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Default How to paint dials on mill?

The dials are etched, and are .200" per turn.
I can't read them without magnification and an extra lamp.
I would like to make them black down in the grooves and white on top.
How is that done?
TIA
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Clark Magnuson wrote:
The dials are etched, and are .200" per turn.
I can't read them without magnification and an extra lamp.
I would like to make them black down in the grooves and white on top.
How is that done?
TIA


If there is any depth to them, paint and either a fast wipe with a
solvent dampened cloth, or sandpaper on a backing block.

You can also get black wax crayons for filling in the markings. Rub
in, wipe with a dry cloth. Repeat as required.

Consider springing for new dials,. They are availablefor the
Bridgeport style machines, and adaptable to others.

Best solution, though not the cheap one, DRO! On a mill, put 3 axiis
on, and forget about the quill, or put one of the cheapo digital
micrometer type units on the quill.

Cheers
Trevor Jones


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Another solution is to use a lot more light.

i
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LacquerStik Fill-in Paint. Comes in Black or White. Sort of like a
crayon in a cardboard tube. I think I got mine from MSC. You rub it
into the etched marks, let it harden a little, then wipe off the surface
with a hard cloth so the fibers don't get into the marks and pull the
paint out.

Good luck making them white on top. I'd settle for just getting the
black into the grooves.

Pete Stanaitis
-----------------------------

Clark Magnuson wrote:

The dials are etched, and are .200" per turn.
I can't read them without magnification and an extra lamp.
I would like to make them black down in the grooves and white on top.
How is that done?
TIA

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On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:06:16 -0600, spaco wrote:

LacquerStik Fill-in Paint. Comes in Black or White. Sort of like a
crayon in a cardboard tube. I think I got mine from MSC. You rub it
into the etched marks, let it harden a little, then wipe off the surface
with a hard cloth so the fibers don't get into the marks and pull the
paint out.

Good luck making them white on top. I'd settle for just getting the
black into the grooves.


Paint white.

Let dry.

Scratch white paint out of grooves.

Apply lacquerstick.


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On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:46:27 -0800, Clark Magnuson
wrote:

The dials are etched, and are .200" per turn.
I can't read them without magnification and an extra lamp.
I would like to make them black down in the grooves and white on top.
How is that done?
TIA


Sometimes you can clean them well (slots, hopefully they are
recessed and not just painted on) and darken them with a
fine tip felt marker. Color of your choice.

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
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Trevor Jones wrote:

Best solution, though not the cheap one, DRO! On a mill, put 3 axiis
on, and forget about the quill, or put one of the cheapo digital
micrometer type units on the quill.


I prefer the dro though I did scotch brite the wheels and rub in lacquer
stick from McMaster for my uncle who will not use the DRO.

Wes
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On Nov 27, 1:28 am, Trevor Jones wrote:


Best solution, though not the cheap one, DRO! On a mill, put 3 axiis
on, and forget about the quill, or put one of the cheapo digital
micrometer type units on the quill.

Cheers
Trevor Jones



I agree. A DRO gives you so much extra capability. The investment
will pay itself off in a very short time. Your productivity will
increase, aswell as your accuracy. Setup times will come down
aswell. If you go this way, get yourself an edge finder also, no more
witness cuts required.

Cheers, Dom.
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On Nov 26, 9:46 am, Clark Magnuson wrote:
The dials are etched, and are .200" per turn.
I can't read them without magnification and an extra lamp.
I would like to make them black down in the grooves and white on top.
How is that done?
TIA


How is it done? Well, Hardinge use a white plastic for the dial,
which is engraved and then filled with black. If you want to make
entirely new dials, you can do it their way.

If you want to use your existing dials, I can't imagine how you might
get them white and then black. You might try some type of plating,
such as satin chrome or even copper, followed by a paint stick in the
grooves. Maybe the satin chrome will give you the contrast you want.

John Martin
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"Wes" wrote in message
...
Trevor Jones wrote:

Best solution, though not the cheap one, DRO! On a mill, put 3 axiis
on, and forget about the quill, or put one of the cheapo digital
micrometer type units on the quill.


I prefer the dro though I did scotch brite the wheels and rub in lacquer
stick from McMaster for my uncle who will not use the DRO.

Wes


"will not use the DRO."????

Why not? Is it against his religion?

I'm scratching my head trying to figure this one out and I've got nothing.

Mike




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The Davenport's wrote:
"Wes" wrote in message
...

Trevor Jones wrote:


Best solution, though not the cheap one, DRO! On a mill, put 3 axiis
on, and forget about the quill, or put one of the cheapo digital
micrometer type units on the quill.

I prefer the dro though I did scotch brite the wheels and rub in lacquer
stick from McMaster for my uncle who will not use the DRO.

Wes


"will not use the DRO."????

Why not? Is it against his religion?

I'm scratching my head trying to figure this one out and I've got nothing.

Mike



I knew a professional machinist, older school, he specialised in gear
shaping, splines, and keyways, but thats not really important. He didn't
have a DRO on any of his machines. He had various mills, lathes, and
gear shapers. I knew him through my neighbours and one year when he was
over at their place he came to look at my BP with DRO. He checked the
dials against the DRO readout, spot on. I don't think he trusted the new
electronic stuff though, which is a shame as it would probably have
improved his output by quite a bit.
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On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:46:27 -0800, Clark Magnuson
wrote:

The dials are etched, and are .200" per turn.
I can't read them without magnification and an extra lamp.
I would like to make them black down in the grooves and white on top.
How is that done?
TIA


Hey Clark,

Etched!?!? I mean really etched?? Like with a chemical or a laser??
You've got a problem.

For scribed marks with stamped digits, as most dials are, others have
suggestions, except I didn't read " remove, clean really well, run a
sharp pointy thing in each line and digit to remove old paint, clean
again in some good degreaser, let dry well, spray with black paint".
After it is really good and dry, crocus cloth the surface off, leaving
all the scribed lines and stamped digits filled.

One thing that is quite easy to do for a short fix is to use any CAD
program to make a long slip of paper printout that is surprisingly
accurate with a bit of fiddling. For instance, my Bridgeport has
3-1/4" dial wheels. That gives a circumference of 10.2102, divided
into the 200 required lines gives a line every .05105 inches. You can
either get fancy and "array" the lines, or just plow through making
them the line length you want for each thou, five thou, and ten thou.
Add numbers to suit, and plot or print that out and you can simply
tape to the dial with clear Scotch tape. It's cheap to try, and works
quite well if you use lacquer or decoupage glue to fasten it instead
of the Scotch tape. Easy to replace too, and you CAN get fancy and
use some sort of colour coding.

I just took fifteen minutes and did that in Autocad, printed out on a
five year-old inkjet. (Your skills may take less time.) Spacing was
good, but I'd need to work on the "text" a bit. But it sure is easy
to see !! And I can try different ways of aligning the "text" to suit
my preferences too !

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

ps.....This same sort of CAD and paper thing works very well for dial
faces to your liking on pressure gauges and meters, etc., too.

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Default How to paint dials on mill?

The dials are etched, and are .200" per turn.
I can't read them without magnification and an extra lamp.
I would like to make them black down in the grooves and white on top.


Another option, if you'd rather just throw money at the problem:
http://www.sherline.com/ezread.htm
--Glenn Lyford
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"The Davenport's" wrote:

"will not use the DRO."????

Why not? Is it against his religion?


He is a Luddite.
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"The Davenport's" wrote in message
...
"Wes" wrote in message
...
Trevor Jones wrote:

Best solution, though not the cheap one, DRO! On a mill, put 3 axiis
on, and forget about the quill, or put one of the cheapo digital
micrometer type units on the quill.


I prefer the dro though I did scotch brite the wheels and rub in lacquer
stick from McMaster for my uncle who will not use the DRO.

Wes


"will not use the DRO."????

Why not? Is it against his religion?

I'm scratching my head trying to figure this one out and I've got nothing.

Mike


I can't speak for him, nor for his religion------but I, too, don't use a
DRO, Never have, and likely never will.

I was trained on manual machines, and made my living with them until I
closed the doors on my commercial shop back in '83. I don't use a DRO
because I can run machines without one-----and prefer to keep those skills
sharp. I can still split thousandths reliably, and my dial is coarse, .400"
off the diameter per revolution. Nice part about this is I can keep
working should the DRO die, which many would find challenging. It takes
considerable experience to use dials reliably. Key word is "reliably".
Most folks know how to use dials, they just screw up a lot.

Harold




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First you would paint the dial with KHRILON gloss lac. base spray
paint ;;; spreay bomb. Let it dry for two days. Then spray the end of
a old sock with a RUSOLIUM ... OIL BAISED spray bomb and wipe it on
the dial untill just the increments held the black paint and the white
was clean.

Q - tips can be of a help.

Steve E.


On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:46:27 -0800, Clark Magnuson
wrote:

The dials are etched, and are .200" per turn.
I can't read them without magnification and an extra lamp.
I would like to make them black down in the grooves and white on top.
How is that done?
TIA

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"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:

I can't speak for him, nor for his religion------but I, too, don't use a
DRO, Never have, and likely never will.

I was trained on manual machines, and made my living with them until I
closed the doors on my commercial shop back in '83. I don't use a DRO
because I can run machines without one-----and prefer to keep those skills
sharp. I can still split thousandths reliably, and my dial is coarse, .400"
off the diameter per revolution. Nice part about this is I can keep
working should the DRO die, which many would find challenging.



Uncle used dials all his life too. He can see how a DRO could be useful but
at this point in life why bother playing with something that might bite him
in the butt.

I can work either way though I'm more likely to blue and scribe lines when
using dials to keep me honest.

Most people want a dro on a mill but get along fine w/o one on a lathe. I
don't see surface grinders with them either. The idea of fitting a DRO to
the surface grinder is interesting though.

Since you did a lot of grinding, when you re-dressed a wheel, how did you
rapidly pick up on where you left off and keep track of how far you were
from where you wanted to be?

On our ID/OD grinders, the wheels are sent periodically to the diamond
dresser by a certain amount further than the last time. The machine now
knows the reduction in diameter of the wheels and creates new offset data
and goes back where it left off.

Wes

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"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:

I can't speak for him, nor for his religion------but I, too, don't use a
DRO, Never have, and likely never will.

I was trained on manual machines, and made my living with them until I
closed the doors on my commercial shop back in '83. I don't use a DRO
because I can run machines without one-----and prefer to keep those skills
sharp. I can still split thousandths reliably, and my dial is coarse,
.400"
off the diameter per revolution. Nice part about this is I can keep
working should the DRO die, which many would find challenging.



Uncle used dials all his life too. He can see how a DRO could be useful
but
at this point in life why bother playing with something that might bite
him
in the butt.


Considering my lack of electronics prowess, I tend to see it much like that.
Besides, I get great pleasure from being able to work without one, although
I acknowledge that many things would happen faster with one. I am a
dinosaur in today's manufacturing world, that I understand all too well, so
I look at my self as one restoring a vintage car---------make it as good as
you can----but keep it original. You have to work with someone with my
mindset to fully understand----it's not just what we do, it's how we do it,
and what we are. :-)


I can work either way though I'm more likely to blue and scribe lines when
using dials to keep me honest.


I use my ever present 6" (or larger----I have them up to 24") scale, and
rarely, if ever, make a layout.


Most people want a dro on a mill but get along fine w/o one on a lathe. I
don't see surface grinders with them either. The idea of fitting a DRO to
the surface grinder is interesting though.


My experience in grinding dictates that a DRO would be unlikely to be
useful----but a great deal depends on the nature of the work at hand.
And--don't lose sight of the fact that I choose not to use them. My
comments are flavored heavily by my personal choices. YMMV.


Since you did a lot of grinding, when you re-dressed a wheel, how did you
rapidly pick up on where you left off and keep track of how far you were
from where you wanted to be?


Pick up and measure, with clear coolant and grease pencils being the methods
of choice.

When operating grinders without CNC controls, it's important that the
coolant be transparent. I alluded to this in the recent thread in which
soluble oil was included in the conversation. Heavy, clouded coolants make
proper grinding very difficult.

It stands to reason that every type machine will present its own set of
problems, but touching off was pretty much the acceptable practice,
including surface and centerless grinding. In a centerless, there's no
doubt when you have intimate contact, for the part will feed through the
machine, and won't even change size, assuming all you've done is pick up.

Surfaces that are being ground, particularly on cylindrical grinding, both
ID and OD surfaces, are marked with a grease pencil, then the wheel is
carefully closed on the part. When the grease starts to smear, you are very
near the surface of the part. Careful observation as tenths are removed
(very easy to do on grinders, unlike a lathe or mill), one watches until the
color is gone. At that point you may well have picked up without altering
the surface, although that isn't necessarily the case. Once a surface has
been picked up, the part is measured, and one works accordingly. It's
all up to the operator-----and many make lousy grinders. It's a game of
practiced skill and patience, often not a desirable task. It takes special
people to be successful.

The method I described can be very useful. While the pick feed was very
reliable on the grinders I operated, there are times when you prefer to not
remove a tenth. We had air gauging for one of the products we ground, which
had a narrow tolerance of +.0002", - .0000". I'd often find myself
hovering at the low end, only by a few millionths. Not wishing to risk
the remote possibility of going oversized, it wasn't uncommon to grease the
bore, start the table stroking, and observe the grease film. Because the
wheel had entered a hole that had been previously ground, the wheel would
pick up the precise location. After carefully observing the grease film,
which by now would have been virtually eliminated, one placed a finger on
the wheel head, and applied the slightest amount of pressure and held
steady. When the color was gone, the hole would be enlarged by a few
millionths. Try that on your trusty old Southbend lathe! :-)



On our ID/OD grinders, the wheels are sent periodically to the diamond
dresser by a certain amount further than the last time. The machine now
knows the reduction in diameter of the wheels and creates new offset data
and goes back where it left off.

Wes


While I respect those that have CNC knowledge, they are becoming cripples in
a sense. No problem in the scheme of things, for I gather the majority of
machines are intended to be run by numerical control solely------but skills
that are necessary to run manual machines are not being taught-- or
exercised--so the grinder of today, who may well be exceedingly skilled and
talented, may not have the skills necessary to operate manual machines.
That takes us back to working with a DRO------or not. :-)

Harold


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Brian Lawson wrote:


Hey Clark,

Etched!?!? I mean really etched??
For scribed marks


Yeah, I should have written "scribed".
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Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
Considering my lack of electronics prowess, I tend to see it much like that.
Besides, I get great pleasure from being able to work without one, although
I acknowledge that many things would happen faster with one. I am a
dinosaur in today's manufacturing world, that I understand all too well, so
I look at my self as one restoring a vintage car---------make it as good as
you can----but keep it original. You have to work with someone with my
mindset to fully understand----it's not just what we do, it's how we do it,
and what we are. :-)


Then there are those of us who are just too cheap to buy a DRO I
freely admit there are times when it would be helpful, the most recent
being a small stepped part on an RT - more clamps than work visible, so
there was not much in the way of a clear path for a scale. For most
things that I do, it is easy to slap a scale on the work and use the
dials to refine positions.

For windows, a DRO would save some time. I mark the corners with a
30-50 thou plunge, which is the worst of it (travel time mosly).
Working out the backlash-affected dial readings does not take long.

I can see why someone cranking out large numbers of parts on a daily
basis would want one. In my case, I'd rather direct the money to
another machine some day.



I can work either way though I'm more likely to blue and scribe lines when
using dials to keep me honest.


I use my ever present 6" (or larger----I have them up to 24") scale, and
rarely, if ever, make a layout.


I use layout fluid for rough cutting, which I mostly do on a bandsaw.
The time it takes to do the layout appears to be more than repaid in
less time on the mill - I think. I tend not to make layouts beyond
that, because it would usually be an extra step. I either fly-cut to
thickness (kinda tough on the layout fluid left over from roughing), or
am too chicken to clean rough cuts to the layout. As soon as I hit
clean metal, I stop and begin cleaning the other side. The result is
that my rough layout is always shifted just a little, so any further
layout would be shifted too.

Every so often a layout survives long enough to be useful in approaching
final dimensions, and they are indeed helpful.

Bill



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I can't speak for him, nor for his religion------but I, too, don't use a
DRO, Never have, and likely never will.


Nice part about this is I can keep working should the DRO die, which
many would find challenging. It takes considerable experience to use
dials reliably.


I can too, but the DRO saves time. I could drive nails with a rock, but a
hammer works better.
--
--
Stupendous Man
Defender of Liberty, Advocate of Justice


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"Stupendous Man" wrote in message
...
I can't speak for him, nor for his religion------but I, too, don't use a
DRO, Never have, and likely never will.


Nice part about this is I can keep working should the DRO die, which
many would find challenging. It takes considerable experience to use
dials reliably.


I can too, but the DRO saves time. I could drive nails with a rock, but a
hammer works better.


Never argued that point. The question is, can you work comfortably with
the rock? I can. I'm damned proud of that skill, which came at great
expense.

In order for any of this to make sense, you must work along side someone
that has my type of training. You'll come to realize that a DRO isn't a
necessity-----it's a luxury that can be done without. YMMV.

If you think your DRO will substitute for my practical experience, you're in
for one hell of a lumpy ride. I've had the best challenge me on machines.
They don't often fair well. You have to understand that those of us that
worked without such luxuries learned to work well without them.

Harold


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Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Stupendous Man" wrote in message
...

I can't speak for him, nor for his religion------but I, too, don't use a
DRO, Never have, and likely never will.


Nice part about this is I can keep working should the DRO die, which
many would find challenging. It takes considerable experience to use
dials reliably.


I can too, but the DRO saves time. I could drive nails with a rock, but a
hammer works better.



Never argued that point. The question is, can you work comfortably with
the rock? I can. I'm damned proud of that skill, which came at great
expense.

In order for any of this to make sense, you must work along side someone
that has my type of training. You'll come to realize that a DRO isn't a
necessity-----it's a luxury that can be done without. YMMV.

If you think your DRO will substitute for my practical experience, you're in
for one hell of a lumpy ride. I've had the best challenge me on machines.
They don't often fair well. You have to understand that those of us that
worked without such luxuries learned to work well without them.

Harold


Heck, Harold,

The dials on the machine are a luxury that can be done without. There
were an awful lot of lathes that did not have them at all, that made
parts purely on the skill and experience of their operators, using
comparative measuring equipment,and by fit and feel.

That it can be done that way, is by no means an endorsment that it can
ONLY be done that way.

I rather like the example you gave of using thumb pressure to control
the grinder cut for fine finishing passes. I have done the same on the
lathe, though not in order to get to as fine a limit, and demonstrated
that simply pushing on the carriage of the lathe, will make a difference
in the cut, as will leaning on the machine while it takes a long slow,
and fine pass.

I have read that they has accurately measured the tidal influences in
a teacup sitting on a table. Shows that if you are picky enough, and
have measuring capability, you can account for a great many things, that
each have their influence on the final product.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

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I have read that they has accurately measured the tidal influences in a
teacup sitting on a table. Shows that if you are picky enough, and have
measuring capability, you can account for a great many things, that each
have their influence on the final product.


I think that its possible you could read the heart rate and any conversation
of a lathe operator from the tool marks, much like an Edison Grammaphone.
--
--
Stupendous Man
Defender of Liberty, Advocate of Justice


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"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
news:xbe3j.33068$Zn.12644@edtnps90...
snip-----.

That it can be done that way, is by no means an endorsment that it can
ONLY be done that way.


I didn't imply that. That is in your imagination. I simply stated that I
prefer working that way, and included, somewhere ":YMMV".

Harold




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Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
news:xbe3j.33068$Zn.12644@edtnps90...
snip-----.
That it can be done that way, is by no means an endorsment that it can
ONLY be done that way.


I didn't imply that. That is in your imagination. I simply stated that I
prefer working that way, and included, somewhere ":YMMV".

Harold


Gang, if anything, the "it can only be done that way" crowd is on the
DRO side of the debate. I am grateful to Harold and others for taking
the time to explain the manual approach to me. All the fuss over
backlash (which is pretty much reflexive to me now) paid off recently
when it came time to align an RT with the spindle and then cope with
angles on the RT.

Just my 2 cents.

Bill
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Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
news:xbe3j.33068$Zn.12644@edtnps90...
snip-----.

That it can be done that way, is by no means an endorsment that it can
ONLY be done that way.



I didn't imply that. That is in your imagination. I simply stated that I
prefer working that way, and included, somewhere ":YMMV".

Harold


I didna say you did, Harold. I simply made a statement to the effect
that just because it can be done one way, that it inna the only way.

I'm not trying to pick on ya. Really! :-)

Cheers
Trevor Jones

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"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
news:Lun3j.10216$Ji6.3791@edtnps89...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
news:xbe3j.33068$Zn.12644@edtnps90...
snip-----.

That it can be done that way, is by no means an endorsment that it can
ONLY be done that way.



I didn't imply that. That is in your imagination. I simply stated that
I prefer working that way, and included, somewhere ":YMMV".

Harold


I didna say you did, Harold. I simply made a statement to the effect that
just because it can be done one way, that it inna the only way.

I'm not trying to pick on ya. Really! :-)

Cheers
Trevor Jones


If you'd like to be realistic, and this is sure to raise a few
eyebrows------the use of a DRO is a perfect avoidance of learning good and
proper procedures. For one, when a DRO is employed, operators tend to
disregard backlash----which is ever present, and can be difficult for
reasons beyond positioning properly.

Want me to say it another way? A DRO is often used in the same way
insert carbide tooling is used----to avoid learning something that requires
considerable effort. You might say it's the great equalizer------but it's
not. That's my point. Those of us that learned machining the hard way
learned from the ground up, and can perform tasks routinely that many find
difficult, or impossible.

Do I recommend against a DRO? Hell no-----but I do recommend against a
DRO if it comes at the price on never learning to work with dials. Dials
are always there for you-----and in the hands of talented people, can serve
exceedingly well.

Example?

Much of the tooling I built had tolerances in tenths. In all my years in
the shop, I worked exclusively with screws, and I had just common machine
tools, nothing exotic. I learned to operate my equipment
properly------something that surely would not have occurred had I used cheat
methods.

Smoke 'em if you've got 'em, but don't go out of your way to buy 'em if you
have any talent at all. They're not all they're cracked up to be, and
they'll deprive you of a valuable learning experience. The money spent in
a DRO could be far better spent on more equipment that actually contributed
to one's shop.

Harold


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Default How to paint dials on mill?

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
news:Lun3j.10216$Ji6.3791@edtnps89...

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:


"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
news:xbe3j.33068$Zn.12644@edtnps90...
snip-----.


That it can be done that way, is by no means an endorsment that it can
ONLY be done that way.


I didn't imply that. That is in your imagination. I simply stated that
I prefer working that way, and included, somewhere ":YMMV".

Harold



I didna say you did, Harold. I simply made a statement to the effect that
just because it can be done one way, that it inna the only way.

I'm not trying to pick on ya. Really! :-)

Cheers
Trevor Jones



If you'd like to be realistic, and this is sure to raise a few
eyebrows------the use of a DRO is a perfect avoidance of learning good and
proper procedures. For one, when a DRO is employed, operators tend to
disregard backlash----which is ever present, and can be difficult for
reasons beyond positioning properly.

Want me to say it another way? A DRO is often used in the same way
insert carbide tooling is used----to avoid learning something that requires
considerable effort. You might say it's the great equalizer------but it's
not. That's my point. Those of us that learned machining the hard way
learned from the ground up, and can perform tasks routinely that many find
difficult, or impossible.

Do I recommend against a DRO? Hell no-----but I do recommend against a
DRO if it comes at the price on never learning to work with dials. Dials
are always there for you-----and in the hands of talented people, can serve
exceedingly well.

Example?

Much of the tooling I built had tolerances in tenths. In all my years in
the shop, I worked exclusively with screws, and I had just common machine
tools, nothing exotic. I learned to operate my equipment
properly------something that surely would not have occurred had I used cheat
methods.

Smoke 'em if you've got 'em, but don't go out of your way to buy 'em if you
have any talent at all. They're not all they're cracked up to be, and
they'll deprive you of a valuable learning experience. The money spent in
a DRO could be far better spent on more equipment that actually contributed
to one's shop.

Harold


I like having the DRO on the machines at work. I have work to do, and
they are a tool that allows me to just get on with it.

That said, I have used the same machines, when the DRO was not
working, and the dials were missing (machine crash, my doing). It was
different, but the parts I made, met the tolerances, and went out on
time. Just took a bit longer.

To the backlash issue. In our shop, backlash IS an issue. DRO or no,
one learns rapidly, that if one is going to make a decent part
repeatably, one must learn to set up the machine for repeatable results.
shrug It's just the way it is. Machining and getting good results, is
no less a learned skill, whether it is done with dials, without, or with
CNC. End results count for bonus points, rather than the means.
I got no problems holding the tolerances "I" must meet. I got my
doubts that I would not have a few skeletons in the chip pile (or a LOT
of them!)if I were required to meet the tolerances you call out as
normal for the parts you made. Different stuff than most of us have to
deal with, and overkill, for most work.

One of the things I have to deal with, with our apprentices, is
getting them past the idea that they MUST get within a half thou, on a
part that states a 20 thou tolerance. Spend the time on the part, that
it calls for, not more. Careful work on the high tolerance parts. Fast
work on the low tolerance stuff. Get it out, within spec.

I suspect, Harold, that the machines you used were uncommon. They were
like as not, actual good, solidly built, and reasonably well maintained
machines from good makers, chosen for the shop, as having the ability to
work within the tolerances required.
Likely a fair far cry from a lathe like a South Bend 9", eh?
Trade in your Graziano on a nice benchtop 10" asian product and the
reality of working to your old levels, is just a bit different. :-)Ugh!
Wadda 'orrible thought!

Were it not for the fact that a decent DRO to fit my lathe and mill,
would run me near what I have invested in them, I would have one on each
machine in my home "shop". They are nice to have, but not an absolute
requirement.

For a guy with eyesight on the go, that can afford one for his hobby,
I think a DRO can make life just a little bit more enjoyable.

I agree wholeheartedly with the comment about Carbide tooling! It too
is nice to have for some things, but too often is used as a crutch to
avoid learning how to grind tools.

It always surprises me to see otherwise rational and capable folk,
that truly beleive that grinding a lathe tool is beyond them..

Cheers
Trevor Jones

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"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
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Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

snip-----

I got no problems holding the tolerances "I" must meet. I got my doubts
that I would not have a few skeletons in the chip pile (or a LOT of
them!)if I were required to meet the tolerances you call out as normal for
the parts you made. Different stuff than most of us have to deal with, and
overkill, for most work.


Don't get the wrong impression. Much of the work I did as a toolmaker
wasn't close at all. Even when building a challenging tool, often the
majority of tolerances were wide open, with many of the dimensions at my
discretion. Assembly hardware for a tool was rarely, if ever, dimensioned.
It's expected that a toolmaker know enough about what he's doing to make
those decisions. Location of assembling screws and dowel pins, when I
build tools, is always such that similar components, or identical
components, can't be mounted in the wrong position. They are features that
don't matter, and do not receive inspection. The point is, when it's
necessary, I can do it, and do it with reliability. I've crowed about this
before, but I'll make mention again. I ran my shop for 16 years. I had
work in house from Litton Guidance & Control for the entire duration of my
operation. In those 16 years, I had five rejects. I didn't accept any
work with a tolerance under a tenth, for I was unable to work to such a
tolerance with what I had at my disposal. None of the work that was
rejected was because of missing dimensions-----although I recall in one case
a tool was rejected because I had failed to include an engraved line. That
happens when you have your head in a dark place! :-)


One of the things I have to deal with, with our apprentices, is getting
them past the idea that they MUST get within a half thou, on a part that
states a 20 thou tolerance. Spend the time on the part, that it calls for,
not more. Careful work on the high tolerance parts. Fast work on the low
tolerance stuff. Get it out, within spec.


That is a common argument with people of today, and I propose to you that's
exactly one of the reasons why it's so hard to find qualified people. If
you think you can turn out work running from one end of the tolerance to the
other and become a fine machinist in the process, you've missed something,
somewhere.

Mind you, I'm not here to tell you how to work, nor how to formulate your
work ethic------but one thing I can and will tell you is if you turn out
every job using hack processes, you'll never be a decent machinist. When
challenged to do the type of work I mentioned, you'll be at a loss, and will
have success mainly from good fortune, if at all. That isn't at all how I
worked----and would have proven to be my downfall had I.

The time you spend learning how to work closely is the time needed to hone
skills that are required to do so. Those that don't spend the time will
generally suffer when it comes time to do fine work. My years in the shop
have proven that to me beyond any doubt. We, here in America, are sucking
a hind tit these days because the bar has been lowered to the point where
pride in one's workmanship has become secondary to making that fast buck.
Even management has encouraged the concept, and has paid dearly as a result.
The vast majority of work that left our shores in the 70's (auto production,
for example) was driven far more by **** poor quality than anything else I
can imagine. Couple that with unearned wages, and we were doomed to the
hard times we endured. Funny thing is, it appear a lesson that we don't
learn well. Just recently I heard a Ford commercial in which they were
extolling the virtues of improved quality. What the hell happened to the
improved quality they discussed when they started losing business back in
the late 70's, and early 80's, when they bragged of improving? It
appears we're long on lip service and damned short on service..


I suspect, Harold, that the machines you used were uncommon. They were
like as not, actual good, solidly built, and reasonably well maintained
machines from good makers, chosen for the shop, as having the ability to
work within the tolerances required.


They were exactly as you described-----common industrial rated machines,
everything but my Bridgeport, that is. A Bridgeport is one of the most
over rated machines I've ever encountered. It lacks the quality of what I
would consider acceptable machines, but they offered something that none of
the others did----a very flexible machine that was affordable. I paid
less than $3,000 for my first BP, new, including a vise and collets. My
second one, purchased in the mid 70's, cost more, about $7,000 as I recall.
When I purchased my first mill, a new EE Monarch could be purchased for
$10,000 (1967). Had I had the resources, that's exactly what I would have
purchased in place of my Sag 12 Graziano, which cost about $4,600, with a 2
speed motor. Base price was less------about $4,100. I had to make a request
for the two speed, which was not offered in their literature.


Likely a fair far cry from a lathe like a South Bend 9", eh?
Trade in your Graziano on a nice benchtop 10" asian product and the
reality of working to your old levels, is just a bit different. :-)Ugh!
Wadda 'orrible thought!


Yes-----I agree. By contrast, none of my work, sans one optical gauge,
was done on anything but my Graziano or BP. I rented time on a P&W jig
borer for one component for the optical gauge, which was very difficult to
machine because of the tolerance involved.


Were it not for the fact that a decent DRO to fit my lathe and mill,
would run me near what I have invested in them, I would have one on each
machine in my home "shop". They are nice to have, but not an absolute
requirement.


That's been my point right along. I've never suggested they shouldn't be
used-----but I do suggest they not be used as a dodge for experience. Not
if a person desires to become proficient at machining. You might look at
this in the same way that an apprentice used to start out sweeping floors,
and worked his way up the ladder. If you don't learn to use dials, a big
part of necessary experience is circumvented. Not saying a person can't
achieve results, not at all-----but I am saying the said person will be
lacking in areas that will create shortcomings in their output.


For a guy with eyesight on the go, that can afford one for his hobby, I
think a DRO can make life just a little bit more enjoyable.


Again, no argument-----but even my tired 68 year old eyes can still work
tenths on a dial that is hard to read with good eyes. It's more about
being a machinist than having the latest and best cheat devices. A moron
running an EE Monarch with a DRO will still be a moron, in other words.


I agree wholeheartedly with the comment about Carbide tooling! It too is
nice to have for some things, but too often is used as a crutch to avoid
learning how to grind tools.

It always surprises me to see otherwise rational and capable folk, that
truly beleive that grinding a lathe tool is beyond them..


I agree-------and it's something that you simply can't learn from reading.
The skills necessary come from application of knowledge that comes from
books, that I'll grant you, but just like you can't read a book and learn to
play a piano, you can't read a book and learn to grind toolbits.

I've never failed in grinding a toolbit ---even difficult
configurations---but then I told myself long ago that I can grind
toolbits-----I never limited my skills by suggesting that I couldn't. It's
all about attitude, and paying attention. Once you figure out the
characteristics of a wheel, and understand when it's time to dress, the rest
is nothing but repetition. I can teach anyone to grind a tool in
minutes------although it may take a person a few weeks to gain the
confidence I have------and I have plenty.

If you're interested in reading some of my ravings, a gentlemen compiled
several threads and posted them as a single download. I've never read what
was compiled----I'm on a dreadfully slow dialup------but if you'd like to
peruse what I had to say, not only about grinding HSS, but grinders and
wheels, here's a link for the download:

http://www.savefile.com/files/915454

Harold







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Default How to paint dials on mill?

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

One of the things I have to deal with, with our apprentices, is getting
them past the idea that they MUST get within a half thou, on a part that
states a 20 thou tolerance. Spend the time on the part, that it calls for,
not more. Careful work on the high tolerance parts. Fast work on the low
tolerance stuff. Get it out, within spec.



That is a common argument with people of today, and I propose to you that's
exactly one of the reasons why it's so hard to find qualified people. If
you think you can turn out work running from one end of the tolerance to the
other and become a fine machinist in the process, you've missed something,
somewhere.


I dunno if yer gettin the level of this.

Had a guy using the mill to cut off a bunch of mild steel, to be used
as spacers in a weldement.

Late in the day, he was still at making his dozen parts. Wanted to
know where the stock was. I had pointed him at two full sticks, earlier
that day.

I found them, cut into tidy pieces, in the scrap bin. HE did not like
that the parts were only within 5 thou of the dimension that was on the
page, so he was still trying to get it bang-on. I kicked his sorry ass
out to the dumpster, and told him to use the ****ing cutting torch like
he had been told in the first place. The guy was about to cut up another
full bar, to get dimensions that were WAY beyond the tolerances required.

I had to watch, pretty much in agony, while another guy spent two days
making 8 bushings. They were to be cold shrunk in. Aluminum. 5/8 inch
7075 barstock. Looks like a countersunk head screw, with a hole through
the middle. Tolerances are to within 2-5 tenths. Two ****ing whole days!
Should have taken him about 8 minutes per bushing. Less, if he was able
to think at a speed that would allow him to breathe and walk at the same
time. That was AFTER I ground the form tool, and set up the lathe, and
demonstrated the making of the first one (which came out as a useable
bushing BTW)

Nothing wrong with being willing to do good work. I just have little
patience for those that do not put a little effort into applying a
reasonable level of appropriate work into the job in front of them.
Trying to work to tenths, on a job that could be marked in crayon and
cut with a torch, is an innappropriate use of time and facilities.
And there are some people that are in over their heads, emptying
garbage cans.


Mind you, I'm not here to tell you how to work, nor how to formulate your
work ethic------but one thing I can and will tell you is if you turn out
every job using hack processes, you'll never be a decent machinist. When
challenged to do the type of work I mentioned, you'll be at a loss, and will
have success mainly from good fortune, if at all. That isn't at all how I
worked----and would have proven to be my downfall had I.

I try to do good work all the time. Less comebacks. Equals less
headaches for me. We have, historically, always been able to find the
time to fix stuff that was done poorly, in a rush. By that alone, I
figure we have the time to do it right the first time. I have no problem
with being a surly prick, when dealing with guys trying to pressure me
to get something done in a hurry, or to take shortcuts, either.
I had one boss that developed a bit of a twitch. When he would ask how
long a job was going to take, I would give it some thought, and tell
him, "two weeks". Got to the point where he stopped asking me. The work
got done faster, without the interuptions. He was happier, I was happier.

The time you spend learning how to work closely is the time needed to hone
skills that are required to do so. Those that don't spend the time will
generally suffer when it comes time to do fine work.


We do a lot of small, cold shrunk, then reamed to size, bushings in
our shop. Tolerances to a couple tenths are typical, if you want them to
work out. We have enough guys here that are able to produce at those
levels, that we are able to carry on.
In our shop, that is the kind of job that requires the fine work, and
the fine work is applied. There is nought to gain, and much time to be
spent, trying to apply the same work to putting points on steel
grounding stakes, or on other jobs that could have as well been done
with angle grinders or cutting torches.

snippage

If you're interested in reading some of my ravings, a gentlemen compiled
several threads and posted them as a single download. I've never read what
was compiled----I'm on a dreadfully slow dialup------but if you'd like to
peruse what I had to say, not only about grinding HSS, but grinders and
wheels, here's a link for the download:

http://www.savefile.com/files/915454


I'll see if I can get registered and get it downloaded.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

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Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

If you're interested in reading some of my ravings, a gentlemen compiled
several threads and posted them as a single download. I've never read what
was compiled----I'm on a dreadfully slow dialup------but if you'd like to
peruse what I had to say, not only about grinding HSS, but grinders and
wheels, here's a link for the download:

http://www.savefile.com/files/915454

Harold






I got the file down and printed it out.

The only thing negative, that I have to say about it, is that it, when
viewed from the perspective of a rank novice, would serve tidily as a
deterrent to ever going near a metalworking tool. It does make it seem
like everything must be "just so" or you will not have any success at all.

Great info for an advanced beginner or at least a somewhat more
experienced metalworker, though. Very well written, and you are able to
communicate the ideas you are presenting in a very clear manner. That is
how it seemed to me, in any case.

Worth the read.

The tools that you show there are a bit different than those I use
regularly. I use a lot of 3/16" and 1/4" HSS tools, either flat on top,
or ground with a fair bit of top rake. I use a lot of small boring bars,
ground very similarly to the one shown.

I can confess to doing most roughing operations with Carbide, as it is
available and convenient, and when I must, I grind larger HSS tools, but
for the most part, the work that requires the finer tolerances, is
generally quite small, so small tool bits suffice.

I do try to get the apprentices thinking in terms of how they can get
the most use out of a single set-up, and to think about minimizing tool
changes and losses of zeros, and try to pound into them that the reason
they have a quick change toolpost is to AVOID having to loosen it off to
turn it about, and then having to pick up their zeros all over again.

Threatened to put the lantern tool post back on the lathe, for one
guy, before he got that clue.

I make it sound like all the apprentices are a bunch of clueless
thickies. Not all of them. I have several co-workers now, that came
through in the last few years and showed aptitude and willingness to
learn from their experiences, and the willingness to do good work,
rather than the minimum possible.

Not allowed to beat the apprentices. Too bad. Some could use it.

Cheers
Trevor Jones




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"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
news:en14j.10506$Ji6.1223@edtnps89...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

If you're interested in reading some of my ravings, a gentlemen compiled
several threads and posted them as a single download. I've never read
what
was compiled----I'm on a dreadfully slow dialup------but if you'd like to
peruse what I had to say, not only about grinding HSS, but grinders and
wheels, here's a link for the download:

http://www.savefile.com/files/915454

Harold


I got the file down and printed it out.

The only thing negative, that I have to say about it, is that it, when
viewed from the perspective of a rank novice, would serve tidily as a
deterrent to ever going near a metalworking tool. It does make it seem
like everything must be "just so" or you will not have any success at all.


To be quite frank, I do not suffer fools gladly. Anyone with an aptitude
can learn from what I had posted, and become very proficient at grinding
tools. Yes---I fully expect them to pay attention to my words. I'm VERY
good at grinding tools, even now.

Do the math. How many folks do you know that can grind decent tools? To
convey the idea that all you have to do is stab a toolbit at a grinding
wheel and it will cut is a disservice to anyone that desires to learn to
grind them. Tools cut for known reasons, so you must conform to the
guidelines involved, otherwise you're not going to experience the outcome
you may desire. A rank novice shouldn't be deceived into thinking there's
nothing to it, for that's not true. The big difference is, what I describe
isn't beyond the ability of anyone that has enough sense to come in out of
the rain, and has the ability to follow simple instructions. The rest is no
different from learning to play a musical instrument----practice until you
have it down.


Great info for an advanced beginner or at least a somewhat more
experienced metalworker, though. Very well written, and you are able to
communicate the ideas you are presenting in a very clear manner. That is
how it seemed to me, in any case.

Worth the read.


Thanks for the kind words.

One of my biggest fears when I first started posting was that I would be
unable to convey my message in such a way that it was meaningful. I have
no education beyond high school, and was a miserable student with a C
average in English. I was never known for my writing prowess and considered
that I may not be able to put two words together. English was one of the
classes that provided a generous portion of my sleeping hours, I'm not proud
to say.

I have had others comment that I appear to be able provide useful
information, but it's always nice to hear it from those that are
experienced.


The tools that you show there are a bit different than those I use
regularly. I use a lot of 3/16" and 1/4" HSS tools, either flat on top, or
ground with a fair bit of top rake. I use a lot of small boring bars,
ground very similarly to the one shown.


Size isn't a factor, as you likely understand. The principles remain the
same. Get the theory down, then practice grinding until it makes sense and
you achieve the desired results.

Abandoning a grinding rest (for grinding HSS) is one of the best things a
guy can do, but it requires a complete different mindset in order to be
successful. It's not an easy transition, but well worth the effort. OSHA
is likely to take a dim view. They have no authority over the home shop,
however.


I can confess to doing most roughing operations with Carbide, as it is
available and convenient, and when I must, I grind larger HSS tools, but
for the most part, the work that requires the finer tolerances, is
generally quite small, so small tool bits suffice.


I also used my share of carbide, often because it would move metal at a
faster rate------but guys with small lathes, fractional HP motors,
especially low speed, should be discouraged at every turn from emulating
that process. It's a total waste of time, expensive in the scheme of
things, but, worst of all, it deprives a person from learning to grind good
and useful tools-----which will hold a person captive until rectified.

Nothing turns me off quicker than to encounter a damned yokel that
proclaims himself a "machinist", yet he/she can't grind the simplest of
tools. Sort of like a guy with a buzz box in his garage, proudly
proclaiming to the world the he's a "welder". I've know weldors, most of
whom are certified. You can believe me when I tell you, a guy that can't
grind toolbits is to a machinist what a guy with a buzz box in his garage is
to a weldor.


I make it sound like all the apprentices are a bunch of clueless thickies.
Not all of them. I have several co-workers now, that came through in the
last few years and showed aptitude and willingness to learn from their
experiences, and the willingness to do good work, rather than the minimum
possible.


You are witnessing, in my opinion, the end product of children having been
raised by parents that have never had to pay a price for anything in their
life. Everything has been handed to these folks, so they don't equate effort
with reward. It's not just in your shop-----it's everywhere. Many of
the workers of today have absolutely no pride in what they do------but a
burning desire to make a ton of money. That idea does NOT a machinist
make. It's safe to say that many of these guys haven't yet learned that
you have to work---and apply yourself. They will----it's just a matter of
time. Some will drop out. We see them living under bridges. A select few
will make you proud. I know. My mentor showcased me regularly. Upper
management wanted to fire me because I was like those you complain about.
One day it all changed, thanks to that wonderful man, Jay Dobson, how
deceased. I owe him everything I became.

Few have the innate ability to make a good machinist. I witnessed that
when I was in training. It was obvious that some of the guys that got
involved were not suited. One guy, in particular, was the son of a
machinist, so he followed in his father's footsteps. He could have stayed
in the shop for his lifetime and wouldn't have been worth hiring. It simply
wasn't his cup of tea. By sharp contrast, many of those that were my peers
went on to become fine machinists, with a disproportionate number of them
eventually starting their own shops. All but one that I can recall were
successful.

I'll repeat another example I mentioned recently. One of the trainees was
obviously not happy in the shop. He quit and became an embalmer/undertaker.
While I never talked to him after he left training, his cousin, who was one
of the QC personnel, told me that he was well pleased with his new career.
As I said, not everyone is cut out to be a machinist.


Not allowed to beat the apprentices. Too bad. Some could use it.

Cheers
Trevor Jones


Management as well. I had one foreman that I'd have slapped senseless
given the opportunity. He, single handedly, threw more cold water on me and
my ability than any other individual I ever encountered. He was clearly
intimidated by anyone with skill and talent, likely fearing for his job.
He displayed his contempt for me regularly by passing me over for overtime
work, yet inviting others, many of which were far less productive. I
solved that riddle my leaving the job, which wasn't much of one, anyway.
Good people seek their level. It became obvious to me that running my own
business was the level that was appropriate.

Turns out, it was. :-)

Harold


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"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
news:WyU3j.15039$HH2.3107@edtnps82...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

One of the things I have to deal with, with our apprentices, is getting
them past the idea that they MUST get within a half thou, on a part that
states a 20 thou tolerance. Spend the time on the part, that it calls
for,
not more. Careful work on the high tolerance parts. Fast work on the low
tolerance stuff. Get it out, within spec.



That is a common argument with people of today, and I propose to you
that's
exactly one of the reasons why it's so hard to find qualified people.
If
you think you can turn out work running from one end of the tolerance to
the
other and become a fine machinist in the process, you've missed
something,
somewhere.


I dunno if yer gettin the level of this.


Oh, but I am. You're trying to make money, and he's trying to learn.. They
don't often go hand in hand.


Had a guy using the mill to cut off a bunch of mild steel, to be used as
spacers in a weldement.

Late in the day, he was still at making his dozen parts. Wanted to know
where the stock was. I had pointed him at two full sticks, earlier that
day.

I found them, cut into tidy pieces, in the scrap bin. HE did not like
that the parts were only within 5 thou of the dimension that was on the
page, so he was still trying to get it bang-on. I kicked his sorry ass out
to the dumpster, and told him to use the ****ing cutting torch like he had
been told in the first place. The guy was about to cut up another full
bar, to get dimensions that were WAY beyond the tolerances required.


And this person has extensive experience? He's likely in the process of
learning, and has yet to distinguish that which is important. If his
mindset is as you suggest, he likely will make one of the best
machinists--when he has enough experience. It doesn't come by hack work.
If I had a guy that displayed what you described, I'd move him to work in
keeping with his desires, so he'd hone his skills.


I had to watch, pretty much in agony, while another guy spent two days
making 8 bushings. They were to be cold shrunk in. Aluminum. 5/8 inch 7075
barstock. Looks like a countersunk head screw, with a hole through the
middle. Tolerances are to within 2-5 tenths. Two ****ing whole days!
Should have taken him about 8 minutes per bushing. Less, if he was able to
think at a speed that would allow him to breathe and walk at the same
time. That was AFTER I ground the form tool, and set up the lathe, and
demonstrated the making of the first one (which came out as a useable
bushing BTW)


And this guy is a journeyman? You may be able to do it that way, but he
must learn the process before he can. I share your frustration, but to
expect a level of performance in keeping with a journeyman, assuming he's
not one, is a tall order. As I said, these people may turn out to be good
machinists, but if they are shown nothing but hack work, they WILL struggle
when they must do fine work, just as I described previously. You just
presented a perfect example, assuming he's really trying.


Nothing wrong with being willing to do good work. I just have little
patience for those that do not put a little effort into applying a
reasonable level of appropriate work into the job in front of them. Trying
to work to tenths, on a job that could be marked in crayon and cut with a
torch, is an innappropriate use of time and facilities.
And there are some people that are in over their heads, emptying garbage
cans.


You must sort those that can from those that can't------and it's not often
evident which is which. I'm living proof.



Mind you, I'm not here to tell you how to work, nor how to formulate your
work ethic------but one thing I can and will tell you is if you turn out
every job using hack processes, you'll never be a decent machinist. When
challenged to do the type of work I mentioned, you'll be at a loss, and
will
have success mainly from good fortune, if at all. That isn't at all
how I
worked----and would have proven to be my downfall had I.

I try to do good work all the time. Less comebacks. Equals less headaches
for me. We have, historically, always been able to find the time to fix
stuff that was done poorly, in a rush. By that alone, I figure we have the
time to do it right the first time.


Exactly my thoughts------but there may be a huge difference in what you find
acceptable and what I find acceptable. Our backgrounds may not have a great
deal in common-----so it's hard to judge your position. I never promoted
the concept of dashing through a job by sacrificing quality, but I was in
complete control, unlike you, where you are at the mercy of the abilities of
others.


I have no problem
with being a surly prick, when dealing with guys trying to pressure me to
get something done in a hurry, or to take shortcuts, either.


That is not an issue. If a person doesn't want a job done well, they had
the wrong shop. No guarantee it would turn out perfectly as they might
desire, but if not, it wasn't because my best effort hadn't been applied.
Again, if you learn to do good work, you can usually turn it out just as
fast as a hacker, but with quality. BUT-----and this is important------it
must be practiced. The reward comes long afterwards, when jobs aren't
returned because of defective workmanship. Of course, in today's
society, I'm not sure anyone knows the difference. They sure as hell did
when I was engaged in machining, that you can believe.

I had one boss that developed a bit of a twitch. When he would ask how
long a job was going to take, I would give it some thought, and tell him,
"two weeks". Got to the point where he stopped asking me. The work got
done faster, without the interuptions. He was happier, I was happier.


A good manager won't make his presence known, assuming you're doing your
work properly. He/she fully expects you'll make him/her look good, so
they'll be very supportive of you and your decisions. If you find that's not
how things are, you must explore yourself, and him/her, to determine which
is lacking.


The time you spend learning how to work closely is the time needed to
hone
skills that are required to do so. Those that don't spend the time will
generally suffer when it comes time to do fine work.


We do a lot of small, cold shrunk, then reamed to size, bushings in our
shop. Tolerances to a couple tenths are typical, if you want them to work
out. We have enough guys here that are able to produce at those levels,
that we are able to carry on.


Then that's where the work should go-------unless you feel a need to bring
along younger guys. A well run shop will qualify their workers for all
tasks, however. You never know when you'll lose a key employee----the very
guy that handles the tough work. You have to suffer through a few of those
guys that are striving to hold that .005" tolerance you suggested was a
waste of time. That's how they learn.


In our shop, that is the kind of job that requires the fine work, and the
fine work is applied. There is nought to gain, and much time to be spent,
trying to apply the same work to putting points on steel grounding stakes,
or on other jobs that could have as well been done with angle grinders or
cutting torches.


Doesn't sound like a place for a machinist.

There's a big difference between a place that requires a machinist, and a
place that machines a little metal, if you get my drift. A good example
is a generator (automotive) shop. They turn armatures regularly, but the man
running the miserable little lathe is hardly a machinist. Yet he gets the
armatures turned and undercut.

It's all in your perspective, isn't it!

Harold


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