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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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How to paint dials on mill?
The dials are etched, and are .200" per turn.
I can't read them without magnification and an extra lamp. I would like to make them black down in the grooves and white on top. How is that done? TIA |
#2
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How to paint dials on mill?
Clark Magnuson wrote:
The dials are etched, and are .200" per turn. I can't read them without magnification and an extra lamp. I would like to make them black down in the grooves and white on top. How is that done? TIA If there is any depth to them, paint and either a fast wipe with a solvent dampened cloth, or sandpaper on a backing block. You can also get black wax crayons for filling in the markings. Rub in, wipe with a dry cloth. Repeat as required. Consider springing for new dials,. They are availablefor the Bridgeport style machines, and adaptable to others. Best solution, though not the cheap one, DRO! On a mill, put 3 axiis on, and forget about the quill, or put one of the cheapo digital micrometer type units on the quill. Cheers Trevor Jones |
#3
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How to paint dials on mill?
Another solution is to use a lot more light.
i |
#4
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How to paint dials on mill?
LacquerStik Fill-in Paint. Comes in Black or White. Sort of like a
crayon in a cardboard tube. I think I got mine from MSC. You rub it into the etched marks, let it harden a little, then wipe off the surface with a hard cloth so the fibers don't get into the marks and pull the paint out. Good luck making them white on top. I'd settle for just getting the black into the grooves. Pete Stanaitis ----------------------------- Clark Magnuson wrote: The dials are etched, and are .200" per turn. I can't read them without magnification and an extra lamp. I would like to make them black down in the grooves and white on top. How is that done? TIA |
#5
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How to paint dials on mill?
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:06:16 -0600, spaco wrote:
LacquerStik Fill-in Paint. Comes in Black or White. Sort of like a crayon in a cardboard tube. I think I got mine from MSC. You rub it into the etched marks, let it harden a little, then wipe off the surface with a hard cloth so the fibers don't get into the marks and pull the paint out. Good luck making them white on top. I'd settle for just getting the black into the grooves. Paint white. Let dry. Scratch white paint out of grooves. Apply lacquerstick. |
#6
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How to paint dials on mill?
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:46:27 -0800, Clark Magnuson
wrote: The dials are etched, and are .200" per turn. I can't read them without magnification and an extra lamp. I would like to make them black down in the grooves and white on top. How is that done? TIA Sometimes you can clean them well (slots, hopefully they are recessed and not just painted on) and darken them with a fine tip felt marker. Color of your choice. -- Leon Fisk Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b Remove no.spam for email |
#7
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How to paint dials on mill?
Trevor Jones wrote:
Best solution, though not the cheap one, DRO! On a mill, put 3 axiis on, and forget about the quill, or put one of the cheapo digital micrometer type units on the quill. I prefer the dro though I did scotch brite the wheels and rub in lacquer stick from McMaster for my uncle who will not use the DRO. Wes |
#8
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How to paint dials on mill?
On Nov 27, 1:28 am, Trevor Jones wrote:
Best solution, though not the cheap one, DRO! On a mill, put 3 axiis on, and forget about the quill, or put one of the cheapo digital micrometer type units on the quill. Cheers Trevor Jones I agree. A DRO gives you so much extra capability. The investment will pay itself off in a very short time. Your productivity will increase, aswell as your accuracy. Setup times will come down aswell. If you go this way, get yourself an edge finder also, no more witness cuts required. Cheers, Dom. |
#9
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How to paint dials on mill?
On Nov 26, 9:46 am, Clark Magnuson wrote:
The dials are etched, and are .200" per turn. I can't read them without magnification and an extra lamp. I would like to make them black down in the grooves and white on top. How is that done? TIA How is it done? Well, Hardinge use a white plastic for the dial, which is engraved and then filled with black. If you want to make entirely new dials, you can do it their way. If you want to use your existing dials, I can't imagine how you might get them white and then black. You might try some type of plating, such as satin chrome or even copper, followed by a paint stick in the grooves. Maybe the satin chrome will give you the contrast you want. John Martin |
#10
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How to paint dials on mill?
"Wes" wrote in message
... Trevor Jones wrote: Best solution, though not the cheap one, DRO! On a mill, put 3 axiis on, and forget about the quill, or put one of the cheapo digital micrometer type units on the quill. I prefer the dro though I did scotch brite the wheels and rub in lacquer stick from McMaster for my uncle who will not use the DRO. Wes "will not use the DRO."???? Why not? Is it against his religion? I'm scratching my head trying to figure this one out and I've got nothing. Mike |
#11
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How to paint dials on mill?
The Davenport's wrote:
"Wes" wrote in message ... Trevor Jones wrote: Best solution, though not the cheap one, DRO! On a mill, put 3 axiis on, and forget about the quill, or put one of the cheapo digital micrometer type units on the quill. I prefer the dro though I did scotch brite the wheels and rub in lacquer stick from McMaster for my uncle who will not use the DRO. Wes "will not use the DRO."???? Why not? Is it against his religion? I'm scratching my head trying to figure this one out and I've got nothing. Mike I knew a professional machinist, older school, he specialised in gear shaping, splines, and keyways, but thats not really important. He didn't have a DRO on any of his machines. He had various mills, lathes, and gear shapers. I knew him through my neighbours and one year when he was over at their place he came to look at my BP with DRO. He checked the dials against the DRO readout, spot on. I don't think he trusted the new electronic stuff though, which is a shame as it would probably have improved his output by quite a bit. |
#12
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How to paint dials on mill?
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:46:27 -0800, Clark Magnuson
wrote: The dials are etched, and are .200" per turn. I can't read them without magnification and an extra lamp. I would like to make them black down in the grooves and white on top. How is that done? TIA Hey Clark, Etched!?!? I mean really etched?? Like with a chemical or a laser?? You've got a problem. For scribed marks with stamped digits, as most dials are, others have suggestions, except I didn't read " remove, clean really well, run a sharp pointy thing in each line and digit to remove old paint, clean again in some good degreaser, let dry well, spray with black paint". After it is really good and dry, crocus cloth the surface off, leaving all the scribed lines and stamped digits filled. One thing that is quite easy to do for a short fix is to use any CAD program to make a long slip of paper printout that is surprisingly accurate with a bit of fiddling. For instance, my Bridgeport has 3-1/4" dial wheels. That gives a circumference of 10.2102, divided into the 200 required lines gives a line every .05105 inches. You can either get fancy and "array" the lines, or just plow through making them the line length you want for each thou, five thou, and ten thou. Add numbers to suit, and plot or print that out and you can simply tape to the dial with clear Scotch tape. It's cheap to try, and works quite well if you use lacquer or decoupage glue to fasten it instead of the Scotch tape. Easy to replace too, and you CAN get fancy and use some sort of colour coding. I just took fifteen minutes and did that in Autocad, printed out on a five year-old inkjet. (Your skills may take less time.) Spacing was good, but I'd need to work on the "text" a bit. But it sure is easy to see !! And I can try different ways of aligning the "text" to suit my preferences too ! Take care. Brian Lawson, Bothwell, Ontario. ps.....This same sort of CAD and paper thing works very well for dial faces to your liking on pressure gauges and meters, etc., too. |
#13
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How to paint dials on mill?
The dials are etched, and are .200" per turn.
I can't read them without magnification and an extra lamp. I would like to make them black down in the grooves and white on top. Another option, if you'd rather just throw money at the problem: http://www.sherline.com/ezread.htm --Glenn Lyford |
#14
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How to paint dials on mill?
"The Davenport's" wrote:
"will not use the DRO."???? Why not? Is it against his religion? He is a Luddite. |
#15
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How to paint dials on mill?
"The Davenport's" wrote in message ... "Wes" wrote in message ... Trevor Jones wrote: Best solution, though not the cheap one, DRO! On a mill, put 3 axiis on, and forget about the quill, or put one of the cheapo digital micrometer type units on the quill. I prefer the dro though I did scotch brite the wheels and rub in lacquer stick from McMaster for my uncle who will not use the DRO. Wes "will not use the DRO."???? Why not? Is it against his religion? I'm scratching my head trying to figure this one out and I've got nothing. Mike I can't speak for him, nor for his religion------but I, too, don't use a DRO, Never have, and likely never will. I was trained on manual machines, and made my living with them until I closed the doors on my commercial shop back in '83. I don't use a DRO because I can run machines without one-----and prefer to keep those skills sharp. I can still split thousandths reliably, and my dial is coarse, .400" off the diameter per revolution. Nice part about this is I can keep working should the DRO die, which many would find challenging. It takes considerable experience to use dials reliably. Key word is "reliably". Most folks know how to use dials, they just screw up a lot. Harold |
#16
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How to paint dials on mill?
First you would paint the dial with KHRILON gloss lac. base spray
paint ;;; spreay bomb. Let it dry for two days. Then spray the end of a old sock with a RUSOLIUM ... OIL BAISED spray bomb and wipe it on the dial untill just the increments held the black paint and the white was clean. Q - tips can be of a help. Steve E. On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:46:27 -0800, Clark Magnuson wrote: The dials are etched, and are .200" per turn. I can't read them without magnification and an extra lamp. I would like to make them black down in the grooves and white on top. How is that done? TIA |
#17
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How to paint dials on mill?
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:
I can't speak for him, nor for his religion------but I, too, don't use a DRO, Never have, and likely never will. I was trained on manual machines, and made my living with them until I closed the doors on my commercial shop back in '83. I don't use a DRO because I can run machines without one-----and prefer to keep those skills sharp. I can still split thousandths reliably, and my dial is coarse, .400" off the diameter per revolution. Nice part about this is I can keep working should the DRO die, which many would find challenging. Uncle used dials all his life too. He can see how a DRO could be useful but at this point in life why bother playing with something that might bite him in the butt. I can work either way though I'm more likely to blue and scribe lines when using dials to keep me honest. Most people want a dro on a mill but get along fine w/o one on a lathe. I don't see surface grinders with them either. The idea of fitting a DRO to the surface grinder is interesting though. Since you did a lot of grinding, when you re-dressed a wheel, how did you rapidly pick up on where you left off and keep track of how far you were from where you wanted to be? On our ID/OD grinders, the wheels are sent periodically to the diamond dresser by a certain amount further than the last time. The machine now knows the reduction in diameter of the wheels and creates new offset data and goes back where it left off. Wes |
#18
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How to paint dials on mill?
"Wes" wrote in message ... "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote: I can't speak for him, nor for his religion------but I, too, don't use a DRO, Never have, and likely never will. I was trained on manual machines, and made my living with them until I closed the doors on my commercial shop back in '83. I don't use a DRO because I can run machines without one-----and prefer to keep those skills sharp. I can still split thousandths reliably, and my dial is coarse, .400" off the diameter per revolution. Nice part about this is I can keep working should the DRO die, which many would find challenging. Uncle used dials all his life too. He can see how a DRO could be useful but at this point in life why bother playing with something that might bite him in the butt. Considering my lack of electronics prowess, I tend to see it much like that. Besides, I get great pleasure from being able to work without one, although I acknowledge that many things would happen faster with one. I am a dinosaur in today's manufacturing world, that I understand all too well, so I look at my self as one restoring a vintage car---------make it as good as you can----but keep it original. You have to work with someone with my mindset to fully understand----it's not just what we do, it's how we do it, and what we are. :-) I can work either way though I'm more likely to blue and scribe lines when using dials to keep me honest. I use my ever present 6" (or larger----I have them up to 24") scale, and rarely, if ever, make a layout. Most people want a dro on a mill but get along fine w/o one on a lathe. I don't see surface grinders with them either. The idea of fitting a DRO to the surface grinder is interesting though. My experience in grinding dictates that a DRO would be unlikely to be useful----but a great deal depends on the nature of the work at hand. And--don't lose sight of the fact that I choose not to use them. My comments are flavored heavily by my personal choices. YMMV. Since you did a lot of grinding, when you re-dressed a wheel, how did you rapidly pick up on where you left off and keep track of how far you were from where you wanted to be? Pick up and measure, with clear coolant and grease pencils being the methods of choice. When operating grinders without CNC controls, it's important that the coolant be transparent. I alluded to this in the recent thread in which soluble oil was included in the conversation. Heavy, clouded coolants make proper grinding very difficult. It stands to reason that every type machine will present its own set of problems, but touching off was pretty much the acceptable practice, including surface and centerless grinding. In a centerless, there's no doubt when you have intimate contact, for the part will feed through the machine, and won't even change size, assuming all you've done is pick up. Surfaces that are being ground, particularly on cylindrical grinding, both ID and OD surfaces, are marked with a grease pencil, then the wheel is carefully closed on the part. When the grease starts to smear, you are very near the surface of the part. Careful observation as tenths are removed (very easy to do on grinders, unlike a lathe or mill), one watches until the color is gone. At that point you may well have picked up without altering the surface, although that isn't necessarily the case. Once a surface has been picked up, the part is measured, and one works accordingly. It's all up to the operator-----and many make lousy grinders. It's a game of practiced skill and patience, often not a desirable task. It takes special people to be successful. The method I described can be very useful. While the pick feed was very reliable on the grinders I operated, there are times when you prefer to not remove a tenth. We had air gauging for one of the products we ground, which had a narrow tolerance of +.0002", - .0000". I'd often find myself hovering at the low end, only by a few millionths. Not wishing to risk the remote possibility of going oversized, it wasn't uncommon to grease the bore, start the table stroking, and observe the grease film. Because the wheel had entered a hole that had been previously ground, the wheel would pick up the precise location. After carefully observing the grease film, which by now would have been virtually eliminated, one placed a finger on the wheel head, and applied the slightest amount of pressure and held steady. When the color was gone, the hole would be enlarged by a few millionths. Try that on your trusty old Southbend lathe! :-) On our ID/OD grinders, the wheels are sent periodically to the diamond dresser by a certain amount further than the last time. The machine now knows the reduction in diameter of the wheels and creates new offset data and goes back where it left off. Wes While I respect those that have CNC knowledge, they are becoming cripples in a sense. No problem in the scheme of things, for I gather the majority of machines are intended to be run by numerical control solely------but skills that are necessary to run manual machines are not being taught-- or exercised--so the grinder of today, who may well be exceedingly skilled and talented, may not have the skills necessary to operate manual machines. That takes us back to working with a DRO------or not. :-) Harold |
#19
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How to paint dials on mill?
Brian Lawson wrote:
Hey Clark, Etched!?!? I mean really etched?? For scribed marks Yeah, I should have written "scribed". |
#20
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How to paint dials on mill?
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
Considering my lack of electronics prowess, I tend to see it much like that. Besides, I get great pleasure from being able to work without one, although I acknowledge that many things would happen faster with one. I am a dinosaur in today's manufacturing world, that I understand all too well, so I look at my self as one restoring a vintage car---------make it as good as you can----but keep it original. You have to work with someone with my mindset to fully understand----it's not just what we do, it's how we do it, and what we are. :-) Then there are those of us who are just too cheap to buy a DRO I freely admit there are times when it would be helpful, the most recent being a small stepped part on an RT - more clamps than work visible, so there was not much in the way of a clear path for a scale. For most things that I do, it is easy to slap a scale on the work and use the dials to refine positions. For windows, a DRO would save some time. I mark the corners with a 30-50 thou plunge, which is the worst of it (travel time mosly). Working out the backlash-affected dial readings does not take long. I can see why someone cranking out large numbers of parts on a daily basis would want one. In my case, I'd rather direct the money to another machine some day. I can work either way though I'm more likely to blue and scribe lines when using dials to keep me honest. I use my ever present 6" (or larger----I have them up to 24") scale, and rarely, if ever, make a layout. I use layout fluid for rough cutting, which I mostly do on a bandsaw. The time it takes to do the layout appears to be more than repaid in less time on the mill - I think. I tend not to make layouts beyond that, because it would usually be an extra step. I either fly-cut to thickness (kinda tough on the layout fluid left over from roughing), or am too chicken to clean rough cuts to the layout. As soon as I hit clean metal, I stop and begin cleaning the other side. The result is that my rough layout is always shifted just a little, so any further layout would be shifted too. Every so often a layout survives long enough to be useful in approaching final dimensions, and they are indeed helpful. Bill |
#21
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How to paint dials on mill?
I can't speak for him, nor for his religion------but I, too, don't use a
DRO, Never have, and likely never will. Nice part about this is I can keep working should the DRO die, which many would find challenging. It takes considerable experience to use dials reliably. I can too, but the DRO saves time. I could drive nails with a rock, but a hammer works better. -- -- Stupendous Man Defender of Liberty, Advocate of Justice |
#22
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How to paint dials on mill?
"Stupendous Man" wrote in message ... I can't speak for him, nor for his religion------but I, too, don't use a DRO, Never have, and likely never will. Nice part about this is I can keep working should the DRO die, which many would find challenging. It takes considerable experience to use dials reliably. I can too, but the DRO saves time. I could drive nails with a rock, but a hammer works better. Never argued that point. The question is, can you work comfortably with the rock? I can. I'm damned proud of that skill, which came at great expense. In order for any of this to make sense, you must work along side someone that has my type of training. You'll come to realize that a DRO isn't a necessity-----it's a luxury that can be done without. YMMV. If you think your DRO will substitute for my practical experience, you're in for one hell of a lumpy ride. I've had the best challenge me on machines. They don't often fair well. You have to understand that those of us that worked without such luxuries learned to work well without them. Harold |
#23
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How to paint dials on mill?
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Stupendous Man" wrote in message ... I can't speak for him, nor for his religion------but I, too, don't use a DRO, Never have, and likely never will. Nice part about this is I can keep working should the DRO die, which many would find challenging. It takes considerable experience to use dials reliably. I can too, but the DRO saves time. I could drive nails with a rock, but a hammer works better. Never argued that point. The question is, can you work comfortably with the rock? I can. I'm damned proud of that skill, which came at great expense. In order for any of this to make sense, you must work along side someone that has my type of training. You'll come to realize that a DRO isn't a necessity-----it's a luxury that can be done without. YMMV. If you think your DRO will substitute for my practical experience, you're in for one hell of a lumpy ride. I've had the best challenge me on machines. They don't often fair well. You have to understand that those of us that worked without such luxuries learned to work well without them. Harold Heck, Harold, The dials on the machine are a luxury that can be done without. There were an awful lot of lathes that did not have them at all, that made parts purely on the skill and experience of their operators, using comparative measuring equipment,and by fit and feel. That it can be done that way, is by no means an endorsment that it can ONLY be done that way. I rather like the example you gave of using thumb pressure to control the grinder cut for fine finishing passes. I have done the same on the lathe, though not in order to get to as fine a limit, and demonstrated that simply pushing on the carriage of the lathe, will make a difference in the cut, as will leaning on the machine while it takes a long slow, and fine pass. I have read that they has accurately measured the tidal influences in a teacup sitting on a table. Shows that if you are picky enough, and have measuring capability, you can account for a great many things, that each have their influence on the final product. Cheers Trevor Jones |
#24
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How to paint dials on mill?
I have read that they has accurately measured the tidal influences in a
teacup sitting on a table. Shows that if you are picky enough, and have measuring capability, you can account for a great many things, that each have their influence on the final product. I think that its possible you could read the heart rate and any conversation of a lathe operator from the tool marks, much like an Edison Grammaphone. -- -- Stupendous Man Defender of Liberty, Advocate of Justice |
#25
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How to paint dials on mill?
"Trevor Jones" wrote in message news:xbe3j.33068$Zn.12644@edtnps90... snip-----. That it can be done that way, is by no means an endorsment that it can ONLY be done that way. I didn't imply that. That is in your imagination. I simply stated that I prefer working that way, and included, somewhere ":YMMV". Harold |
#26
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How to paint dials on mill?
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Trevor Jones" wrote in message news:xbe3j.33068$Zn.12644@edtnps90... snip-----. That it can be done that way, is by no means an endorsment that it can ONLY be done that way. I didn't imply that. That is in your imagination. I simply stated that I prefer working that way, and included, somewhere ":YMMV". Harold Gang, if anything, the "it can only be done that way" crowd is on the DRO side of the debate. I am grateful to Harold and others for taking the time to explain the manual approach to me. All the fuss over backlash (which is pretty much reflexive to me now) paid off recently when it came time to align an RT with the spindle and then cope with angles on the RT. Just my 2 cents. Bill |
#27
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How to paint dials on mill?
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Trevor Jones" wrote in message news:xbe3j.33068$Zn.12644@edtnps90... snip-----. That it can be done that way, is by no means an endorsment that it can ONLY be done that way. I didn't imply that. That is in your imagination. I simply stated that I prefer working that way, and included, somewhere ":YMMV". Harold I didna say you did, Harold. I simply made a statement to the effect that just because it can be done one way, that it inna the only way. I'm not trying to pick on ya. Really! :-) Cheers Trevor Jones |
#28
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How to paint dials on mill?
"Trevor Jones" wrote in message news:Lun3j.10216$Ji6.3791@edtnps89... Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: "Trevor Jones" wrote in message news:xbe3j.33068$Zn.12644@edtnps90... snip-----. That it can be done that way, is by no means an endorsment that it can ONLY be done that way. I didn't imply that. That is in your imagination. I simply stated that I prefer working that way, and included, somewhere ":YMMV". Harold I didna say you did, Harold. I simply made a statement to the effect that just because it can be done one way, that it inna the only way. I'm not trying to pick on ya. Really! :-) Cheers Trevor Jones If you'd like to be realistic, and this is sure to raise a few eyebrows------the use of a DRO is a perfect avoidance of learning good and proper procedures. For one, when a DRO is employed, operators tend to disregard backlash----which is ever present, and can be difficult for reasons beyond positioning properly. Want me to say it another way? A DRO is often used in the same way insert carbide tooling is used----to avoid learning something that requires considerable effort. You might say it's the great equalizer------but it's not. That's my point. Those of us that learned machining the hard way learned from the ground up, and can perform tasks routinely that many find difficult, or impossible. Do I recommend against a DRO? Hell no-----but I do recommend against a DRO if it comes at the price on never learning to work with dials. Dials are always there for you-----and in the hands of talented people, can serve exceedingly well. Example? Much of the tooling I built had tolerances in tenths. In all my years in the shop, I worked exclusively with screws, and I had just common machine tools, nothing exotic. I learned to operate my equipment properly------something that surely would not have occurred had I used cheat methods. Smoke 'em if you've got 'em, but don't go out of your way to buy 'em if you have any talent at all. They're not all they're cracked up to be, and they'll deprive you of a valuable learning experience. The money spent in a DRO could be far better spent on more equipment that actually contributed to one's shop. Harold |
#29
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How to paint dials on mill?
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Trevor Jones" wrote in message news:Lun3j.10216$Ji6.3791@edtnps89... Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: "Trevor Jones" wrote in message news:xbe3j.33068$Zn.12644@edtnps90... snip-----. That it can be done that way, is by no means an endorsment that it can ONLY be done that way. I didn't imply that. That is in your imagination. I simply stated that I prefer working that way, and included, somewhere ":YMMV". Harold I didna say you did, Harold. I simply made a statement to the effect that just because it can be done one way, that it inna the only way. I'm not trying to pick on ya. Really! :-) Cheers Trevor Jones If you'd like to be realistic, and this is sure to raise a few eyebrows------the use of a DRO is a perfect avoidance of learning good and proper procedures. For one, when a DRO is employed, operators tend to disregard backlash----which is ever present, and can be difficult for reasons beyond positioning properly. Want me to say it another way? A DRO is often used in the same way insert carbide tooling is used----to avoid learning something that requires considerable effort. You might say it's the great equalizer------but it's not. That's my point. Those of us that learned machining the hard way learned from the ground up, and can perform tasks routinely that many find difficult, or impossible. Do I recommend against a DRO? Hell no-----but I do recommend against a DRO if it comes at the price on never learning to work with dials. Dials are always there for you-----and in the hands of talented people, can serve exceedingly well. Example? Much of the tooling I built had tolerances in tenths. In all my years in the shop, I worked exclusively with screws, and I had just common machine tools, nothing exotic. I learned to operate my equipment properly------something that surely would not have occurred had I used cheat methods. Smoke 'em if you've got 'em, but don't go out of your way to buy 'em if you have any talent at all. They're not all they're cracked up to be, and they'll deprive you of a valuable learning experience. The money spent in a DRO could be far better spent on more equipment that actually contributed to one's shop. Harold I like having the DRO on the machines at work. I have work to do, and they are a tool that allows me to just get on with it. That said, I have used the same machines, when the DRO was not working, and the dials were missing (machine crash, my doing). It was different, but the parts I made, met the tolerances, and went out on time. Just took a bit longer. To the backlash issue. In our shop, backlash IS an issue. DRO or no, one learns rapidly, that if one is going to make a decent part repeatably, one must learn to set up the machine for repeatable results. shrug It's just the way it is. Machining and getting good results, is no less a learned skill, whether it is done with dials, without, or with CNC. End results count for bonus points, rather than the means. I got no problems holding the tolerances "I" must meet. I got my doubts that I would not have a few skeletons in the chip pile (or a LOT of them!)if I were required to meet the tolerances you call out as normal for the parts you made. Different stuff than most of us have to deal with, and overkill, for most work. One of the things I have to deal with, with our apprentices, is getting them past the idea that they MUST get within a half thou, on a part that states a 20 thou tolerance. Spend the time on the part, that it calls for, not more. Careful work on the high tolerance parts. Fast work on the low tolerance stuff. Get it out, within spec. I suspect, Harold, that the machines you used were uncommon. They were like as not, actual good, solidly built, and reasonably well maintained machines from good makers, chosen for the shop, as having the ability to work within the tolerances required. Likely a fair far cry from a lathe like a South Bend 9", eh? Trade in your Graziano on a nice benchtop 10" asian product and the reality of working to your old levels, is just a bit different. :-)Ugh! Wadda 'orrible thought! Were it not for the fact that a decent DRO to fit my lathe and mill, would run me near what I have invested in them, I would have one on each machine in my home "shop". They are nice to have, but not an absolute requirement. For a guy with eyesight on the go, that can afford one for his hobby, I think a DRO can make life just a little bit more enjoyable. I agree wholeheartedly with the comment about Carbide tooling! It too is nice to have for some things, but too often is used as a crutch to avoid learning how to grind tools. It always surprises me to see otherwise rational and capable folk, that truly beleive that grinding a lathe tool is beyond them.. Cheers Trevor Jones |
#30
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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How to paint dials on mill?
"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
news:Mgz3j.10282$Ji6.7436@edtnps89... Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: snip----- I got no problems holding the tolerances "I" must meet. I got my doubts that I would not have a few skeletons in the chip pile (or a LOT of them!)if I were required to meet the tolerances you call out as normal for the parts you made. Different stuff than most of us have to deal with, and overkill, for most work. Don't get the wrong impression. Much of the work I did as a toolmaker wasn't close at all. Even when building a challenging tool, often the majority of tolerances were wide open, with many of the dimensions at my discretion. Assembly hardware for a tool was rarely, if ever, dimensioned. It's expected that a toolmaker know enough about what he's doing to make those decisions. Location of assembling screws and dowel pins, when I build tools, is always such that similar components, or identical components, can't be mounted in the wrong position. They are features that don't matter, and do not receive inspection. The point is, when it's necessary, I can do it, and do it with reliability. I've crowed about this before, but I'll make mention again. I ran my shop for 16 years. I had work in house from Litton Guidance & Control for the entire duration of my operation. In those 16 years, I had five rejects. I didn't accept any work with a tolerance under a tenth, for I was unable to work to such a tolerance with what I had at my disposal. None of the work that was rejected was because of missing dimensions-----although I recall in one case a tool was rejected because I had failed to include an engraved line. That happens when you have your head in a dark place! :-) One of the things I have to deal with, with our apprentices, is getting them past the idea that they MUST get within a half thou, on a part that states a 20 thou tolerance. Spend the time on the part, that it calls for, not more. Careful work on the high tolerance parts. Fast work on the low tolerance stuff. Get it out, within spec. That is a common argument with people of today, and I propose to you that's exactly one of the reasons why it's so hard to find qualified people. If you think you can turn out work running from one end of the tolerance to the other and become a fine machinist in the process, you've missed something, somewhere. Mind you, I'm not here to tell you how to work, nor how to formulate your work ethic------but one thing I can and will tell you is if you turn out every job using hack processes, you'll never be a decent machinist. When challenged to do the type of work I mentioned, you'll be at a loss, and will have success mainly from good fortune, if at all. That isn't at all how I worked----and would have proven to be my downfall had I. The time you spend learning how to work closely is the time needed to hone skills that are required to do so. Those that don't spend the time will generally suffer when it comes time to do fine work. My years in the shop have proven that to me beyond any doubt. We, here in America, are sucking a hind tit these days because the bar has been lowered to the point where pride in one's workmanship has become secondary to making that fast buck. Even management has encouraged the concept, and has paid dearly as a result. The vast majority of work that left our shores in the 70's (auto production, for example) was driven far more by **** poor quality than anything else I can imagine. Couple that with unearned wages, and we were doomed to the hard times we endured. Funny thing is, it appear a lesson that we don't learn well. Just recently I heard a Ford commercial in which they were extolling the virtues of improved quality. What the hell happened to the improved quality they discussed when they started losing business back in the late 70's, and early 80's, when they bragged of improving? It appears we're long on lip service and damned short on service.. I suspect, Harold, that the machines you used were uncommon. They were like as not, actual good, solidly built, and reasonably well maintained machines from good makers, chosen for the shop, as having the ability to work within the tolerances required. They were exactly as you described-----common industrial rated machines, everything but my Bridgeport, that is. A Bridgeport is one of the most over rated machines I've ever encountered. It lacks the quality of what I would consider acceptable machines, but they offered something that none of the others did----a very flexible machine that was affordable. I paid less than $3,000 for my first BP, new, including a vise and collets. My second one, purchased in the mid 70's, cost more, about $7,000 as I recall. When I purchased my first mill, a new EE Monarch could be purchased for $10,000 (1967). Had I had the resources, that's exactly what I would have purchased in place of my Sag 12 Graziano, which cost about $4,600, with a 2 speed motor. Base price was less------about $4,100. I had to make a request for the two speed, which was not offered in their literature. Likely a fair far cry from a lathe like a South Bend 9", eh? Trade in your Graziano on a nice benchtop 10" asian product and the reality of working to your old levels, is just a bit different. :-)Ugh! Wadda 'orrible thought! Yes-----I agree. By contrast, none of my work, sans one optical gauge, was done on anything but my Graziano or BP. I rented time on a P&W jig borer for one component for the optical gauge, which was very difficult to machine because of the tolerance involved. Were it not for the fact that a decent DRO to fit my lathe and mill, would run me near what I have invested in them, I would have one on each machine in my home "shop". They are nice to have, but not an absolute requirement. That's been my point right along. I've never suggested they shouldn't be used-----but I do suggest they not be used as a dodge for experience. Not if a person desires to become proficient at machining. You might look at this in the same way that an apprentice used to start out sweeping floors, and worked his way up the ladder. If you don't learn to use dials, a big part of necessary experience is circumvented. Not saying a person can't achieve results, not at all-----but I am saying the said person will be lacking in areas that will create shortcomings in their output. For a guy with eyesight on the go, that can afford one for his hobby, I think a DRO can make life just a little bit more enjoyable. Again, no argument-----but even my tired 68 year old eyes can still work tenths on a dial that is hard to read with good eyes. It's more about being a machinist than having the latest and best cheat devices. A moron running an EE Monarch with a DRO will still be a moron, in other words. I agree wholeheartedly with the comment about Carbide tooling! It too is nice to have for some things, but too often is used as a crutch to avoid learning how to grind tools. It always surprises me to see otherwise rational and capable folk, that truly beleive that grinding a lathe tool is beyond them.. I agree-------and it's something that you simply can't learn from reading. The skills necessary come from application of knowledge that comes from books, that I'll grant you, but just like you can't read a book and learn to play a piano, you can't read a book and learn to grind toolbits. I've never failed in grinding a toolbit ---even difficult configurations---but then I told myself long ago that I can grind toolbits-----I never limited my skills by suggesting that I couldn't. It's all about attitude, and paying attention. Once you figure out the characteristics of a wheel, and understand when it's time to dress, the rest is nothing but repetition. I can teach anyone to grind a tool in minutes------although it may take a person a few weeks to gain the confidence I have------and I have plenty. If you're interested in reading some of my ravings, a gentlemen compiled several threads and posted them as a single download. I've never read what was compiled----I'm on a dreadfully slow dialup------but if you'd like to peruse what I had to say, not only about grinding HSS, but grinders and wheels, here's a link for the download: http://www.savefile.com/files/915454 Harold |
#31
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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How to paint dials on mill?
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
One of the things I have to deal with, with our apprentices, is getting them past the idea that they MUST get within a half thou, on a part that states a 20 thou tolerance. Spend the time on the part, that it calls for, not more. Careful work on the high tolerance parts. Fast work on the low tolerance stuff. Get it out, within spec. That is a common argument with people of today, and I propose to you that's exactly one of the reasons why it's so hard to find qualified people. If you think you can turn out work running from one end of the tolerance to the other and become a fine machinist in the process, you've missed something, somewhere. I dunno if yer gettin the level of this. Had a guy using the mill to cut off a bunch of mild steel, to be used as spacers in a weldement. Late in the day, he was still at making his dozen parts. Wanted to know where the stock was. I had pointed him at two full sticks, earlier that day. I found them, cut into tidy pieces, in the scrap bin. HE did not like that the parts were only within 5 thou of the dimension that was on the page, so he was still trying to get it bang-on. I kicked his sorry ass out to the dumpster, and told him to use the ****ing cutting torch like he had been told in the first place. The guy was about to cut up another full bar, to get dimensions that were WAY beyond the tolerances required. I had to watch, pretty much in agony, while another guy spent two days making 8 bushings. They were to be cold shrunk in. Aluminum. 5/8 inch 7075 barstock. Looks like a countersunk head screw, with a hole through the middle. Tolerances are to within 2-5 tenths. Two ****ing whole days! Should have taken him about 8 minutes per bushing. Less, if he was able to think at a speed that would allow him to breathe and walk at the same time. That was AFTER I ground the form tool, and set up the lathe, and demonstrated the making of the first one (which came out as a useable bushing BTW) Nothing wrong with being willing to do good work. I just have little patience for those that do not put a little effort into applying a reasonable level of appropriate work into the job in front of them. Trying to work to tenths, on a job that could be marked in crayon and cut with a torch, is an innappropriate use of time and facilities. And there are some people that are in over their heads, emptying garbage cans. Mind you, I'm not here to tell you how to work, nor how to formulate your work ethic------but one thing I can and will tell you is if you turn out every job using hack processes, you'll never be a decent machinist. When challenged to do the type of work I mentioned, you'll be at a loss, and will have success mainly from good fortune, if at all. That isn't at all how I worked----and would have proven to be my downfall had I. I try to do good work all the time. Less comebacks. Equals less headaches for me. We have, historically, always been able to find the time to fix stuff that was done poorly, in a rush. By that alone, I figure we have the time to do it right the first time. I have no problem with being a surly prick, when dealing with guys trying to pressure me to get something done in a hurry, or to take shortcuts, either. I had one boss that developed a bit of a twitch. When he would ask how long a job was going to take, I would give it some thought, and tell him, "two weeks". Got to the point where he stopped asking me. The work got done faster, without the interuptions. He was happier, I was happier. The time you spend learning how to work closely is the time needed to hone skills that are required to do so. Those that don't spend the time will generally suffer when it comes time to do fine work. We do a lot of small, cold shrunk, then reamed to size, bushings in our shop. Tolerances to a couple tenths are typical, if you want them to work out. We have enough guys here that are able to produce at those levels, that we are able to carry on. In our shop, that is the kind of job that requires the fine work, and the fine work is applied. There is nought to gain, and much time to be spent, trying to apply the same work to putting points on steel grounding stakes, or on other jobs that could have as well been done with angle grinders or cutting torches. snippage If you're interested in reading some of my ravings, a gentlemen compiled several threads and posted them as a single download. I've never read what was compiled----I'm on a dreadfully slow dialup------but if you'd like to peruse what I had to say, not only about grinding HSS, but grinders and wheels, here's a link for the download: http://www.savefile.com/files/915454 I'll see if I can get registered and get it downloaded. Cheers Trevor Jones |
#32
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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How to paint dials on mill?
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
If you're interested in reading some of my ravings, a gentlemen compiled several threads and posted them as a single download. I've never read what was compiled----I'm on a dreadfully slow dialup------but if you'd like to peruse what I had to say, not only about grinding HSS, but grinders and wheels, here's a link for the download: http://www.savefile.com/files/915454 Harold I got the file down and printed it out. The only thing negative, that I have to say about it, is that it, when viewed from the perspective of a rank novice, would serve tidily as a deterrent to ever going near a metalworking tool. It does make it seem like everything must be "just so" or you will not have any success at all. Great info for an advanced beginner or at least a somewhat more experienced metalworker, though. Very well written, and you are able to communicate the ideas you are presenting in a very clear manner. That is how it seemed to me, in any case. Worth the read. The tools that you show there are a bit different than those I use regularly. I use a lot of 3/16" and 1/4" HSS tools, either flat on top, or ground with a fair bit of top rake. I use a lot of small boring bars, ground very similarly to the one shown. I can confess to doing most roughing operations with Carbide, as it is available and convenient, and when I must, I grind larger HSS tools, but for the most part, the work that requires the finer tolerances, is generally quite small, so small tool bits suffice. I do try to get the apprentices thinking in terms of how they can get the most use out of a single set-up, and to think about minimizing tool changes and losses of zeros, and try to pound into them that the reason they have a quick change toolpost is to AVOID having to loosen it off to turn it about, and then having to pick up their zeros all over again. Threatened to put the lantern tool post back on the lathe, for one guy, before he got that clue. I make it sound like all the apprentices are a bunch of clueless thickies. Not all of them. I have several co-workers now, that came through in the last few years and showed aptitude and willingness to learn from their experiences, and the willingness to do good work, rather than the minimum possible. Not allowed to beat the apprentices. Too bad. Some could use it. Cheers Trevor Jones |
#33
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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How to paint dials on mill?
"Trevor Jones" wrote in message news:en14j.10506$Ji6.1223@edtnps89... Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: If you're interested in reading some of my ravings, a gentlemen compiled several threads and posted them as a single download. I've never read what was compiled----I'm on a dreadfully slow dialup------but if you'd like to peruse what I had to say, not only about grinding HSS, but grinders and wheels, here's a link for the download: http://www.savefile.com/files/915454 Harold I got the file down and printed it out. The only thing negative, that I have to say about it, is that it, when viewed from the perspective of a rank novice, would serve tidily as a deterrent to ever going near a metalworking tool. It does make it seem like everything must be "just so" or you will not have any success at all. To be quite frank, I do not suffer fools gladly. Anyone with an aptitude can learn from what I had posted, and become very proficient at grinding tools. Yes---I fully expect them to pay attention to my words. I'm VERY good at grinding tools, even now. Do the math. How many folks do you know that can grind decent tools? To convey the idea that all you have to do is stab a toolbit at a grinding wheel and it will cut is a disservice to anyone that desires to learn to grind them. Tools cut for known reasons, so you must conform to the guidelines involved, otherwise you're not going to experience the outcome you may desire. A rank novice shouldn't be deceived into thinking there's nothing to it, for that's not true. The big difference is, what I describe isn't beyond the ability of anyone that has enough sense to come in out of the rain, and has the ability to follow simple instructions. The rest is no different from learning to play a musical instrument----practice until you have it down. Great info for an advanced beginner or at least a somewhat more experienced metalworker, though. Very well written, and you are able to communicate the ideas you are presenting in a very clear manner. That is how it seemed to me, in any case. Worth the read. Thanks for the kind words. One of my biggest fears when I first started posting was that I would be unable to convey my message in such a way that it was meaningful. I have no education beyond high school, and was a miserable student with a C average in English. I was never known for my writing prowess and considered that I may not be able to put two words together. English was one of the classes that provided a generous portion of my sleeping hours, I'm not proud to say. I have had others comment that I appear to be able provide useful information, but it's always nice to hear it from those that are experienced. The tools that you show there are a bit different than those I use regularly. I use a lot of 3/16" and 1/4" HSS tools, either flat on top, or ground with a fair bit of top rake. I use a lot of small boring bars, ground very similarly to the one shown. Size isn't a factor, as you likely understand. The principles remain the same. Get the theory down, then practice grinding until it makes sense and you achieve the desired results. Abandoning a grinding rest (for grinding HSS) is one of the best things a guy can do, but it requires a complete different mindset in order to be successful. It's not an easy transition, but well worth the effort. OSHA is likely to take a dim view. They have no authority over the home shop, however. I can confess to doing most roughing operations with Carbide, as it is available and convenient, and when I must, I grind larger HSS tools, but for the most part, the work that requires the finer tolerances, is generally quite small, so small tool bits suffice. I also used my share of carbide, often because it would move metal at a faster rate------but guys with small lathes, fractional HP motors, especially low speed, should be discouraged at every turn from emulating that process. It's a total waste of time, expensive in the scheme of things, but, worst of all, it deprives a person from learning to grind good and useful tools-----which will hold a person captive until rectified. Nothing turns me off quicker than to encounter a damned yokel that proclaims himself a "machinist", yet he/she can't grind the simplest of tools. Sort of like a guy with a buzz box in his garage, proudly proclaiming to the world the he's a "welder". I've know weldors, most of whom are certified. You can believe me when I tell you, a guy that can't grind toolbits is to a machinist what a guy with a buzz box in his garage is to a weldor. I make it sound like all the apprentices are a bunch of clueless thickies. Not all of them. I have several co-workers now, that came through in the last few years and showed aptitude and willingness to learn from their experiences, and the willingness to do good work, rather than the minimum possible. You are witnessing, in my opinion, the end product of children having been raised by parents that have never had to pay a price for anything in their life. Everything has been handed to these folks, so they don't equate effort with reward. It's not just in your shop-----it's everywhere. Many of the workers of today have absolutely no pride in what they do------but a burning desire to make a ton of money. That idea does NOT a machinist make. It's safe to say that many of these guys haven't yet learned that you have to work---and apply yourself. They will----it's just a matter of time. Some will drop out. We see them living under bridges. A select few will make you proud. I know. My mentor showcased me regularly. Upper management wanted to fire me because I was like those you complain about. One day it all changed, thanks to that wonderful man, Jay Dobson, how deceased. I owe him everything I became. Few have the innate ability to make a good machinist. I witnessed that when I was in training. It was obvious that some of the guys that got involved were not suited. One guy, in particular, was the son of a machinist, so he followed in his father's footsteps. He could have stayed in the shop for his lifetime and wouldn't have been worth hiring. It simply wasn't his cup of tea. By sharp contrast, many of those that were my peers went on to become fine machinists, with a disproportionate number of them eventually starting their own shops. All but one that I can recall were successful. I'll repeat another example I mentioned recently. One of the trainees was obviously not happy in the shop. He quit and became an embalmer/undertaker. While I never talked to him after he left training, his cousin, who was one of the QC personnel, told me that he was well pleased with his new career. As I said, not everyone is cut out to be a machinist. Not allowed to beat the apprentices. Too bad. Some could use it. Cheers Trevor Jones Management as well. I had one foreman that I'd have slapped senseless given the opportunity. He, single handedly, threw more cold water on me and my ability than any other individual I ever encountered. He was clearly intimidated by anyone with skill and talent, likely fearing for his job. He displayed his contempt for me regularly by passing me over for overtime work, yet inviting others, many of which were far less productive. I solved that riddle my leaving the job, which wasn't much of one, anyway. Good people seek their level. It became obvious to me that running my own business was the level that was appropriate. Turns out, it was. :-) Harold |
#34
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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How to paint dials on mill?
"Trevor Jones" wrote in message news:WyU3j.15039$HH2.3107@edtnps82... Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: One of the things I have to deal with, with our apprentices, is getting them past the idea that they MUST get within a half thou, on a part that states a 20 thou tolerance. Spend the time on the part, that it calls for, not more. Careful work on the high tolerance parts. Fast work on the low tolerance stuff. Get it out, within spec. That is a common argument with people of today, and I propose to you that's exactly one of the reasons why it's so hard to find qualified people. If you think you can turn out work running from one end of the tolerance to the other and become a fine machinist in the process, you've missed something, somewhere. I dunno if yer gettin the level of this. Oh, but I am. You're trying to make money, and he's trying to learn.. They don't often go hand in hand. Had a guy using the mill to cut off a bunch of mild steel, to be used as spacers in a weldement. Late in the day, he was still at making his dozen parts. Wanted to know where the stock was. I had pointed him at two full sticks, earlier that day. I found them, cut into tidy pieces, in the scrap bin. HE did not like that the parts were only within 5 thou of the dimension that was on the page, so he was still trying to get it bang-on. I kicked his sorry ass out to the dumpster, and told him to use the ****ing cutting torch like he had been told in the first place. The guy was about to cut up another full bar, to get dimensions that were WAY beyond the tolerances required. And this person has extensive experience? He's likely in the process of learning, and has yet to distinguish that which is important. If his mindset is as you suggest, he likely will make one of the best machinists--when he has enough experience. It doesn't come by hack work. If I had a guy that displayed what you described, I'd move him to work in keeping with his desires, so he'd hone his skills. I had to watch, pretty much in agony, while another guy spent two days making 8 bushings. They were to be cold shrunk in. Aluminum. 5/8 inch 7075 barstock. Looks like a countersunk head screw, with a hole through the middle. Tolerances are to within 2-5 tenths. Two ****ing whole days! Should have taken him about 8 minutes per bushing. Less, if he was able to think at a speed that would allow him to breathe and walk at the same time. That was AFTER I ground the form tool, and set up the lathe, and demonstrated the making of the first one (which came out as a useable bushing BTW) And this guy is a journeyman? You may be able to do it that way, but he must learn the process before he can. I share your frustration, but to expect a level of performance in keeping with a journeyman, assuming he's not one, is a tall order. As I said, these people may turn out to be good machinists, but if they are shown nothing but hack work, they WILL struggle when they must do fine work, just as I described previously. You just presented a perfect example, assuming he's really trying. Nothing wrong with being willing to do good work. I just have little patience for those that do not put a little effort into applying a reasonable level of appropriate work into the job in front of them. Trying to work to tenths, on a job that could be marked in crayon and cut with a torch, is an innappropriate use of time and facilities. And there are some people that are in over their heads, emptying garbage cans. You must sort those that can from those that can't------and it's not often evident which is which. I'm living proof. Mind you, I'm not here to tell you how to work, nor how to formulate your work ethic------but one thing I can and will tell you is if you turn out every job using hack processes, you'll never be a decent machinist. When challenged to do the type of work I mentioned, you'll be at a loss, and will have success mainly from good fortune, if at all. That isn't at all how I worked----and would have proven to be my downfall had I. I try to do good work all the time. Less comebacks. Equals less headaches for me. We have, historically, always been able to find the time to fix stuff that was done poorly, in a rush. By that alone, I figure we have the time to do it right the first time. Exactly my thoughts------but there may be a huge difference in what you find acceptable and what I find acceptable. Our backgrounds may not have a great deal in common-----so it's hard to judge your position. I never promoted the concept of dashing through a job by sacrificing quality, but I was in complete control, unlike you, where you are at the mercy of the abilities of others. I have no problem with being a surly prick, when dealing with guys trying to pressure me to get something done in a hurry, or to take shortcuts, either. That is not an issue. If a person doesn't want a job done well, they had the wrong shop. No guarantee it would turn out perfectly as they might desire, but if not, it wasn't because my best effort hadn't been applied. Again, if you learn to do good work, you can usually turn it out just as fast as a hacker, but with quality. BUT-----and this is important------it must be practiced. The reward comes long afterwards, when jobs aren't returned because of defective workmanship. Of course, in today's society, I'm not sure anyone knows the difference. They sure as hell did when I was engaged in machining, that you can believe. I had one boss that developed a bit of a twitch. When he would ask how long a job was going to take, I would give it some thought, and tell him, "two weeks". Got to the point where he stopped asking me. The work got done faster, without the interuptions. He was happier, I was happier. A good manager won't make his presence known, assuming you're doing your work properly. He/she fully expects you'll make him/her look good, so they'll be very supportive of you and your decisions. If you find that's not how things are, you must explore yourself, and him/her, to determine which is lacking. The time you spend learning how to work closely is the time needed to hone skills that are required to do so. Those that don't spend the time will generally suffer when it comes time to do fine work. We do a lot of small, cold shrunk, then reamed to size, bushings in our shop. Tolerances to a couple tenths are typical, if you want them to work out. We have enough guys here that are able to produce at those levels, that we are able to carry on. Then that's where the work should go-------unless you feel a need to bring along younger guys. A well run shop will qualify their workers for all tasks, however. You never know when you'll lose a key employee----the very guy that handles the tough work. You have to suffer through a few of those guys that are striving to hold that .005" tolerance you suggested was a waste of time. That's how they learn. In our shop, that is the kind of job that requires the fine work, and the fine work is applied. There is nought to gain, and much time to be spent, trying to apply the same work to putting points on steel grounding stakes, or on other jobs that could have as well been done with angle grinders or cutting torches. Doesn't sound like a place for a machinist. There's a big difference between a place that requires a machinist, and a place that machines a little metal, if you get my drift. A good example is a generator (automotive) shop. They turn armatures regularly, but the man running the miserable little lathe is hardly a machinist. Yet he gets the armatures turned and undercut. It's all in your perspective, isn't it! Harold |
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