On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 00:53:03 -0600, Ignoramus1782
wrote:

I just finished a mini project. I fixed a "broken" Miller XMT 300
CC/CV welding machine, which had the switch for the display
broken. That switch was switching the display between showing voltage
or current on a mini LED screen.

The broken switch had to be desoldered and a new one had to be
soldered in.

The issue that I ran into was desoldering. I have a "Pace SMD 2000
desoldering station" from my younger military surplus days. This
station has a tool that is like a soldering iron, but has a axial hole
in the tip and an adapter for a vacuum, and the built in vacuum. When
I push on a pedal, the vacuum starts sucking through the tip. So I
would melt the solder with the hot tip, push the pedal and...

My problem was that it barely sucked. Not enough to vacuum in the solder
from the circuit board.

As a stopgap measure, I used my 1/3 HP vacuum pump by connecting it to
the desoldering tool and turning on at the proper moment.

In the end, it all worked, the old switch was removed, a new one
installed, and the welder has a working selector of V vs. A display.

All this leads me to the conclusion that something is wrong with the
vacuum pump on this station. Would you say that it should provide very
strong suction?

Any experience here?


The name (SMD2000) suggests that it is intended mostly for use with
surfacemount devices. Very little solder is used per connection with
these tiny devices and soldering irons (as by Pace) are quite small.
A better choice for larger connections, like switches in a welder,
would be a heavier iron (Weller?) and a manual soldersucker as
"Soldapullt".
http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bi...uct/2920-0019/

Avoid the cheapos from Radio Shack, the Edsyn Soldapullt is far
superior. It's simply a trigger-released spring-loaded plunger. The
tip is teflon, self-clears when the tool is cocked. They can suck a
rather surprising amount of solder per shot. They're way too big and
clunky for surfacemount work, but they are great for thru-hole and for
soldered terminals.

Mine is at least 20 years old, still works perfectly.

On 2008-01-30, Don Foreman wrote:
The name (SMD2000) suggests that it is intended mostly for use with
surfacemount devices. Very little solder is used per connection with
these tiny devices and soldering irons (as by Pace) are quite small.
A better choice for larger connections, like switches in a welder,
would be a heavier iron (Weller?) and a manual soldersucker as
"Soldapullt".
http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bi...uct/2920-0019/

Don, which one would you recommend, I will buy whatever you think is
the right one.

To use them, you need to have a soldering gun in one hand and pump in
the other hand, right?

Avoid the cheapos from Radio Shack, the Edsyn Soldapullt is far
superior. It's simply a trigger-released spring-loaded plunger. The
tip is teflon, self-clears when the tool is cocked. They can suck a
rather surprising amount of solder per shot. They're way too big and
clunky for surfacemount work, but they are great for thru-hole and for
soldered terminals.

Yes, I obviously have no knowledge or skill to work with modern,
miniature circuit boards. But the stuff like that Miller display, I
could fix.

Miller, also, has done a great job at making repairable circuit
boards.

i

On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:12:18 -0600, Ignoramus19508
wrote:

On 2008-01-30, Don Foreman wrote:
The name (SMD2000) suggests that it is intended mostly for use with
surfacemount devices. Very little solder is used per connection with
these tiny devices and soldering irons (as by Pace) are quite small.
A better choice for larger connections, like switches in a welder,
would be a heavier iron (Weller?) and a manual soldersucker as
"Soldapullt".
http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bi...uct/2920-0019/

Don, which one would you recommend, I will buy whatever you think is
the right one.

The one I have is the DS017, their original model. If you work much
with very static-sensitive circuitry than the DS017LS might be a good
choice.

To use them, you need to have a soldering gun in one hand and pump in
the other hand, right?

Yes. Get the joint thoroughly molten, adding solder if necessary,
then apply tip of soldersucker and push the button. Thuup! If it's
a part on a printed wiring board, it often works best to suck out the
holes from the non-component side because the sucker tip has a clear
shot at the hole.

It doesn't always suck the joint clear dry, but usually dry enough
that wires and leads can then be jiggled or popped loose. Sometimes
parts just fall out, but not always.

I have developed the habit of flipping my wrist and whacking the
plunger on the bench to recock after each use. Then it's ready to go
when the next joint is melted.

Iggy,
years ago, I got a broken Pace de-soldering handpiece. I repaired the
broken top ( a couple of small L brackets). So there I was a de-soldering
gun with no vacuum source. The thrift shops came to my rescue. I found a
daisy seal a meal. A little bit of fish tank air tubing, a foot switch and a
standard light dimmer, all fashioned together in a box (
http://members.cox.net/rbelisle1/TOWER%20OF%20POWER.jpg ) and I have a temp
adjustable de-soldering system that works great. I did have to buy tips
about 2 years ago, but I bought ten on ebay and that should last forever. I
little hint, if you take out the tip and reverse it, the other end has a
bigger end!!!!

I added a couple of other things to the box, but what your looking at is the
top part, handset, timer (cause I am old and forget things) and light
dimmer. The rest of the stuff is for the variacts at the bottom.



bob in phx
"Ignoramus19508" wrote in message
...
On 2008-01-30, Don Foreman wrote:
The name (SMD2000) suggests that it is intended mostly for use with
surfacemount devices. Very little solder is used per connection with
these tiny devices and soldering irons (as by Pace) are quite small.
A better choice for larger connections, like switches in a welder,
would be a heavier iron (Weller?) and a manual soldersucker as
"Soldapullt".
http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bi...uct/2920-0019/

Don, which one would you recommend, I will buy whatever you think is
the right one.

To use them, you need to have a soldering gun in one hand and pump in
the other hand, right?

Avoid the cheapos from Radio Shack, the Edsyn Soldapullt is far
superior. It's simply a trigger-released spring-loaded plunger. The
tip is teflon, self-clears when the tool is cocked. They can suck a
rather surprising amount of solder per shot. They're way too big and
clunky for surfacemount work, but they are great for thru-hole and for
soldered terminals.

Yes, I obviously have no knowledge or skill to work with modern,
miniature circuit boards. But the stuff like that Miller display, I
could fix.

Miller, also, has done a great job at making repairable circuit
boards.

i

On 2008-01-30, Don Foreman wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:12:18 -0600, Ignoramus19508
wrote:
3
On 2008-01-30, Don Foreman wrote:
The name (SMD2000) suggests that it is intended mostly for use with
surfacemount devices. Very little solder is used per connection with
these tiny devices and soldering irons (as by Pace) are quite small.
A better choice for larger connections, like switches in a welder,
would be a heavier iron (Weller?) and a manual soldersucker as
"Soldapullt".
http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bi...uct/2920-0019/

Don, which one would you recommend, I will buy whatever you think is
the right one.

The one I have is the DS017, their original model. If you work much
with very static-sensitive circuitry than the DS017LS might be a good
choice.

Thanks. I bought AS196LS and some tips thereof.

Might sell the rework station if this one works OK.

Also got some conformal coating.

i

Ignoramus19508 wrote:
On 2008-01-30, Don Foreman wrote:

The name (SMD2000) suggests that it is intended mostly for use with
surfacemount devices. Very little solder is used per connection with
these tiny devices and soldering irons (as by Pace) are quite small.
A better choice for larger connections, like switches in a welder,
would be a heavier iron (Weller?) and a manual soldersucker as
"Soldapullt".
http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bi...uct/2920-0019/


No, these things (at least with the right handpiece, like the
SX70) can remove an INCREDIBLE amount of solder in one slurp.
Remember, companies won't pay $2500 for something like this if
it didn't actually work. One nice thing about this sort of unit
is it has a temperature-controlled heater with temperature
readout of the tip, and the heating tip is also the sucker, so
you don't have to switch quickly from soldering iron to sucker
before the joint cools. Another nice thing about the high-end
Pace and Weller gear is that individual replacement parts are
available, so you can replace any single piece that wears out or
breaks.

Iggy wasn't replacing a high-power switch, but an electronic
switch on the control circuit board.

Those Soldapullt things are a JOKE compared to a Pace dsoldering
system.

I routinely salvage some expensive 68 pin through-hole
connectors on 6-layer boards. I can just barely tell which pins
are connected to the ground plane and which aren't when using
the Pace.
With a soldering iron and a soldapullt I would never be able to
desolder one of those ground pins, the solder would freeze
before I could get the soldapullt on it.

Jon

On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:56:01 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Ignoramus19508 wrote:
On 2008-01-30, Don Foreman wrote:

The name (SMD2000) suggests that it is intended mostly for use with
surfacemount devices. Very little solder is used per connection with
these tiny devices and soldering irons (as by Pace) are quite small.
A better choice for larger connections, like switches in a welder,
would be a heavier iron (Weller?) and a manual soldersucker as
"Soldapullt".
http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bi...uct/2920-0019/


No, these things (at least with the right handpiece, like the
SX70) can remove an INCREDIBLE amount of solder in one slurp.
Remember, companies won't pay $2500 for something like this if
it didn't actually work. One nice thing about this sort of unit
is it has a temperature-controlled heater with temperature
readout of the tip, and the heating tip is also the sucker, so
you don't have to switch quickly from soldering iron to sucker
before the joint cools. Another nice thing about the high-end
Pace and Weller gear is that individual replacement parts are
available, so you can replace any single piece that wears out or
breaks.

Iggy wasn't replacing a high-power switch, but an electronic
switch on the control circuit board.

It was a larger-than-microscopic thru-hole component on a fairly
low-tech board, was it not? I've not seen anything in a Miller welder
that looks much like the innards of a cellphone...

Those Soldapullt things are a JOKE compared to a Pace dsoldering
system.

I routinely salvage some expensive 68 pin through-hole
connectors on 6-layer boards. I can just barely tell which pins
are connected to the ground plane and which aren't when using
the Pace.
With a soldering iron and a soldapullt I would never be able to
desolder one of those ground pins, the solder would freeze
before I could get the soldapullt on it.

Jon

I certainly won't refute your good experience with the $2500 tool ...
but if you didn't have the $2500 tool available to you then you might
benefit from a Soldapullt lesson by a technician who is proficient
with one.

I also doubt that repair of circuit boards in Miller Welders is
strongly comparable to the rather more sophisticated and challenging
work you do with 68-pin connectors on 6-layer boards.

On 2008-01-31, Jon Elson wrote:
Ignoramus19508 wrote:
On 2008-01-30, Don Foreman wrote:

The name (SMD2000) suggests that it is intended mostly for use with
surfacemount devices. Very little solder is used per connection with
these tiny devices and soldering irons (as by Pace) are quite small.
A better choice for larger connections, like switches in a welder,
would be a heavier iron (Weller?) and a manual soldersucker as
"Soldapullt".
http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bi...uct/2920-0019/


No, these things (at least with the right handpiece, like the
SX70) can remove an INCREDIBLE amount of solder in one slurp.
Remember, companies won't pay $2500 for something like this if
it didn't actually work. One nice thing about this sort of unit
is it has a temperature-controlled heater with temperature
readout of the tip, and the heating tip is also the sucker, so
you don't have to switch quickly from soldering iron to sucker
before the joint cools. Another nice thing about the high-end
Pace and Weller gear is that individual replacement parts are
available, so you can replace any single piece that wears out or
breaks.

After adjusting vacuum adjustment to highest vacuum, I tried the PACE
station today on some junk boards, it sucks solder very well now.

I do indeed like its temp control and other features. I have it set at
950 degrees.

I will now look for accessories for it.

i

On 2008-01-31, Don Foreman wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:56:01 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Ignoramus19508 wrote:
On 2008-01-30, Don Foreman wrote:

The name (SMD2000) suggests that it is intended mostly for use with
surfacemount devices. Very little solder is used per connection with
these tiny devices and soldering irons (as by Pace) are quite small.
A better choice for larger connections, like switches in a welder,
would be a heavier iron (Weller?) and a manual soldersucker as
"Soldapullt".
http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bi...uct/2920-0019/


No, these things (at least with the right handpiece, like the
SX70) can remove an INCREDIBLE amount of solder in one slurp.
Remember, companies won't pay $2500 for something like this if
it didn't actually work. One nice thing about this sort of unit
is it has a temperature-controlled heater with temperature
readout of the tip, and the heating tip is also the sucker, so
you don't have to switch quickly from soldering iron to sucker
before the joint cools. Another nice thing about the high-end
Pace and Weller gear is that individual replacement parts are
available, so you can replace any single piece that wears out or
breaks.

Iggy wasn't replacing a high-power switch, but an electronic
switch on the control circuit board.

It was a larger-than-microscopic thru-hole component on a fairly
low-tech board, was it not? I've not seen anything in a Miller welder
that looks much like the innards of a cellphone...

The leads of the switch were rather fat.

Those Soldapullt things are a JOKE compared to a Pace dsoldering
system.

I routinely salvage some expensive 68 pin through-hole
connectors on 6-layer boards. I can just barely tell which pins
are connected to the ground plane and which aren't when using
the Pace.
With a soldering iron and a soldapullt I would never be able to
desolder one of those ground pins, the solder would freeze
before I could get the soldapullt on it.

Jon

I certainly won't refute your good experience with the $2500 tool ...
but if you didn't have the $2500 tool available to you then you might
benefit from a Soldapullt lesson by a technician who is proficient
with one.

No argument here.

I also doubt that repair of circuit boards in Miller Welders is
strongly comparable to the rather more sophisticated and challenging
work you do with 68-pin connectors on 6-layer boards.

In fact, this is what I like about these boards, they are 1) very low
tech and 2) easy to repair due to good part placement 3) easy to
identify components, which look mostly off the shelf.

My repair was, obviously, the most trivial kind, but I appreciated
repairability of these boards.

i

Don Foreman wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:56:01 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:

Those Soldapullt things are a JOKE compared to a Pace dsoldering
system.

I routinely salvage some expensive 68 pin through-hole
connectors on 6-layer boards. I can just barely tell which pins
are connected to the ground plane and which aren't when using
the Pace.
With a soldering iron and a soldapullt I would never be able to
desolder one of those ground pins, the solder would freeze
before I could get the soldapullt on it.

Jon


I certainly won't refute your good experience with the $2500 tool ...
but if you didn't have the $2500 tool available to you then you might
benefit from a Soldapullt lesson by a technician who is proficient
with one.

Well, I have several of them, too, and even use them if I am desoldering
just a couple joints. The Pace takes a long time to heat up. But, if I
have a whole bunch of contacts to desolder, or the configuration looks
like it is going to be one of those difficult jobs, there is nothing
like a Pace. Iggy already has a very expensive Pace system on his
bench, it was just misbehaving.

I also doubt that repair of circuit boards in Miller Welders is
strongly comparable to the rather more sophisticated and challenging
work you do with 68-pin connectors on 6-layer boards.

I'm sure there is some heavy power stuff in there, but likely not much that
needs a desoldering tool. (You'd need the XXXXL version of the
Soldapullt to unsoder the main transformer wire, I think. It would be
the size of a truck shock absorber!)

All the higher-end welders today have a bunch of chips and circuit
boards in them for the control and timing functions. That is pretty
much as Iggy described what he was doing.

Jon

Ignoramus19508 wrote:
On 2008-01-31, Don Foreman wrote:


In fact, this is what I like about these boards, they are 1) very low
tech and 2) easy to repair due to good part placement 3) easy to
identify components, which look mostly off the shelf.

My repair was, obviously, the most trivial kind, but I appreciated
repairability of these boards.
I had to dig into my 800+ Pound Lincoln square-wave TIG 300 machine, and
old-school
transformer AC/DC constant-current power source with SCR phase control.
Well, the power components are mostly brazed, welded, etc. and then
everything bolts together. But, there are several fairly large circuit
boards in it. There is a main control board that pretty much covers the
entire back of the control panel, and then a power supply board, a phase
controller board and a safety board, as I recall. Yes, everything is
off the shelf, resistors, caps, ICs, pots and switches, etc. The shield
gas post flow timer was bad, and I had to trace the wiring and replace
it. As the damn boards are all conformal coated, I DID use my Pace tool
to desolder it, it does a much better job when the going gets rough.

Jon

On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:23:07 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

I certainly won't refute your good experience with the $2500 tool ...
but if you didn't have the $2500 tool available to you then you might
benefit from a Soldapullt lesson by a technician who is proficient
with one.

I also doubt that repair of circuit boards in Miller Welders is
strongly comparable to the rather more sophisticated and challenging
work you do with 68-pin connectors on 6-layer boards.

I've used both (Pace and Soldapullt) and a Soldapullt would
beat the Pace on oinky work. I learned desoldering with a
Soldapullt so maybe that is why I could make it work well. I
had a Pace desolder-station, two Weller pencils and two 250
watt plus guns at my bench. The Pace required continuous
maintenance (as others have said) and it worked well, but a
Soldapullt could beat it albeit at a slower rate. I worked
on surface mount itsy-bitsy stuff all the way up to... We
also had a Hotair station for surface mount chips but that
is a whole'nuther discussion...

For Jon, if you are pulling the pencil away from the joint
and then moving the Soldapullt in, you are doing it wrong.
You leave the pencil on the joint, rest the Soldapullt tip
so it touches the board but not the pencil tip and then fire
it. Be careful about this, it you contact the pencil tip too
much with the Soldapullt you can damage the circuit board
trace when it fires.

The mini/small Soldapullt's are crap, (like the model US140
Edsyn Universal Soldapullt) not enough suction. Get the big
one like Don linked to. I still have two Soldapullt's, the
old Blue and yellow (DS017) and the silver anti-static
version (AS196). They are both over 15 years old and still
work fine.

Desolder stations on nice to have, but a bit pricey for only
occasional use.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Leon Fisk wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:23:07 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


I certainly won't refute your good experience with the $2500 tool ...
but if you didn't have the $2500 tool available to you then you might
benefit from a Soldapullt lesson by a technician who is proficient
with one.

I also doubt that repair of circuit boards in Miller Welders is
strongly comparable to the rather more sophisticated and challenging
work you do with 68-pin connectors on 6-layer boards.


I've used both (Pace and Soldapullt) and a Soldapullt would
beat the Pace on oinky work. I learned desoldering with a
Soldapullt so maybe that is why I could make it work well. I
had a Pace desolder-station, two Weller pencils and two 250
watt plus guns at my bench. The Pace required continuous
maintenance (as others have said) and it worked well, but a
Soldapullt could beat it albeit at a slower rate. I worked
on surface mount itsy-bitsy stuff all the way up to... We
also had a Hotair station for surface mount chips but that
is a whole'nuther discussion...

For Jon, if you are pulling the pencil away from the joint
and then moving the Soldapullt in, you are doing it wrong.
You leave the pencil on the joint, rest the Soldapullt tip
so it touches the board but not the pencil tip and then fire
it. Be careful about this, it you contact the pencil tip too
much with the Soldapullt you can damage the circuit board
trace when it fires.

Believe me, I know how to use it. I've been using them since, oh,
1972 or so.

The mini/small Soldapullt's are crap, (like the model US140
Edsyn Universal Soldapullt) not enough suction. Get the big
one like Don linked to. I still have two Soldapullt's, the
old Blue and yellow (DS017) and the silver anti-static
version (AS196). They are both over 15 years old and still
work fine.

Desolder stations on nice to have, but a bit pricey for only
occasional use.

Oh, I definitely was not suggesting that everyone go out and buy a Pace
station. But, Iggy already HAD the station, it just wasn't working
right. And, yes, they do take some maintenance, but when doing a bunch
of connections, there's nothing that can do it faster. When I use a
Soldapullt, I still have to mess with breaking the pins free of the last
bit of solder. When I use a Pace, I apply suction while orbiting the
desolder tip around the pin, causing the pin to orbit in the PCB hole.
This gets the pin/hole cleared of solder much more effectively. This is
the technique taught in the Pace manuals, and I can tell you, it is VERY
effective. Like these 68-pin connectors in the 6-layer board, when I
get the last pin unsoldered, it just falls off the board.

Jon

Ignoramus19508 wrote:
I do indeed like its temp control and other features. I have it set at
950 degrees.

I will now look for accessories for it.
Ouch, that's real high. If I was wanting to repair the PC board (rather
than salvaging the
chips) I would stay below 800. I often run it at 750.

If you get good heat transfer at 950 the traces will come off the boards
for sure.

Jon

On Jan 31, 1:28 am, Ignoramus19508 ignoramus19...@NOSPAM.
19508.invalid wrote:
On 2008-01-31, Jon Elson wrote:



Ignoramus19508 wrote:
On 2008-01-30, Don Foreman wrote:

The name (SMD2000) suggests that it is intended mostly for use with
surfacemount devices. Very little solder is used per connection with
these tiny devices and soldering irons (as by Pace) are quite small.
A better choice for larger connections, like switches in a welder,
would be a heavier iron (Weller?) and a manual soldersucker as
"Soldapullt".
http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bi...uct/2920-0019/

No, these things (at least with the right handpiece, like the
SX70) can remove an INCREDIBLE amount of solder in one slurp.
Remember, companies won't pay $2500 for something like this if
it didn't actually work. One nice thing about this sort of unit
is it has a temperature-controlled heater with temperature
readout of the tip, and the heating tip is also the sucker, so
you don't have to switch quickly from soldering iron to sucker
before the joint cools. Another nice thing about the high-end
Pace and Weller gear is that individual replacement parts are
available, so you can replace any single piece that wears out or
breaks.

After adjusting vacuum adjustment to highest vacuum, I tried the PACE
station today on some junk boards, it sucks solder very well now.

I do indeed like its temp control and other features. I have it set at
950 degrees.

I will now look for accessories for it.

i

Ig

Those pace stations truly do separate TEMPERATURE and POWER

the "sensatemp" family of irons deliver their power at whatever
temperature they are set at. they will melt more at 5-600F than at
900F without damaging the underlying equipment when its sensitive to
high heat.

you might actually NOT want to spike the heat while desoldering since
that will not help significantly in desoldering and might damage the
IC's being desoldered more

BTW feel free to contact me if you happen across spare PACE sensatemp
handles or if you want any pace MBT (Build in Vacuum and air) power
suppilies


Brent
Ottawa Caanda

On 2008-01-31, Jon Elson wrote:
Oh, I definitely was not suggesting that everyone go out and buy a Pace
station. But, Iggy already HAD the station, it just wasn't working
right. And, yes, they do take some maintenance, but when doing a bunch
of connections, there's nothing that can do it faster. When I use a
Soldapullt, I still have to mess with breaking the pins free of the last
bit of solder. When I use a Pace, I apply suction while orbiting the
desolder tip around the pin, causing the pin to orbit in the PCB hole.
This gets the pin/hole cleared of solder much more effectively. This is
the technique taught in the Pace manuals, and I can tell you, it is VERY
effective. Like these 68-pin connectors in the 6-layer board, when I
get the last pin unsoldered, it just falls off the board.

Jon, do you solder with your station also?

How do you use it in reality?

i

On 2008-01-31, Brent wrote:
On Jan 31, 1:28 am, Ignoramus19508 ignoramus19...@NOSPAM.
19508.invalid wrote:
On 2008-01-31, Jon Elson wrote:



Ignoramus19508 wrote:
On 2008-01-30, Don Foreman wrote:

The name (SMD2000) suggests that it is intended mostly for use with
surfacemount devices. Very little solder is used per connection with
these tiny devices and soldering irons (as by Pace) are quite small.
A better choice for larger connections, like switches in a welder,
would be a heavier iron (Weller?) and a manual soldersucker as
"Soldapullt".
http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bi...uct/2920-0019/

No, these things (at least with the right handpiece, like the
SX70) can remove an INCREDIBLE amount of solder in one slurp.
Remember, companies won't pay $2500 for something like this if
it didn't actually work. One nice thing about this sort of unit
is it has a temperature-controlled heater with temperature
readout of the tip, and the heating tip is also the sucker, so
you don't have to switch quickly from soldering iron to sucker
before the joint cools. Another nice thing about the high-end
Pace and Weller gear is that individual replacement parts are
available, so you can replace any single piece that wears out or
breaks.

After adjusting vacuum adjustment to highest vacuum, I tried the PACE
station today on some junk boards, it sucks solder very well now.

I do indeed like its temp control and other features. I have it set at
950 degrees.

I will now look for accessories for it.

i

Ig

Those pace stations truly do separate TEMPERATURE and POWER

the "sensatemp" family of irons deliver their power at whatever
temperature they are set at. they will melt more at 5-600F than at
900F without damaging the underlying equipment when its sensitive to
high heat.

Yes, that's what mine does.

you might actually NOT want to spike the heat while desoldering since
that will not help significantly in desoldering and might damage the
IC's being desoldered more

BTW feel free to contact me if you happen across spare PACE sensatemp
handles or if you want any pace MBT (Build in Vacuum and air) power
suppilies

thanks... that would not be me... I am looking for tips...

i

On 2008-01-31, Jon Elson wrote:


Ignoramus19508 wrote:
On 2008-01-31, Don Foreman wrote:


In fact, this is what I like about these boards, they are 1) very low
tech and 2) easy to repair due to good part placement 3) easy to
identify components, which look mostly off the shelf.

My repair was, obviously, the most trivial kind, but I appreciated
repairability of these boards.

I had to dig into my 800+ Pound Lincoln square-wave TIG 300 machine,
and old-school transformer AC/DC constant-current power source with
SCR phase control. Well, the power components are mostly brazed,
welded, etc. and then everything bolts together. But, there are
several fairly large circuit boards in it. There is a main control
board that pretty much covers the entire back of the control panel,
and then a power supply board, a phase controller board and a safety
board, as I recall. Yes, everything is off the shelf, resistors,
caps, ICs, pots and switches, etc. The shield gas post flow timer
was bad, and I had to trace the wiring and replace it. As the damn
boards are all conformal coated, I DID use my Pace tool to desolder
it, it does a much better job when the going gets rough.

By the way, grinding dust is the reason for conformal coating.

i

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:20:56 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote:
snip
Oh, I definitely was not suggesting that everyone go out and buy a Pace
station. But, Iggy already HAD the station, it just wasn't working
right. And, yes, they do take some maintenance, but when doing a bunch
of connections, there's nothing that can do it faster. When I use a
Soldapullt, I still have to mess with breaking the pins free of the last
bit of solder. When I use a Pace, I apply suction while orbiting the
desolder tip around the pin, causing the pin to orbit in the PCB hole.
This gets the pin/hole cleared of solder much more effectively. This is
the technique taught in the Pace manuals, and I can tell you, it is VERY
effective. Like these 68-pin connectors in the 6-layer board, when I
get the last pin unsoldered, it just falls off the board.

I think that everyone who has used a desolder station for
their profession knows the "suck and wiggle" method. I'll
stand by my claim though, the Deluxe Soldapullt will beat
the desolder station on oinky jobs.

I was the depot solution for our group of shops. I fixed the
stuff other tech's bailed out on or badly messed up trying
to fix (shrug). I saw my share of circuit board butcher
jobs...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Leon Fisk wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:23:07 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:

I certainly won't refute your good experience with the $2500 tool ...
but if you didn't have the $2500 tool available to you then you might
benefit from a Soldapullt lesson by a technician who is proficient
with one.

I also doubt that repair of circuit boards in Miller Welders is
strongly comparable to the rather more sophisticated and challenging
work you do with 68-pin connectors on 6-layer boards.

I've used both (Pace and Soldapullt) and a Soldapullt would
beat the Pace on oinky work. I learned desoldering with a
Soldapullt so maybe that is why I could make it work well. I
had a Pace desolder-station, two Weller pencils and two 250
watt plus guns at my bench. The Pace required continuous
maintenance (as others have said) and it worked well, but a
Soldapullt could beat it albeit at a slower rate. I worked
on surface mount itsy-bitsy stuff all the way up to... We
also had a Hotair station for surface mount chips but that
is a whole'nuther discussion...

For Jon, if you are pulling the pencil away from the joint
and then moving the Soldapullt in, you are doing it wrong.

Correct. The solder has to be completely melted, and not freezing when you
remove it.

You leave the pencil on the joint, rest the Soldapullt tip
so it touches the board but not the pencil tip and then fire
it. Be careful about this, it you contact the pencil tip too
much with the Soldapullt you can damage the circuit board
trace when it fires.

The mini/small Soldapullt's are crap, (like the model US140
Edsyn Universal Soldapullt) not enough suction. Get the big
one like Don linked to. I still have two Soldapullt's, the
old Blue and yellow (DS017) and the silver anti-static
version (AS196). They are both over 15 years old and still
work fine.

The only maintence they could ever need is a new tip and maybe a drop of
lube on the o-ring.

Desolder stations on nice to have, but a bit pricey for only
occasional use.

I don't do any smd stuff, but I really can't think of any desoldering task
task that wasn't doable with just a solder sucker and maybe desoldering
braid. The most important thing to have is a decent soldering iron and the
correct sized tips. Even cheapo weller irons are perfectly acceptable for
most work.

Adding more solder to a joint being undone will almost always help.

Ignoramus18705 wrote:
On 2008-01-31, Jon Elson wrote:

Oh, I definitely was not suggesting that everyone go out and buy a Pace
station. But, Iggy already HAD the station, it just wasn't working
right. And, yes, they do take some maintenance, but when doing a bunch
of connections, there's nothing that can do it faster. When I use a
Soldapullt, I still have to mess with breaking the pins free of the last
bit of solder. When I use a Pace, I apply suction while orbiting the
desolder tip around the pin, causing the pin to orbit in the PCB hole.
This gets the pin/hole cleared of solder much more effectively. This is
the technique taught in the Pace manuals, and I can tell you, it is VERY
effective. Like these 68-pin connectors in the 6-layer board, when I
get the last pin unsoldered, it just falls off the board.


Jon, do you solder with your station also?
I have a one-channel unit at home for desoldering only. I use it rarely,
but when I have some large number of connections to desolder, or something
expensive that is likely to be a bear with other tools, it is a great
tool to have. No matter how difficult the thermal considerations of the
board, the Pace WILL desolder the part with no damage, and I get a clean
part and a clean board without wrecking the through holes.

I have an MBT station at work that has 3 channels. We got it with a
whole pile of tips, handles, etc. I used it for a while for both
soldering and desoldering, but am now doing a lot of extreme
micro-soldering on chips with 0.5mm lead pitch, and we needed a real
micro iron. So, we got a Weller WSL with the WMP micro-pencil, which is
actually a darn good general iron for all electronic work.

I have a collection of older Weller digital readout soldering stations
at home with the 1302 mini soldering pencil, which I actually like just
a little better than the WMP. You can get an EC2002 and ESD1302 pencil
fairly cheap on eBay if you are patient.

Jon

On 2008-02-01, Jon Elson wrote:
I have a one-channel unit at home for desoldering only. I use it rarely,
but when I have some large number of connections to desolder, or something
expensive that is likely to be a bear with other tools, it is a great
tool to have. No matter how difficult the thermal considerations of the
board, the Pace WILL desolder the part with no damage, and I get a clean
part and a clean board without wrecking the through holes.

I have an MBT station at work that has 3 channels. We got it with a
whole pile of tips, handles, etc. I used it for a while for both
soldering and desoldering, but am now doing a lot of extreme
micro-soldering on chips with 0.5mm lead pitch, and we needed a real
micro iron. So, we got a Weller WSL with the WMP micro-pencil, which is
actually a darn good general iron for all electronic work.

I have a collection of older Weller digital readout soldering stations
at home with the 1302 mini soldering pencil, which I actually like just
a little better than the WMP. You can get an EC2002 and ESD1302 pencil
fairly cheap on eBay if you are patient.

Interesting. My regular $3 soldering iron is fine for wires, but too
large for circuit boards. I will indeed look into soldering stations
and will check out my station thoroughly to see what soldering
possibilities it offers.

i

On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 16:00:35 -0600, Ignoramus31882
wrote:

Interesting. My regular $3 soldering iron is fine for wires, but too
large for circuit boards. I will indeed look into soldering stations
and will check out my station thoroughly to see what soldering
possibilities it offers.

Hey, you want to borrow my 175W American Beauty "war club" pencil
iron for doing circuit board repairs? It'll go faster... ;-P

(That iron was great for tying cables down on terminal strips all
night, but the absolutely wrong choice for PCB repairs.)

If you are doing any sort of delicate board repair soldering you
really do need a temperature controlled station. Too much heat can
either ruin the components, or lift the traces off the circuit board,
or both - and now it's trash or a huge patch job. And if the tools
aren't ESD rated, you can wipe out static sensitive components in no
time at all.

I bit the bullet and bought a Weller WESD-51 pencil iron when I
needed one. and the table static mat and wrist straps, etc. But as
you well know there are bargains out there if you can wait and watch.

-- Bruce --

My Weller digital tip temperature controlled iron is *great*. You
really want one, whether you know it or not. Huge amounts of power,
delivered exactly as you need it, to heat up a solder joint to the
right temperature.

I have to think it could have been a couple of dollars cheaper, as
I've never moved the temperature off of 750F and don't really care
about the digital temperature display.

But it does what I need it to do, when I need it to do it. What could
be better?

On 2008-02-01, Jon Elson wrote:

[ ... ]

I have an MBT station at work that has 3 channels. We got it with a
whole pile of tips, handles, etc. I used it for a while for both
soldering and desoldering, but am now doing a lot of extreme
micro-soldering on chips with 0.5mm lead pitch, and we needed a real
micro iron. So, we got a Weller WSL with the WMP micro-pencil, which is
actually a darn good general iron for all electronic work.

Does anyone know what happened to the Edsyn "Loner" iron? That
used to be my favorite, but I don't see them offered any more. Complete
thermal control of the tip in a very lightweight and skinny handle.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 22:37:49 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:

My Weller digital tip temperature controlled iron is *great*. You
really want one, whether you know it or not. Huge amounts of power,
delivered exactly as you need it, to heat up a solder joint to the
right temperature.

I have to think it could have been a couple of dollars cheaper, as
I've never moved the temperature off of 750F and don't really care
about the digital temperature display.

But it does what I need it to do, when I need it to do it. What could
be better?

750F?? _ Egad!! Might as well use a roofers torch...

Clue: I leave mine set at 400, unless it's big work and it obviously
needs a bit more - 60/40 solder melts at 350 - 360ish F, some of the
lead-free solders are a bit higher. (The exact numbers are available
in the manufacturer literature.)

The whole idea is to /not/ cook the traces right off the board.

-- Bruce --

On 2008-02-02, Bruce L Bergman wrote:
On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 16:00:35 -0600, Ignoramus31882
wrote:

Interesting. My regular $3 soldering iron is fine for wires, but too
large for circuit boards. I will indeed look into soldering stations
and will check out my station thoroughly to see what soldering
possibilities it offers.

Hey, you want to borrow my 175W American Beauty "war club" pencil
iron for doing circuit board repairs? It'll go faster... ;-P

Piker. I've got an "American Beauty" which is something like
450 or 750 Watts. It is my "slaughtering" iron. :-) I used to use it
for quickly defrosting an ancient International Harvester refrigerator
at work. :-)

If you are doing any sort of delicate board repair soldering you
really do need a temperature controlled station. Too much heat can
either ruin the components, or lift the traces off the circuit board,
or both - and now it's trash or a huge patch job. And if the tools
aren't ESD rated, you can wipe out static sensitive components in no
time at all.

I bit the bullet and bought a Weller WESD-51 pencil iron when I
needed one. and the table static mat and wrist straps, etc. But as
you well know there are bargains out there if you can wait and watch.

I really loved my Edsyn "Loner" -- but they seem to be out of
production these days. Really skinny iron and handle, transparent
handle, with a board controlling the tip temperature inside. There also
was a screw-on outer sleeve which could go over the really skinny iron
and hold an extra thermal mass for tasks needing a bit more immediate
heat.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-02-01, Jon Elson wrote:

[ ... ]

I have an MBT station at work that has 3 channels. We got it with a
whole pile of tips, handles, etc. I used it for a while for both
soldering and desoldering, but am now doing a lot of extreme
micro-soldering on chips with 0.5mm lead pitch, and we needed a real
micro iron. So, we got a Weller WSL with the WMP micro-pencil, which is
actually a darn good general iron for all electronic work.

Does anyone know what happened to the Edsyn "Loner" iron? That
used to be my favorite, but I don't see them offered any more. Complete
thermal control of the tip in a very lightweight and skinny handle.


I haven't seen any since 2001. We had about 200 of them at
Microdyne. I was 'loaned' to the ME office a couple times to test and
calibrate every iron in the facility. Did you ever use the .015" tip,
with the collet for surface mount work? They were more trouble than
they were worth. the .015" Ersin rework solder was great. When all the
tips were gone, I went back to the smallest standard tip from Plato, and
used a corner to apply heat.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On 2008-02-04, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

Does anyone know what happened to the Edsyn "Loner" iron? That
used to be my favorite, but I don't see them offered any more. Complete
thermal control of the tip in a very lightweight and skinny handle.


I haven't seen any since 2001.

Ouch! Is the company still around? Do they still repair them?
Mine have a significant failure of the strain relief, plus some
fracturing of the clear handle.

We had about 200 of them at
Microdyne. I was 'loaned' to the ME office a couple times to test and
calibrate every iron in the facility. Did you ever use the .015" tip,
with the collet for surface mount work?

Nope! I did use the smallest which I had with some solid copper
wire from phone cable wrapped a couple of turns around the tip and then
directed out and tinned for the little surface mount work I did -- under
a stereo zoom microscope.

They were more trouble than
they were worth. the .015" Ersin rework solder was great.

I've still got got some of that -- and love it.

When all the
tips were gone, I went back to the smallest standard tip from Plato, and
used a corner to apply heat.

O.K.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 22:37:49 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:


My Weller digital tip temperature controlled iron is *great*. You
really want one, whether you know it or not. Huge amounts of power,
delivered exactly as you need it, to heat up a solder joint to the
right temperature.

I have to think it could have been a couple of dollars cheaper, as
I've never moved the temperature off of 750F and don't really care
about the digital temperature display.

But it does what I need it to do, when I need it to do it. What could
be better?


750F?? _ Egad!! Might as well use a roofers torch...

Clue: I leave mine set at 400, unless it's big work and it obviously
needs a bit more - 60/40 solder melts at 350 - 360ish F, some of the
lead-free solders are a bit higher. (The exact numbers are available
in the manufacturer literature.)
That works with a thick tip, but when you get into the small stuff, the
thermal mass of the component and traces takes a long time to heat with
so little delta-T. I usually do tin-lead mass soldering at about 650 F,
but go to 700 or even 750 for desoldering and rework. You need 750
for lead-free solder. Now, this is for these needle-point tips which
just can't flow as much heat.

Jon

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-02-04, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

Does anyone know what happened to the Edsyn "Loner" iron? That
used to be my favorite, but I don't see them offered any more. Complete
thermal control of the tip in a very lightweight and skinny handle.


I haven't seen any since 2001.

Ouch! Is the company still around? Do they still repair them?
Mine have a significant failure of the strain relief, plus some
fracturing of the clear handle.


http://www.edsyn.com/main.asp?inc=productsupp



We had about 200 of them at
Microdyne. I was 'loaned' to the ME office a couple times to test and
calibrate every iron in the facility. Did you ever use the .015" tip,
with the collet for surface mount work?

Nope! I did use the smallest which I had with some solid copper
wire from phone cable wrapped a couple of turns around the tip and then
directed out and tinned for the little surface mount work I did -- under
a stereo zoom microscope.

They were more trouble than
they were worth. the .015" Ersin rework solder was great.

I've still got got some of that -- and love it.

When all the
tips were gone, I went back to the smallest standard tip from Plato, and
used a corner to apply heat.

O.K.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On 2008-02-06, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-02-04, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

Does anyone know what happened to the Edsyn "Loner" iron? That
used to be my favorite, but I don't see them offered any more. Complete
thermal control of the tip in a very lightweight and skinny handle.


I haven't seen any since 2001.

Ouch! Is the company still around? Do they still repair them?
Mine have a significant failure of the strain relief, plus some
fracturing of the clear handle.


http://www.edsyn.com/main.asp?inc=productsupp

Thanks. I've now got an e-mail on the way to their site.

Again, thanks,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-02-06, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

http://www.edsyn.com/main.asp?inc=productsupp

Thanks. I've now got an e-mail on the way to their site.

Again, thanks,
DoN.


You're welcome. Solder is one of my favorite metals. ;-)


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On 2008-02-09, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-02-06, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

http://www.edsyn.com/main.asp?inc=productsupp

Thanks. I've now got an e-mail on the way to their site.

You're welcome. Solder is one of my favorite metals. ;-)

And it was the first metal that I worked regularly.

Bad news. The irons are too old for them to have any repair
parts still around. The choices seem to be for me to make my own handle
for the broken one, or to buy a more modern version.

Thanks anyway,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-02-09, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

You're welcome. Solder is one of my favorite metals. ;-)

And it was the first metal that I worked regularly.


I started at 10. My dad had a crappy old iron that was pretty bad,
but it did melt solder. Of course, the stuff that was easy to find in
the early '60s was large diameter 50/50 cored junk that was already dull
looking when you bought it.



Bad news. The irons are too old for them to have any repair
parts still around. The choices seem to be for me to make my own handle
for the broken one, or to buy a more modern version.


There is always Ebay. OTOH, a newer iron would have parts available,
if you have to depend on always having a good iron available. I had
three 'Loners' on my bench at Microdyne, and spent the first five
minutes of each day cleaning and testing them for tip to ground
resistance and inspecting the tips.


Now, where DID I put all those spare, NOS 175 Watt American Beauty
soldering iron elements? I know I had at least a dozen.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:14:40 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2008-02-09, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

You're welcome. Solder is one of my favorite metals. ;-)

And it was the first metal that I worked regularly.


I started at 10. My dad had a crappy old iron that was pretty bad,
but it did melt solder. Of course, the stuff that was easy to find in
the early '60s was large diameter 50/50 cored junk that was already dull
looking when you bought it.



Bad news. The irons are too old for them to have any repair
parts still around. The choices seem to be for me to make my own handle
for the broken one, or to buy a more modern version.


There is always Ebay. OTOH, a newer iron would have parts available,
if you have to depend on always having a good iron available. I had
three 'Loners' on my bench at Microdyne, and spent the first five
minutes of each day cleaning and testing them for tip to ground
resistance and inspecting the tips.


Now, where DID I put all those spare, NOS 175 Watt American Beauty
soldering iron elements? I know I had at least a dozen.
I haven't needed any replacement parts other than the generic 100 watt
tips for my Weller Junior that I bought, mail order from Allied
sometime in the early '50s. I've bought several newer copies for a
buck or two on Saturday mornings since the and found homes for them
among offspring, friends and/or acquaintances, but the old original
stays plugged in my shop (it was loaned out for 1959 to a TV repair
shop owner whose Wen gun ate tips at one per week). Granted, this is
not the tool for modern printed circuit work, and I have some
specials, but then, I am somewhat of an antique myself.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Gerald Miller wrote:

I haven't needed any replacement parts other than the generic 100 watt
tips for my Weller Junior that I bought, mail order from Allied
sometime in the early '50s. I've bought several newer copies for a
buck or two on Saturday mornings since the and found homes for them
among offspring, friends and/or acquaintances, but the old original
stays plugged in my shop (it was loaned out for 1959 to a TV repair
shop owner whose Wen gun ate tips at one per week). Granted, this is
not the tool for modern printed circuit work, and I have some
specials, but then, I am somewhat of an antique myself.


I still have my Weller 8200 that i bought new in 1966, while I was in
Junior High school. I really splurged, and bought the injection molded
case with the wrench and spare tips. ;-)

I still have the 175 watt weller iron, along with three SP23 irons
that were bought in the early '70s. I finally broke down and bought one
new one, after the threads finally burnt out of one heating element.
What a shock! It was over five times the price!

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida