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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Engraving a degree scale
Hello all,
I need to engrave a degree scale on my evolving gizmo. One degree increments will be fine. I can indicate the part on my RT, translate the 1.25" or so to the scale location, and use the RT to locate the angles. I am not clear on what to use to actually cut the lines. A quick search reveals scribes, awls, pin vises, etc., but most of them look like they are designed to be hand-held. I have scribe that I use for layout work, but it would need to be "modified" (read destroyed) to fit on the spindle of my mill-drill. Any suggestions for the cutter and how to mount it in the spindle? Thanks, Bill |
#2
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Engraving a degree scale
Any suggestions for the cutter and how to mount it in the spindle?
How about a "pin chuck" - Enco model number 891-5498? The material is Al, so is steel good enough to engrave it, or do you still want carbide or even diamond? Bill |
#3
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Engraving a degree scale
In article ,
Bill Schwab wrote: Any suggestions for the cutter and how to mount it in the spindle? If you don't need much life from it and are not going deep enough to need flutes, grind a point on a broken drill and clamp it in the drill chuck, or a broken end mill and use the end mill holder. You can true up the point by grinding as it rotates. -- Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by |
#4
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Engraving a degree scale
Bill Schwab wrote:
Hello all, I need to engrave a degree scale on my evolving gizmo. One degree increments will be fine. I can indicate the part on my RT, translate the 1.25" or so to the scale location, and use the RT to locate the angles. I am not clear on what to use to actually cut the lines. A quick search reveals scribes, awls, pin vises, etc., but most of them look like they are designed to be hand-held. I have scribe that I use for layout work, but it would need to be "modified" (read destroyed) to fit on the spindle of my mill-drill. Any suggestions for the cutter and how to mount it in the spindle? Thanks, Bill http://www.2linc.com/ |
#5
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Engraving a degree scale
Bill Schwab writes:
Any suggestions for the cutter and how to mount it in the spindle? The extra points sold for carbide scribers are only a few $ and should fit directly into a drill chuck or collet. http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?P...PARTPG=INLMK32 |
#6
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Engraving a degree scale
Any suggestions for the cutter and how to mount it in the spindle?
Get a Mcmaster # 1604T13 Diamond Drag bit. This is a 1/8" diameter shank about an inch and a quarter long, with an embedded diamond in the tip. Very commonly used for single line drag engraving (no rotary action necessary). It is best used though with a spring loaded holder, of which I know some have just bored a 1/8 hole in a piece of 3/8 or larger drill rod and incorporated a stiff spring above the bit. grummy |
#7
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Engraving a degree scale
On Dec 4, 11:12 am, Bill Schwab wrote:
Hello all, I need to engrave a degree scale on my evolving gizmo. One degree increments will be fine. I can indicate the part on my RT, translate the 1.25" or so to the scale location, and use the RT to locate the angles. I am not clear on what to use to actually cut the lines. A quick search reveals scribes, awls, pin vises, etc., but most of them look like they are designed to be hand-held. I have scribe that I use for layout work, but it would need to be "modified" (read destroyed) to fit on the spindle of my mill-drill. Any suggestions for the cutter and how to mount it in the spindle? Thanks, Bill http://www.antaresinc.net/FactCutterGeometry.html Or use a regular end mill 45 degrees down the side of the dial so it makes a 90 degree vee cut. If you have a sharp dovetail cutter you can almost duplicate the engraver bit's lines. A lathe threading bit in a flycutter should work but the end will taper out excessively unless you cut all the way across the dial. You might want to leave the OD large and take a cleanup cut afterwards to remove the burrs. If you polish it use a rigid backup block or a long strip of fine sandpaper, not finger pressure. The biggest problem I have with dials is losing count of which lines should be longer while trying to remember the different ending points. |
#8
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Engraving a degree scale
On 2007-12-04, Jim Wilkins wrote:
[ ... ] The biggest problem I have with dials is losing count of which lines should be longer while trying to remember the different ending points. first cut them *all* to the length of the shortest lines. Then reset the index head arms for the spacing of the next longest lines, and work your way around making those longer. Then do the next longer (which is probably all you need -- units, fives and tens). Then use some very small number metal stamps to mark the longest lines with values. (Nicer would be if you have a CNC mill with a CNC index head -- you could both automate the cutting of the lines, and engrave the number markings as well. Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#9
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Engraving a degree scale
On Dec 4, 10:25 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2007-12-04, Jim Wilkins wrote: [ ... ] The biggest problem I have with dials is losing count of which lines should be longer while trying to remember the different ending points. first cut them *all* to the length of the shortest lines. Then reset the index head arms for the spacing of the next longest lines, and work your way around making those longer. Then do the next longer (which is probably all you need -- units, fives and tens). The issue I had with cutting lines twice was that the cutter didn't retrace its previous cut exactly, probably because it wasn't moving much metal the second time, so the lines were wider with a burr in the bottom. Then use some very small number metal stamps to mark the longest lines with values. (Nicer would be if you have a CNC mill with a CNC index head -- you could both automate the cutting of the lines, and engrave the number markings as well. Enjoy, DoN. CNC? My indexer is from a Brown & Sharpe Tool Grinder and looks like it was made before 1900. Jim Wilkins |
#10
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Engraving a degree scale
Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Dec 4, 10:25 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: On 2007-12-04, Jim Wilkins wrote: [ ... ] The biggest problem I have with dials is losing count of which lines should be longer while trying to remember the different ending points. first cut them *all* to the length of the shortest lines. Then reset the index head arms for the spacing of the next longest lines, and work your way around making those longer. Then do the next longer (which is probably all you need -- units, fives and tens). The issue I had with cutting lines twice was that the cutter didn't retrace its previous cut exactly, probably because it wasn't moving much metal the second time, so the lines were wider with a burr in the bottom. Then use some very small number metal stamps to mark the longest lines with values. (Nicer would be if you have a CNC mill with a CNC index head -- you could both automate the cutting of the lines, and engrave the number markings as well. Enjoy, DoN. CNC? My indexer is from a Brown & Sharpe Tool Grinder and looks like it was made before 1900. Jim Wilkins The last project that I did similar to this, I used a dividing head on my Bridgeport with an engraving cutter to do the degree lines accurately and then moved to a CNC'd mini mill with a temporary stepper mounted as a 4th axis to engrave the actual numbers where the relatively low resolution of the 4th axis wasn't an issue. This was engraving on anodized AL. |
#11
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Engraving a degree scale
On 5 Dec 2007 03:25:24 GMT, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2007-12-04, Jim Wilkins wrote: [ ... ] The biggest problem I have with dials is losing count of which lines should be longer while trying to remember the different ending points. first cut them *all* to the length of the shortest lines. Then reset the index head arms for the spacing of the next longest lines, and work your way around making those longer. Then do the next longer (which is probably all you need -- units, fives and tens). Then use some very small number metal stamps to mark the longest lines with values. (Nicer would be if you have a CNC mill with a CNC index head -- you could both automate the cutting of the lines, and engrave the number markings as well. You will have a pattern, right? SSSSMSSSSLSSSSMSSSSL etcetera? Just do the short ones first. Leave gaps for the medium and long ones, then do the medium and long ones. The largest number to which you need to count is 4 (in the example above). |
#12
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Engraving a degree scale
On 2007-12-05, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Dec 4, 10:25 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: [ ... ] first cut them *all* to the length of the shortest lines. Then reset the index head arms for the spacing of the next longest lines, and work your way around making those longer. Then do the next longer (which is probably all you need -- units, fives and tens). The issue I had with cutting lines twice was that the cutter didn't retrace its previous cut exactly, probably because it wasn't moving much metal the second time, so the lines were wider with a burr in the bottom. Hmm ... make the longer lines slightly deeper on purpose, so they are wider and stand out a bit more. Or -- start out with the thing set up for the longest, mark them with one color of paint pen, then the next shorter, (skipping the ones already marked) and mark them with another color of pen, then finally cut the shortest, skipping the marked lines, cut the next longer (going for the one color) only, and then the longest (going for the first color). Then wash off the paint with an appropriate solvent. Good Luck, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#13
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Engraving a degree scale
On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 11:12:29 -0500, Bill Schwab
wrote: Hello all, I need to engrave a degree scale on my evolving gizmo. One degree increments will be fine. I can indicate the part on my RT, translate the 1.25" or so to the scale location, and use the RT to locate the angles. I am not clear on what to use to actually cut the lines. A quick search reveals scribes, awls, pin vises, etc., but most of them look like they are designed to be hand-held. I have scribe that I use for layout work, but it would need to be "modified" (read destroyed) to fit on the spindle of my mill-drill. Any suggestions for the cutter and how to mount it in the spindle? Thanks, Bill Take a look at this article on the NEMES website. http://neme-s.org/images/PDF%20Files...20Collars1.pdf Sorry about the %'s DoN Errol Groff |
#14
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Engraving a degree scale
On 2007-12-05, Errol Groff wrote:
On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 11:12:29 -0500, Bill Schwab wrote: Hello all, I need to engrave a degree scale on my evolving gizmo. One degree [ ... ] Any suggestions for the cutter and how to mount it in the spindle? [ ... ] Take a look at this article on the NEMES website. http://neme-s.org/images/PDF%20Files...20Collars1.pdf Sorry about the %'s DoN Better the "%20"s than the spaces that they stand for. :-) The engraving looks nice. Hopefully this will be of use to the OP. Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#15
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Engraving a degree scale
On Dec 5, 4:23 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2007-12-05, Jim Wilkins wrote: On Dec 4, 10:25 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: first cut them *all* to the length of the shortest lines. Then reset the index head arms for the spacing of the next longest lines, and work your way around making those longer. Then do the next longer (which is probably all you need -- units, fives and tens). Or -- start out with the thing set up for the longest, mark them with one color of paint pen, then the next shorter, (skipping the ones already marked) and mark them with another color of pen, then finally cut the shortest, skipping the marked lines, cut the next longer (going for the one color) only, and then the longest (going for the first color). Then wash off the paint with an appropriate solvent. DoN. The simple final answer was to write down the ending points and look at the dial to see which one to use next, instead of trying to remember everything. I only mentioned this because it was an unexpected problem. |
#16
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Engraving a degree scale
Errol Groff wrote:
Take a look at this article on the NEMES website. http://neme-s.org/images/PDF%20Files...20Collars1.pdf Ooo - that's nice! I'm most impressed with the stamped numbers - the alignment and consistency are like they were CNC'ed. Bob |
#17
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Engraving a degree scale
Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Dec 5, 4:23 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: On 2007-12-05, Jim Wilkins wrote: On Dec 4, 10:25 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: first cut them *all* to the length of the shortest lines. Then reset the index head arms for the spacing of the next longest lines, and work your way around making those longer. Then do the next longer (which is probably all you need -- units, fives and tens). Or -- start out with the thing set up for the longest, mark them with one color of paint pen, then the next shorter, (skipping the ones already marked) and mark them with another color of pen, then finally cut the shortest, skipping the marked lines, cut the next longer (going for the one color) only, and then the longest (going for the first color). Then wash off the paint with an appropriate solvent. DoN. Interesting. Is the paint pen intended to be spindle mounted? The simple final answer was to write down the ending points and look at the dial to see which one to use next, instead of trying to remember everything. I only mentioned this because it was an unexpected problem. No offense to anyone, I kinda like that idea Bill |
#18
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Engraving a degree scale
DoN,
first cut them *all* to the length of the shortest lines. Then reset the index head arms for the spacing of the next longest lines, and work your way around making those longer. Then do the next longer (which is probably all you need -- units, fives and tens). Then use some very small number metal stamps to mark the longest lines with values. (Nicer would be if you have a CNC mill with a CNC index head -- you could both automate the cutting of the lines, and engrave the number markings as well. No CNC mills around here. In case it makes any difference, the mechanism uses rings that fit into holes bored in plates; they allow the "payload" to be manually rotated around its axis. The lines will be radial on the surface of the plate, with one line on the corresponding ring. I have an 8" RT which I will center under the spindle and then bump the parts. It will be interesting setting the zero angle on the ring, as it does not have many references. There is a notch that will probably suffice. I had to re-mount the other ring[*] with some accuracy, and was able to use an off-axis hole to zero the RT. I did so by translating the mill table to where the hole would be at zero angle, and then brought the hole under the spindle according to the drill bit that made the hole - not perfect, but with you guys sworn to secrecyg, it will be good enough. Consistent spacing is important to us; a small shift in angle is not important (even unavoidable considering the entire setup). Clearly the correct thing to do would be to do the subsequent milling before removing the part from the table; easy enough to do if I ever have to make another copy of the ring. [*] the scale could go on that ring, though the one I have in mind is the logical choice. The bottom line is that an 8" RT will be in the horizontal position, and the lines will be scribed on a plate clamped flat on it. The RT's dial will do the indexing. Does that change how you would scribe the lines? Thanks! Bill |
#19
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Engraving a degree scale
DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2007-12-05, Errol Groff wrote: Take a look at this article on the NEMES website. http://neme-s.org/images/PDF%20Files...20Collars1.pdf Sorry about the %'s DoN Better the "%20"s than the spaces that they stand for. :-) The engraving looks nice. Hopefully this will be of use to the OP. Seconded - the encoded spaces were no trouble at all. Thanks!! Bill |
#20
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Engraving a degree scale
On Dec 9, 10:26 am, Bill Schwab wrote:
... The bottom line is that an 8" RT will be in the horizontal position, and the lines will be scribed on a plate clamped flat on it. The RT's dial will do the indexing. Does that change how you would scribe the lines? Bill I'd first try a half-round conical cutter, probably hand-ground from a broken tap and finished to run centered with a Dremel on my easily- cleaned 6" lathe. Spinning it in a drill while grinding works pretty well too. My RT can be adjusted for worm gear engagement but there is one extra- tight area so I need to run it around once as a test. I've learned to ALWAYS tighten the clamp before cutting. Jim Wilkins |
#21
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Engraving a degree scale
On 2007-12-09, Bill Schwab wrote:
Jim Wilkins wrote: On Dec 5, 4:23 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote: [ ... ] Or -- start out with the thing set up for the longest, mark them with one color of paint pen, then the next shorter, (skipping the ones already marked) and mark them with another color of pen, then finally cut the shortest, skipping the marked lines, cut the next longer (going for the one color) only, and then the longest (going for the first color). Then wash off the paint with an appropriate solvent. [ ... ] Interesting. Is the paint pen intended to be spindle mounted? No -- you simply keep the engraving cutter too high to touch the workpiece, and draw lines using it as an indication. These are not precise marks --just enough to tell you to not cut there yet. The simple final answer was to write down the ending points and look at the dial to see which one to use next, instead of trying to remember everything. I only mentioned this because it was an unexpected problem. No offense to anyone, I kinda like that idea That works -- if you are using a rotary table and a dial on the hand crank. But if you are using an index head (which is what I would be using, and which has no dials) you can set the arms so you move from one arm to the next (perhaps with two or three full turns between arms if you are marking angles greater than what a single turn of the crank provides. In the case of my index head, which has a 40:1 worm, you get nine degrees per full turn, so for the ten degree steps you would need to go one full turn plus the distance marked by the arms, which select a certain number of holes on a circle of N holes. Once you reach the new position, you move the arms (which are locked together) so instead of the trailing arm touching the index pin, the leading arm touches it, so when you crank again, you again move to the trailing arm. For the 5 degree and 1 degree motions, you will be less than a full turn, making things even simpler. Hmm ... You don't need to set the arms for the 10 degree setting anyway when just marking -- you simply set for five degrees, mark the starting position as blue, then crank five degrees out, mark in red, crank again for blue and so on until you reach the starting point. Then you set stops to limit the travel, lower the cutter to make contact with the workpiece, and cut, then crank out two five degrees steps and cut again. Once that reaches its start, you crank out five more degrees, set the stops for the medium length lines, and cut, again going in ten degree increments until you have completed the circle. Then you reset the arms for one degree increments and the stops for the shortest line length, and crank and cut on any stopping place which is not already cut. Then you wash off the paint with solvent and figure out how you are going to engrave or stamp the numbers for the long lines. The index head reduces the chances of mis-reading the dials, but you need a special index plate to do things like 127 (for making metric transposing gears). Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#22
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Engraving a degree scale
On 2007-12-09, Bill Schwab wrote:
DoN, first cut them *all* to the length of the shortest lines. Then reset the index head arms for the spacing of the next longest lines, and work your way around making those longer. Then do the next longer (which is probably all you need -- units, fives and tens). Then use some very small number metal stamps to mark the longest lines with values. [ ... ] In case it makes any difference, the mechanism uses rings that fit into holes bored in plates; they allow the "payload" to be manually rotated around its axis. The lines will be radial on the surface of the plate, with one line on the corresponding ring. O.K. I have an 8" RT which I will center under the spindle and then bump the parts. It will be interesting setting the zero angle on the ring, as it does not have many references. There is a notch that will probably suffice. I had to re-mount the other ring[*] with some accuracy, and was able to use an off-axis hole to zero the RT. I did so by translating the mill table to where the hole would be at zero angle, and then brought the hole under the spindle according to the drill bit that made the hole - not perfect, but with you guys sworn to secrecyg, it will be good enough. Consistent spacing is important to us; a small shift in angle is not important (even unavoidable considering the entire setup). Clearly the correct thing to do would be to do the subsequent milling before removing the part from the table; easy enough to do if I ever have to make another copy of the ring. [*] the scale could go on that ring, though the one I have in mind is the logical choice. The bottom line is that an 8" RT will be in the horizontal position, and the lines will be scribed on a plate clamped flat on it. The RT's dial will do the indexing. Does that change how you would scribe the lines? Not too much -- except that I might look for index plates and arms to fit the rotary table instead of depending on the dials. The rest I would do as I just described in the followup to a previous branch of this thread. (I'll plead laziness for not typing all of that again. :-) But your way will work too -- just a bit greater chance of making an error in reading the dials. Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#23
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Engraving a degree scale
DoN,
Does that change how you would scribe the lines? Not too much -- except that I might look for index plates and arms to fit the rotary table instead of depending on the dials. The rest I would do as I just described in the followup to a previous branch of this thread. (I'll plead laziness for not typing all of that again. :-) But your way will work too -- just a bit greater chance of making an error in reading the dials. In partial reply, I have index plates for the table, but it looked to me like something that was intended to be used in the vertical orientation (axis parallel to the mill table)??? The truth was I needed the table, recognized the potential value of an H/V, and the indexing setup was cheap enough that I bought it figuring I'd use it some day. I have not taken time to research exactly what I bought. I more or less get the idea of index plates and at least some of why you recommend them here. What is not clear is whether I can use them with the table horizontal, which I _think_ is the correct way to scribe the lines in question. More dumb questions to come Thanks! Bill |
#24
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Engraving a degree scale
On 2007-12-10, Bill Schwab wrote:
DoN, Does that change how you would scribe the lines? Not too much -- except that I might look for index plates and arms to fit the rotary table instead of depending on the dials. The rest I would do as I just described in the followup to a previous branch of this thread. (I'll plead laziness for not typing all of that again. :-) [ ... ] In partial reply, I have index plates for the table, but it looked to me like something that was intended to be used in the vertical orientation (axis parallel to the mill table)??? The most common use is in cutting gear teeth on an arbor between the table and a tailstock, but there is no reason why you can't use the plates and arms with the table in the horizontal orientation as well -- as long as it does not hit the table. And even then -- you could make a riser block to avoid this problem. The truth was I needed the table, recognized the potential value of an H/V, and the indexing setup was cheap enough that I bought it figuring I'd use it some day. I have not taken time to research exactly what I bought. I more or less get the idea of index plates and at least some of why you recommend them here. I *think* that your table may be a 90:1 ratio, so you get four degrees per rotation of the crank, and you can use any index plate which offers a circle of holes which is a multiple of four, and probably the smallest multiple of four would make the proper hole easier to hit. Anyway -- five degrees would be one and one quarter rotation, one degree would be 1/4 rotation, and ten degrees would be two and a half rotations. If your worm gear ratio in the table is different, then these figures all change, of course. What is not clear is whether I can use them with the table horizontal, which I _think_ is the correct way to scribe the lines in question. You should be able to. And yes -- horizontal is the way to go if you are using a half-round Vee tool as suggested by someone else yesterday. But you have other ways to do it, too. One way would be with the edge of a dovetail cutter with the head tilted half the included angle, in which case you would use a vertical setup so you could move the cutter along one side of the plate which you are cutting -- parallel to the center height. In my case, I would be using a horizontal mill, and probably a conventional milling cutter with a sharp V to cut the lines --though I could come in from the side with the half-round Vee from above -- or from above with the vertical adaptor in place. In any case, I have bed stops with micrometer adjustment, and lever feed, so I can cut the shortest lines first, adjust one stop back an appropriate distance, cut the medium lines, and adjust it back again and cut the long lines. More dumb questions to come Keep asking. Others learn as well when you ask, and answering the questions makes the process clearer in the minds of those who are answering. Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
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