Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Tig welder extension cord

Ned Simmons writes:

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:34:16 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:

Ned Simmons writes:


Seems like a perfectly good analogy to me. The cord is sized
considering the nature of the load, not the capacity of the circuit
that's feeding it. The welder in question draws about 30A @ 30% duty
cycle.


You're assuming the conditions of setting the duty cycle of the welder
also apply to the duty cycle of the cord. I don't see *any* reason to
believe that's going to be the case. When I see a duty cycle rating
for an extension cord, I'll believe that it applies to it. In the
mean time, I'll use a cord rated for the peak load that it will be
called on to handle.


See the NEC article on welders. It recognizes the intermittent nature
of welding and allows conductors with an ampacity lower than the
breaker on a welder circuit.


You're right (and I'm surprised) -- the supply to a welder can be
lower than called for by the peak current draw by roughly the square
root of the duty cycle. Given that the duty cycle is defined over a
ten minute period, this means you can run double the rated current
through a cord for roughly two minutes! Yikes...

Though that's also assuming the welder doesn't have a specified I1eff
rating -- if it does, that trumps the calculation.

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Default Tig welder extension cord

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 04:54:26 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:28:21 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
clare at snyder.on.ca quickly quoth:

My little "MIG" welder runs on a 15 amp circuit on 110 volts. On a 50
foot 16 guage cord at full output the voltage drops to about 96 volts.
That reduces the maximum current of an already borderline welder
significantly.(14% voltage drop roughly 28% power drop?????)


Time to bite the bullet and go buy a 12/3 contractor's extension cord.
They're about $60 here in the States. Dunno 'bout Canuckistan.

================================================= ==========
Save the Endangered Bouillons from being cubed!
================================================= ==========

I've already got a couple of them. I don't use the light cords anymore
for anything with a full load draw of over about 7 amps

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On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:12:03 -0400, Ned Simmons
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:28:21 -0400, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:00:07 -0400, Ned Simmons


However, when running a welder on an extention cord, you want a cord
capable of handling AT LEAST 120% of the expected load to reduce
voltage drop.

Unlike induction motors, most welders are tolerant of low input
voltage. The 185T will operate on 208V circuits, so if it's being
supplied by a typical 240V feed there'd have to be an awfully big drop
to bother it.



My little "MIG" welder runs on a 15 amp circuit on 110 volts. On a 50
foot 16 guage cord at full output the voltage drops to about 96 volts.
That reduces the maximum current of an already borderline welder
significantly.(14% voltage drop roughly 28% power drop?????)


In this case, a 20 foot, 12 ga extension with a 38A load @ 240V
results in a 2.5% drop, or 234V at the welder. Also note that the 185T
is an inverter welder - it acts like a switching regulator and draws
more current as the supply voltage drops, so I doubt you'd notice any
difference at the output.

I get about 30A running thru a 50ft, 16 ga extension for a 14V drop.
Are you sure the whole loss is in the cord?

Did you factor in both the power and the neutral? 100 feet of
conductor in total.

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On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 01:27:33 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:21:46 -0500, zxcvbob
wrote:

(there
was an experiment that went terribly wrong during the 1970's with using
AL wiring for 15 and 20A circuits.)

Bob



Indeed. They are still finding them when the house burns to the
ground.


Gunner

The EARLY aluminum wire was awfull. The later stuff is OK with the
proper switches and receptacles, which did NOT exist when aluminum
wiring was common. I don't like the stuff, but my home was wired with
it and I'm NOT rewiring it. I am, however, replacing all devices with
co/alr devices.

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On Tue, 4 Sep 2007 22:47:45 -0700, "42etus"
wrote:



And where do you have 20 amp breaker protection on domestic
circuits????? In North America?????

It has been commonplace, though not required, to wire outlets in homes on 20
amp circuits for years now, at least in the U.S.


I'm talking Canada, where copper AWG14 and 15 amps is still the
"standard".

Virtually all domestic branch circuits are 15 amp fused(or breaker
protected) 14 AWG copper or 12 awg Aluminum cable.

Wrong! Typically residential wiring uses 12 AWG wire on 20 amp circuits for
wall outlets.
Aluminum wire is NOT allowed in residential wiring except as service
entrance conductors and hasn't been for years.

Virtually all computer power cords are 18AWG fine stranded copper, as
are MOST lamp cords and many light duty extention cords.

That is the point I was trying to make.

Virtually all domestic 110 volt receptacles are 15 amp and it is
AGAINST CODE to install 20 amp receptacles on a 14 guage 15 amp
circuit.

Yes, but FWIW it is NOT against the NEC to install 15 amp receptacles on 20
amp branch circuits.


I believe it still is in Canada.
Our rules tend to be a bit more "conservative" than in the USA.
The OCCAISIONAL dedicated circuit for things like room air
conditioners are wired with 12awg and protected to 20 amp - using 20
amp receptacles and the odd "T" type power plugs

That would be a very small A/C unit indeed since the NEC requires that an
appliance on a dedicated circuit draw no more than 75 % of the circuit's
rating, or in the case of a 20 amp circuit, 15 amps. An appliance that draws
15 amps is not likely to have a NEMA 5-20P (odd T type) plug.
42

Lots of window air conditioners up here, 10,000 BTU? are rated at
something like 13 or 14 amps, and have standard 15 amp plugs - which
fit just fine in a 20 amp plug. Many people have 20 amp circuits
installed to run these to avoid the voltage drop associated with
lighter wiring, and to handle the startup surge more effectively.

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On Tue, 4 Sep 2007 22:59:02 -0700, "42etus"
wrote:

Now I see from your header that you're in Canada. I don't know a thing about
the Canadian codes, my experience has all been in the USA.
All my comments were intended to remain south of the 48th parallel.grin
42


And I'm considerably south of that, too. 43° 27', North

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 4 Sep 2007 20:03:48 -0700, "42etus"
wrote:

I think you guys missed my point. The OP seemed to be concerned that he
was
going to have a cord rated at 25 amps protected by a 50 amp breaker. What
I
meant to point out is that it is very common and allowed by the NEC to
have
cords supplying appliances that are rated less than the breaker supplying
the circuit. Most household appliances, toasters, lamps, radios, computers
etc all have power supply cords that are not rated for the 20 amps that
wall
outlets are capable of supplying. Can you imagine your electric razor
having
a 12/3 SJO cord just because your outlet in the bathroom was on a circuit
protected by a 20 amp breaker? That would make shaving each morning a real
PITA.
42

And where do you have 20 amp breaker protection on domestic
circuits????? In North America?????
Virtually all domestic branch circuits are 15 amp fused(or breaker
protected) 14 AWG copper or 12 awg Aluminum cable.
Virtually all computer power cords are 18AWG fine stranded copper, as
are MOST lamp cords and many light duty extention cords.
Virtually all domestic 110 volt receptacles are 15 amp and it is
AGAINST CODE to install 20 amp receptacles on a 14 guage 15 amp
circuit.
The OCCAISIONAL dedicated circuit for things like room air
conditioners are wired with 12awg and protected to 20 amp - using 20
amp receptacles and the odd "T" type power plugs - |
u




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On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 09:22:24 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:

clare, at, snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Tue, 4 Sep 2007 20:03:48 -0700, "42etus"
wrote:

I think you guys missed my point. The OP seemed to be concerned that he was
going to have a cord rated at 25 amps protected by a 50 amp breaker. What I
meant to point out is that it is very common and allowed by the NEC to have
cords supplying appliances that are rated less than the breaker supplying
the circuit. Most household appliances, toasters, lamps, radios, computers
etc all have power supply cords that are not rated for the 20 amps that wall
outlets are capable of supplying. Can you imagine your electric razor having
a 12/3 SJO cord just because your outlet in the bathroom was on a circuit
protected by a 20 amp breaker? That would make shaving each morning a real
PITA.
42

And where do you have 20 amp breaker protection on domestic
circuits????? In North America?????
Virtually all domestic branch circuits are 15 amp fused(or breaker
protected) 14 AWG copper or 12 awg Aluminum cable.
Virtually all computer power cords are 18AWG fine stranded copper, as
are MOST lamp cords and many light duty extention cords.
Virtually all domestic 110 volt receptacles are 15 amp and it is
AGAINST CODE to install 20 amp receptacles on a 14 guage 15 amp
circuit.
The OCCAISIONAL dedicated circuit for things like room air
conditioners are wired with 12awg and protected to 20 amp - using 20
amp receptacles and the odd "T" type power plugs - |
u

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Every single "domestic" circuit in my house is 20A. There is no 14ga
wire anywhere in the house. It was even this way when I bought the
house, before I replaced the main panel.

Pete C.



The USA and Canada are different then, in more ways than I was aware.

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On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:14:27 -0500, zxcvbob
wrote:



I'm not really up on Canadian electric codes, but they are different
than in the USA:

Canada only recently changed to allow 20A receptacles that will accept a
15A plug. Previously, 15A circuits could only have 15A receptacles
(just like USA) and 20A circuits could only have 20A-only receptacles
(I'm not sure those even exist in the USA)

Also they wire their kitchen countertop outlets different -- IIRC they
use 15A duplex receptacles and split them, using an "edison circuit"
(each pair of outlets has 240V available between them) That would come
in really handy if you wanted to replace one with a 240V receptacle for
one of those 3000W British electric kettles that will boil a quart of
water in 10 seconds ;-)

Bob


Yes, splits are MANDATORY in Canadian kitchens, and I believe our code
requires more outlets in a room than the US does as well. Likely
allows fewer outlets per branch circuit too. I believe we also allow
fewer wires in a box of a given size. I know a LOT of devices that are
"legal" in the USA do not get approval here.

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On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 22:01:51 -0400, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:12:03 -0400, Ned Simmons
wrote:



I get about 30A running thru a 50ft, 16 ga extension for a 14V drop.
Are you sure the whole loss is in the cord?


Did you factor in both the power and the neutral? 100 feet of
conductor in total.


Yup. This calculator says 33A to get a 14V drop...
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

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On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 22:07:13 -0400, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 01:27:33 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:21:46 -0500, zxcvbob wrote:


(there was an experiment that went terribly wrong during the
1970's with using AL wiring for 15 and 20A circuits.)


Indeed. They are still finding them when the house burns to the
ground.


The EARLY aluminum wire was awful. The later stuff is OK with the
proper switches and receptacles, which did NOT exist when aluminum
wiring was common. I don't like the stuff, but my home was wired with
it and I'm NOT rewiring it. I am, however, replacing all devices with
co/alr devices.


Even CO/ALR devices are not immune to trouble. I'd still MUCH
prefer it if the folks plagued with AL wiring would rip it all out and
start over. But for some strange reason people don't want to spend
all that money on a job they can't see any benefits from - at least
not until after the fire. Go figure...

The only safe way to handle it is to have all the device locations
(receptacles switches and lights) pigtailed to copper wires for the
device connections with compression splices - Amphenol makes the
special splices, the powered crimpers to apply them, and the
heat-shrink insulation sleeves on top. You have to take a factory
course and be certified by AMP to buy the supplies and to do the work.

For minor moves and changes where you don't want to pay the crimping
guys, the wiring has to be pigtailed out with special purple NoAlOx
compound filled wirenuts with extra strong springs - Ideal makes them.

-- Bruce --



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On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:37:26 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 22:07:13 -0400, clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:
On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 01:27:33 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 23:21:46 -0500, zxcvbob wrote:


(there was an experiment that went terribly wrong during the
1970's with using AL wiring for 15 and 20A circuits.)

Indeed. They are still finding them when the house burns to the
ground.


The EARLY aluminum wire was awful. The later stuff is OK with the
proper switches and receptacles, which did NOT exist when aluminum
wiring was common. I don't like the stuff, but my home was wired with
it and I'm NOT rewiring it. I am, however, replacing all devices with
co/alr devices.


Even CO/ALR devices are not immune to trouble. I'd still MUCH
prefer it if the folks plagued with AL wiring would rip it all out and
start over. But for some strange reason people don't want to spend
all that money on a job they can't see any benefits from - at least
not until after the fire. Go figure...

The only safe way to handle it is to have all the device locations
(receptacles switches and lights) pigtailed to copper wires for the
device connections with compression splices - Amphenol makes the
special splices, the powered crimpers to apply them, and the
heat-shrink insulation sleeves on top. You have to take a factory
course and be certified by AMP to buy the supplies and to do the work.



And they are no safer than a properly installed co/alr.
My dad was an electrician through the aluminum years here in ontario.

For minor moves and changes where you don't want to pay the crimping
guys, the wiring has to be pigtailed out with special purple NoAlOx
compound filled wirenuts with extra strong springs - Ideal makes them.

-- Bruce --



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