All

In a previous thread started back on 12/28 I responded about the vfd
conversion I'd recently done to a similar machine. I said I would post
some pictures, they are in the dropbox starting at 5904_vfd.txt. Please
excuse the poor photography. There are caption blurbs for each jpg in
the .txt file.

Regards
Paul
--
-----------------------------------------
It's a Linux world....well, it oughta be.
-----------------------------------------

Paul wrote:
All

In a previous thread started back on 12/28 I responded about the vfd
conversion I'd recently done to a similar machine. I said I would post
some pictures, they are in the dropbox starting at 5904_vfd.txt. Please
excuse the poor photography. There are caption blurbs for each jpg in
the .txt file.

Regards
Paul

Aaaargh, I just noticed the stupid text file didn't wrap at 80
characters. I sent a hopefully fixed one but it will probably take
awhile for it to get updated as it has the same filename as the original
and thus will require manual intervention. Sorry for an inconvenience.

Paul

--
-----------------------------------------
It's a Linux world....well, it ought be.
-----------------------------------------

Paul wrote:

All

In a previous thread started back on 12/28 I responded about the vfd
conversion I'd recently done to a similar machine. I said I would post
some pictures, they are in the dropbox starting at 5904_vfd.txt. Please
excuse the poor photography. There are caption blurbs for each jpg in
the .txt file.

Regards
Paul

Since I like clausings,

http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd.txt
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_01.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_03.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_05.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_08.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_09.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_11.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_15.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_16.jpg

Wes

--
6903 owner and restorer (still)

Wes wrote:


Since I like clausings,

http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd.txt
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_01.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_03.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_05.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_08.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_09.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_11.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_15.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_16.jpg

Wes


Thanks Wes


--
-----------------------------------------
It's a Linux world....well, it oughta be.
-----------------------------------------

Paul, looks really awesome, sounds like you had fun with machines and
put that VFD and motor to good use!!!

i

On 2008-01-05, Wes wrote:
Paul wrote:

All

In a previous thread started back on 12/28 I responded about the vfd
conversion I'd recently done to a similar machine. I said I would post
some pictures, they are in the dropbox starting at 5904_vfd.txt. Please
excuse the poor photography. There are caption blurbs for each jpg in
the .txt file.

Regards
Paul

Since I like clausings,

http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd.txt
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_01.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_03.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_05.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_08.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_09.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_11.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_15.jpg
http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd_16.jpg

Wes

In article ,
Paul wrote:

Paul wrote:
All

In a previous thread started back on 12/28 I responded about the vfd
conversion I'd recently done to a similar machine. I said I would post
some pictures, they are in the dropbox starting at 5904_vfd.txt. Please
excuse the poor photography. There are caption blurbs for each jpg in
the .txt file.

Regards
Paul

Aaaargh, I just noticed the stupid text file didn't wrap at 80
characters. I sent a hopefully fixed one but it will probably take
awhile for it to get updated as it has the same filename as the original
and thus will require manual intervention. Sorry for an inconvenience.

I got the unwrapped one a minute ago.

I would suggest copying the explanatory text for your recent email on
the 5914 into the 5904_vfd.txt file, for completeness.

Thanks for the posting.

Joe Gwinn

On 2008-01-05, Paul wrote:
Paul wrote:
All

In a previous thread started back on 12/28 I responded about the vfd
conversion I'd recently done to a similar machine. I said I would post
some pictures, they are in the dropbox starting at 5904_vfd.txt. Please
excuse the poor photography. There are caption blurbs for each jpg in
the .txt file.

Nice (and useful) photos. Among other things they show how
different the 5900 series is from my 5418.

Aaaargh, I just noticed the stupid text file didn't wrap at 80
characters. I sent a hopefully fixed one but it will probably take
awhile for it to get updated as it has the same filename as the original
and thus will require manual intervention. Sorry for an inconvenience.

I downloaded the unfolded one and discovered another problem as
well in the process of folding the lines.

Several of the original lines appear to have been truncated --
presumably by the software which unpacks the .txt file from the e-mail.
Examples follow (I've trimmed out the middle lines, keeping the first
line for identification, and the last line for where the truncation
occurred.):

================================================== ====================
5904_vfd_05.jpg shows the parts all assembled and ready to be installed.

[ ... ]

other features such as the base cabinet lower cover m
================================================== ====================


================================================== ====================
5904_vfd_08.jpg shows the bracket and motor mounted in the base cabinet

[ ... ]

will get into the control cabinet via a short piece of
================================================== ====================

================================================== ====================
5904_vfd_11.jpg shows the vfd enclosure mounting from a different angle,

[ ... ]

kw (3hp) Mitsubishi 230 volt single phase input in a nic
================================================== ====================

This one may be truncated. No punctuation at the end of the
last sentence, but the final word appears intact.
================================================== ====================
5904_vfd_15.jpg shows the speed pot enclosure and mounting parts. The

[ ... ]

aluminum and will be held into the original speed control boss
================================================== ====================

================================================== ====================
5904_vfd_16.jpg shows the speed pot and enclosure mounted to the top of

[ ... ]

and a temporary hand printed legend plate for speeds in bot
================================================== ====================

If you need, I'll try to phone Steve to tell him that it needs
attention, since he is local.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN. Nichols wrote:


If you need, I'll try to phone Steve to tell him that it needs
attention, since he is local.

Good Luck,
DoN.


Hey DoN

I did send a repaired version after I saw the original munged up copy,
that's what I get for using an unfamiliar editor. According to the
dropbox information, files received with an already used file name go
into some sort of limbo land awaiting human intervention.

A call on my behalf would be appreciated!

Thanks
Paul

--
-----------------------------------------
It's a Linux world....well, it oughta be.
-----------------------------------------

DoN. Nichols wrote:


I downloaded the unfolded one and discovered another problem as
well in the process of folding the lines.


Good Luck,
DoN.

DoN

Here's the .txt file as it should have appeared (don't want to keep you
in suspense)!

------------------------------------
5904_vfd.txt 010408 PDB

5904_vfd_01.jpg shows the lathe base cabinet with all the old drive
parts removed, didn't think to take a picture of it before I started.
The enclosure to the left is the box with the VFD mounted to the back
side of the lathe.

5904_vfd_03.jpg shows the new mounting bracket parts ready to assemble.
All the holes and slots were done on the Bridgeport the pieces are
sitting on. Nothing was scribed and punched, all layout was done 'by
the dials' ala poor man's jig bore.

5904_vfd_05.jpg shows the parts all assembled and ready to be installed.
9 inch channel was used for the motor base, the side pieces are
3x3x1/4 inch angle. Some milling was required for clearance of other
features such as the base cabinet lower cover mounting studs. The two
tapped holes on the back of the base are for brackets for forced cooling
fans and a braking resistor (future).

5904_vfd_08.jpg shows the bracket and motor mounted in the base cabinet
ready to go. The new motor location is about where the original
countershaft/clutch/brake assembly mounted. The motor T leads will get
into the control cabinet via a short piece of sealtight, the fitting is
visable just below the motor pulley in the back of the base cabinet.
The sealtight coming from the control cabinet goes up to the original
drum switch which now is wired to the vfd's forward and reverse inputs.
The red wires visable are the temporarily connected speed control pot
wiring.

5904_vfd_09.jpg is a front view of the new motor etc. The old motor and
brackets are visable in the background on the left. I bought a new belt
even though it turns out I could have made the original belt work but it
was starting to show it's age.

5904_vfd_11.jpg shows the vfd enclosure mounting from a different angle,
I couldn't get much closer due to a wall just to the right. I bought
this vfd from a fellow RCM guy (thanks Iggy), its a 2.2 kw (3hp)
Mitsubishi 230 volt single phase input in a nice Rital enclosure
complete with a lockable disconnect, local/remote selector, pilot light,
etc. The ironic thing is I have 3 phase at this shop.

5904_vfd_15.jpg shows the speed pot enclosure and mounting parts. The
die cast enclosure was a project box from Fry's, very nicely made and
easy to machine. The large disc was machined from aluminum and will be
held into the original speed control boss on the top backside of the
headstock. Bolt and bushing are next to it.

5904_vfd_16.jpg shows the speed pot and enclosure mounted to the top of
the headstock using the mounting boss for the original speed adjuster.
I've since made a nice large brass knob for the pot and a temporary hand
printed legend plate for speeds in both straight and back gear. The
extra space in the box is for future use, maybe a digital speed display
or a big E-stop button or a jog button...time will tell.
-----------------------------------------------

Paul

--
-----------------------------------------
It's a Linux world....well, it oughta be.
-----------------------------------------

On 2008-01-06, Paul wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:


If you need, I'll try to phone Steve to tell him that it needs
attention, since he is local.

[ ... ]

Hey DoN

I did send a repaired version after I saw the original munged up copy,
that's what I get for using an unfamiliar editor. According to the
dropbox information, files received with an already used file name go
into some sort of limbo land awaiting human intervention.

A call on my behalf would be appreciated!

Turns out that it was necessary. It seems that you sent each
file separately, instead of all as attachments to a single e-mail, and
he had not gotten to the notifications on that before you sent the
update, so he made the mistaken assumption that they all were different
parts and put all of the e-mails in the processed folder.

Anyway -- it is now fixed.

I suspect that your finish problems pre VFD were coming in part
from the somewhat frayed belt which you have replaced.

I like the idea of putting a tach display into the project box
with the speed control pot -- and a panic button is not a bad thing to
add, too. I would drive the tach display from a magnetic impulse pickup
counting the teeth on the bull gear. That should give you pulses close
enough together so you don't have to wait for a full rotation or two at
the slower speeds before you get a valid reading.

When I put a VFD and three phase motor in my 5418 I won't have
to do as much work. I'll keep the five-step pulleys for when I need
really slow operation at high torque, or really fast operation at low
torque, with most changes being done with the speed control pot.

I presume that the project box was one of the die-cast zinc
ones? They can be quite useful -- even though Frys is a long way from
here. :-) (But -- there are local vendors who carry them.)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2008-01-06, Paul wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:


I downloaded the unfolded one and discovered another problem as
well in the process of folding the lines.

[ ... ]

Here's the .txt file as it should have appeared (don't want to keep you
in suspense)!

Thanks -- but I called Steve and downloaded the replacement
before reaching this article. :-)

BTW -- he is quite pleased to see something better than a
two-word ".txt" file these days.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN. Nichols wrote:



Turns out that it was necessary. It seems that you sent each
file separately, instead of all as attachments to a single e-mail, and
he had not gotten to the notifications on that before you sent the
update, so he made the mistaken assumption that they all were different
parts and put all of the e-mails in the processed folder.

Anyway -- it is now fixed.

Thanks DoN, it helps to know people in high places Actually the first
email had all the files but instead of .txt the name was _txt and it
never made it into the directory. I then sent a second email with just
the txt file, this time named .txt, it did show up but the formating was
hosed. The third email had the repaired file but it had the same name
as #2...but all is OK now.

I suspect that your finish problems pre VFD were coming in part
from the somewhat frayed belt which you have replaced.

The belt I suspect was the much thicker belt that was between the motor
and countershaft on the variable cone pulleys, but it could have been
the final countershaft to spindle cogged timing belt.

I like the idea of putting a tach display into the project box
with the speed control pot -- and a panic button is not a bad thing to
add, too. I would drive the tach display from a magnetic impulse pickup
counting the teeth on the bull gear. That should give you pulses close
enough together so you don't have to wait for a full rotation or two at
the slower speeds before you get a valid reading.

This VFD has an output for a tach, scaled either for a 1ma meter or some
strange 8 volt square wave signal. Your idea of a tach pickup on the
spindle is better as it's actual feedback and not what the drive merely
thinks the speed is based on it's output.


When I put a VFD and three phase motor in my 5418 I won't have
to do as much work. I'll keep the five-step pulleys for when I need
really slow operation at high torque, or really fast operation at low
torque, with most changes being done with the speed control pot.

That's one reason I went with a higher horsepower motor, and the thing I
think allot of people don't take into account when going the VFD route.
The motor being a basically constant torque device has much lower HP at
lower speeds. That is one advantage of belts or gears for speed reduction.

The pot is scaled to give 280 to 2000 RPM in straight gear, and back
gear divides that by 7, this basically replicates the original speed
ranges produced by the varidrive.


I presume that the project box was one of the die-cast zinc
ones? They can be quite useful -- even though Frys is a long way from
here. :-) (But -- there are local vendors who carry them.)

Yes, some sort of zinc alloy, actually a nice example of the diecasting
art, thin sections yet nice and straight, and a good surface finish as
well. The other impressive thing was the 6 cover screws were not self
tapping but tapped holes.

Fry's built a store in my area 2 or 3 years ago, it's about a 30 minute
drive but if we're in the area anyway I usually stop.

Regards
Paul


Enjoy,
DoN.



--
-----------------------------------------
It's a Linux world....well, it oughta be.
-----------------------------------------

"
giant snip -------------
I like the idea of putting a tach display into the project box
with the speed control pot -- and a panic button is not a bad thing to
add, too. I would drive the tach display from a magnetic impulse pickup
counting the teeth on the bull gear. That should give you pulses close
enough together so you don't have to wait for a full rotation or two at
the slower speeds before you get a valid reading.


for what it's worth, when I put a VFD on my 12 inch Logan/Powermatic, I
added an RPM display as well- I used a little (3/16 diameter) proximity
sensor that counted teeth on a convenient gear affixed to the spindle, then
set the display to divide the proper number to display in true RPM - works
great - I removed the large switche that had been the forward/reverse
switch, replaced it with a small toggle switch, and installed the RPM
display where the previous fwd/reverse switch had been.

This all seems pretty obvious to me, but if anyone really needs pictures and
stuff, ask and tell me what part you need photos of and I'll take some and
put them in the drop box



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 22:58:34 -0600, Paul wrote:

DoN. Nichols wrote:


I like the idea of putting a tach display into the project box
with the speed control pot --

This VFD has an output for a tach, scaled either for a 1ma meter or some
strange 8 volt square wave signal. Your idea of a tach pickup on the
spindle is better as it's actual feedback and not what the drive merely
thinks the speed is based on it's output.

From the pics, the VFD appears to be a Mitsubishi FR-A5xx. A nice
feature of these drives is that it's easy to remote the operator panel
with an RJ-45 network cable. The display can be scaled to display
machine speed, and if the drive is running in flux vector mode (which
you should definitely be doing since you want full torque at low
RPMs), the display is based on what the drive is sensing from the
motor, not simply output frequency. Of course you'd have to do the
mental math to account for the speed reduction when in backgear.

--
Ned Simmons

Wes wrote:
Since I like clausings,

http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd.txt ...

If you're like me and loose track of what the text was for what picture,
try this:
http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/5904_vfd.html

Bob

On 2008-01-06, Paul wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:

[ ... ]

Anyway -- it is now fixed.

Thanks DoN, it helps to know people in high places Actually the first
email had all the files but instead of .txt the name was _txt and it
never made it into the directory. I then sent a second email with just
the txt file, this time named .txt, it did show up but the formating was
hosed. The third email had the repaired file but it had the same name
as #2...but all is OK now.

:-)

And yes -- Steve does know that longer lines (over 256
characters, IIRC) get truncated when being extracted. Another reason
for folding the lines before sending. (Out of curiosity -- what editor
was it which did you in?

I suspect that your finish problems pre VFD were coming in part
from the somewhat frayed belt which you have replaced.

The belt I suspect was the much thicker belt that was between the motor
and countershaft on the variable cone pulleys, but it could have been
the final countershaft to spindle cogged timing belt.

O.K.

I like the idea of putting a tach display into the project box
with the speed control pot -- and a panic button is not a bad thing to
add, too. I would drive the tach display from a magnetic impulse pickup
counting the teeth on the bull gear. That should give you pulses close
enough together so you don't have to wait for a full rotation or two at
the slower speeds before you get a valid reading.

This VFD has an output for a tach, scaled either for a 1ma meter or some
strange 8 volt square wave signal. Your idea of a tach pickup on the
spindle is better as it's actual feedback and not what the drive merely
thinks the speed is based on it's output.

Obviously, I would need to sense the spindle in some way, since
I am retaining the step pulleys. The alternative would be a standard
meter movement and drawing multiple scales on it. :-)


When I put a VFD and three phase motor in my 5418 I won't have
to do as much work. I'll keep the five-step pulleys for when I need
really slow operation at high torque, or really fast operation at low
torque, with most changes being done with the speed control pot.

That's one reason I went with a higher horsepower motor, and the thing I
think allot of people don't take into account when going the VFD route.
The motor being a basically constant torque device has much lower HP at
lower speeds. That is one advantage of belts or gears for speed reduction.

Certainly I will be upping the HP -- from 1.5 HP to 2HP in the
lathe. Note that you would have an effective gain in HP even if you had
kept the same motor HP -- because those vari-speed pulleys do consume a
lot of extra HP. This is why the vari-speed J-heads on Bridgeports are
2HP, while the step pulleys are 1 HP or 1.5 HP.

The pot is scaled to give 280 to 2000 RPM in straight gear, and back
gear divides that by 7, this basically replicates the original speed
ranges produced by the varidrive.

O.K. This is reasonable -- but I'm looking forward to being
able to go even lower in spindle speed -- for when coarse threading to a
shoulder. :-) (Though my reaction time is pretty good so far when
doing that.)


I presume that the project box was one of the die-cast zinc
ones? They can be quite useful -- even though Frys is a long way from
here. :-) (But -- there are local vendors who carry them.)

Yes, some sort of zinc alloy, actually a nice example of the diecasting
art, thin sections yet nice and straight, and a good surface finish as
well. The other impressive thing was the 6 cover screws were not self
tapping but tapped holes.

Yep -- sounds like what I have used in various sizes.

Fry's built a store in my area 2 or 3 years ago, it's about a 30 minute
drive but if we're in the area anyway I usually stop.

I think of Fry's as being somewhere in California. Is that
where you are?

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2008-01-06, Paul wrote:

DoN. Nichols wrote:


[ ... ]


Anyway -- it is now fixed.

Thanks DoN, it helps to know people in high places Actually the first
email had all the files but instead of .txt the name was _txt and it
never made it into the directory. I then sent a second email with just
the txt file, this time named .txt, it did show up but the formating was
hosed. The third email had the repaired file but it had the same name
as #2...but all is OK now.


:-)

And yes -- Steve does know that longer lines (over 256
characters, IIRC) get truncated when being extracted. Another reason
for folding the lines before sending. (Out of curiosity -- what editor
was it which did you in?

KWrite 4.1, I usually use JOE but this time I was in GUI land and KWrite
was there. As I'd never used it since the last time I upgraded OS
versions it had never been configured. The default is line wrap off, I
guess that's a sane choice for an editor that will probably be used to
write code...i guess. The lines wrapped just fine in the editor on the
screen but I guess the file lacked cr/lfs


I suspect that your finish problems pre VFD were coming in part
from the somewhat frayed belt which you have replaced.

The belt I suspect was the much thicker belt that was between the motor
and countershaft on the variable cone pulleys, but it could have been
the final countershaft to spindle cogged timing belt.


O.K.


I like the idea of putting a tach display into the project box
with the speed control pot -- and a panic button is not a bad thing to
add, too. I would drive the tach display from a magnetic impulse pickup
counting the teeth on the bull gear. That should give you pulses close
enough together so you don't have to wait for a full rotation or two at
the slower speeds before you get a valid reading.

This VFD has an output for a tach, scaled either for a 1ma meter or some
strange 8 volt square wave signal. Your idea of a tach pickup on the
spindle is better as it's actual feedback and not what the drive merely
thinks the speed is based on it's output.


Obviously, I would need to sense the spindle in some way, since
I am retaining the step pulleys. The alternative would be a standard
meter movement and drawing multiple scales on it. :-)

I'd considered that, but it's not much more accurate than the cheesy
paper scale I made and installed in back of the speed knob. I plan to
check its accuracy with a handheld tach and then get a permanent one
engraved at the local sign place. Actually, I rarely worry about actual
rpm, I just set the speed to what 'seems right' but it is nice to have a
rough idea what that speed is. An actual speed display falls under the
'gee whiz' category for now. A braking resistor would seem more urgent.
By the way has anybody ohmed out an electric stove element lately?
Somebody here tossed that idea out in another thread.


When I put a VFD and three phase motor in my 5418 I won't have
to do as much work. I'll keep the five-step pulleys for when I need
really slow operation at high torque, or really fast operation at low
torque, with most changes being done with the speed control pot.

That's one reason I went with a higher horsepower motor, and the thing I
think allot of people don't take into account when going the VFD route.
The motor being a basically constant torque device has much lower HP at
lower speeds. That is one advantage of belts or gears for speed reduction.


Certainly I will be upping the HP -- from 1.5 HP to 2HP in the
lathe. Note that you would have an effective gain in HP even if you had
kept the same motor HP -- because those vari-speed pulleys do consume a
lot of extra HP. This is why the vari-speed J-heads on Bridgeports are
2HP, while the step pulleys are 1 HP or 1.5 HP.

True enough but getting rid of the vari-drive losses only partially
makes up for the lower power at lower RPM's with the VFD


The pot is scaled to give 280 to 2000 RPM in straight gear, and back
gear divides that by 7, this basically replicates the original speed
ranges produced by the varidrive.


O.K. This is reasonable -- but I'm looking forward to being
able to go even lower in spindle speed -- for when coarse threading to a
shoulder. :-) (Though my reaction time is pretty good so far when
doing that.)

I did have occasion to thread to a shoulder after the VFD install
(5/8-11, so there were plenty off passes) and was able to end up with
just one leadout groove only just slightly wider than the thread


I presume that the project box was one of the die-cast zinc
ones? They can be quite useful -- even though Frys is a long way from
here. :-) (But -- there are local vendors who carry them.)

Yes, some sort of zinc alloy, actually a nice example of the diecasting
art, thin sections yet nice and straight, and a good surface finish as
well. The other impressive thing was the 6 cover screws were not self
tapping but tapped holes.


Yep -- sounds like what I have used in various sizes.


Fry's built a store in my area 2 or 3 years ago, it's about a 30 minute
drive but if we're in the area anyway I usually stop.


I think of Fry's as being somewhere in California. Is that
where you are?

Actually I'm near Chicago, Fry's is expanding. They started in
California, the first one I was ever in was in Houston, and now this one
opened nearby a few years ago.

Regards
Paul


Enjoy,
DoN.



--
-----------------------------------------
It's a Linux world....well, it oughta be.
-----------------------------------------

Ned Simmons wrote:
On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 22:58:34 -0600, Paul wrote:


DoN. Nichols wrote:


I like the idea of putting a tach display into the project box
with the speed control pot --

This VFD has an output for a tach, scaled either for a 1ma meter or some
strange 8 volt square wave signal. Your idea of a tach pickup on the
spindle is better as it's actual feedback and not what the drive merely
thinks the speed is based on it's output.


From the pics, the VFD appears to be a Mitsubishi FR-A5xx. A nice
feature of these drives is that it's easy to remote the operator panel
with an RJ-45 network cable. The display can be scaled to display
machine speed, and if the drive is running in flux vector mode (which
you should definitely be doing since you want full torque at low
RPMs), the display is based on what the drive is sensing from the
motor, not simply output frequency. Of course you'd have to do the
mental math to account for the speed reduction when in backgear.

Hello Ned

It's a FR-A024, unfortunately no RJ-45 jack. There is a port on the
front that the programmer/operator interface plugs onto when mounted on
the drive, or a remote operator interface can use the port via an
oddball cable, but not both at the same time, not very handy. Also the
interconnect cable ends are large enough not to fit through 1/2 inch
sealtight. Of course none of these problems are show stoppers, they
just make things more difficult

I originally had the flux vector feature enabled and experienced obvious
speed hunting under load, I disabled that and one can hear the rpm drop
when taking a heavy cut but they hold steady. I'd like to employ the
vector feature but I think more experimenting may be in order.

Regards
Paul

--
-----------------------------------------
It's a Linux world....well, it oughta be.
-----------------------------------------

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Wes wrote:

Since I like clausings,

http://metalworking.com/dropbox/5904_vfd.txt ...


If you're like me and loose track of what the text was for what picture,
try this:
http://home.comcast.net/~bobengelhardt/5904_vfd.html

Bob

Bob

Good idea, and nicely done. One of these days I plan on getting around
to setting up a website to show off some other projects I've done, and
actually took the time to take a few pictures.

Ive had them in the past but every time my provider changes names I have
to go through the whole process again, I've just not set one up since
Comcast took over.

Regards
Paul


--
-----------------------------------------
It's a Linux world....well, it oughta be.
-----------------------------------------

On 2008-01-07, Paul wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2008-01-06, Paul wrote:

[ ... ]

And yes -- Steve does know that longer lines (over 256
characters, IIRC) get truncated when being extracted. Another reason
for folding the lines before sending. (Out of curiosity -- what editor
was it which did you in?

KWrite 4.1, I usually use JOE but this time I was in GUI land and KWrite
was there. As I'd never used it since the last time I upgraded OS
versions it had never been configured. The default is line wrap off, I
guess that's a sane choice for an editor that will probably be used to
write code...i guess. The lines wrapped just fine in the editor on the
screen but I guess the file lacked cr/lfs

O.K. I normally use jove -- unless I need to deal with
extra-long lines, in which case I switch to emacs which will accept
pathologically long lines with no complaints.

Jove defaults to no line wrap (again a programming editor) but
the .joverc file can be configured to look at the filename (or part of
it) and change settings. I have mine configured so if the file has an
extension of ".txt", or matches the file name patterns used by either my
newsreader or e-mail client it will switch on auto-fill mode. It also
turns on such things as the automatic acronym expansion (which I use to
correct my most common typos) and various other features.

[ ... ]

This VFD has an output for a tach, scaled either for a 1ma meter or some
strange 8 volt square wave signal. Your idea of a tach pickup on the
spindle is better as it's actual feedback and not what the drive merely
thinks the speed is based on it's output.


Obviously, I would need to sense the spindle in some way, since
I am retaining the step pulleys. The alternative would be a standard
meter movement and drawing multiple scales on it. :-)

I'd considered that, but it's not much more accurate than the cheesy
paper scale I made and installed in back of the speed knob.

Agreed.

I plan to
check its accuracy with a handheld tach and then get a permanent one
engraved at the local sign place.

Hmm ... have you never used photosensitive anodized aluminum
plates? Take black anodized aluminum plates, coat with a photoresist
which can handle strong alkalis (the old Kodak photoresists (KPR) were
good, the Kepco positive photoresists would dissolve in alkalis).
Anyway -- make a layout, make a negative from it (Kodalith Ortho is a
good material which gives plenty of contrast), expose to UV light
through the negative, develop (in trichlor for the KPR), then gently
scrub with cotton swabs soaked in strong NaOH solution, which will
dissolve the anodize and let the dye go, and you have very nice looking
panels -- complete with white areas which can accept serial number
stamps and the like.

These used to be available as kits from Allied electronics and
Newark -- and may still be available. I wish that I could remember the
name of the kits.

I know that Kodak has stopped making their photoresist, but I
think that others still make the same product, since it is commonly used
for making printed circuit boards. For even application, you need a
spinner. A hollow-shaft DC motor with speed control, a coupling to a
vacuum source on the bottom end, a flat chuck on the top with radial
grooves to spread the vacuum and an O-ring near the OD. You put some
photoresist on the center, then spin it up to spread it over the whole
upper surface, and send the excess flying off to the edge of the bowl.
Make sure that you add a vacuum sensor to prevent spinning up when the
vacuum is not present. Obviously, store-bought panels are better for
labels, but if you want to make a rigid anodized front panel with nice
markings (such as for some of the modular test equipment bays), it is
nice to be able to apply this to a panel already cut to size, punched,
and anodized so the anodize wraps to the edges. (And, you'll probably
want to apply more resist of some form to the edges after exposure and
developing.

Actually, I rarely worry about actual
rpm, I just set the speed to what 'seems right' but it is nice to have a
rough idea what that speed is.

Agreed.

An actual speed display falls under the
'gee whiz' category for now. A braking resistor would seem more urgent.

Certainly if you want to reverse frequently -- such as for
tapping with a bed turret and a releasing tap holder.

By the way has anybody ohmed out an electric stove element lately?
Somebody here tossed that idea out in another thread.

We use gas, so I can't check one here. Note that the value of
the resistance in such tends to vary with the temperature. It is much
lower when the element is at room temperature, and increases with
temperature -- just as a light bulb filament. Unless you are reversing
*very* frequently, the cold resistance is probably good enough to
measure. If you want the hot resistance -- best to just work from the
wattage of the element (and the voltage at which it gets that wattage),
or to measure both voltage and current when it is hot.

[ ... ]

Certainly I will be upping the HP -- from 1.5 HP to 2HP in the
lathe. Note that you would have an effective gain in HP even if you had
kept the same motor HP -- because those vari-speed pulleys do consume a
lot of extra HP. This is why the vari-speed J-heads on Bridgeports are
2HP, while the step pulleys are 1 HP or 1.5 HP.

True enough but getting rid of the vari-drive losses only partially
makes up for the lower power at lower RPM's with the VFD

Understood -- which is why I am retaining the step pulleys, so I
can get that serious torque when I need it.

The pot is scaled to give 280 to 2000 RPM in straight gear, and back
gear divides that by 7, this basically replicates the original speed
ranges produced by the varidrive.


O.K. This is reasonable -- but I'm looking forward to being
able to go even lower in spindle speed -- for when coarse threading to a
shoulder. :-) (Though my reaction time is pretty good so far when
doing that.)

I did have occasion to thread to a shoulder after the VFD install
(5/8-11, so there were plenty off passes) and was able to end up with
just one leadout groove only just slightly wider than the thread

I usually use the threading tool to make the runout groove -- to
full depth, and followed by manually moving it from side to side before
actually starting to cut the threads. The actual width depends on speed
and pitch.

[ ... ]

Fry's built a store in my area 2 or 3 years ago, it's about a 30 minute
drive but if we're in the area anyway I usually stop.


I think of Fry's as being somewhere in California. Is that
where you are?

Actually I'm near Chicago, Fry's is expanding. They started in
California, the first one I was ever in was in Houston, and now this one
opened nearby a few years ago.

Hmm ... this may give hope that there will be one here in the
East coast someday?

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN. Nichols wrote:
some misc. snippage

O.K. I normally use jove -- unless I need to deal with
extra-long lines, in which case I switch to emacs which will accept
pathologically long lines with no complaints.

Jove defaults to no line wrap (again a programming editor) but
the .joverc file can be configured to look at the filename (or part of
it) and change settings. I have mine configured so if the file has an
extension of ".txt", or matches the file name patterns used by either my
newsreader or e-mail client it will switch on auto-fill mode. It also
turns on such things as the automatic acronym expansion (which I use to
correct my most common typos) and various other features.

[ ... ]

I started using Joe back when I first started with Linux and Emacs took
forever to load just to make a simple edit to a config file, this was
back in '95 and Linux kernel 1.1.59, Later I was involved in something
called LRP (Linux Router Project) which was basically a small footprint
distro loaded to a RAM drive via 3.5 floppy, usually formatted larger
than 1.44 mgs, that setup a NATing router on something like a 486 class
machine, this was before all the usual suspects were making 'Internet
routers'. Joe's small footprint was especially helpfull then.

I believe that project is dormant at this time but even then things were
possible that you don't get with todays home class routers.




snip


Hmm ... have you never used photosensitive anodized aluminum
plates? Take black anodized aluminum plates, coat with a photoresist
which can handle strong alkalis (the old Kodak photoresists (KPR) were
good, the Kepco positive photoresists would dissolve in alkalis).
Anyway -- make a layout, make a negative from it (Kodalith Ortho is a
good material which gives plenty of contrast), expose to UV light
through the negative, develop (in trichlor for the KPR), then gently
scrub with cotton swabs soaked in strong NaOH solution, which will
dissolve the anodize and let the dye go, and you have very nice looking
panels -- complete with white areas which can accept serial number
stamps and the like.

These used to be available as kits from Allied electronics and
Newark -- and may still be available. I wish that I could remember the
name of the kits.

I know that Kodak has stopped making their photoresist, but I
think that others still make the same product, since it is commonly used
for making printed circuit boards. For even application, you need a
spinner. A hollow-shaft DC motor with speed control, a coupling to a
vacuum source on the bottom end, a flat chuck on the top with radial
grooves to spread the vacuum and an O-ring near the OD. You put some
photoresist on the center, then spin it up to spread it over the whole
upper surface, and send the excess flying off to the edge of the bowl.
Make sure that you add a vacuum sensor to prevent spinning up when the
vacuum is not present. Obviously, store-bought panels are better for
labels, but if you want to make a rigid anodized front panel with nice
markings (such as for some of the modular test equipment bays), it is
nice to be able to apply this to a panel already cut to size, punched,
and anodized so the anodize wraps to the edges. (And, you'll probably
want to apply more resist of some form to the edges after exposure and
developing.

That's not a bad idea, tooling up for just this small job might be
prohibitive, but now that I think of it there is a local printer that
used to do silkscreens and etched aluminum data plates of a drive
company I worked at long long ago. I should see if they still survive.

snip

Certainly if you want to reverse frequently -- such as for
tapping with a bed turret and a releasing tap holder.

Reversing is only part of it, one of the features on this lathe was a
mechanical clutch and brake actuated via a lever on the right side of
the apron (don't know if yours has that). I'd feel better with a
spindle that comes to a rapid stop when told to do so, not only for
impending crashes but for errant stringy chips interfacing with body
parts, or body parts interfering with spindles, chuck, work, etc



By the way has anybody ohmed out an electric stove element lately?
Somebody here tossed that idea out in another thread.


We use gas, so I can't check one here. Note that the value of
the resistance in such tends to vary with the temperature. It is much
lower when the element is at room temperature, and increases with
temperature -- just as a light bulb filament. Unless you are reversing
*very* frequently, the cold resistance is probably good enough to
measure. If you want the hot resistance -- best to just work from the
wattage of the element (and the voltage at which it gets that wattage),
or to measure both voltage and current when it is hot.

Gas stove here also, and I also figured cold resistance would be fine
considering the duty cycle and amount of power dumped into it, it's not
like its continuous are anything.


[ ... ]



snip


I usually use the threading tool to make the runout groove -- to
full depth, and followed by manually moving it from side to side before
actually starting to cut the threads. The actual width depends on speed
and pitch.

That's basically my MO as well, even if I kill the power, letting the
lathe coast to a stop and pulling the chuck the last half a turn by hand


[ ... ]


Fry's built a store in my area 2 or 3 years ago, it's about a 30 minute
drive but if we're in the area anyway I usually stop.


I think of Fry's as being somewhere in California. Is that
where you are?

Actually I'm near Chicago, Fry's is expanding. They started in
California, the first one I was ever in was in Houston, and now this one
opened nearby a few years ago.


Hmm ... this may give hope that there will be one here in the
East coast someday?

Enjoy,
DoN.

Fry's (at least the one here) has everything from electronic components
to computer parts to TV's, washers, dryers and everything else consumer
electronics. I don't know if I'd exactly call it Mecca, but definitely
worth having in the area.

Regards
Paul


--
-----------------------------------------
It's a Linux world....well, it oughta be.
-----------------------------------------

On 2008-01-08, Paul wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:
some misc. snippage

O.K. I normally use jove -- unless I need to deal with
extra-long lines, in which case I switch to emacs which will accept
pathologically long lines with no complaints.

[ ... ]

I started using Joe back when I first started with Linux and Emacs took
forever to load just to make a simple edit to a config file, this was
back in '95 and Linux kernel 1.1.59, Later I was involved in something
called LRP (Linux Router Project) which was basically a small footprint
distro loaded to a RAM drive via 3.5 floppy, usually formatted larger
than 1.44 mgs, that setup a NATing router on something like a 486 class
machine, this was before all the usual suspects were making 'Internet
routers'. Joe's small footprint was especially helpfull then.

O.K. Jove is also significantly smaller than emacs -- but with
a similar command set until you get into the lisp enhanced stuff in
emacs. On Solaris 10, here is what I find:

================================================== ====================
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root staff 275080 Mar 23 1999 /usr/local/bin/jove*
-r-xr-xr-x 2 root bin 6551000 Apr 27 2007 /opt/sfw/bin/emacs*
================================================== ====================

And jove is that much smaller while its executable is not
stripped, while that of emacs is stripped. :-)

================================================== ====================
/usr/local/bin/jove:
ELF 32-bit MSB executable SPARC Version 1,
dynamically linked, not stripped

/opt/sfw/bin/emacs:
ELF 32-bit MSB executable SPARC Version 1,
dynamically linked, stripped
================================================== ====================

I believe that project is dormant at this time but even then things were
possible that you don't get with todays home class routers.

Hmm ... I wonder how it compares with the stuff which you can do
with pf (Packet Filter) on OpenBSD when running it as a firewall/router?

[ ... ]

Hmm ... have you never used photosensitive anodized aluminum
plates? Take black anodized aluminum plates, coat with a photoresist

[ ... ]

That's not a bad idea, tooling up for just this small job might be
prohibitive, but now that I think of it there is a local printer that
used to do silkscreens and etched aluminum data plates of a drive
company I worked at long long ago. I should see if they still survive.

A lot of that tooling is only necessary if you are going to
photosensitize your own panels. If the kits are still available, that
will be a lot less resource intensive. You'll need:

1) A UV source for exposing (though you can get away with
photofloods and much longer exposure times.

2) An amber light bulb (bug-free type) for handling the
photosensitized plates. (They aren't *that* sensitive. :-)

3) Someplace fairly dark which will carry off the fumes of the
trichlor developer.

4) A glass tray for doing the etching in, since I'm not sure how
well plastic photo trays will deal with the NaOH, and they
*certainly* won't deal with the trichlor developer well at all.

5) Either a drawing package and a B&W laser printer for making the
negatives directly on mylar, or an enlarger and Kodalith Ortho
(or simply a 4x5 camera for making smaller data plates and
nameplates, as I have done at home in the past.

That should be enough as long as you are working with pre-coated
boards.

I even used it for making a property label for my concertina
case, calling it an:

AN/PNT 47T

(And -- if you have the standard for the AN numbers available,
that translates to:

P in first position: Man or pack portable

N in second: Sound in air

T in third: Generator

And the instrument was a 47-key treble, hence the last part,
which was stamped into a white (bare aluminum) area on the plate, so it
could be set up for anyone's instrument.

It also had a place for the owner's name to be stamped.

snip

Certainly if you want to reverse frequently -- such as for
tapping with a bed turret and a releasing tap holder.

Reversing is only part of it, one of the features on this lathe was a
mechanical clutch and brake actuated via a lever on the right side of
the apron (don't know if yours has that). I'd feel better with a
spindle that comes to a rapid stop when told to do so, not only for
impending crashes but for errant stringy chips interfacing with body
parts, or body parts interfering with spindles, chuck, work, etc

O.K. So far, I have the single-phase motor and have had to
learn to do without rapid spindle stops. :-) Some of these days, I'm
going to put the three-phase motor in, and wire the VFD to
start/stop/reverse from the drum switch -- plus a tiny holder below that
for the speed pot (rescued from an old Bridgeport BOSS-3 control pod. A
nice Allen-Bradley pot behind a knob and mount which looks like the
switches on the same. (Hmm ... I could use one of those switches to
tell it which pulley step the belt is on, if I need that for scaling the
tach. :-)



By the way has anybody ohmed out an electric stove element lately?
Somebody here tossed that idea out in another thread.


We use gas, so I can't check one here. Note that the value of
the resistance in such tends to vary with the temperature. It is much

[ ... ]

Gas stove here also, and I also figured cold resistance would be fine
considering the duty cycle and amount of power dumped into it, it's not
like its continuous are anything.

Agreed. But I just had to mention that. :-)


[ ... ]



snip


I usually use the threading tool to make the runout groove -- to
full depth, and followed by manually moving it from side to side before
actually starting to cut the threads. The actual width depends on speed
and pitch.

That's basically my MO as well, even if I kill the power, letting the
lathe coast to a stop and pulling the chuck the last half a turn by hand

O.K. I do it under power, and just pop out the half-nuts at the
right time. (At least until I have to do metric threads on that
machine. :-) *There* is where really slow operation and quick reversing
will be helpful.

[ ... ]

Actually I'm near Chicago, Fry's is expanding. They started in
California, the first one I was ever in was in Houston, and now this one
opened nearby a few years ago.


Hmm ... this may give hope that there will be one here in the
East coast someday?

[ ... ]

Fry's (at least the one here) has everything from electronic components
to computer parts to TV's, washers, dryers and everything else consumer
electronics. I don't know if I'd exactly call it Mecca, but definitely
worth having in the area.

O.K. I think that Fry's was one of the places which I hit while
visiting my sister in the California area -- though Weird Stuff was more
fun. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---