Hello all,

I need to engrave a degree scale on my evolving gizmo. One degree
increments will be fine. I can indicate the part on my RT, translate
the 1.25" or so to the scale location, and use the RT to locate the angles.

I am not clear on what to use to actually cut the lines. A quick search
reveals scribes, awls, pin vises, etc., but most of them look like they
are designed to be hand-held. I have scribe that I use for layout work,
but it would need to be "modified" (read destroyed) to fit on the
spindle of my mill-drill.

Any suggestions for the cutter and how to mount it in the spindle?

Thanks,

Bill

Any suggestions for the cutter and how to mount it in the spindle?

How about a "pin chuck" - Enco model number 891-5498? The material is
Al, so is steel good enough to engrave it, or do you still want carbide
or even diamond?

Bill

In article ,
Bill Schwab wrote:

Any suggestions for the cutter and how to mount it in the spindle?

If you don't need much life from it and are not going deep enough to
need flutes, grind a point on a broken drill and clamp it in the drill
chuck, or a broken end mill and use the end mill holder. You can true up
the point by grinding as it rotates.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Bill Schwab wrote:

Hello all,

I need to engrave a degree scale on my evolving gizmo. One degree
increments will be fine. I can indicate the part on my RT, translate
the 1.25" or so to the scale location, and use the RT to locate the angles.

I am not clear on what to use to actually cut the lines. A quick search
reveals scribes, awls, pin vises, etc., but most of them look like they
are designed to be hand-held. I have scribe that I use for layout work,
but it would need to be "modified" (read destroyed) to fit on the
spindle of my mill-drill.

Any suggestions for the cutter and how to mount it in the spindle?

Thanks,

Bill

http://www.2linc.com/

Bill Schwab writes:

Any suggestions for the cutter and how to mount it in the spindle?

The extra points sold for carbide scribers are only a few $ and should fit
directly into a drill chuck or collet.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?P...PARTPG=INLMK32

Any suggestions for the cutter and how to mount it in the spindle?

Get a Mcmaster # 1604T13 Diamond Drag bit. This is a 1/8" diameter
shank about an inch and a quarter long, with an embedded diamond in
the tip. Very commonly used for single line drag engraving (no rotary
action necessary). It is best used though with a spring loaded holder,
of which I know some have just bored a 1/8 hole in a piece of 3/8 or
larger drill rod and incorporated a stiff spring above the bit.

grummy

On Dec 4, 11:12 am, Bill Schwab wrote:
Hello all,

I need to engrave a degree scale on my evolving gizmo. One degree
increments will be fine. I can indicate the part on my RT, translate
the 1.25" or so to the scale location, and use the RT to locate the angles.

I am not clear on what to use to actually cut the lines. A quick search
reveals scribes, awls, pin vises, etc., but most of them look like they
are designed to be hand-held. I have scribe that I use for layout work,
but it would need to be "modified" (read destroyed) to fit on the
spindle of my mill-drill.

Any suggestions for the cutter and how to mount it in the spindle?

Thanks,

Bill

http://www.antaresinc.net/FactCutterGeometry.html

Or use a regular end mill 45 degrees down the side of the dial so it
makes a 90 degree vee cut.
If you have a sharp dovetail cutter you can almost duplicate the
engraver bit's lines.
A lathe threading bit in a flycutter should work but the end will
taper out excessively unless you cut all the way across the dial.
You might want to leave the OD large and take a cleanup cut afterwards
to remove the burrs.
If you polish it use a rigid backup block or a long strip of fine
sandpaper, not finger pressure.

The biggest problem I have with dials is losing count of which lines
should be longer while trying to remember the different ending points.

On 2007-12-04, Jim Wilkins wrote:

[ ... ]

The biggest problem I have with dials is losing count of which lines
should be longer while trying to remember the different ending points.

first cut them *all* to the length of the shortest lines. Then
reset the index head arms for the spacing of the next longest lines, and
work your way around making those longer. Then do the next longer
(which is probably all you need -- units, fives and tens). Then use
some very small number metal stamps to mark the longest lines with
values. (Nicer would be if you have a CNC mill with a CNC index head --
you could both automate the cutting of the lines, and engrave the number
markings as well.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Dec 4, 10:25 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2007-12-04, Jim Wilkins wrote:

[ ... ]

The biggest problem I have with dials is losing count of which lines
should be longer while trying to remember the different ending points.

first cut them *all* to the length of the shortest lines. Then
reset the index head arms for the spacing of the next longest lines, and
work your way around making those longer. Then do the next longer
(which is probably all you need -- units, fives and tens).

The issue I had with cutting lines twice was that the cutter didn't
retrace its previous cut exactly, probably because it wasn't moving
much metal the second time, so the lines were wider with a burr in the
bottom.

Then use
some very small number metal stamps to mark the longest lines with
values. (Nicer would be if you have a CNC mill with a CNC index head --
you could both automate the cutting of the lines, and engrave the number
markings as well.

Enjoy,
DoN.

CNC? My indexer is from a Brown & Sharpe Tool Grinder and looks like
it was made before 1900.

Jim Wilkins

Jim Wilkins wrote:

On Dec 4, 10:25 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2007-12-04, Jim Wilkins wrote:

[ ... ]

The biggest problem I have with dials is losing count of which lines
should be longer while trying to remember the different ending points.

first cut them *all* to the length of the shortest lines. Then
reset the index head arms for the spacing of the next longest lines, and
work your way around making those longer. Then do the next longer
(which is probably all you need -- units, fives and tens).

The issue I had with cutting lines twice was that the cutter didn't
retrace its previous cut exactly, probably because it wasn't moving
much metal the second time, so the lines were wider with a burr in the
bottom.

Then use
some very small number metal stamps to mark the longest lines with
values. (Nicer would be if you have a CNC mill with a CNC index head --
you could both automate the cutting of the lines, and engrave the number
markings as well.

Enjoy,
DoN.

CNC? My indexer is from a Brown & Sharpe Tool Grinder and looks like
it was made before 1900.

Jim Wilkins

The last project that I did similar to this, I used a dividing head on
my Bridgeport with an engraving cutter to do the degree lines accurately
and then moved to a CNC'd mini mill with a temporary stepper mounted as
a 4th axis to engrave the actual numbers where the relatively low
resolution of the 4th axis wasn't an issue. This was engraving on
anodized AL.

On 5 Dec 2007 03:25:24 GMT, DoN. Nichols wrote:

On 2007-12-04, Jim Wilkins wrote:

[ ... ]

The biggest problem I have with dials is losing count of which lines
should be longer while trying to remember the different ending points.

first cut them *all* to the length of the shortest lines. Then
reset the index head arms for the spacing of the next longest lines, and
work your way around making those longer. Then do the next longer
(which is probably all you need -- units, fives and tens). Then use
some very small number metal stamps to mark the longest lines with
values. (Nicer would be if you have a CNC mill with a CNC index head --
you could both automate the cutting of the lines, and engrave the number
markings as well.


You will have a pattern, right?

SSSSMSSSSLSSSSMSSSSL etcetera?

Just do the short ones first. Leave gaps for the medium and long ones,
then do the medium and long ones.

The largest number to which you need to count is 4 (in the example above).

On 2007-12-05, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Dec 4, 10:25 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

first cut them *all* to the length of the shortest lines. Then
reset the index head arms for the spacing of the next longest lines, and
work your way around making those longer. Then do the next longer
(which is probably all you need -- units, fives and tens).

The issue I had with cutting lines twice was that the cutter didn't
retrace its previous cut exactly, probably because it wasn't moving
much metal the second time, so the lines were wider with a burr in the
bottom.

Hmm ... make the longer lines slightly deeper on purpose, so
they are wider and stand out a bit more.

Or -- start out with the thing set up for the longest, mark them
with one color of paint pen, then the next shorter, (skipping the ones
already marked) and mark them with another color of pen, then finally
cut the shortest, skipping the marked lines, cut the next longer (going
for the one color) only, and then the longest (going for the first
color).

Then wash off the paint with an appropriate solvent.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 11:12:29 -0500, Bill Schwab
wrote:

Hello all,

I need to engrave a degree scale on my evolving gizmo. One degree
increments will be fine. I can indicate the part on my RT, translate
the 1.25" or so to the scale location, and use the RT to locate the angles.

I am not clear on what to use to actually cut the lines. A quick search
reveals scribes, awls, pin vises, etc., but most of them look like they
are designed to be hand-held. I have scribe that I use for layout work,
but it would need to be "modified" (read destroyed) to fit on the
spindle of my mill-drill.

Any suggestions for the cutter and how to mount it in the spindle?

Thanks,

Bill


Take a look at this article on the NEMES website.

http://neme-s.org/images/PDF%20Files...20Collars1.pdf

Sorry about the %'s DoN

Errol Groff

On 2007-12-05, Errol Groff wrote:
On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 11:12:29 -0500, Bill Schwab
wrote:

Hello all,

I need to engrave a degree scale on my evolving gizmo. One degree

[ ... ]

Any suggestions for the cutter and how to mount it in the spindle?

[ ... ]

Take a look at this article on the NEMES website.

http://neme-s.org/images/PDF%20Files...20Collars1.pdf

Sorry about the %'s DoN

Better the "%20"s than the spaces that they stand for. :-)

The engraving looks nice. Hopefully this will be of use to the
OP.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Dec 5, 4:23 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2007-12-05, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Dec 4, 10:25 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
first cut them *all* to the length of the shortest lines. Then
reset the index head arms for the spacing of the next longest lines, and
work your way around making those longer. Then do the next longer
(which is probably all you need -- units, fives and tens).
Or -- start out with the thing set up for the longest, mark them
with one color of paint pen, then the next shorter, (skipping the ones
already marked) and mark them with another color of pen, then finally
cut the shortest, skipping the marked lines, cut the next longer (going
for the one color) only, and then the longest (going for the first
color).
Then wash off the paint with an appropriate solvent.
DoN.

The simple final answer was to write down the ending points and look
at the dial to see which one to use next, instead of trying to
remember everything. I only mentioned this because it was an
unexpected problem.

Errol Groff wrote:
Take a look at this article on the NEMES website.

http://neme-s.org/images/PDF%20Files...20Collars1.pdf

Ooo - that's nice! I'm most impressed with the stamped numbers - the
alignment and consistency are like they were CNC'ed.

Bob

Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Dec 5, 4:23 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2007-12-05, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Dec 4, 10:25 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
first cut them *all* to the length of the shortest lines. Then
reset the index head arms for the spacing of the next longest lines, and
work your way around making those longer. Then do the next longer
(which is probably all you need -- units, fives and tens).
Or -- start out with the thing set up for the longest, mark them
with one color of paint pen, then the next shorter, (skipping the ones
already marked) and mark them with another color of pen, then finally
cut the shortest, skipping the marked lines, cut the next longer (going
for the one color) only, and then the longest (going for the first
color).
Then wash off the paint with an appropriate solvent.
DoN.

Interesting. Is the paint pen intended to be spindle mounted?


The simple final answer was to write down the ending points and look
at the dial to see which one to use next, instead of trying to
remember everything. I only mentioned this because it was an
unexpected problem.

No offense to anyone, I kinda like that idea

Bill

DoN,

first cut them *all* to the length of the shortest lines. Then
reset the index head arms for the spacing of the next longest lines, and
work your way around making those longer. Then do the next longer
(which is probably all you need -- units, fives and tens). Then use
some very small number metal stamps to mark the longest lines with
values. (Nicer would be if you have a CNC mill with a CNC index head --
you could both automate the cutting of the lines, and engrave the number
markings as well.

No CNC mills around here. In case it makes any difference, the
mechanism uses rings that fit into holes bored in plates; they allow the
"payload" to be manually rotated around its axis. The lines will be
radial on the surface of the plate, with one line on the corresponding ring.

I have an 8" RT which I will center under the spindle and then bump the
parts. It will be interesting setting the zero angle on the ring, as it
does not have many references. There is a notch that will probably
suffice. I had to re-mount the other ring[*] with some accuracy, and
was able to use an off-axis hole to zero the RT. I did so by
translating the mill table to where the hole would be at zero angle, and
then brought the hole under the spindle according to the drill bit that
made the hole - not perfect, but with you guys sworn to secrecyg, it
will be good enough. Consistent spacing is important to us; a small
shift in angle is not important (even unavoidable considering the entire
setup). Clearly the correct thing to do would be to do the subsequent
milling before removing the part from the table; easy enough to do if I
ever have to make another copy of the ring.
[*] the scale could go on that ring, though the one I have in mind is
the logical choice.

The bottom line is that an 8" RT will be in the horizontal position, and
the lines will be scribed on a plate clamped flat on it. The RT's dial
will do the indexing.

Does that change how you would scribe the lines?

Thanks!

Bill

DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2007-12-05, Errol Groff wrote:
Take a look at this article on the NEMES website.

http://neme-s.org/images/PDF%20Files...20Collars1.pdf

Sorry about the %'s DoN

Better the "%20"s than the spaces that they stand for. :-)

The engraving looks nice. Hopefully this will be of use to the
OP.

Seconded - the encoded spaces were no trouble at all.

Thanks!!

Bill

On Dec 9, 10:26 am, Bill Schwab wrote:
...
The bottom line is that an 8" RT will be in the horizontal position, and
the lines will be scribed on a plate clamped flat on it. The RT's dial
will do the indexing.

Does that change how you would scribe the lines?

Bill

I'd first try a half-round conical cutter, probably hand-ground from a
broken tap and finished to run centered with a Dremel on my easily-
cleaned 6" lathe. Spinning it in a drill while grinding works pretty
well too.

My RT can be adjusted for worm gear engagement but there is one extra-
tight area so I need to run it around once as a test. I've learned to
ALWAYS tighten the clamp before cutting.

Jim Wilkins

On 2007-12-09, Bill Schwab wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Dec 5, 4:23 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

Or -- start out with the thing set up for the longest, mark them
with one color of paint pen, then the next shorter, (skipping the ones
already marked) and mark them with another color of pen, then finally
cut the shortest, skipping the marked lines, cut the next longer (going
for the one color) only, and then the longest (going for the first
color).
Then wash off the paint with an appropriate solvent.

[ ... ]

Interesting. Is the paint pen intended to be spindle mounted?

No -- you simply keep the engraving cutter too high to touch the
workpiece, and draw lines using it as an indication. These are not
precise marks --just enough to tell you to not cut there yet.

The simple final answer was to write down the ending points and look
at the dial to see which one to use next, instead of trying to
remember everything. I only mentioned this because it was an
unexpected problem.

No offense to anyone, I kinda like that idea

That works -- if you are using a rotary table and a dial on the
hand crank. But if you are using an index head (which is what I would
be using, and which has no dials) you can set the arms so you move from
one arm to the next (perhaps with two or three full turns between arms
if you are marking angles greater than what a single turn of the crank
provides. In the case of my index head, which has a 40:1 worm, you get
nine degrees per full turn, so for the ten degree steps you would need
to go one full turn plus the distance marked by the arms, which select a
certain number of holes on a circle of N holes. Once you reach the new
position, you move the arms (which are locked together) so instead of
the trailing arm touching the index pin, the leading arm touches it, so
when you crank again, you again move to the trailing arm.

For the 5 degree and 1 degree motions, you will be less than a
full turn, making things even simpler.

Hmm ... You don't need to set the arms for the 10 degree setting
anyway when just marking -- you simply set for five degrees, mark the
starting position as blue, then crank five degrees out, mark in red,
crank again for blue and so on until you reach the starting point. Then
you set stops to limit the travel, lower the cutter to make contact with
the workpiece, and cut, then crank out two five degrees steps and cut
again. Once that reaches its start, you crank out five more degrees,
set the stops for the medium length lines, and cut, again going in ten
degree increments until you have completed the circle. Then you reset
the arms for one degree increments and the stops for the shortest line
length, and crank and cut on any stopping place which is not already
cut.

Then you wash off the paint with solvent and figure out how you
are going to engrave or stamp the numbers for the long lines.

The index head reduces the chances of mis-reading the dials, but
you need a special index plate to do things like 127 (for making metric
transposing gears).

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2007-12-09, Bill Schwab wrote:
DoN,

first cut them *all* to the length of the shortest lines. Then
reset the index head arms for the spacing of the next longest lines, and
work your way around making those longer. Then do the next longer
(which is probably all you need -- units, fives and tens). Then use
some very small number metal stamps to mark the longest lines with
values.

[ ... ]

In case it makes any difference, the
mechanism uses rings that fit into holes bored in plates; they allow the
"payload" to be manually rotated around its axis. The lines will be
radial on the surface of the plate, with one line on the corresponding ring.

O.K.

I have an 8" RT which I will center under the spindle and then bump the
parts. It will be interesting setting the zero angle on the ring, as it
does not have many references. There is a notch that will probably
suffice. I had to re-mount the other ring[*] with some accuracy, and
was able to use an off-axis hole to zero the RT. I did so by
translating the mill table to where the hole would be at zero angle, and
then brought the hole under the spindle according to the drill bit that
made the hole - not perfect, but with you guys sworn to secrecyg, it
will be good enough. Consistent spacing is important to us; a small
shift in angle is not important (even unavoidable considering the entire
setup). Clearly the correct thing to do would be to do the subsequent
milling before removing the part from the table; easy enough to do if I
ever have to make another copy of the ring.

[*] the scale could go on that ring, though the one I have in mind is
the logical choice.

The bottom line is that an 8" RT will be in the horizontal position, and
the lines will be scribed on a plate clamped flat on it. The RT's dial
will do the indexing.

Does that change how you would scribe the lines?

Not too much -- except that I might look for index plates and
arms to fit the rotary table instead of depending on the dials. The
rest I would do as I just described in the followup to a previous branch
of this thread. (I'll plead laziness for not typing all of that again. :-)

But your way will work too -- just a bit greater chance of
making an error in reading the dials.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN,

Does that change how you would scribe the lines?

Not too much -- except that I might look for index plates and
arms to fit the rotary table instead of depending on the dials. The
rest I would do as I just described in the followup to a previous branch
of this thread. (I'll plead laziness for not typing all of that again. :-)

But your way will work too -- just a bit greater chance of
making an error in reading the dials.

In partial reply, I have index plates for the table, but it looked to me
like something that was intended to be used in the vertical orientation
(axis parallel to the mill table)??? The truth was I needed the table,
recognized the potential value of an H/V, and the indexing setup was
cheap enough that I bought it figuring I'd use it some day. I have not
taken time to research exactly what I bought. I more or less get the
idea of index plates and at least some of why you recommend them here.
What is not clear is whether I can use them with the table horizontal,
which I _think_ is the correct way to scribe the lines in question.

More dumb questions to come

Thanks!

Bill

On 2007-12-10, Bill Schwab wrote:
DoN,

Does that change how you would scribe the lines?

Not too much -- except that I might look for index plates and
arms to fit the rotary table instead of depending on the dials. The
rest I would do as I just described in the followup to a previous branch
of this thread. (I'll plead laziness for not typing all of that again. :-)

[ ... ]

In partial reply, I have index plates for the table, but it looked to me
like something that was intended to be used in the vertical orientation
(axis parallel to the mill table)???

The most common use is in cutting gear teeth on an arbor between
the table and a tailstock, but there is no reason why you can't use the
plates and arms with the table in the horizontal orientation as well --
as long as it does not hit the table. And even then -- you could make a
riser block to avoid this problem.

The truth was I needed the table,
recognized the potential value of an H/V, and the indexing setup was
cheap enough that I bought it figuring I'd use it some day. I have not
taken time to research exactly what I bought. I more or less get the
idea of index plates and at least some of why you recommend them here.

I *think* that your table may be a 90:1 ratio, so you get four
degrees per rotation of the crank, and you can use any index plate which
offers a circle of holes which is a multiple of four, and probably the
smallest multiple of four would make the proper hole easier to hit.
Anyway -- five degrees would be one and one quarter rotation, one degree
would be 1/4 rotation, and ten degrees would be two and a half
rotations.

If your worm gear ratio in the table is different, then these
figures all change, of course.

What is not clear is whether I can use them with the table horizontal,
which I _think_ is the correct way to scribe the lines in question.

You should be able to. And yes -- horizontal is the way to go
if you are using a half-round Vee tool as suggested by someone else
yesterday. But you have other ways to do it, too. One way would be
with the edge of a dovetail cutter with the head tilted half the
included angle, in which case you would use a vertical setup so you
could move the cutter along one side of the plate which you are cutting
-- parallel to the center height.

In my case, I would be using a horizontal mill, and probably a
conventional milling cutter with a sharp V to cut the lines --though I
could come in from the side with the half-round Vee from above -- or
from above with the vertical adaptor in place. In any case, I have bed
stops with micrometer adjustment, and lever feed, so I can cut the
shortest lines first, adjust one stop back an appropriate distance, cut
the medium lines, and adjust it back again and cut the long lines.

More dumb questions to come

Keep asking. Others learn as well when you ask, and answering
the questions makes the process clearer in the minds of those who are
answering.

Enjoy,
DoN.

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