I know that I had a voltage of about 48
VDC with some AC on it get hold of me through a sharp corner of a heat
sink. I could not control the muscles of that arm to pull it clear.
The only way I got clear was to grasp the wrist with the other hand, and
yank it with the muscles of that hand.

which needs very high voltage to provide that current. 48v ain't gonna
be enough.

Try between wet sweaty palms and wet sweaty feet on concrete.
And DC is worse than AC, because it never reaches zero to let you get
control of the muscles for even a millisecond.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

I worked for the local cable company for over 18 years.... and at that
time, the plant was powered with 60Volt AC. We did all the splicing,
coring of the cable, etc., while AC was on and occasionally would get
a bite. Worst was while it was raining and everything was wet....
however, I understand the entire system is now powered with 90 Volt
AC. We never died.....
Ken.


I accidentally fully grabbed a flyback transformer. Working on televisions
at the age of 15 back in the 50's. I stared at that hand for about 4-5
seconds totally unable to uncurl my fingers. Then I remembered why my older
mentor had told me to keep one hand in my pocket. Used the free hand to
unplug the cheater cord from the back of the telly. BTW, I just now
realized why they must have designed those cords to plug into the set
instead of hard-wiring them with strain reliefs etc.

Ivan Vegvary

Ivan Vegvary wrote:

I worked for the local cable company for over 18 years.... and at that
time, the plant was powered with 60Volt AC. We did all the splicing,
coring of the cable, etc., while AC was on and occasionally would get
a bite. Worst was while it was raining and everything was wet....
however, I understand the entire system is now powered with 90 Volt
AC. We never died.....
Ken.



I accidentally fully grabbed a flyback transformer. Working on televisions
at the age of 15 back in the 50's. I stared at that hand for about 4-5
seconds totally unable to uncurl my fingers. Then I remembered why my older
mentor had told me to keep one hand in my pocket. Used the free hand to
unplug the cheater cord from the back of the telly. BTW, I just now
realized why they must have designed those cords to plug into the set
instead of hard-wiring them with strain reliefs etc.

Ivan Vegvary



Sometimes it takes a while...

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...
Carl Byrns wrote:
The high(er) voltage car electrical system is not going to happen anytime
soon. The reasons, according to an article in Car and Driver are a)
reliable circuit protection hasn't been developed to the point where
manufacturers are 100% sure a loose wire or a short won't result in a
shock or fire and b) 12 volts is an ideal voltage for headlight
filaments- higher voltages mandate thinner filaments which don't survive
bumps and bangs very well. Apparently GM was going to 48 volts for the
2006 model year, but backed off mostly because of the circuit protection
issue.

So sorry you are so far behind the times. The Prius has had a 300 V DC
supply for about 9 (?) years, now. There are several us-label cars with
42 V systems for their start/stop engines.

You need to catch up- the 48 volt system would drive ALL the accessories
(wipers, blower motor, ect) and not just the hybrid drive. The reasoning is
that higher voltage would mean smaller, lighter motors and lighter gauge
copper wiring.

-Carl

PS We have two Prius in the family.

Larry Jaques wrote:

24v bites too. I used to be a Phantom Phixer. F4-J / F4-S

So do fans and fan belts (and lathes, mills, saws, & grinders), but
you're careful when working around them, right?

"WTF is the difference?" he queried, innocently.


It is 'only' twenty four volts.

Wes

On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 22:18:59 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Martin H. Eastburn" quickly quoth:

48v is dangerous when considering a sweaty (salt) body - auto mechanic...
In shops the habit is to un-hook the battery and hope something doesn't
just come on. The DC motors on fans started that, but neck chains,
nose pins, .... rings and the normal stuff makes good resistance.

As an ex-wrench, I'd agree from my own history, but I have not seen a
mechanic without gloves on his hands (cloth, leather, latex, or
nitrile) in nearly a decade. Yes, I've been shocked by a battery.
Usually the back of my arm across the terminal. It can be interesting.

With 42v systems, I'm sure that battery disconnection would become
standard in many more shops. Smart mfgrs would install cutoff switches
for that purpose; cheaper than all that warranty time.


I normally worked with my right hand
in my pocket when possible.

You worked one handed, eh? A union shop, I presume. bseg

--
Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do.
-- Confucius

Carl Byrns wrote:
You need to catch up- the 48 volt system would drive ALL the accessories
(wipers, blower motor, ect) and not just the hybrid drive. The reasoning is
that higher voltage would mean smaller, lighter motors and lighter gauge
copper wiring.

-Carl

Lighter gage wire yes but less iron NO. For a constant amount
of power (HP) you will need same size iron core FOR DC.
If you go to AC sure as in 400 cps . Which brings up a good
point why not use an inverter and make the accessories AC?
With the current technology of VFD s it should do wonders
for reducing weight, wire, etc.
...lew...

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 06:35:10 -0700, Lew Hartswick
wrote:

Carl Byrns wrote:
You need to catch up- the 48 volt system would drive ALL the accessories
(wipers, blower motor, ect) and not just the hybrid drive. The reasoning is
that higher voltage would mean smaller, lighter motors and lighter gauge
copper wiring.

-Carl

Lighter gage wire yes but less iron NO. For a constant amount
of power (HP) you will need same size iron core FOR DC.

I don't think so, Lew. I think the same copper, current, iron, flux
density etc will deliver 4X the power at 4X the voltage because it
will provide same torque at 4X the speed -- if it can mechanically
handle the speed. Speed requires precision = cost.

I agree with you that motors probably wouldn't shrink, because the
loads dictate the torque and speed requirements. These could be met
with smaller faster motors and more gear reduction -- or similar
motors just wound with finer wire to operate at higher voltage and
lower current to perform the same as before. The faster motor with
more gears gears would weigh less, but cost considerably more.

If you go to AC sure as in 400 cps .

DC motors are really AC motors already. That's what the brushes and
commutator do, or elex in the case of brushless DC motors. DC is
applied, but the armature windings see AC as the motor spins.

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 07:47:16 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Wes
quickly quoth:

Larry Jaques wrote:

24v bites too. I used to be a Phantom Phixer. F4-J / F4-S

So do fans and fan belts (and lathes, mills, saws, & grinders), but
you're careful when working around them, right?

"WTF is the difference?" he queried, innocently.


It is 'only' twenty four volts.

Suit yourself. And judging by your answer, you should see
www.darwinawards.org ...if you're not already listed there.

P.S: For the record, the difference would be a/c vs. d/c and 96/72
volts, ya literalist.

--
Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do.
-- Confucius

Ignoramus17662 wrote:

On 2008-02-03, Vaughn Simon wrote:


So, what voltage do the hybrid vehicles run at? I thought is was over
100, possibly 200 volts.

Yes, but that is "apples and oranges". (correct me if I am wrong) In a
hybrid car, most of the electrics are still 12 volt, the high voltage battery
just runs the hybrid part, and those wires are made very obvious.

So, in an electric car, the starter is 12 volts?

i


Once again, you've earned your name.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Vaughn Simon wrote:

As an electrician, I have been zapped by 120 VAC and even 220 VAC more times
than I would like to admit. Fortunately, I am still alive. Unfortunately, that
does nothing to prove that shocks from 120 VAC and 220 VAC are not sometimes
lethal.

Vaughn


If that had been DC, you may have died. Either from being unable to
let go, or from being pushed away by your muscles, into something else
that could kill you.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 12:21:42 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Ignoramus17662 wrote:

On 2008-02-03, Vaughn Simon wrote:


So, what voltage do the hybrid vehicles run at? I thought is was over
100, possibly 200 volts.

Yes, but that is "apples and oranges". (correct me if I am wrong) In a
hybrid car, most of the electrics are still 12 volt, the high voltage battery
just runs the hybrid part, and those wires are made very obvious.

So, in an electric car, the starter is 12 volts?

i


Once again, you've earned your name.


For symmetry, it ought to be gasoline powered.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On 2008-02-04, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Ignoramus17662 wrote:

On 2008-02-03, Vaughn Simon wrote:


So, what voltage do the hybrid vehicles run at? I thought is was over
100, possibly 200 volts.

Yes, but that is "apples and oranges". (correct me if I am wrong) In a
hybrid car, most of the electrics are still 12 volt, the high voltage battery
just runs the hybrid part, and those wires are made very obvious.

So, in an electric car, the starter is 12 volts?

i


Once again, you've earned your name.



That was a joke question...

i

Stephen Robinson wrote:
Leo Lichtman wrote:
"Stephen Robinson" wrote: You need the VOLTAGE to to push the
CURRENT in order to kill
someone(approx 30 mA).The human body is a very high resistance
object, which needs very high voltage to provide that current. 48v
ain't gonna be enough.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It is refreshing that SOMEONE seems to know this. However, I have a
couple of reservations about your second sentence. The resistance of
the body is almost entirely in the skin, which is quite high when
dry. If, somehow, you got across some voltage while wet, or perhaps
bleeding from an accident, the resistance could be very much lower.
Secondly, the amount of current that can be lethal depends on the path
through the body. The worst would be across the shoulders, which
places the heart in the circuit. The path from one hand to the
other, or from one hand to some lower part of the body could also be
quite dangerous.

Agreed, I still don't think 48 v is going to be very dangerous.

I think the electrocution hazards are minimal,
but the arc-fault hazards are substantial.

On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 13:02:00 -0600, "Robert Swinney"
wrote:

Dammit Don -- just when I thought I understood DC machinery you hadda go and say they are really AC
!!!

Oboy. Got my foot in a bucket again. I suppose a motor that runs on
DC power is properly referred to as a DC motor. A key difference is
that the field in most DC motors is stationary, often supplied by a
permanent magnet. The armature, however (and therefore) must see AC
excitation and exhibit a rotating field. That's why the rotors in DC
motors are made up of laminations rather than just blocks or bars of
iron or steel. In the familiar brush-type motor, the commutator
makes this happen; the excitation polarity on each pair of commutator
bars reverses twice per revolution. Frequency increases with speed
until the back EMF balances applied voltage minus I*R lossses.




Bob Swinney
"Don Foreman" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 06:35:10 -0700, Lew Hartswick
wrote:

Carl Byrns wrote:
You need to catch up- the 48 volt system would drive ALL the accessories
(wipers, blower motor, ect) and not just the hybrid drive. The reasoning is
that higher voltage would mean smaller, lighter motors and lighter gauge
copper wiring.

-Carl

Lighter gage wire yes but less iron NO. For a constant amount
of power (HP) you will need same size iron core FOR DC.

I don't think so, Lew. I think the same copper, current, iron, flux
density etc will deliver 4X the power at 4X the voltage because it
will provide same torque at 4X the speed -- if it can mechanically
handle the speed. Speed requires precision = cost.

I agree with you that motors probably wouldn't shrink, because the
loads dictate the torque and speed requirements. These could be met
with smaller faster motors and more gear reduction -- or similar
motors just wound with finer wire to operate at higher voltage and
lower current to perform the same as before. The faster motor with
more gears gears would weigh less, but cost considerably more.

If you go to AC sure as in 400 cps .

DC motors are really AC motors already. That's what the brushes and
commutator do, or elex in the case of brushless DC motors. DC is
applied, but the armature windings see AC as the motor spins.

On Feb 2, 3:33*pm, "Carl Byrns" wrote:
The high(er) voltage car electrical system is not going to happen anytime
soon. The reasons, according to an article in Car and Driver are a) reliable
circuit protection hasn't been developed to the point where manufacturers
are 100% sure a loose wire or a short won't result in a shock or fire and b)
12 volts is an ideal voltage for headlight filaments- higher voltages
mandate thinner filaments which don't survive bumps and bangs very well.
Apparently GM was going to 48 volts for the 2006 model year, but backed off
mostly because of the circuit protection issue.

-Carl

Doesn't surprise me a bit.

The lawyers finally convinced the managment that the lawsuits wouldn't
have been worth the profits gained.

FYI....

http://ewh.ieee.org/cmte/ias-esw/pdf...lectricity.pdf

Why some of you haven't been fried is beyond me...dumb luck I guess.

TMT

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 00:45:17 GMT, Howard Eisenhauer
wrote:

re. 48 volts being dangerous I've worked around 48V systems for ~30
years. These systems actually tend to run more 52-54 volts due to a
higher voltage being required to keep the batteries float charged.

I've never ever felt even the slightest tingle by touching the + & -
leads at the same time, for most people you have to get up above 60
before they feel anything. I have however felt a mild tingle one
time, I was touching the hot lead while my arm was touching some
grounded metal, I'm guessing the skin on my arm is a bit thinner than
on my hands.

You never got bit by the -48 DC itself, it was always from the
inductive bounce from the line relays, or other Reverse EMF effects.
Or from the 130V 20Hz ring voltage on top of the -48DC.

The offices ran at 52V to 54V nominal float-charge voltages, but the
50V limit in the NEC was and still is the defacto dividing line
between Class II and Class I wiring. We had 130 VDC and 180 VDC
carrier repeater power circuits too, but it was treated the same as
other telephone circuits - though we did put special red ID sleeves
over binding posts to warn people not to mess with them.

The major danger with 48 volts, is, as it is with any system capable
of supplying more than a few dozen amps, is a short across the leads.
I've known people who have dropped wrenches across the buss bars in
telecom sites where the power plant is rated in the thousands of amps
on a continuous basis, generally the wrench flash vapourizes with a
*VERY* inpressive dissplay of light & sound. The person who does it is
invariably *VERY* carefull never to do it again .

Wrench? Feh, nothing! I was at the other end of the building, but
I sure knew something happened - Try an aluminum level, straight
across the Main Bussbars right over the batteries. (Name of the
guilty party omitted to protect the clueless, even though the clock
has long since run out.)

Sylmar CA, Stepper, around 1983-84. Five 24-cell 2400AH strings and
five 400A rectifiers online at the time, IIRC.

Impressive arc light wasn't the half of it - he dropped every call
in the building, and when the short cleared the voltage bounce blew
every 30A voice-battery filter capacitor fuse in the place. And all
the alarm fuses in parallel.

Whole lot of hummy calls till they all got changed, which took
hours. Had to call all the other switchrooms to send over extra 30A
cartridge fuses and bodies to change them - you had to use a 48V work
light as a mini load bank to charge the capacitors, then you could put
the fuse in.

That being said I'd expect in automotive systems an increase in
battery voltage would require less current from the battery.
Automotive companies being what they are (cheap) this most likely will
mean a battery with a corresponding decrease in plate area per cell,
with a higher resultant internal cell resistance, thereby actually
decreasing the battery's maximum current output to levels (1/4?) of an
equivalent 12 volt system (less sizzle).

They can cut the battery CCA requirements down a bit because of the
higher voltage, but they can't really reduce the overall battery
reserve capacity by much. You still have requirements on running tail
lights and/or emergency flashers for a set amount of time, to provide
emergency lighting.

I still think if they jump at all, 24V or 48V would be the more
logical points to pick, because the equipment already exists, motors
and lamps are readily available, etc. 42V is a *******ized level,
unless they're talking a 36V nominal battery and 42V is the float
voltage level.

-- Bruce --

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:41:05 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm,
Bruce L. Bergman quickly quoth:

--big snip of funny/scary story

Sylmar CA, Stepper, around 1983-84. Five 24-cell 2400AH strings and
five 400A rectifiers online at the time, IIRC.

Is that what triggered the Sylmar quake way back when? I don't recall
their covering any light show at the time.


I still think if they jump at all, 24V or 48V would be the more
logical points to pick, because the equipment already exists, motors
and lamps are readily available, etc. 42V is a *******ized level,
unless they're talking a 36V nominal battery and 42V is the float
voltage level.

I'll bet they are.

Say, Sparky, what's a good lubricant for light bulb interfaces? (500w
120v Chiwanese photographic continuous-light stand) I have a dual
porcelain/aluminum connection which is stubborn to screw together and
the salesman says "use any oil or grease sparingly". What's the
typical electrical grease which won't be a fire hazard? TIA

--
Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do.
-- Confucius

Larry Jaques wrote:

It is 'only' twenty four volts.

Suit yourself. And judging by your answer, you should see
www.darwinawards.org ...if you're not already listed there.

P.S: For the record, the difference would be a/c vs. d/c and 96/72
volts, ya literalist.

Yup, I'm a literalist. DC has this nasty habit of making muscles retract or
extend. Sucks if grabbing the live wire is your lottery pick today.

I've long passed my happy go lucky, I'm immortal, taking chances days. I'm
just a pussy cat that thinks I might have used 5 or 6 of those nine lives.

Wes

On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 08:23:43 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Wes
quickly quoth:

Larry Jaques wrote:

It is 'only' twenty four volts.

Suit yourself. And judging by your answer, you should see
www.darwinawards.org ...if you're not already listed there.

P.S: For the record, the difference would be a/c vs. d/c and 96/72
volts, ya literalist.

Yup, I'm a literalist. DC has this nasty habit of making muscles retract or
extend. Sucks if grabbing the live wire is your lottery pick today.

Right, so if in doubt, always test with the back of your hand or tip
of your finger. Piece of cake, duck soup.


I've long passed my happy go lucky, I'm immortal, taking chances days. I'm
just a pussy cat that thinks I might have used 5 or 6 of those nine lives.

I figure I have 3 or 4 lives left _and_ I believe in reincarnation.
I don't drink adrenalin straight from the bottle any more, but I stay
close enough to remain no stranger to it. Life is good.

--
Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do.
-- Confucius

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:41:05 -0800, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

..

I still think if they jump at all, 24V or 48V would be the more
logical points to pick, because the equipment already exists, motors
and lamps are readily available, etc. 42V is a *******ized level,
unless they're talking a 36V nominal battery and 42V is the float
voltage level.

-- Bruce --

Which they are.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 04:52:29 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:41:05 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm,
Bruce L. Bergman quickly quoth:

--big snip of funny/scary story

Sylmar CA, Stepper, around 1983-84. Five 24-cell 2400AH strings and
five 400A rectifiers online at the time, IIRC.

Is that what triggered the Sylmar quake way back when? I don't recall
their covering any light show at the time.

No, that was January 1971, long before I hired in - After which,
that same switchroom looked like a big game of 'knock over the
Dominoes', West to East.

The building was fine, it was typical block wall warehouse style
construction, but the equipment... The aisles on the east wall were
mostly vertical - the MDF and the Power Room. The bays at the west
end were at about a 45-degree angle and the switches were all sorts of
messed up.

They had to rip it all out and try to salvage what they could, then
they invented the first Earthquake Bracing - they put a huge "Spine"
down the middle of the building north-south with 12-inch square tubing
verticals and a huge span of 12" I girder at rack height as a beam.
Then they welded all the top iron cross-bars to the spine.

And rather than build separate racks for all the comm cabling, they
just rolled out welded concrete wire - "Git 'r Done!" First "cable
grid". Only racks they put up were for power cable.

Say, Sparky, what's a good lubricant for light bulb interfaces? (500w
120v Chiwanese photographic continuous-light stand) I have a dual
porcelain/aluminum connection which is stubborn to screw together and
the salesman says "use any oil or grease sparingly". What's the
typical electrical grease which won't be a fire hazard? TIA

I would use a very light schmear of Dielectric Grease - the lifetime
supply half-pint can I have in the garage is from Trail-Rite and made
for truck taillight lamps and cord connections, but 'lamps is lamps'.

Or go to the hardware store and get some Ideal Noalox, which has
dielectric grease plus the flourides added to clean up the aluminum
oxides and keep them from re-forming. For stubborn cases, use a
stainless steel "toothbrush".

Again, where it will get really hot from a photo flood lamp you want
to be really sparing with it, and keep it off the glass lamp envelope.
Besides the stink factor, you might have differential expansion and
the lamp outer envelope cracks, which is not good.

-- Bruce --

On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 21:32:07 -0600, Ignoramus17662 wrote:
On 2008-02-03, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 20:34:00 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus17662 quickly quoth:
On 2008-02-03, Vaughn Simon wrote:

So, what voltage do the hybrid vehicles run at? I thought is was over
100, possibly 200 volts.

Yes, but that is "apples and oranges". (correct me if I am wrong) In a
hybrid car, most of the electrics are still 12 volt, the high voltage battery
just runs the hybrid part, and those wires are made very obvious.

So, in an electric car, the starter is 12 volts?

I wonder how many cheeks you'll catch with that big hook, Ig.

None so far, but I am waiting...


It's not necessarily that funny - I recently did a motor mount
design for a crackpot with money. He's decided to make an electric
car, and the thing that tipped me off that he's a crackpot is that
he's got two car alternators in the thing, one to run the lights and
radio and stuff, and the other to go through a DC/DC converter and
charge the battery while it's running. ?:-/

But when a goof-ball pays in advance, one doesn't ask too many
embarrassing questions. ;-) (my job was to design/detail the motor
mount, not criticize his grand scheme. ;-) )

Cheers!
Rich

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 12:08:07 -0600, Ignoramus31218 wrote:
On 2008-02-04, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Ignoramus17662 wrote:
On 2008-02-03, Vaughn Simon wrote:

So, what voltage do the hybrid vehicles run at? I thought is was over
100, possibly 200 volts.

Yes, but that is "apples and oranges". (correct me if I am wrong) In a
hybrid car, most of the electrics are still 12 volt, the high voltage battery
just runs the hybrid part, and those wires are made very obvious.

So, in an electric car, the starter is 12 volts?

Once again, you've earned your name.

That was a joke question...

It seems everybody got it but Michael. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

On 2008-02-06, Rich Grise wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 21:32:07 -0600, Ignoramus17662 wrote:
On 2008-02-03, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 20:34:00 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus17662 quickly quoth:
On 2008-02-03, Vaughn Simon wrote:

So, what voltage do the hybrid vehicles run at? I thought is was over
100, possibly 200 volts.

Yes, but that is "apples and oranges". (correct me if I am wrong) In a
hybrid car, most of the electrics are still 12 volt, the high voltage battery
just runs the hybrid part, and those wires are made very obvious.

So, in an electric car, the starter is 12 volts?

I wonder how many cheeks you'll catch with that big hook, Ig.

None so far, but I am waiting...


It's not necessarily that funny - I recently did a motor mount
design for a crackpot with money. He's decided to make an electric
car, and the thing that tipped me off that he's a crackpot is that
he's got two car alternators in the thing, one to run the lights and
radio and stuff, and the other to go through a DC/DC converter and
charge the battery while it's running. ?:-/

Please tell me that YOU are kidding!!!

But when a goof-ball pays in advance, one doesn't ask too many
embarrassing questions. ;-) (my job was to design/detail the motor
mount, not criticize his grand scheme. ;-) )

That was a supercool assignment.

i

On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 12:07:57 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 14:53:56 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Wes
"Carl Byrns" wrote:

I'll let you test that theory g. In the mean time, you might want to read
sk's post on aircraft (24v) circuits.

24v bites too. I used to be a Phantom Phixer. F4-J / F4-S

So do fans and fan belts (and lathes, mills, saws, & grinders), but
you're careful when working around them, right?

"WTF is the difference?" he queried, innocently.

An energized electrical terminal looks EXACTLY THE SAME as a de-energized
terminal.

Cheers!
Rich

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 12:11:47 -0600, Ignoramus28484 wrote:

On 2008-02-06, Rich Grise wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 21:32:07 -0600, Ignoramus17662 wrote:
On 2008-02-03, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 20:34:00 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus17662 quickly quoth:
On 2008-02-03, Vaughn Simon wrote:

So, what voltage do the hybrid vehicles run at? I thought is was over
100, possibly 200 volts.

Yes, but that is "apples and oranges". (correct me if I am wrong) In a
hybrid car, most of the electrics are still 12 volt, the high voltage battery
just runs the hybrid part, and those wires are made very obvious.

So, in an electric car, the starter is 12 volts?

I wonder how many cheeks you'll catch with that big hook, Ig.

None so far, but I am waiting...


It's not necessarily that funny - I recently did a motor mount
design for a crackpot with money. He's decided to make an electric
car, and the thing that tipped me off that he's a crackpot is that
he's got two car alternators in the thing, one to run the lights and
radio and stuff, and the other to go through a DC/DC converter and
charge the battery while it's running. ?:-/

Please tell me that YOU are kidding!!!

No, he was serious. His plan was to drive from LA, CA to someplace in
Oregon on one charge.

It was all I could do to keep myself from laughing out loud - thinking
of all that lovely money helped a lot. ;-)

But when a goof-ball pays in advance, one doesn't ask too many
embarrassing questions. ;-) (my job was to design/detail the motor
mount, not criticize his grand scheme. ;-) )

That was a supercool assignment.

Yeah, it was. I'm hoping for another. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 20:37:31 GMT, Rich Grise wrote:

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 12:11:47 -0600, Ignoramus28484 wrote:

On 2008-02-06, Rich Grise wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 21:32:07 -0600, Ignoramus17662 wrote:
On 2008-02-03, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 20:34:00 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus17662 quickly quoth:
On 2008-02-03, Vaughn Simon wrote:

So, what voltage do the hybrid vehicles run at? I thought is was over
100, possibly 200 volts.

Yes, but that is "apples and oranges". (correct me if I am wrong) In a
hybrid car, most of the electrics are still 12 volt, the high voltage battery
just runs the hybrid part, and those wires are made very obvious.

So, in an electric car, the starter is 12 volts?

I wonder how many cheeks you'll catch with that big hook, Ig.

None so far, but I am waiting...


It's not necessarily that funny - I recently did a motor mount
design for a crackpot with money. He's decided to make an electric
car, and the thing that tipped me off that he's a crackpot is that
he's got two car alternators in the thing, one to run the lights and
radio and stuff, and the other to go through a DC/DC converter and
charge the battery while it's running. ?:-/

Please tell me that YOU are kidding!!!

No, he was serious. His plan was to drive from LA, CA to someplace in
Oregon on one charge.

It was all I could do to keep myself from laughing out loud - thinking
of all that lovely money helped a lot. ;-)

That's like the doctor (as in medical) in a nearby town who had one
of the EV1's. He kept working on a trailer to tow behind it to charge
it for longer runs. He kept coming to my former employer and finally
me after they closed for machine work on V belt pulleys. He was
convinced that if he found the right pulley he could make a air motor
run a alternator which would run a air compressor and charge the
battery.

But when a goof-ball pays in advance, one doesn't ask too many
embarrassing questions. ;-) (my job was to design/detail the motor
mount, not criticize his grand scheme. ;-) )

That was a supercool assignment.

Yeah, it was. I'm hoping for another. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

On Feb 6, 12:14*pm, Rich Grise wrote:
On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 12:07:57 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 14:53:56 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Wes
"Carl Byrns" wrote:

I'll let you test that theory g. In the mean time, you might want to read
sk's post on aircraft (24v) circuits.

24v bites too. *I used to be a Phantom Phixer. *F4-J / F4-S

So do fans and fan belts (and lathes, mills, saws, & grinders), but
you're careful when working around them, right? *

"WTF is the difference?" he queried, innocently.

An energized electrical terminal looks EXACTLY THE SAME as a de-energized
terminal.

Cheers!
Rich

Yeah...to those of us who are sane.

Ever notice how many supposely normal people will grab that terminal
and be the test subject?

TMT

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 20:37:31 GMT, Rich Grise wrote:

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 12:11:47 -0600, Ignoramus28484 wrote:

On 2008-02-06, Rich Grise wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 21:32:07 -0600, Ignoramus17662 wrote:
On 2008-02-03, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 20:34:00 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus17662 quickly quoth:
On 2008-02-03, Vaughn Simon wrote:

So, what voltage do the hybrid vehicles run at? I thought is was over
100, possibly 200 volts.

Yes, but that is "apples and oranges". (correct me if I am wrong) In a
hybrid car, most of the electrics are still 12 volt, the high voltage battery
just runs the hybrid part, and those wires are made very obvious.

So, in an electric car, the starter is 12 volts?

I wonder how many cheeks you'll catch with that big hook, Ig.

None so far, but I am waiting...


It's not necessarily that funny - I recently did a motor mount
design for a crackpot with money. He's decided to make an electric
car, and the thing that tipped me off that he's a crackpot is that
he's got two car alternators in the thing, one to run the lights and
radio and stuff, and the other to go through a DC/DC converter and
charge the battery while it's running. ?:-/

Please tell me that YOU are kidding!!!

No, he was serious. His plan was to drive from LA, CA to someplace in
Oregon on one charge.

It was all I could do to keep myself from laughing out loud - thinking
of all that lovely money helped a lot. ;-)

But when a goof-ball pays in advance, one doesn't ask too many
embarrassing questions. ;-) (my job was to design/detail the motor
mount, not criticize his grand scheme. ;-) )

That was a supercool assignment.

Yeah, it was. I'm hoping for another. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

It was just a poorly designed Hybrid - - - - - - .


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 08:33:53 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm,
Bruce L. Bergman quickly quoth:

On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 04:52:29 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 23:41:05 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm,
Bruce L. Bergman quickly quoth:

--big snip of funny/scary story

Sylmar CA, Stepper, around 1983-84. Five 24-cell 2400AH strings and
five 400A rectifiers online at the time, IIRC.

Is that what triggered the Sylmar quake way back when? I don't recall
their covering any light show at the time.

No, that was January 1971, long before I hired in - After which,
that same switchroom looked like a big game of 'knock over the
Dominoes', West to East.

The building was fine, it was typical block wall warehouse style
construction, but the equipment... The aisles on the east wall were
mostly vertical - the MDF and the Power Room. The bays at the west
end were at about a 45-degree angle and the switches were all sorts of
messed up.

They had to rip it all out and try to salvage what they could, then
they invented the first Earthquake Bracing - they put a huge "Spine"
down the middle of the building north-south with 12-inch square tubing
verticals and a huge span of 12" I girder at rack height as a beam.
Then they welded all the top iron cross-bars to the spine.

And rather than build separate racks for all the comm cabling, they
just rolled out welded concrete wire - "Git 'r Done!" First "cable
grid". Only racks they put up were for power cable.

Interesting history lesson. Thanks.


Say, Sparky, what's a good lubricant for light bulb interfaces? (500w
120v Chiwanese photographic continuous-light stand) I have a dual
porcelain/aluminum connection which is stubborn to screw together and
the salesman says "use any oil or grease sparingly". What's the
typical electrical grease which won't be a fire hazard? TIA

I would use a very light schmear of Dielectric Grease - the lifetime
supply half-pint can I have in the garage is from Trail-Rite and made
for truck taillight lamps and cord connections, but 'lamps is lamps'.

Now that you mention it, I believe I still have a small tube of
dielectric grease from my automotive days. It was used between the
mica insulators and the control modules in the early electronic
ignition setups. If not, I may have some of the silicone grease used
on spark plug wires.


Or go to the hardware store and get some Ideal Noalox, which has
dielectric grease plus the flourides added to clean up the aluminum
oxides and keep them from re-forming. For stubborn cases, use a
stainless steel "toothbrush".

Again, where it will get really hot from a photo flood lamp you want
to be really sparing with it, and keep it off the glass lamp envelope.
Besides the stink factor, you might have differential expansion and
the lamp outer envelope cracks, which is not good.

Yes,I'm careful about keeping all bulbs, including cold ones, free
from grease. Halogens explode nicely from a single fingerprint.

Thanks for the tips, Bruce.

--
Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do.
-- Confucius

"Vaughn Simon" wrote:


"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
news:5l5pj.41034$K%.16220@trnddc04...
The high(er) voltage car electrical system is not going to happen anytime
soon. The reasons, according to an article in Car and Driver are a) reliable
circuit protection hasn't been developed to the point where manufacturers are
100% sure a loose wire or a short won't result in a shock or fire and

That suits me. Under the right conditions, 48 volts is plenty enough to
kill. Therefore, one inevitable result of 48 volt electrical systems in cars
will be the occasional dead mechanic. Would the advantages of higher voltage
systems be worth that result?

Vaughn

An under the right conditions so can 5V. IT is not an "inevitable"
result, just a possible one. Just as working around equipment that can
generate highly explosive gasoline vapors, does not mean inevitable
explosions.

jk

"Ivan Vegvary" wrote:

BTW, I just now
realized why they must have designed those cords to plug into the set
instead of hard-wiring them with strain reliefs etc.

Ivan Vegvary

I doubt it.
I think the reason is multiple markets with different outlets
jk

Ignoramus17662 wrote:


Not the case if a wet human body is holding on to car frame, while
grabbing firmly some unlucky item energized to 48 volts. Resistance
depends mostly on how contact is done.

And that would largely be a non issue if the frame wasn't used as a
conductor.

Ohh but that would cost money
jk

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 21:32:57 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm, jk
quickly quoth:

"Vaughn Simon" wrote:


"Carl Byrns" wrote in message
news:5l5pj.41034$K%.16220@trnddc04...
The high(er) voltage car electrical system is not going to happen anytime
soon. The reasons, according to an article in Car and Driver are a) reliable
circuit protection hasn't been developed to the point where manufacturers are
100% sure a loose wire or a short won't result in a shock or fire and

That suits me. Under the right conditions, 48 volts is plenty enough to
kill. Therefore, one inevitable result of 48 volt electrical systems in cars
will be the occasional dead mechanic. Would the advantages of higher voltage
systems be worth that result?

Vaughn

An under the right conditions so can 5V. IT is not an "inevitable"
result, just a possible one. Just as working around equipment that can
generate highly explosive gasoline vapors, does not mean inevitable
explosions.

Doctors kill 900,000+ people a year in the USA. Simply driving cars
kills 43k in the US, 1 million worldwide. Eating fast food/heart
disease kills 600k. Ask Vaughn "Which is the greater threat, us or the
voltage in vehicles?" To the rest of us, it' s a moot point.

Cites: www.cdc.gov , www.mercola.com ,
http://www.thecommunityguide.org/mvo...-2-173-174.pdf

--
Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do.
-- Confucius

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 21:42:13 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm, jk
quickly quoth:

Ignoramus17662 wrote:


Not the case if a wet human body is holding on to car frame, while
grabbing firmly some unlucky item energized to 48 volts. Resistance
depends mostly on how contact is done.

And that would largely be a non issue if the frame wasn't used as a
conductor.

Ohh but that would cost money

So buy yourself a rubber apron, use a fender cover, etc. You safety
nazis are always trying to protect the stupid, who will find their own
ways around your protection one way or another.

The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly
is to fill the world with fools.
--Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

--
"I'm sick and tired of having to rearrange my life
because of what the STUPIDEST people *might* do or
how they *might* react."
-- Bill Maher

"jk" wrote in message
...

I doubt it.
I think the reason is multiple markets with different outlets

Perhaps part of the reason, but the main reason was to act as an interlock to
keep customer's fingers out of the high voltage. (Liability lawsuits are not a
new idea) The cords were usually riveted to the back cover so that you had to
unplug the cord from the back of the set before you could gain entrance to the
circuitry. That is why a loose cord (not riveted to a back cover) was called a
"cheater" cord; because using one made make it possible to operate the set
without the back cover in place.

Vaughn

On 2008-02-07, jk wrote:
"Ivan Vegvary" wrote:

BTW, I just now
realized why they must have designed those cords to plug into the set
instead of hard-wiring them with strain reliefs etc.

Ivan Vegvary

I doubt it.
I think the reason is multiple markets with different outlets

He was talking about using a "cheater cord" which is what you
use when servicing a TV set with the back off and the chassis out so you
can take measurements while it is powered. The standard power cord is
riveted to the back cover so when you remove the back cover, the power
goes away (unless you have a cheater cord). :-) This was at least true
of TV sets made in the 1950, 1960s, and perhaps 1970s, if not true of
modern sets. (I haven't been inside one for decades, so I don't know
what today's sets are like.)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"jk" wrote in message
...
An under the right conditions so can 5V.

Please show me a documented example.

IT is not an "inevitable"

Yes it is. Thousands of sweaty mechanics working on thousands of cars. If
it CAN happen, it WILL.

Vaughn