Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Update on the Containerized shop

Brent wrote:

On Sep 11, 11:05 pm, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Sep 11, 8:02 am, "Pete C." wrote:



Too_Many_Tools wrote:


On Sep 10, 5:42 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
"Wayne C. Gramlich" wrote:


Brent wrote:
[snip]


The container is delivered and resting on eight pads made up of a pair
of 4 inch solid concrete blocks. For the most part not all are
touching but if there is any settling the open ones will start taking
the load


When it is time to ship the container, how hard is it
for a shipper to pick it up off the concrete pads? Is
this a "standard procedure" or "time to rent a special
crane" or "something else"?


[snip]


Thanks,


-Wayne


Easy to pick up. For non port pickup and delivery of containers
hydraulic tilting flatbed trailers with big winches are the norm. They
could very easily drag the container onto the trailer as is, or for a
little more refinement jack the container off the blocks and onto some
pipe rollers first.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Good point....maybe now is a good time to attach the machines to a
false floor so if and when you move later they are already secured.


TMT


False floor??? The container floor is already 25mm hardwood plywood over
steel C channel on about 12" centers. Bolt directly through that floor,
can use big washers or load plates underneath as well.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


I mention a false floor because metalworking machines can be
heavy...very heavy.

If I had a Bridgeport in such container, I would want it securely
attached to the floor when the container was relocated.

Also a false floor allows one to rearrange machinery without
butchering up the main flooring and allows one the ability to run
cables and ducts under it.

TMT


TMT

I have an Index Model 45 its about bridgeport sized maybe a bit bogger
and i DO share your concerns about bolting it

but i will need to both BOLT and level it and right now it has
levelling screws in the base.

but since moving the container is a Secondary concern to making it
into a valid shop for now i'm not THAT worried about how to bolt it to
the floor for another year or so. also if there is to be any settling
i expect it to happen inthe first winter and spring and i will need to
likely re-levle the machine once the ground thaws


Enlarge the base mounting holes as necessary, tap them and then use
hollow leveling bolts with second anchor bolts through them. Washer
plates on top of the floor for the leveling bolts to run on of course.
Re-level with any container shifts without removing the anchor bolts. My
Clausing lathe uses this type of mounting to it's stand.
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Default Update on the Containerized shop

Brent wrote:

On Sep 11, 11:30 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
Nick Mueller wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


An insulated container that is kept at a controlled interior temperature
will not experience this issue any more than a house maintained at a
controlled interior temperature will.


Sorry, wrong.
You do have a temperature gradient looking at a section through the wall. At
the place where the temperature drops below the dew-point, you'll get
condensation. Preferably, that happens within the insulation-material,
supposing it can retain and transport humidity. If that is not the case you
get condensation. And this will be exactly at the inside of the metal
container. Styrofoam and that stuff glued to the inside of a wall is *the*
*worst* you can do. Except you are out for mushrooms.


Moisture doesn't magically appear to condense, it has to come from
somewhere. Neither the steel container, not extruded polystyrene
insulation are permeable so nothing of significance is going to happen
in the space between them. The interior surface is very unlikely to be
at dew point in a conditioned space so nothing is likely to happen there
either.



The difference to a house is, that the dew-point is *in* the brick-wall (oh,
you know what this is? G) and the brick can transport humidity to the
outside, especially if there is a humidity-stopping layer (or not as good
transporting, or much longer distance) on the inside of the wall. You get a
much better climate and much less humidity this way. No dehumidifier
needed.


Again with the steel container, EPS insulation and FRP paneling you have
a triple layer vapor barrier. Moisture outside stays outside, moisture
inside stays inside (normal vents remove it).



The only
source of moisture in the container will be one human intermittently
working in it, something normal ventilation will readily handle.


Sorry, wrong again. Relative humidity is the point. Warm outside, cool
inside and you ventilate - moisture inside. Just have a look at the water
running out of A/Cs.


Look at moisture running out of an A/C after it has been running in an
enclosed space for a while, and dehumidifying the space. Unless you're
doing something really stupid to allow a lot of moisture into the space,
it will remain dry and the A/C will operate more efficiently since it
won't have the added load of condensing moisture out of the air as well
as cooling the air.


OK so in my situation i could use a little feedback here

there are 4 passive vents in the corners of my container


Same on my non insulated 40' container. It sits through new england
seasons and has yet to have a moisture problem inside.


i know i'l likely need to leave these vents through but they will
allow humidity to enter too


Loose those vents, they won't be adequate for your intended use. Install
"real" venting in the form of RV vents, regular roof vents, or similar.


Because of my Climate i know i will need both Heating and Air
conditioning

Nick's statements about the dewpoint are valid the Container cools
faster than the ambient air once the sun is down so it will draw dew
if it cools past the dewpoint i will need to seal the inside walls
with a vapor barrier that is a given and i will need ot take steps to
de-humidify the shop.


You *do not* need a vapor barrier, it will accomplish absolutely
nothing. A vapor barrier is used in residential frame construction
because the wall materials are all permeable, steel is *not* permeable,
nor is extruded polystyrene insulation, nor FRP paneling.

the AC itself I primarily use to drop the
humidity to make work bearable rather than needing the temperature
itself to dropit seems that using Styrofoam the possibly after the
electric is run to call in a sprayfoam guy to seal behind it.


Run electrical in surface mounted EMT conduit. See the great power
upgrade 2006 on my site: http://wpnet.us for an example.

There is no reason to seal behind the polystyrene insulation that you
glue in place, other than for additional insulation and even that is
marginal. The cavities formed behind the insulation are sealed chambers
assuming you make proper use of the adhesive. None of the materials
involved are moisture permeable and the humidity in that chamber will
always be the same as the day it was sealed.


Should i fork over a little more for an AC to let it automatically run
to prevent condensation?


A separate dehumidifier if you find a need for it after you've completed
the rest and monitored it for a while. The separate dehumidifier will
function when heated in the winter to remove moisture tracked in from
snow on your boots.


Even if i'm not there if it senses that the dewpoint could be exceeded
it will trigger and dehumidify the shop?


Yes, separate dehumidifier. Before spending money on it however, spend
the $30 for a temp / humidity gauge with min/max and see what the spans
really are.


I'm investigating elsewhere too but there are no container conversion
experts local to me.

If i have to do something fancy to prevent condensation so be it, my
tools are worth an ounce of prevention and a few dollars of
dehumidifier runtime


Again, review what I've posted and just monitor to see if you have an
actual issue. Residential wood frames, plywood or OSB sheathing,
fiberglass insulation and drywall are all moisture permeable, steel, EPS
insulation and FRP panels are not.
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Default Update on the Containerized shop

"Pete C." wrote:

Brent wrote:


I'm investigating elsewhere too but there are no container conversion
experts local to me.


A container is no different than any other steel framed, steel skinned
structure - nothing magical. Just contact any of the numerous steel
building companies and ask them how they handle insulation and climate
control in one of their smaller buildings.
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Default Update on the Containerized shop

On Sep 11, 11:34 pm, (DoN. Nichols) wrote:
According to Brent :

[ ... ]

I am a big fan of overbuilding and already i'm not looking forward to
the budget preventing me form putting in windows this winter


Might I suggest that each window have an opaque panel which
could be swung in place or inserted to keep people from being able to
see what is in there when things are closed up? No sense in tempting
people -- depending on your neighborhood, of course.

Enjoy,
DoN.

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Good suggestion.

TMT

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Default Update on the Containerized shop

On Sep 12, 12:11 pm, Brent wrote:
On Sep 11, 11:05 pm, Too_Many_Tools wrote:





On Sep 11, 8:02 am, "Pete C." wrote:


Too_Many_Tools wrote:


On Sep 10, 5:42 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
"Wayne C. Gramlich" wrote:


Brent wrote:
[snip]


The container is delivered and resting on eight pads made up of a pair
of 4 inch solid concrete blocks. For the most part not all are
touching but if there is any settling the open ones will start taking
the load


When it is time to ship the container, how hard is it
for a shipper to pick it up off the concrete pads? Is
this a "standard procedure" or "time to rent a special
crane" or "something else"?


[snip]


Thanks,


-Wayne


Easy to pick up. For non port pickup and delivery of containers
hydraulic tilting flatbed trailers with big winches are the norm. They
could very easily drag the container onto the trailer as is, or for a
little more refinement jack the container off the blocks and onto some
pipe rollers first.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Good point....maybe now is a good time to attach the machines to a
false floor so if and when you move later they are already secured.


TMT


False floor??? The container floor is already 25mm hardwood plywood over
steel C channel on about 12" centers. Bolt directly through that floor,
can use big washers or load plates underneath as well.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


I mention a false floor because metalworking machines can be
heavy...very heavy.


If I had a Bridgeport in such container, I would want it securely
attached to the floor when the container was relocated.


Also a false floor allows one to rearrange machinery without
butchering up the main flooring and allows one the ability to run
cables and ducts under it.


TMT


TMT

I have an Index Model 45 its about bridgeport sized maybe a bit bogger
and i DO share your concerns about bolting it

but i will need to both BOLT and level it and right now it has
levelling screws in the base.

but since moving the container is a Secondary concern to making it
into a valid shop for now i'm not THAT worried about how to bolt it to
the floor for another year or so. also if there is to be any settling
i expect it to happen inthe first winter and spring and i will need to
likely re-levle the machine once the ground thaws- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I understand...I would not be paranoid about it but it is SO MUCH
EASIER to do this type of thing before the shop is FULL of
tools...guess how I know? ;)

Placing a mounting point in the back of the container will allow you
to use a winch to drag new items into the shop also.

TMT

TMT



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Default Update on the Containerized shop

On Sep 12, 12:41 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
Brent wrote:

On Sep 11, 11:30 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
Nick Mueller wrote:


Pete C. wrote:


An insulated container that is kept at a controlled interior temperature
will not experience this issue any more than a house maintained at a
controlled interior temperature will.


Sorry, wrong.
You do have a temperature gradient looking at a section through the wall. At
the place where the temperature drops below the dew-point, you'll get
condensation. Preferably, that happens within the insulation-material,
supposing it can retain and transport humidity. If that is not the case you
get condensation. And this will be exactly at the inside of the metal
container. Styrofoam and that stuff glued to the inside of a wall is *the*
*worst* you can do. Except you are out for mushrooms.


Moisture doesn't magically appear to condense, it has to come from
somewhere. Neither the steel container, not extruded polystyrene
insulation are permeable so nothing of significance is going to happen
in the space between them. The interior surface is very unlikely to be
at dew point in a conditioned space so nothing is likely to happen there
either.


The difference to a house is, that the dew-point is *in* the brick-wall (oh,
you know what this is? G) and the brick can transport humidity to the
outside, especially if there is a humidity-stopping layer (or not as good
transporting, or much longer distance) on the inside of the wall. You get a
much better climate and much less humidity this way. No dehumidifier
needed.


Again with the steel container, EPS insulation and FRP paneling you have
a triple layer vapor barrier. Moisture outside stays outside, moisture
inside stays inside (normal vents remove it).


The only
source of moisture in the container will be one human intermittently
working in it, something normal ventilation will readily handle.


Sorry, wrong again. Relative humidity is the point. Warm outside, cool
inside and you ventilate - moisture inside. Just have a look at the water
running out of A/Cs.


Look at moisture running out of an A/C after it has been running in an
enclosed space for a while, and dehumidifying the space. Unless you're
doing something really stupid to allow a lot of moisture into the space,
it will remain dry and the A/C will operate more efficiently since it
won't have the added load of condensing moisture out of the air as well
as cooling the air.


OK so in my situation i could use a little feedback here


there are 4 passive vents in the corners of my container


Same on my non insulated 40' container. It sits through new england
seasons and has yet to have a moisture problem inside.



i know i'l likely need to leave these vents through but they will
allow humidity to enter too


Loose those vents, they won't be adequate for your intended use. Install
"real" venting in the form of RV vents, regular roof vents, or similar.



Because of my Climate i know i will need both Heating and Air
conditioning


Nick's statements about the dewpoint are valid the Container cools
faster than the ambient air once the sun is down so it will draw dew
if it cools past the dewpoint i will need to seal the inside walls
with a vapor barrier that is a given and i will need ot take steps to
de-humidify the shop.


You *do not* need a vapor barrier, it will accomplish absolutely
nothing. A vapor barrier is used in residential frame construction
because the wall materials are all permeable, steel is *not* permeable,
nor is extruded polystyrene insulation, nor FRP paneling.

the AC itself I primarily use to drop the
humidity to make work bearable rather than needing the temperature
itself to dropit seems that using Styrofoam the possibly after the
electric is run to call in a sprayfoam guy to seal behind it.


Run electrical in surface mounted EMT conduit. See the great power
upgrade 2006 on my site:http://wpnet.usfor an example.

There is no reason to seal behind the polystyrene insulation that you
glue in place, other than for additional insulation and even that is
marginal. The cavities formed behind the insulation are sealed chambers
assuming you make proper use of the adhesive. None of the materials
involved are moisture permeable and the humidity in that chamber will
always be the same as the day it was sealed.



Should i fork over a little more for an AC to let it automatically run
to prevent condensation?


A separate dehumidifier if you find a need for it after you've completed
the rest and monitored it for a while. The separate dehumidifier will
function when heated in the winter to remove moisture tracked in from
snow on your boots.



Even if i'm not there if it senses that the dewpoint could be exceeded
it will trigger and dehumidify the shop?


Yes, separate dehumidifier. Before spending money on it however, spend
the $30 for a temp / humidity gauge with min/max and see what the spans
really are.



I'm investigating elsewhere too but there are no container conversion
experts local to me.


If i have to do something fancy to prevent condensation so be it, my
tools are worth an ounce of prevention and a few dollars of
dehumidifier runtime


Again, review what I've posted and just monitor to see if you have an
actual issue. Residential wood frames, plywood or OSB sheathing,
fiberglass insulation and drywall are all moisture permeable, steel, EPS
insulation and FRP panels are not.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Try to hang heating, A/C, dehumifier, dust control from the
ceiling....floor space is reserved for the heavy stuff.

TMT

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Default Update on the Containerized shop

In article . com,
Brent wrote:


Might I suggest that each window have an opaque panel which
could be swung in place or inserted to keep people from being able to
see what is in there when things are closed up? No sense in tempting
people -- depending on your neighborhood, of course.


I'm not too worried in this neighbourhood especially since form a shop
and thievery perspective the SNAP ON truck presents a far more
appealing target than my little shop. But thats not to say that its
not a very good preventative measure.


Still venetian blinds would be a good idea, it lets you control lighting
and can give privacy if you want.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/
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Default Update on the Containerized shop

On Sep 12, 4:19 pm, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Sep 12, 12:11 pm, Brent wrote:



On Sep 11, 11:05 pm, Too_Many_Tools wrote:


On Sep 11, 8:02 am, "Pete C." wrote:


Too_Many_Tools wrote:


On Sep 10, 5:42 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
"Wayne C. Gramlich" wrote:


Brent wrote:
[snip]


The container is delivered and resting on eight pads made up of a pair
of 4 inch solid concrete blocks. For the most part not all are
touching but if there is any settling the open ones will start taking
the load


When it is time to ship the container, how hard is it
for a shipper to pick it up off the concrete pads? Is
this a "standard procedure" or "time to rent a special
crane" or "something else"?


[snip]


Thanks,


-Wayne


Easy to pick up. For non port pickup and delivery of containers
hydraulic tilting flatbed trailers with big winches are the norm. They
could very easily drag the container onto the trailer as is, or for a
little more refinement jack the container off the blocks and onto some
pipe rollers first.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Good point....maybe now is a good time to attach the machines to a
false floor so if and when you move later they are already secured.


TMT


False floor??? The container floor is already 25mm hardwood plywood over
steel C channel on about 12" centers. Bolt directly through that floor,
can use big washers or load plates underneath as well.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


I mention a false floor because metalworking machines can be
heavy...very heavy.


If I had a Bridgeport in such container, I would want it securely
attached to the floor when the container was relocated.


Also a false floor allows one to rearrange machinery without
butchering up the main flooring and allows one the ability to run
cables and ducts under it.


TMT


TMT


I have an Index Model 45 its about bridgeport sized maybe a bit bogger
and i DO share your concerns about bolting it


but i will need to both BOLT and level it and right now it has
levelling screws in the base.


but since moving the container is a Secondary concern to making it
into a valid shop for now i'm not THAT worried about how to bolt it to
the floor for another year or so. also if there is to be any settling
i expect it to happen inthe first winter and spring and i will need to
likely re-levle the machine once the ground thaws- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


I understand...I would not be paranoid about it but it is SO MUCH
EASIER to do this type of thing before the shop is FULL of
tools...guess how I know? ;)

Placing a mounting point in the back of the container will allow you
to use a winch to drag new items into the shop also.

TMT

TMT


TMT there are hooks on the floor that are perfect for EXACTLY the
purpose having used them to drag the index mill in i will not be able
to work without some type of firmpoint for material handling

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Default Update on the Containerized shop

On Sep 12, 4:21 pm, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Sep 12, 12:41 pm, "Pete C." wrote:



Brent wrote:


On Sep 11, 11:30 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
Nick Mueller wrote:


Pete C. wrote:


An insulated container that is kept at a controlled interior temperature
will not experience this issue any more than a house maintained at a
controlled interior temperature will.


Sorry, wrong.
You do have a temperature gradient looking at a section through the wall. At
the place where the temperature drops below the dew-point, you'll get
condensation. Preferably, that happens within the insulation-material,
supposing it can retain and transport humidity. If that is not the case you
get condensation. And this will be exactly at the inside of the metal
container. Styrofoam and that stuff glued to the inside of a wall is *the*
*worst* you can do. Except you are out for mushrooms.


Moisture doesn't magically appear to condense, it has to come from
somewhere. Neither the steel container, not extruded polystyrene
insulation are permeable so nothing of significance is going to happen
in the space between them. The interior surface is very unlikely to be
at dew point in a conditioned space so nothing is likely to happen there
either.


The difference to a house is, that the dew-point is *in* the brick-wall (oh,
you know what this is? G) and the brick can transport humidity to the
outside, especially if there is a humidity-stopping layer (or not as good
transporting, or much longer distance) on the inside of the wall. You get a
much better climate and much less humidity this way. No dehumidifier
needed.


Again with the steel container, EPS insulation and FRP paneling you have
a triple layer vapor barrier. Moisture outside stays outside, moisture
inside stays inside (normal vents remove it).


The only
source of moisture in the container will be one human intermittently
working in it, something normal ventilation will readily handle.


Sorry, wrong again. Relative humidity is the point. Warm outside, cool
inside and you ventilate - moisture inside. Just have a look at the water
running out of A/Cs.


Look at moisture running out of an A/C after it has been running in an
enclosed space for a while, and dehumidifying the space. Unless you're
doing something really stupid to allow a lot of moisture into the space,
it will remain dry and the A/C will operate more efficiently since it
won't have the added load of condensing moisture out of the air as well
as cooling the air.


OK so in my situation i could use a little feedback here


there are 4 passive vents in the corners of my container


Same on my non insulated 40' container. It sits through new england
seasons and has yet to have a moisture problem inside.


i know i'l likely need to leave these vents through but they will
allow humidity to enter too


Loose those vents, they won't be adequate for your intended use. Install
"real" venting in the form of RV vents, regular roof vents, or similar.


Because of my Climate i know i will need both Heating and Air
conditioning


Nick's statements about the dewpoint are valid the Container cools
faster than the ambient air once the sun is down so it will draw dew
if it cools past the dewpoint i will need to seal the inside walls
with a vapor barrier that is a given and i will need ot take steps to
de-humidify the shop.


You *do not* need a vapor barrier, it will accomplish absolutely
nothing. A vapor barrier is used in residential frame construction
because the wall materials are all permeable, steel is *not* permeable,
nor is extruded polystyrene insulation, nor FRP paneling.


the AC itself I primarily use to drop the
humidity to make work bearable rather than needing the temperature
itself to dropit seems that using Styrofoam the possibly after the
electric is run to call in a sprayfoam guy to seal behind it.


Run electrical in surface mounted EMT conduit. See the great power
upgrade 2006 on my site:http://wpnet.usforan example.


There is no reason to seal behind the polystyrene insulation that you
glue in place, other than for additional insulation and even that is
marginal. The cavities formed behind the insulation are sealed chambers
assuming you make proper use of the adhesive. None of the materials
involved are moisture permeable and the humidity in that chamber will
always be the same as the day it was sealed.


Should i fork over a little more for an AC to let it automatically run
to prevent condensation?


A separate dehumidifier if you find a need for it after you've completed
the rest and monitored it for a while. The separate dehumidifier will
function when heated in the winter to remove moisture tracked in from
snow on your boots.


Even if i'm not there if it senses that the dewpoint could be exceeded
it will trigger and dehumidify the shop?


Yes, separate dehumidifier. Before spending money on it however, spend
the $30 for a temp / humidity gauge with min/max and see what the spans
really are.


I'm investigating elsewhere too but there are no container conversion
experts local to me.


If i have to do something fancy to prevent condensation so be it, my
tools are worth an ounce of prevention and a few dollars of
dehumidifier runtime


Again, review what I've posted and just monitor to see if you have an
actual issue. Residential wood frames, plywood or OSB sheathing,
fiberglass insulation and drywall are all moisture permeable, steel, EPS
insulation and FRP panels are not.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Try to hang heating, A/C, dehumifier, dust control from the
ceiling....floor space is reserved for the heavy stuff.

TMT


i was looking at infrared radiant heaters that mounted on the ceiling
and radiated down but the place that had them (lee valley tools) is
out of stock in the long temr on them

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Default Update on the Containerized shop

Pete C. wrote:

Again with the steel container, EPS insulation and FRP paneling you have
a triple layer vapor barrier. Moisture outside stays outside, moisture
inside stays inside (normal vents remove it).


You didn't understand what ventilation does, or you suppose that there is no
need for ventilation.


Nick
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http://www.yadro.de


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Default Update on the Containerized shop

In article om,
Brent wrote:

i was looking at infrared radiant heaters that mounted on the ceiling
and radiated down but the place that had them (lee valley tools) is
out of stock in the long temr on them


Ordinary IR bulbs work fine

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/
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Default Update on the Containerized shop

Nick Mueller wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Again with the steel container, EPS insulation and FRP paneling you have
a triple layer vapor barrier. Moisture outside stays outside, moisture
inside stays inside (normal vents remove it).


You didn't understand what ventilation does, or you suppose that there is no
need for ventilation.


No, I understand what ventilation does just fine and I've indicated the
OP should be installing proper vents.

You don't seem to understand the difference between conventional frame
house construction where pretty much all the wall construction materials
are moisture permeable and an additional non permeable vapor barrier
(usually plastic sheeting) is used to prevent interior moisture from
humans, showers, kitchens, etc. from getting passing into the wall
structure and saturating the fiberglass insulation. The permeability of
the materials on the other side of the vapor barrier allows the moisture
level on that side to settle to the average humidity of the exterior
environment.

The steel of the container, extruded polystyrene insulation and EPS wall
paneling are all non permeable - all are vapor barriers. There will be
absolutely no moisture migration through these materials. The humidity
level in the small spaces formed by the corrugated steel side and the
EPS insulation will stay constant since they are sealed cavities
(subject to reasonable care with the adhesive when installing).

During the summer when you have A/C running in the 1,280 cubic foot
shop, the likelihood if the interior humidity level and temperature, and
wall surface temperature being just right for moisture to condense on
the walls is very, very low. The point where the temps might be at dew
point will be somewhere within the non permeable wall structure where it
will have no effect at all due to the inability of moisture to reach
that point since all the wall materials are vapor barriers.

The OP's container a.k.a. steel building lacks most of the moisture
sources found in a residence (no shower or kitchen), lacks the permeable
wall materials found in a residence, and lacks the materials such as
fiberglass insulation that could be damaged by moisture passing through
permeable wall materials. Installing some sort of plastic sheeting vapor
barrier over the steel wall and EPS insulation would be positively
idiotic since it would accomplish nothing putting it over two other
vapor barriers, and under FRP paneling, a third vapor barrier.
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Brent wrote:
I've posted a few questions off and on about things like putting
Machine tools on a wood floor and on insulating a shop. I figured i
would post an interim update on how my shop upgrade is going.

I decided AGAINST erecting a structure and went the shipping container
route instead. I made that realization wen i figured out i would not
likely be staying at this house forever. If 9 of the 10 heaviest
items i own (Excluding my CAR) are already in the shipping container
it will make future moves EXTREMELY easy. So i'm now the Proud owner
of a 20 foot shipping container.


I have a 10 foot container which I have heat-insulated
and held for around 6 years now.. Temperatures from -30C
to +35C with snow at winter.

The most important gotcha is that the FLOOR is a big
heat loss at winter.. I installed styrox plates to
exposed metallic surfaces at the bottom, and prevented
airflow to under the container with wood plates.

I did the heat insulation by welding bolts to the inside
walls and ceiling every 60cm and then bolted wooden 2x2 to
the bolts. Between the 2x2 I put glass-wool.. On top of all
that cheap chipboard plates and painted the walls. I left
a slight opening between the plates and the floor, for air
access. Has worked wonderfully.

I painted the outside with green metal-roof paint
with brush.

Here's some pics from inside the container, mostly showing
the white chipboard walls:
http://www.iki.fi/ktu/sem/sem_general.jpg
http://www.iki.fi/ktu/tem/tem_general.jpg

Kristian Ukkonen.
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"Kristian Ukkonen" wrote in message
...


Brent wrote:
I've posted a few questions off and on about things like putting
Machine tools on a wood floor and on insulating a shop. I figured

i
would post an interim update on how my shop upgrade is going.

I decided AGAINST erecting a structure and went the shipping

container
route instead. I made that realization wen i figured out i would

not
likely be staying at this house forever. If 9 of the 10 heaviest
items i own (Excluding my CAR) are already in the shipping

container
it will make future moves EXTREMELY easy. So i'm now the Proud

owner
of a 20 foot shipping container.


I have a 10 foot container which I have heat-insulated
and held for around 6 years now.. Temperatures from -30C
to +35C with snow at winter.

The most important gotcha is that the FLOOR is a big
heat loss at winter.. I installed styrox plates to
exposed metallic surfaces at the bottom, and prevented
airflow to under the container with wood plates.

I did the heat insulation by welding bolts to the inside
walls and ceiling every 60cm and then bolted wooden 2x2 to
the bolts. Between the 2x2 I put glass-wool.. On top of all
that cheap chipboard plates and painted the walls. I left
a slight opening between the plates and the floor, for air
access. Has worked wonderfully.

I painted the outside with green metal-roof paint
with brush.

Here's some pics from inside the container, mostly showing
the white chipboard walls:
http://www.iki.fi/ktu/sem/sem_general.jpg
http://www.iki.fi/ktu/tem/tem_general.jpg

Kristian Ukkonen.


What are you playing with there Kristian, an electron microscope?

AWEM




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On Sep 11, 11:48 am, Gunner wrote:
On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:09:05 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:



I'll have to investigate that line because so far i was looking at
residential exterior door prices and it hurt to look


Even a regular basic residential steel entry door is like $120 (US) new,
but unfortunately it's wood framed. You want the commercial steel framed
ones so you can just cut a hole and weld it in place in the container.
With the way commercial office space is constantly remodeled and current
recycling efforts, there is a lot of used stuff available.


If there is one local to you..check out the store at Habitat for
Humanity. Some very good deals to be had on recycled
materials/supplies.

Gunner


Gunner thanks for the tip..... Unfortunately the Habitat Re-Store had
nothing but wood doors and the salvage yard i found had only a few
steel doors and they were mainly steel framed GLASS doors. Mind you
they had some interesting unloved tools but thats a project for
another time

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On Sep 13, 2:00 am, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:
On 12 Sep 2007 04:34:43 GMT, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote:

According to Brent :


[ ... ]


I am a big fan of overbuilding and already i'm not looking forward to
the budget preventing me form putting in windows this winter


Might I suggest that each window have an opaque panel which
could be swung in place or inserted to keep people from being able to
see what is in there when things are closed up? No sense in tempting
people -- depending on your neighborhood, of course.


That, or it's simple enough to turn a panel of pre-made wrought iron
fencing into window burglar guards. Saves getting the spacing right.

A quick release for emergency egress isn't that difficult to wangle
up - I'd go for something drop dead simple like a pin through the wall
and a mouse clip release on the inside, hinges on the other end. Or
if you can get some huge Dzus slotted pins...

You put a shroud over the pin releases so a burglar can't break the
glass and reach in to release the grille. When you need out in a
hurry you simply step on a shrouded floor level pedal to pull both
mouse clips out at once, and free the open-window end of the grille.

-- Bruce --


And make sure you can do the release with your eyes shut.

If you ever have to go out that window at night when the house is on
fire, you will understand why.

TMT

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Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Sep 13, 2:00 am, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On 12 Sep 2007 04:34:43 GMT, (DoN. Nichols)
wrote:


According to Brent :


[ ... ]


I am a big fan of overbuilding and already i'm not looking forward to
the budget preventing me form putting in windows this winter


Might I suggest that each window have an opaque panel which
could be swung in place or inserted to keep people from being able to
see what is in there when things are closed up? No sense in tempting
people -- depending on your neighborhood, of course.


That, or it's simple enough to turn a panel of pre-made wrought iron
fencing into window burglar guards. Saves getting the spacing right.

A quick release for emergency egress isn't that difficult to wangle
up - I'd go for something drop dead simple like a pin through the wall
and a mouse clip release on the inside, hinges on the other end. Or
if you can get some huge Dzus slotted pins...

You put a shroud over the pin releases so a burglar can't break the
glass and reach in to release the grille. When you need out in a
hurry you simply step on a shrouded floor level pedal to pull both
mouse clips out at once, and free the open-window end of the grille.

-- Bruce --



And make sure you can do the release with your eyes shut.

If you ever have to go out that window at night when the house is on
fire, you will understand why.

TMT


And one handed.

Something I learned trying to get out of broken helicopters.
It's a lot harder to do anything when you are hurt...

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On Sep 11, 8:59 am, "Pete C." wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:

On Sep 10, 5:11 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
wrote:


On Sep 10, 3:47 pm, Brent wrote:
I've posted a few questions off and on about things like putting
Machine tools on a wood floor and on insulating a shop. I figured i
would post an interim update on how my shop upgrade is going.


I decided AGAINST erecting a structure and went the shipping container
route instead. I made that realization wen i figured out i would not
likely be staying at this house forever. If 9 of the 10 heaviest
items i own (Excluding my CAR) are already in the shipping container
it will make future moves EXTREMELY easy. So i'm now the Proud owner
of a 20 foot shipping container.


Cars fit in them fine too...


I started by getting a bed delivered of "granular A" gravel material,
And i wound up getting about 4 tons too much.


Oops.


I got it and spread it and then tamped it down (14 tons of gravel with
a guy using a shovel took longer than i thought)


Exercise.


i bought a used container that was WAY older than i thought it was
(Close inspection revels it was built in 1971) but has no structural
rust to speak of so i'm essentially happy BUT i need to find out where
i can buy container hardware to redo one of the locking tabs


They last a long time. I'm not sure what vintage my 40' is, but it is in
pretty much mint condition, barely a ding.


The container is delivered and resting on eight pads made up of a pair
of 4 inch solid concrete blocks. For the most part not all are
touching but if there is any settling the open ones will start taking
the load


The four corners is all you need, and all that is normally supported on
these things when fully loaded.


I've ground and primed all the surface rust spots and i'm in the
process of respraying the exterior to white


Nice. Mine came with a fresh coat of industrial gray, my favorite color.


Should i replace the numbers and identifiers? it said NICU 87214 as an
ID and i think that might be significant enough to return to the box
possibly?


Not unless you think they look cool or expect to have it shipped
internationally.


Electrical will hopefully get resolved this week


I'm planning on running 100A of 240V 1Ph to it and i'm tryig to figure
out whether thats best done with four Camlock Connectors or with a pin
in sleeve connector and finding 4 conductor 4 gauge cable


The cam locks and individual conductors (type W?) are generally the way
to go with anything over about 60A as complete cables become a bear to
handle.


Since i'm in canada i know i will need to run Heat and AC to it along
with lights


Yep. Might want to consider LP for heat though, unless your electric
rates are real low.


I figure i need 100A since as a single user the worst sustained use i
can hit is WELDER + Compressor + heat + lights. which t me works out
to in the ballpark of 80A at 240V


Yep, no reason to skimp. Install a nice 20-32 space panel in the
container.


3 phase if and when required will be done via VFD for machine tools
liek the mill and i will install an RPC


Good.


my only OTHER concern was insulation and so far i think my best option
is to frame the inside with 2x2's and insulate with the pink styrofoam
stuff then drywall over that with the best fire resistant drywall i
can afford.


My suggestion would be to skip framing and instead glue thick insulboard
(like 2" EPS) to the inside of the container and then glue FRP panels on
top of that (with the nice trim strips between them. FRPs are commercial
grade, fire resistant, washable (food prep area rated), and quite
durable. They're expensive in 1s and 2s at the big box places, but
ordering enough for a container from a real building supply place should
be a lot better.


I've decided to delay adding windows and a human access door to the
side until next year for budget reasons. It means a little more rework
next year but getting the shop ready to go is more important. than
making it pretty and if i have to live with a closed box with all
electric lighting it wont kill me for the winter


Best route on this is to cut a hole in the side of the container and
weld in a regular commercial door frame (and install the door of
course). Use this normal door for access and leave the end doors locked.
You can probably get such a door used at a salvage place cheap. Don't
skip this as it's a safety issue.


Just figured i'd post on how it was doing and look for some feedback
on the insulation and electrical issue


Pictures, we want lots of pictures


1st on the list- if you go in and close the door (to keep the heat in,
etc.) make sure there's a way to keep someone on the outside from
locking you in.


That and the fact that you can't fully close the doors from the inside
without leaving the lock bars where a slight bump could lock them
without any malicious assistance.


2nd- emergency air vent?


RV type vents will install easily and inexpensively. Can't stack other
containers on top after that, but I don't expect that will be an issue.


Insulation that won't burn, even if exposed, might be worth a little
extra effort.


As noted above


Maybe a small (but you can fit through it) emergency hatch at the rear
is in order.


RV vent / escape hatch again.


Have fun


Pete C.


Three comments....


1) If you use LP/gas for heat be sure to vent...they produce
considerable water vapor that you won't like in the enclosed space
with nice tools.


Absolutely. You'd use one of the Mr. Heater vented garage heaters, or
perhaps an RV heater. Absolutely never use one of the unvented heaters.



2) Do you need a vapor barrier for the insulation? I think you will
have condensation on the inside of the container and you don't want
your insulation to become saturated.


If you're gluing extruded polystyrene foam to the inside of the
container and then FRP panels on top of that with staggered joints, I
think you have all the vapor barrier you'd need.



3) Big agreement about the walkin door....two exits always for fire
safety.


Yes, and if you find a suitable salvage place, used commercial metal
frame doors should be very cheap. Commercial space gets demod and
rebuilt constantly and these days they're pretty good about reclaiming a
lot of the materials.

Pete C.


Well at this point the paint phase is done and construction and
modification begins

i TOTALLY struck out at finding a metal door and frame. the only metal
framed doors i found were GLASS doors liek the entrance to a lawyers
office or boutique.... Not appropriate for my application

Next I'm calling the window and door manufacturers looking for miscuts
or refused orders. If they had to take back a door its of limited
usefulness to them and since i can cut my opening to fit its very
useful to me

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"Brent" wrote in message

i TOTALLY struck out at finding a metal door and frame. the only metal
framed doors i found were GLASS doors liek the entrance to a lawyers
office or boutique.... Not appropriate for my application

Next I'm calling the window and door manufacturers looking for

miscuts
or refused orders. If they had to take back a door its of limited
usefulness to them and since i can cut my opening to fit its very
useful to me


As you can slice holes in containers, can you not also fabricate a
door frame from angle, and a door from channel and sheet?

AWEM




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On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 07:59:39 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Brent quickly quoth:

Well at this point the paint phase is done and construction and
modification begins

i TOTALLY struck out at finding a metal door and frame. the only metal
framed doors i found were GLASS doors liek the entrance to a lawyers
office or boutique.... Not appropriate for my application

Next I'm calling the window and door manufacturers looking for miscuts
or refused orders. If they had to take back a door its of limited
usefulness to them and since i can cut my opening to fit its very
useful to me


How about a rollup metal door? I don't recall seeing what size you
wanted. From $130 + (s/h) on eBay. http://tinyurl.com/2ugfvx
http://www.usdoor.com/door/PDFs/USDo...20Brochure.pdf
I don't know how good the insulation is, foil bubble.
(Janus (another vendor's) models are a whopping R-4!

--

According to our strength of character and our clarity of vision, we will
endure, we will succeed, we will have contributed something to make life
where we were and as we lived it better, brighter, and more beautiful.
-- Frank Lloyd Wright
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On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 20:47:25 -0700, Brent
wrote:

Gunner thanks for the tip..... Unfortunately the Habitat Re-Store had
nothing but wood doors and the salvage yard i found had only a few
steel doors and they were mainly steel framed GLASS doors. Mind you
they had some interesting unloved tools but thats a project for
another time



How does your local municipality regard containers as workshops ?

Containers are prohibited here in a residential area, even if
nicely painted and fitted with a gable roof. A stupid attitude.

I had to remove mine once all my furniture & tools were removed
from it. Council was threatening to fine me for each day after a
removal deadline. It is now at my son's house being loaded with
tools and car parts ready for his move. No problem for him as his
land is zoned semi-rural and developers have made an offer for it.
I was going to remove it anyway as it was in an inconvenient
position in my garden and extremely difficult to rotate 90 degrees to
where I wanted it. Also not suitable for woodworking as it is too
narrow to handle 8 x 4 sheets of ply on the table saw.
My new shed is supposedly being erected tomorrow, 28' x 15' for
metalworking and the old shed, 24' x 13' is woodworking only. First
priority for new shed is shelving, I have 3 pallet racks to assemble
and shelves and boxes to remove from the spare bedroom.
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Brent wrote:

Well at this point the paint phase is done and construction and
modification begins

i TOTALLY struck out at finding a metal door and frame. the only metal
framed doors i found were GLASS doors liek the entrance to a lawyers
office or boutique.... Not appropriate for my application

Next I'm calling the window and door manufacturers looking for miscuts
or refused orders. If they had to take back a door its of limited
usefulness to them and since i can cut my opening to fit its very
useful to me



I have several local places that deal in Mobile home and surplus
construction materials. I bought two new fire rated steel doors a few
years ago for $20 each. They were rejected on the jobsite because of
scratches that were easy to fix h a torch. They had a metal cover tack
welded over the normal edge where the lock set went, to use them as a
set of double doors. It took about five minutes to peel them off. A
little grinding and fresh paint, and they looked brand new. One is in
use on my shop building, and the other will go on the garage.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
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On Sep 19, 1:07 pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
Brent wrote:

Well at this point the paint phase is done and construction and
modification begins


i TOTALLY struck out at finding a metal door and frame. the only metal
framed doors i found were GLASS doors liek the entrance to a lawyers
office or boutique.... Not appropriate for my application


Next I'm calling the window and door manufacturers looking for miscuts
or refused orders. If they had to take back a door its of limited
usefulness to them and since i can cut my opening to fit its very
useful to me


I have several local places that deal in Mobile home and surplus
construction materials. I bought two new fire rated steel doors a few
years ago for $20 each. They were rejected on the jobsite because of
scratches that were easy to fix h a torch. They had a metal cover tack
welded over the normal edge where the lock set went, to use them as a
set of double doors. It took about five minutes to peel them off. A
little grinding and fresh paint, and they looked brand new. One is in
use on my shop building, and the other will go on the garage.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida


Issue resolved I'm getting a reject off a commercial door manufacturer
here

new 20 gauge steel and insulated but rejected from an earlier job

Now for windows

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On Sep 19, 12:44 pm, Alan wrote:
On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 20:47:25 -0700, Brent
wrote:



Gunner thanks for the tip..... Unfortunately the Habitat Re-Store had
nothing but wood doors and the salvage yard i found had only a few
steel doors and they were mainly steel framed GLASS doors. Mind you
they had some interesting unloved tools but thats a project for
another time


How does your local municipality regard containers as workshops ?

Containers are prohibited here in a residential area, even if
nicely painted and fitted with a gable roof. A stupid attitude.

I had to remove mine once all my furniture & tools were removed
from it. Council was threatening to fine me for each day after a
removal deadline. It is now at my son's house being loaded with
tools and car parts ready for his move. No problem for him as his
land is zoned semi-rural and developers have made an offer for it.
I was going to remove it anyway as it was in an inconvenient
position in my garden and extremely difficult to rotate 90 degrees to
where I wanted it. Also not suitable for woodworking as it is too
narrow to handle 8 x 4 sheets of ply on the table saw.
My new shed is supposedly being erected tomorrow, 28' x 15' for
metalworking and the old shed, 24' x 13' is woodworking only. First
priority for new shed is shelving, I have 3 pallet racks to assemble
and shelves and boxes to remove from the spare bedroom.


My container falls through the cracks of zoning ALTHOUGH my city is a
bit of a unique mess that way.

there are 17 different zoning bylaws in force within my overall city
due to a forced amalgamation. Ine one secdton of town (Called Kanata)
they have such crazy and draconinan bylaws that the were controlling
the color you point your house the erection of a clothesline and all
sorts of things like that. Basically the town council was the HOA for
that municipality. If you didnt like it you moved a few miles away
form that small pocket of prudes. (The overwheming majority of the
city were IT type people who wanted a perfect little suburbia) those
who disagreed with that picture lived elsewhere in nearby locations.

Where i am (Goulbourn) was a much more rural area. and the laws and
regulations reflect that. my "town" has just recently been "upgraded"
to be considered a suburb in the last 5 years form being a rural area

But the container is not plumbed into the house and will be on
camlocks to house hydro.

its does not fit their definition of a structure so its not a
structure. =) i beleive that the foundation is where the definition
lies

I then checked the "Property Standards" Bylaws. Property standards =
eyesore in government speak.

The container itself is not prohibited there but there are rules about
appropriate coatings for wood and metal structures. Basically It
arrived Graffitied and rusty and both of those are disallowed (And
have since been rectified)

The container s however more sturdy and better looking than the shed
it replaced and in the exact same spot. Neighbours have been happier
to see the clean white structure than the rotting old shed.

I'm safe to have a container and they are frequently used for on site
tool storage by construction companies (Even in residential areas when
the size of job is appropriate for it) And Containers are rented for
house moves here as well

In theory where my old shed was and where this container is are in
violation of "setback" regulations so if i were to put it on a
foundation and put plumbing in i would need a zoning variance. But 1 I
dont want a zoning variance and 2 i WANT and intend to move this shop.
I will not be staying in the house i live in forever so i want a
mobile workshop and not a Structure. and that it is not built but it
is parked if it comes down to that. I can "park" on the setback

Hope that makes sense

Brent Philion
Ottawa Canada





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On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:17:13 +0100, "Andrew Mawson"
wrote:

"Brent" wrote in message

i TOTALLY struck out at finding a metal door and frame. the only metal
framed doors i found were GLASS doors liek the entrance to a lawyers
office or boutique.... Not appropriate for my application

Next I'm calling the window and door manufacturers looking for

miscuts
or refused orders. If they had to take back a door its of limited
usefulness to them and since i can cut my opening to fit its very
useful to me


As you can slice holes in containers, can you not also fabricate a
door frame from angle, and a door from channel and sheet?


We used th' cut out section for th' *sheet*.

Snarl

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On Sep 19, 11:40 am, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 07:59:39 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Brent quickly quoth:

Well at this point the paint phase is done and construction and
modification begins


i TOTALLY struck out at finding a metal door and frame. the only metal
framed doors i found were GLASS doors liek the entrance to a lawyers
office or boutique.... Not appropriate for my application


Next I'm calling the window and door manufacturers looking for miscuts
or refused orders. If they had to take back a door its of limited
usefulness to them and since i can cut my opening to fit its very
useful to me


How about a rollup metal door? I don't recall seeing what size you
wanted. From $130 + (s/h) on eBay. http://tinyurl.com/2ugfvxhttp://www....20Brochure.pdf
I don't know how good the insulation is, foil bubble.
(Janus (another vendor's) models are a whopping R-4!

--

According to our strength of character and our clarity of vision, we will
endure, we will succeed, we will have contributed something to make life
where we were and as we lived it better, brighter, and more beautiful.
-- Frank Lloyd Wright


the "door" i need is for human access only and should be as insulated
as possible to prevent heat loss through it
if i need something big loaded or unloaded i'll open the barn doors

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Brent wrote:

On Sep 10, 4:38 pm, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:
"Brent" wrote:
I've posted a few questions off and on about things like putting
Machine tools on a wood floor and on insulating a shop. I figured i
would post an interim update on how my shop upgrade is going.


I decided AGAINST erecting a structure and went the shipping container
route instead. I made that realization wen i figured out i would not
likely be staying at this house forever. If 9 of the 10 heaviest
items i own (Excluding my CAR) are already in the shipping container
it will make future moves EXTREMELY easy. So i'm now the Proud owner
of a 20 foot shipping container.


I started by getting a bed delivered of "granular A" gravel material,
And i wound up getting about 4 tons too much.


I got it and spread it and then tamped it down (14 tons of gravel with
a guy using a shovel took longer than i thought)


i bought a used container that was WAY older than i thought it was
(Close inspection revels it was built in 1971) but has no structural
rust to speak of so i'm essentially happy BUT i need to find out where
i can buy container hardware to redo one of the locking tabs


The container is delivered and resting on eight pads made up of a pair
of 4 inch solid concrete blocks. For the most part not all are
touching but if there is any settling the open ones will start taking
the load


I've ground and primed all the surface rust spots and i'm in the
process of respraying the exterior to white


Should i replace the numbers and identifiers? it said NICU 87214 as an
ID and i think that might be significant enough to return to the box
possibly?


Electrical will hopefully get resolved this week


I'm planning on running 100A of 240V 1Ph to it and i'm tryig to figure
out whether thats best done with four Camlock Connectors or with a pin
in sleeve connector and finding 4 conductor 4 gauge cable


Since i'm in canada i know i will need to run Heat and AC to it along
with lights


I figure i need 100A since as a single user the worst sustained use i
can hit is WELDER + Compressor + heat + lights. which t me works out
to in the ballpark of 80A at 240V


3 phase if and when required will be done via VFD for machine tools
liek the mill and i will install an RPC


my only OTHER concern was insulation and so far i think my best option
is to frame the inside with 2x2's and insulate with the pink styrofoam
stuff then drywall over that with the best fire resistant drywall i
can afford.


I've decided to delay adding windows and a human access door to the
side until next year for budget reasons. It means a little more rework
next year but getting the shop ready to go is more important. than
making it pretty and if i have to live with a closed box with all
electric lighting it wont kill me for the winter


Just figured i'd post on how it was doing and look for some feedback
on the insulation and electrical issue


Got any pictures?

Jon


Yes and no, I'm finishing setting up my website rather than cluttering
the dropbox


We're still waiting for pictures / link to your site...
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Default Update on the Containerized shop

On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 11:44:07 -0700, Brent
wrote:



there are 17 different zoning bylaws in force within my overall city
due to a forced amalgamation. Ine one secdton of town (Called Kanata)
they have such crazy and draconinan bylaws that the were controlling
the color you point your house the erection of a clothesline and all
sorts of things like that. Basically the town council was the HOA for
that municipality. If you didnt like it you moved a few miles away
form that small pocket of prudes. (The overwheming majority of the
city were IT type people who wanted a perfect little suburbia) those
who disagreed with that picture lived elsewhere in nearby locations.

Where i am (Goulbourn) was a much more rural area. and the laws and
regulations reflect that. my "town" has just recently been "upgraded"
to be considered a suburb in the last 5 years form being a rural area

But the container is not plumbed into the house and will be on
camlocks to house hydro.

its does not fit their definition of a structure so its not a
structure. =) i beleive that the foundation is where the definition
lies

I then checked the "Property Standards" Bylaws. Property standards =
eyesore in government speak.

The container itself is not prohibited there but there are rules about
appropriate coatings for wood and metal structures. Basically It
arrived Graffitied and rusty and both of those are disallowed (And
have since been rectified)

The container s however more sturdy and better looking than the shed
it replaced and in the exact same spot. Neighbours have been happier
to see the clean white structure than the rotting old shed.

I'm safe to have a container and they are frequently used for on site
tool storage by construction companies (Even in residential areas when
the size of job is appropriate for it) And Containers are rented for
house moves here as well

In theory where my old shed was and where this container is are in
violation of "setback" regulations so if i were to put it on a
foundation and put plumbing in i would need a zoning variance. But 1 I
dont want a zoning variance and 2 i WANT and intend to move this shop.
I will not be staying in the house i live in forever so i want a
mobile workshop and not a Structure. and that it is not built but it
is parked if it comes down to that. I can "park" on the setback

Hope that makes sense

Brent Philion
Ottawa Canada


I visited second son in a townhouse complex in Kanata, Christmas 1993
- Worst damned shack town I was ever in. Cockroaches big enough to
ride.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
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Default Update on the Containerized shop

On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 12:13:23 -0700, Brent
wrote:
On Sep 19, 11:40 am, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 07:59:39 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Brent quickly quoth:


Well at this point the paint phase is done and construction and
modification begins


i TOTALLY struck out at finding a metal door and frame. the only metal
framed doors i found were GLASS doors liek the entrance to a lawyers
office or boutique.... Not appropriate for my application


Next I'm calling the window and door manufacturers looking for miscuts
or refused orders. If they had to take back a door its of limited
usefulness to them and since i can cut my opening to fit its very
useful to me


How about a rollup metal door? I don't recall seeing what size you
wanted. From $130 + (s/h) on eBay.
http://tinyurl.com/2ugfvxhttp://www....20Brochure.pdf
I don't know how good the insulation is, foil bubble.
(Janus (another vendor's) models are a whopping R-4!

--

According to our strength of character and our clarity of vision, we will
endure, we will succeed, we will have contributed something to make life
where we were and as we lived it better, brighter, and more beautiful.
-- Frank Lloyd Wright


the "door" i need is for human access only and should be as insulated
as possible to prevent heat loss through it
if i need something big loaded or unloaded i'll open the barn doors


You could consider the "barn doors" on the container as the
emergency exit IF you rig up an inside release of some sort. You
would have to remove the vertical dog shafts and install a
conventional lever-set door latch & deadbolt set on the right door.
Leave the dogs on the left door & padlock them, they are much more
effective than simple cane bolts.

If you want to spend a bit or scrounge a bit, you could even put a
set of commercial exit door Push To Open "crash bar" latches on both
ends. Highly recommended if you will be using flammable solvents
inside, and shaving another precious second or two off your exit speed
sounds like a really good idea...

Store the dog bars - if you ever want to move the container any
distance they will need to be reinstalled and operative, otherwise you
can rack (twist) the whole container by uneven weight distribution
between the four corners during loading or unloading operations.

-- Bruce --

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