On 2008-01-13, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:39:36 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus30324 quickly quoth:

On 2008-01-13, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:21:02 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus30324 quickly quoth:

I run the following apps on linux:

- browser
- office
- email
- Pidgin (instant messaging with all platforms)
- editor
- newsreader
- movie viewer

What does "instant messaging" have that email doesn't? Online chat
function?

Yes, it is instant chat. Yahoo messenger, google messenger, MSN, AOL,
ICQ, that's what pidgin does. It is available under Windows too.

Why use IM vs email or phone?


I only use it to talk to my wife when we are both at work. Makes it
easy to discuss, e.g., shopping plans. Otherwise I am not a fan of
instant messaging.

i

On 2008-01-12, Gunner wrote:

[ ... ]

My big issue with most versions of Linux, Xandros being the exception,
is the **** poor way it handles dialup internet connections, let alone
finding the modem.

Aha! Here we get the rant which you mentioned in another
article, which happened to show up before this with the order of
threading on what I was reading. :-)

Ive been stockpiling USR 56K external modems. I can pick em up at the
second hand stores for $2.

You cant get any more plain jane, vanilla than a USR external modem.

Yet half the time most versions of Linux wont find the sombitch. And
if it does, it may dial out after some interminable
wait..connect..then simply sit there.

What *used* to be the best modem for connecting to an ISP via
the unix tools was the Telebit TrailBlazer. It has built in the ability
to spoof uucp and zmodem protocols, so your computer talks rapidly to
the modem, then connects to the far end over the weird multi-band trick
that Telebit used, and goes through similar spoofing ato the other end
so you don't get slowed down waiting for handshakes.

The Telebit was supposedly something like 14.4K (with faster
connections through the RS-232 itself), but it would establish a faster
transfer over a marginal phone line than a 28K modem would. (I was
talking to uunet at the time -- through the local phone lines which gave
terrible speeds to the standard 28K modem -- often falling back to 2400
baud.) Then uunet changed their modem pool to 56K, and my connect-time
costs shot up (over doubled), so I changed ISPs.

A bit later, I got a Frame Relay feed from the new ISP, and in
the process of setting that one up (the phone company had to provide two
data-grade pair to run the Frame Relay), they discovered that there was
a stub off the cables feeding our street -- which went off to a newer
area another seven miles or so out -- and unused there, so there were
echos from the unterminated wires at that far end of the stub. This
tore up standard 56K modems (and Frame Relay, for that matter), but
didn't phase the Telebits. They split the phone line bandwidth up into
512 narrow bands, and then spend about thirty seconds arguing with the
other end over who uses which bands for which direction -- ignoring the
noisy bands (such as the ones whose frequency happened to match a
reflection time from the stub. As a result, Telebit modems were
wonderful -- as long as you could convince the other end to use them
too. :-(

I used uucp through the Telebits, and for a short while through
the 28K modem. Then I set up SLIP on one of my Suns -- back in the days
when you had to find the sources and compile it yourself. (And you
complain about a few configuration files. :-)

Open a browser...404...no modem light activity.

Ive tried a half dozen versions of PPP etc etc

SLIP was a predecessor of PPP, and I sort of flipped a coin to
pick the SLIP instead of the PPP at the time.

I LIKE being able to bypass Micro**** products, but dialup support
sucks with most linux.

And I still dont understand why they, when they do dial out..simply
sit there like a brightly lit turd.

Its not rocket science to actually communcate via a modem, without
going through all manner of bull**** changes to obscure config files
and what not.

The difference is that when you learn to set up the
configuration files, you also know how to disable it. Windows hides all
of that so you can't know how to be sure something is shut down.

Anyway -- when I moved from the SLIP to the Frame Relay, the
"modem" box (actually CSU/DSU) handled the protocol, and it could be
simply set up like you were connecting to a local LAN -- except that it
would reach the whole world. The same applies to my current T1, cable
modems, DSLs, fiber optics (if your phone company offers it) and others,
all of which make modems hardly worth the time to develop software for
beyond the existing uucp stuff.

Ive tried Supra modems, yada yada yada...changed At codes, the full
monty...and it sucks.

Im currently running Xandros 4 OCE on one of my boxes, not that I
really like it..but it actually dials out and connects.

WTF, over?

"Over" is about it. The time of modems is over for serious
users. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2008-01-12, Dave Hinz wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:58:13 -0500, Karl Townsend wrote:
Sense this thread had turned into an OS rant, I'll add mine.

I don't understand all the hubbub over Linix. It doesn't run applications!

It doesn't? Then, I must be doing it wrong.

[ ... ]

Yeah, my employer is doing it wrong too then. If you're serious and not
trolling, what specific apps do you feel Linux does not have? 10 or 15
years ago, your statements might have had some basis but today, not so
much.

Well ... I don't run Linux normally, but I also don't run
Windows normally. I do use mostly Sun's Solaris, and OpenBSD for
various things. And for most things that *I* need to do, the
applications are there.

One exception is when someone makes a product which needs
updating via the net (e.g. my TomTom GPS) they first write their end of
the net connection so it will *only* talk to an application which they
supply. And then, they supply the application only for Windows or
perhaps for the Mac. No such thing as just downloading the software
updates to some other system and then applying it via USB to the device.
(This even applies to the software/firmware which runs the GPS, and
which *won't* run on anything else anyway, so why protect it?)

The other exception is income tax software. I would gladly pay
(somewhat) more to have something which will run on my Suns, even if it
comes in source form and I have to compile it. You would think that at
least Suns would be supported (as commercial systems), even if various
free OS's like the various BSDs and linux distributions were not.

But no -- if I want to run the income tax software (or the
support for the TomTom GPS receiver) on unix, I have to go out and buy a
Mac (which is what I did), since I don't trust Windows as far as I could
throw the heaviest Sun server which I have (which isn't very far. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:24:01 -0800, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:39:36 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus30324 quickly quoth:

Yes, it is instant chat. Yahoo messenger, google messenger, MSN, AOL,
ICQ, that's what pidgin does. It is available under Windows too.

Why use IM vs email or phone?

We use it extensively at work, here and my last two employers. Makes
collaboration in realtime easier - when several people are working on
the same, say, broken server, we can each be doing our part and keeping
the group updated on what's going on. Also works great for more
time-sensitive stuff like "I'm out of coffee, let's go" or figuring out
where lunch is.

On 13 Jan 2008 03:26:21 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2008-01-12, Gunner wrote:

[ ... ]

My big issue with most versions of Linux, Xandros being the exception,
is the **** poor way it handles dialup internet connections, let alone
finding the modem.

Aha! Here we get the rant which you mentioned in another
article, which happened to show up before this with the order of
threading on what I was reading. :-)

Ive been stockpiling USR 56K external modems. I can pick em up at the
second hand stores for $2.

You cant get any more plain jane, vanilla than a USR external modem.

Yet half the time most versions of Linux wont find the sombitch. And
if it does, it may dial out after some interminable
wait..connect..then simply sit there.

What *used* to be the best modem for connecting to an ISP via
the unix tools was the Telebit TrailBlazer. It has built in the ability
to spoof uucp and zmodem protocols, so your computer talks rapidly to
the modem, then connects to the far end over the weird multi-band trick
that Telebit used, and goes through similar spoofing ato the other end
so you don't get slowed down waiting for handshakes.

The Telebit was supposedly something like 14.4K (with faster
connections through the RS-232 itself), but it would establish a faster
transfer over a marginal phone line than a 28K modem would. (I was
talking to uunet at the time -- through the local phone lines which gave
terrible speeds to the standard 28K modem -- often falling back to 2400
baud.) Then uunet changed their modem pool to 56K, and my connect-time
costs shot up (over doubled), so I changed ISPs.

A bit later, I got a Frame Relay feed from the new ISP, and in
the process of setting that one up (the phone company had to provide two
data-grade pair to run the Frame Relay), they discovered that there was
a stub off the cables feeding our street -- which went off to a newer
area another seven miles or so out -- and unused there, so there were
echos from the unterminated wires at that far end of the stub. This
tore up standard 56K modems (and Frame Relay, for that matter), but
didn't phase the Telebits. They split the phone line bandwidth up into
512 narrow bands, and then spend about thirty seconds arguing with the
other end over who uses which bands for which direction -- ignoring the
noisy bands (such as the ones whose frequency happened to match a
reflection time from the stub. As a result, Telebit modems were
wonderful -- as long as you could convince the other end to use them
too. :-(

I used uucp through the Telebits, and for a short while through
the 28K modem. Then I set up SLIP on one of my Suns -- back in the days
when you had to find the sources and compile it yourself. (And you
complain about a few configuration files. :-)

Open a browser...404...no modem light activity.

Ive tried a half dozen versions of PPP etc etc

SLIP was a predecessor of PPP, and I sort of flipped a coin to
pick the SLIP instead of the PPP at the time.

I LIKE being able to bypass Micro**** products, but dialup support
sucks with most linux.

And I still dont understand why they, when they do dial out..simply
sit there like a brightly lit turd.

Its not rocket science to actually communcate via a modem, without
going through all manner of bull**** changes to obscure config files
and what not.

The difference is that when you learn to set up the
configuration files, you also know how to disable it. Windows hides all
of that so you can't know how to be sure something is shut down.

Anyway -- when I moved from the SLIP to the Frame Relay, the
"modem" box (actually CSU/DSU) handled the protocol, and it could be
simply set up like you were connecting to a local LAN -- except that it
would reach the whole world. The same applies to my current T1, cable
modems, DSLs, fiber optics (if your phone company offers it) and others,
all of which make modems hardly worth the time to develop software for
beyond the existing uucp stuff.

Ive tried Supra modems, yada yada yada...changed At codes, the full
monty...and it sucks.

Im currently running Xandros 4 OCE on one of my boxes, not that I
really like it..but it actually dials out and connects.

WTF, over?

"Over" is about it. The time of modems is over for serious
users. :-)

There is No..I repeat..NO DSL, Frame Relay etc etc available where I
live. The only Highspeed is Roadrunner (Time Warner) cable modem, and
costs $79 per month cause its not available without cable tv packages.

The CO supervisor has indicated that Verizon has no plans in the near
or distant future to install DSL in my town.

So there is no..I say again..no other alternative besides dialup.

Which brings us back to my rant about Linux and its ****ty handlng of
dialups. Some do very well, Xandros for example..most others hang
****.

And there is no easy way to tell what will and will not work. For the
end user, who is not a long term commandline unix/linux jockey..it
really sucks.
Which is why Im still having to use Winblows for most of my stuff.
That and wifi..which is still damned iffy with Linux, even with name
brand wifi products such as linksys

Frankly..I want the product to work. If I wanted to fiddle ****
around, Id be out in the shop making Stuff, or out on the range
perforating Stuff.

Gunner


Gunner


Enjoy,
DoN.

On 2008-01-13, Gunner wrote:

There is No..I repeat..NO DSL, Frame Relay etc etc available where I
live. The only Highspeed is Roadrunner (Time Warner) cable modem, and
costs $79 per month cause its not available without cable tv packages.

The CO supervisor has indicated that Verizon has no plans in the near
or distant future to install DSL in my town.

So there is no..I say again..no other alternative besides dialup.

Which brings us back to my rant about Linux and its ****ty handlng of
dialups. Some do very well, Xandros for example..most others hang
****.

And there is no easy way to tell what will and will not work. For the
end user, who is not a long term commandline unix/linux jockey..it
really sucks.
Which is why Im still having to use Winblows for most of my stuff.
That and wifi..which is still damned iffy with Linux, even with name
brand wifi products such as linksys

Frankly..I want the product to work. If I wanted to fiddle ****
around, Id be out in the shop making Stuff, or out on the range
perforating Stuff.

First of all, command line is the way to make things work very well
and to work all the time.

However, modern Linuxes have NetworkManager, which supports dialup. At
least that is the case about Ubuntu. I attest that it works and is
100% GUI based. It is a part of the distro.

i

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 23:46:29 -0600, Ignoramus30324
wrote:

On 2008-01-13, Gunner wrote:

There is No..I repeat..NO DSL, Frame Relay etc etc available where I
live. The only Highspeed is Roadrunner (Time Warner) cable modem, and
costs $79 per month cause its not available without cable tv packages.

The CO supervisor has indicated that Verizon has no plans in the near
or distant future to install DSL in my town.

So there is no..I say again..no other alternative besides dialup.

Which brings us back to my rant about Linux and its ****ty handlng of
dialups. Some do very well, Xandros for example..most others hang
****.

And there is no easy way to tell what will and will not work. For the
end user, who is not a long term commandline unix/linux jockey..it
really sucks.
Which is why Im still having to use Winblows for most of my stuff.
That and wifi..which is still damned iffy with Linux, even with name
brand wifi products such as linksys

Frankly..I want the product to work. If I wanted to fiddle ****
around, Id be out in the shop making Stuff, or out on the range
perforating Stuff.

First of all, command line is the way to make things work very well
and to work all the time.

However, modern Linuxes have NetworkManager, which supports dialup. At
least that is the case about Ubuntu. I attest that it works and is
100% GUI based. It is a part of the distro.

i
And when it dials out..and simply sits there....?

Gunner

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:14:12 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm,
Gunner quickly quoth:

On 13 Jan 2008 03:26:21 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2008-01-12, Gunner wrote:

[ ... ]

My big issue with most versions of Linux, Xandros being the exception,
is the **** poor way it handles dialup internet connections, let alone
finding the modem.

If you ever find yourself needing high DL rates, you might settle for
satellite Internet service. They're 2-way, but the UL section is a
tenth that of DL speed. When FTPing files for a new website, I found
it faster to UL them via dialup than Starband. It came with DishTV and
the installation was only $1000 6 years ago. Feh! I'm done with both.
When Qwest finally allowed us DSL last April, I jumped and can't be
happier. I see that WIFI doesn't service your little city, either.
Mine's around the corner with a wee 2,000' peak between me and town.

DirecTV/Hughes.net, $250 installation, $60/mo.
WildBlue, $80 installation, $250 equipment, $50/mo.
Starband, $??? installation, $300 equipment, $70/mo. (2-yr contract)
Stuck Farband.

---
Chaos, panic, and disorder--my work here is done.