I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt
won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills
so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel
is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and
which acid would work for this application ?
Ken Cutt

On Aug 30, 7:18 pm, scutt wrote:
I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt
won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills
so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel
is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and
which acid would work for this application ?
Ken Cutt

Bee's wax will make a decent resist. Paint it on or dip the blade into
it while it is fluid, them scratch the design into the wax. I don't
remember which acid I used so many years ago, but it may have been
nitric

In article ,
scutt wrote:

I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt
won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills
so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel
is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and
which acid would work for this application ?

Resist: Bees wax or the tarry stuff used to paint cut surfaces where
tree limbs once attached.

Etchant: Ferric Chloride

These things are sold at electronic supply houses for making printed
circuit boards.

In the 1970s in Baltimore I used the wax plus ferric chloride approach
to etch a friend's name into his knives - he worked as a cook, and
wanted his knives to stay his.

A year later, he was going to work on his motorcycle and was stopped by
a traffic cop, who found the knife roll and charged him with carrying a
deadly weapon.

The Judge took one look at this 10" chef's knife with BARTLETT etched
into the blade with 1" high letters, said that this was clearly a
tradesman's tool, and dismissed the case.

Joe Gwinn

Gerry wrote:
On Aug 30, 7:18 pm, scutt wrote:
I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt
won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills
so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel
is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and
which acid would work for this application ?
Ken Cutt

Bee's wax will make a decent resist. Paint it on or dip the blade into
it while it is fluid, them scratch the design into the wax. I don't
remember which acid I used so many years ago, but it may have been
nitric

Then Bee's wax it is . Thanks I will pick some up tomorrow .
Ken Cutt

Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
scutt wrote:

I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt
won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills
so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel
is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and
which acid would work for this application ?

Resist: Bees wax or the tarry stuff used to paint cut surfaces where
tree limbs once attached.

Etchant: Ferric Chloride

These things are sold at electronic supply houses for making printed
circuit boards.

In the 1970s in Baltimore I used the wax plus ferric chloride approach
to etch a friend's name into his knives - he worked as a cook, and
wanted his knives to stay his.

A year later, he was going to work on his motorcycle and was stopped by
a traffic cop, who found the knife roll and charged him with carrying a
deadly weapon.

The Judge took one look at this 10" chef's knife with BARTLETT etched
into the blade with 1" high letters, said that this was clearly a
tradesman's tool, and dismissed the case.

Joe Gwinn

Thanks . I don't know of any electronic supply places any where near me
but I will start checking tomorrow . Would there be much difference
between this and hydrochloric acid ?
Ken Cutt

Radio Shack


On Aug 30, 8:35 pm, scutt wrote:
Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
scutt wrote:

I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt
won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills
so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel
is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and
which acid would work for this application ?

Resist: Bees wax or the tarry stuff used to paint cut surfaces where
tree limbs once attached.

Etchant: Ferric Chloride

These things are sold at electronic supply houses for making printed
circuit boards.

In the 1970s in Baltimore I used the wax plus ferric chloride approach
to etch a friend's name into his knives - he worked as a cook, and
wanted his knives to stay his.

A year later, he was going to work on his motorcycle and was stopped by
a traffic cop, who found the knife roll and charged him with carrying a
deadly weapon.

The Judge took one look at this 10" chef's knife with BARTLETT etched
into the blade with 1" high letters, said that this was clearly a
tradesman's tool, and dismissed the case.

Joe Gwinn

Thanks . I don't know of any electronic supply places any where near me
but I will start checking tomorrow . Would there be much difference
between this and hydrochloric acid ?
Ken Cutt- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In article ,
scutt wrote:

Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
scutt wrote:

I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt
won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills
so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel
is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and
which acid would work for this application ?

Resist: Bees wax or the tarry stuff used to paint cut surfaces where
tree limbs once attached.

Etchant: Ferric Chloride

These things are sold at electronic supply houses for making printed
circuit boards.

In the 1970s in Baltimore I used the wax plus ferric chloride approach
to etch a friend's name into his knives - he worked as a cook, and
wanted his knives to stay his.

A year later, he was going to work on his motorcycle and was stopped by
a traffic cop, who found the knife roll and charged him with carrying a
deadly weapon.

The Judge took one look at this 10" chef's knife with BARTLETT etched
into the blade with 1" high letters, said that this was clearly a
tradesman's tool, and dismissed the case.

Joe Gwinn

Thanks . I don't know of any electronic supply places any where near me
but I will start checking tomorrow.

One can get such chemicals by mail order, from Allied or Newark.

Local stores are unlikely, unless you live in a major urban area.

Ask local electronics nuts where the stores are.


Would there be much difference
between this and hydrochloric acid ?

Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to control
and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel.

Joe Gwinn

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,

Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to control
and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel.

Joe Gwinn

How does it bite, compared to nitric? Does it undercut? Do you have to etch
in multiple bites?

--
Ed Huntress

Joseph Gwinn fired this volley in
:

Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to
control and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for
steel.

Y'know, I've used ferric chloride to etch zinc, aluminum, and copper.
But I never thought to use it on any iron-based alloy.

I'm a bit confused about this. Is the ferric chloride actually etching
the iron, or just leaching other metals out of the alloy?

The reason I ask is, ferric chloride is chlorine and iron in its most
stable dimer state of Fe2Cl6. It can dissociate/reassociate
bidirectionally in aqueous solution to/from FeCl3, which is also stable.

So... my read is that it cannot actually etch iron. It can "stain" or
"reveal" features in iron by leaching out other metals, thus leaving a
distinct marking on the metal -- but not actually removing any
significant mass of the "etched" area.

When I think "etched", I think of fairly deep removal of the surface
metal -- i.e. "dissolved". My best bet is that your friend's blades felt
essentially the same across the "etched" areas as in all other areas of
the blade.

Yes? No?

LLoyd

"scutt" wrote in message
...
I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt
won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills so
the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel is an
old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and which acid
would work for this application ?
Ken Cutt

Ken - maybe search this group or google for electrical or electrolytic
etching. I have not done it at home but recall reading about it (probably
here!) - if I recall correctly you can use an auto battery charger and the
etchant was quite a bit safer than ferric chloride or acid.

I used a system years ago for marking tools & prototypes that used some sort
of waxed paper which was marked in a typewriter (remember those?). A mesh or
something was used to clamp the paper to the workpiece. The paper was
flooded with electrolyte and the mesh & workpiece hooked up to a power
supply.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley
in . 3.70:

So... my read is that it cannot actually etch iron. It can "stain" or
"reveal" features in iron by leaching out other metals, thus leaving a
distinct marking on the metal -- but not actually removing any
significant mass of the "etched" area.


Hmmmm.... maybe I "oops'd" a little. Running the redox again, FeCl3
could dissolve some iron to yeild FeCl2, but it would be darned slow...
maybe hours in the solution, unless heated nearly to boiling, and with
lotsa agitation.

Was this the case? (I try to learn somethin' new ever day. Usually it's
the "wrong" stuff that ends up surprising me.)


LLoyd

scutt wrote:
I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt
won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills
so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel
is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and
which acid would work for this application ?
Ken Cutt


Good for you to help your nephew.

Get him the book "Step-by-Step Knifemaking: You Can Do It!" by David
Boye. It was published in 1977, and is still available in paperback at
Amazon.com (http://tinyurl.com/32sdbl) for $14.93.

He dedicates an entire chapter to etching, with plentiful drawings to
explain the process. I don't know how good these are in the the
paperback version, I have the hard cover.

As a resist he uses a mixture of equal parts by weight of beeswax and
asphaltum. He explains how to mix them properly, and how to apply to
resist properly to the blades to be etched.

For acid he uses Aqua Regia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqua_regia).
This is an acid mixture that I as a goldsmith am very familiar with,
since it is the only acid that will dissolve gold.

I want to strongly caution you, that using Aqua Regia (as well as any
other acid used to etch steel) is risky and possibly very dangerous if
not used carefully and properly. Mixing acids is extremely dangerous if
not done properly. Especially when mixing with water to dilute the acid.

Do not let an 11 year old do this without supervision. I am not
suggesting that you would, just want to make sure.

--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

On Aug 31, 6:56 am, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley
8.3.70:

Running the redox again, FeCl3
could dissolve some iron to yeild FeCl2, but it would be darned slow...

Yep. I've etched stainless with FeCl3, it took half an hour to go 5
mils.
Turned a sheet of shim stock into custom-size washers that way.

Marking, though, doesn't need much penetration. I've also
(accidentally)
got a little oxalic acid (used for bleaching wood) on a stainless
knife,
and it left quite a mark, frosting the surface (which started
polished).

Which is best, I wonder: polish the blade, then etch to make a frosty
mark, or etch, blue the blade, and polish to make a contrasty mark?

wrote:
Radio Shack

No more Radio Shacks here , now the Source . I will check them out . Thanks
Ken Cutt

Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
scutt wrote:

Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
scutt wrote:

I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt
won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills
so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel
is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and
which acid would work for this application ?
Resist: Bees wax or the tarry stuff used to paint cut surfaces where
tree limbs once attached.

Etchant: Ferric Chloride

These things are sold at electronic supply houses for making printed
circuit boards.

In the 1970s in Baltimore I used the wax plus ferric chloride approach
to etch a friend's name into his knives - he worked as a cook, and
wanted his knives to stay his.

A year later, he was going to work on his motorcycle and was stopped by
a traffic cop, who found the knife roll and charged him with carrying a
deadly weapon.

The Judge took one look at this 10" chef's knife with BARTLETT etched
into the blade with 1" high letters, said that this was clearly a
tradesman's tool, and dismissed the case.

Joe Gwinn
Thanks . I don't know of any electronic supply places any where near me
but I will start checking tomorrow.

One can get such chemicals by mail order, from Allied or Newark.

Local stores are unlikely, unless you live in a major urban area.

Ask local electronics nuts where the stores are.


Would there be much difference
between this and hydrochloric acid ?

Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to control
and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel.

Joe Gwinn
My nephew does not live near me and is here as a holiday until school
starts . The etched design was an after thought or I could have done my
homework ahead of time . So for this project it is going to have to be
the stuff I can get my hands on the fastest . Thanks
Ken Cutt

Robbo wrote:
"scutt" wrote in message
...
I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt
won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills so
the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel is an
old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and which acid
would work for this application ?
Ken Cutt

Ken - maybe search this group or google for electrical or electrolytic
etching. I have not done it at home but recall reading about it (probably
here!) - if I recall correctly you can use an auto battery charger and the
etchant was quite a bit safer than ferric chloride or acid.

I used a system years ago for marking tools & prototypes that used some sort
of waxed paper which was marked in a typewriter (remember those?). A mesh or
something was used to clamp the paper to the workpiece. The paper was
flooded with electrolyte and the mesh & workpiece hooked up to a power
supply.


I like the idea of using paper to hold the acid in contact . Thanks
Ken Cutt

Abrasha wrote:
scutt wrote:
I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First
attempt won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing
new skills so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife
. The steel is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a
resist and which acid would work for this application ?
Ken Cutt


Good for you to help your nephew.

Get him the book "Step-by-Step Knifemaking: You Can Do It!" by David
Boye. It was published in 1977, and is still available in paperback at
Amazon.com (http://tinyurl.com/32sdbl) for $14.93.

He dedicates an entire chapter to etching, with plentiful drawings to
explain the process. I don't know how good these are in the the
paperback version, I have the hard cover.

As a resist he uses a mixture of equal parts by weight of beeswax and
asphaltum. He explains how to mix them properly, and how to apply to
resist properly to the blades to be etched.

For acid he uses Aqua Regia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqua_regia).
This is an acid mixture that I as a goldsmith am very familiar with,
since it is the only acid that will dissolve gold.

I want to strongly caution you, that using Aqua Regia (as well as any
other acid used to etch steel) is risky and possibly very dangerous if
not used carefully and properly. Mixing acids is extremely dangerous if
not done properly. Especially when mixing with water to dilute the acid.

Do not let an 11 year old do this without supervision. I am not
suggesting that you would, just want to make sure.


Hi Abrasha good to see your name attached to a post here again , seems
like its been a while . At 11 he is still young enough to not mind a
high level of supervision . No doubt that will change as he gets older .
Being as his first attempt turned out so well the level of expectation
is very high for the second attempt . So it is pushing me into new
learning experiences , always good . I picked up the bees wax today and
hopefully some acid tomorrow , should have the blank ready to etch by
Sunday . Thanks
Ken Cutt

In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,

Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to control
and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel.

Joe Gwinn

How does it bite, compared to nitric? Does it undercut? Do you have to etch
in multiple bites?

I've never used Nitric Acid for etching, so I cannot offer a comparison.

I've etched carbon steel (1095) and high-carbon stainless steel (like
440C) with wax resist and a cotton swab soaked with concentrated ferric
chloride solution at room temperature, sweeping over the area to be
etched manually. I don't recall how deep it went, but it was not
superficial. I recall it taking ten or twenty minutes total, but I was
talking as I did it, so I wasn't keeping score.

Joe Gwinn

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,

Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to control
and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel.

Joe Gwinn

How does it bite, compared to nitric? Does it undercut? Do you have to
etch
in multiple bites?

I've never used Nitric Acid for etching, so I cannot offer a comparison.

I've etched carbon steel (1095) and high-carbon stainless steel (like
440C) with wax resist and a cotton swab soaked with concentrated ferric
chloride solution at room temperature, sweeping over the area to be
etched manually. I don't recall how deep it went, but it was not
superficial. I recall it taking ten or twenty minutes total, but I was
talking as I did it, so I wasn't keeping score.

Joe Gwinn

Thanks. If anyone has compared it with nitric acid, I'd really like to know.

--
Ed Huntress

On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 13:45:15 -0000, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

,;Joseph Gwinn fired this volley in
:
,;
,; Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to
,; control and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for
,; steel.
,;
,;Y'know, I've used ferric chloride to etch zinc, aluminum, and copper.
,;But I never thought to use it on any iron-based alloy.
,;
,;I'm a bit confused about this. Is the ferric chloride actually etching
,;the iron, or just leaching other metals out of the alloy?
,;
,;The reason I ask is, ferric chloride is chlorine and iron in its most
,;stable dimer state of Fe2Cl6. It can dissociate/reassociate
,;bidirectionally in aqueous solution to/from FeCl3, which is also stable.

Ferric chloride is not chlorine and iron.

Ferric chloride can be reduced to divalent iron chloride.

Ferric chloride is not stable in the presence of a strong enough
reducing agent. Iron metal is a strong enough reducing agent so the
reaction takes place and the iron dissolves.

The net reaction is 2Fe+3 + Fe(metal) --- 2Fe+2 (the chloride does
not change valence)
,;
,;So... my read is that it cannot actually etch iron. It can "stain" or
,;"reveal" features in iron by leaching out other metals, thus leaving a
,;distinct marking on the metal -- but not actually removing any
,;significant mass of the "etched" area.

Your read is incorrect.

Ferric chloride can indeed dissolve metallic iron. The amount dissolve
depends on the quantity of trivalent iron available.

,;
,;When I think "etched", I think of fairly deep removal of the surface
,;metal -- i.e. "dissolved". My best bet is that your friend's blades felt
,;essentially the same across the "etched" areas as in all other areas of
,;the blade.


,;
,;Yes? No?
,;
,;LLoyd
,;

BA - lots of various companies doing trade in electronic parts and projects.
BA is East Coast.

Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Life; NRA LOH & Endowment Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


scutt wrote:
wrote:
Radio Shack

No more Radio Shacks here , now the Source . I will check them out .
Thanks
Ken Cutt

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Hum - there is a certain amount of free HCL in Ferric chloride.
That might be the active agent - making more Ferric Chloride and hydrogen.

Likewise HCL would do the same. Using HCL for taking scale and rust off
it tends to turn metal a gray.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Life; NRA LOH & Endowment Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Joseph Gwinn fired this volley in
:

Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to
control and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for
steel.

Y'know, I've used ferric chloride to etch zinc, aluminum, and copper.
But I never thought to use it on any iron-based alloy.

I'm a bit confused about this. Is the ferric chloride actually etching
the iron, or just leaching other metals out of the alloy?

The reason I ask is, ferric chloride is chlorine and iron in its most
stable dimer state of Fe2Cl6. It can dissociate/reassociate
bidirectionally in aqueous solution to/from FeCl3, which is also stable.

So... my read is that it cannot actually etch iron. It can "stain" or
"reveal" features in iron by leaching out other metals, thus leaving a
distinct marking on the metal -- but not actually removing any
significant mass of the "etched" area.

When I think "etched", I think of fairly deep removal of the surface
metal -- i.e. "dissolved". My best bet is that your friend's blades felt
essentially the same across the "etched" areas as in all other areas of
the blade.

Yes? No?

LLoyd


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

According to scutt :
Joseph Gwinn wrote:

[ ... ]

Resist: Bees wax or the tarry stuff used to paint cut surfaces where
tree limbs once attached.

Etchant: Ferric Chloride

[ ... ]

Thanks . I don't know of any electronic supply places any where near me
but I will start checking tomorrow . Would there be much difference
between this and hydrochloric acid ?

Well ... the FeCL (Ferric Chloride) is less hazardous, but it is
a nasty yellow stain on anything that it gets on.

Don't use *either* inside your shop. Both produce vapors which
will rust things like mad (which is what you are doing through the
beeswax resist anyway. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to Ed Huntress :

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

[ ... ]

How does it bite, compared to nitric? Does it undercut? Do you have to
etch
in multiple bites?

I've never used Nitric Acid for etching, so I cannot offer a comparison.

[ ... ]

Thanks. If anyone has compared it with nitric acid, I'd really like to know.

Well ... I've used both Nitric and FeCl for etching copper
printed circuit boards, and the nitric was far more vigorous -- easy to
overdo the task.

No Idea how either work on ferrous metals, however.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Aug 30, 8:18 pm, scutt wrote:
I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt
won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills
so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel
is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and
which acid would work for this application ?
Ken Cutt

Wax, beeswax would make a good resist.
Since he's only 11, I'd suggest HCl, (muriatic acid).
It will work, (a bit slower), and is a bit safer than sulfuric or
nitric acids.

In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,

Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to control
and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel.

Joe Gwinn

How does it bite, compared to nitric? Does it undercut? Do you have to
etch
in multiple bites?

I've never used Nitric Acid for etching, so I cannot offer a comparison.

I've etched carbon steel (1095) and high-carbon stainless steel (like
440C) with wax resist and a cotton swab soaked with concentrated ferric
chloride solution at room temperature, sweeping over the area to be
etched manually. I don't recall how deep it went, but it was not
superficial. I recall it taking ten or twenty minutes total, but I was
talking as I did it, so I wasn't keeping score.

Joe Gwinn

Thanks. If anyone has compared it with nitric acid, I'd really like to know.

I've used nitric and ferric chloride for etching copper printmaking
plates. The main difference is that the nitric dissolves the metal and
it's mostly gone, while the ferric leaves residue in the bite. For that
reason, it's helpful to etch upside down in ferric so the residue falls
away. (Prop up non-etching areas of the plate on some small plastic
blocks; you might also want to rinse your plate and brush off residue
from time to time.)

For copper, the best etchant is dutch mordant (hydrochloric acid +
potassium chlorate). Unfortunately, it's both difficult to obtain and
rather dangerous. The ferric is the least dangerous of the three. The
ferric also has a rougher bite than the nitric. The results can also
vary quite a bit depending on the acid strength, both the original
dilution amount, and the amount of etching time you've used it for.

Also, regarding the resist, check out some printmaking suppliers. The
"hard ground" they sell is a brush-on resist that's thin and easy to
draw on, it's also easy to remove with solvent. Try Graphic Chemical and
Ink in Chicago. The hard ground will be easier to use than beeswax,
particularly if your design has any fine detail.

--
Jedd Haas - Artist - New Orleans, LA
http://www.gallerytungsten.com
http://www.epsno.com

"Jedd Haas" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,

Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to
control
and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel.

Joe Gwinn

How does it bite, compared to nitric? Does it undercut? Do you have to
etch
in multiple bites?

I've never used Nitric Acid for etching, so I cannot offer a
comparison.

I've etched carbon steel (1095) and high-carbon stainless steel (like
440C) with wax resist and a cotton swab soaked with concentrated ferric
chloride solution at room temperature, sweeping over the area to be
etched manually. I don't recall how deep it went, but it was not
superficial. I recall it taking ten or twenty minutes total, but I was
talking as I did it, so I wasn't keeping score.

Joe Gwinn

Thanks. If anyone has compared it with nitric acid, I'd really like to
know.

I've used nitric and ferric chloride for etching copper printmaking
plates. The main difference is that the nitric dissolves the metal and
it's mostly gone, while the ferric leaves residue in the bite. For that
reason, it's helpful to etch upside down in ferric so the residue falls
away. (Prop up non-etching areas of the plate on some small plastic
blocks; you might also want to rinse your plate and brush off residue
from time to time.)

For copper, the best etchant is dutch mordant (hydrochloric acid +
potassium chlorate). Unfortunately, it's both difficult to obtain and
rather dangerous. The ferric is the least dangerous of the three. The
ferric also has a rougher bite than the nitric. The results can also
vary quite a bit depending on the acid strength, both the original
dilution amount, and the amount of etching time you've used it for.

Also, regarding the resist, check out some printmaking suppliers. The
"hard ground" they sell is a brush-on resist that's thin and easy to
draw on, it's also easy to remove with solvent. Try Graphic Chemical and
Ink in Chicago. The hard ground will be easier to use than beeswax,
particularly if your design has any fine detail.

--
Jedd Haas - Artist - New Orleans, LA
http://www.gallerytungsten.com
http://www.epsno.com

Thanks, Jedd (and Don). Have either of you ever tried it on steel?

I've used it on copper circuit boards but this is the only place I've heard
of it being used for steel. I've done some etching in steel with nitric
acid, a couple of decades ago, and I learned that you have to use several
bites to prevent severe undercutting.

I'm curious both about the speed of ferric chloride in steel, and the way it
cuts -- undercutting or not.

--
Ed Huntress

In the 70's I knew a PCB etching house owner. New a better one later in life...
This guy was on top of production - did great stuff and was being pushed for
more and faster. He converted his automatic spray machine to something like
hydrogen cyanide or the like. He found out one day he had a leak. It misted
him as he walked by and had to have his sinuses rebuilt from other parts on
his body. He looked like a mess for some time due to the operations.

It worked very well and for a while they just built a plexi shield all around
it. Collins Radio was a big contract and IIRC, an audit by them (visit)
identified their issue - to much demanding when speed wasn't needed.
They paid to get the cyanide system out of there and back to a normal spray.
With that, he upgraded to another line and just ran two.

Martin
Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Life; NRA LOH & Endowment Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Jedd Haas wrote:
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,

Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to control
and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel.

Joe Gwinn
How does it bite, compared to nitric? Does it undercut? Do you have to
etch
in multiple bites?
I've never used Nitric Acid for etching, so I cannot offer a comparison.

I've etched carbon steel (1095) and high-carbon stainless steel (like
440C) with wax resist and a cotton swab soaked with concentrated ferric
chloride solution at room temperature, sweeping over the area to be
etched manually. I don't recall how deep it went, but it was not
superficial. I recall it taking ten or twenty minutes total, but I was
talking as I did it, so I wasn't keeping score.

Joe Gwinn
Thanks. If anyone has compared it with nitric acid, I'd really like to know.

I've used nitric and ferric chloride for etching copper printmaking
plates. The main difference is that the nitric dissolves the metal and
it's mostly gone, while the ferric leaves residue in the bite. For that
reason, it's helpful to etch upside down in ferric so the residue falls
away. (Prop up non-etching areas of the plate on some small plastic
blocks; you might also want to rinse your plate and brush off residue
from time to time.)

For copper, the best etchant is dutch mordant (hydrochloric acid +
potassium chlorate). Unfortunately, it's both difficult to obtain and
rather dangerous. The ferric is the least dangerous of the three. The
ferric also has a rougher bite than the nitric. The results can also
vary quite a bit depending on the acid strength, both the original
dilution amount, and the amount of etching time you've used it for.

Also, regarding the resist, check out some printmaking suppliers. The
"hard ground" they sell is a brush-on resist that's thin and easy to
draw on, it's also easy to remove with solvent. Try Graphic Chemical and
Ink in Chicago. The hard ground will be easier to use than beeswax,
particularly if your design has any fine detail.


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Join this forum, it's free. Sorry I didn't think to mention it sooner.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/index.php
Karl

On Aug 30, 2:18 pm, scutt wrote:
I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt
won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills
so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel
is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and
which acid would work for this application ?
Ken Cutt

Jedd Haas wrote:
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article ,

Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to control
and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel.

Joe Gwinn
How does it bite, compared to nitric? Does it undercut? Do you have to
etch
in multiple bites?
I've never used Nitric Acid for etching, so I cannot offer a comparison.

I've etched carbon steel (1095) and high-carbon stainless steel (like
440C) with wax resist and a cotton swab soaked with concentrated ferric
chloride solution at room temperature, sweeping over the area to be
etched manually. I don't recall how deep it went, but it was not
superficial. I recall it taking ten or twenty minutes total, but I was
talking as I did it, so I wasn't keeping score.

Joe Gwinn
Thanks. If anyone has compared it with nitric acid, I'd really like to know.

I've used nitric and ferric chloride for etching copper printmaking
plates. The main difference is that the nitric dissolves the metal and
it's mostly gone, while the ferric leaves residue in the bite. For that
reason, it's helpful to etch upside down in ferric so the residue falls
away. (Prop up non-etching areas of the plate on some small plastic
blocks; you might also want to rinse your plate and brush off residue
from time to time.)

For copper, the best etchant is dutch mordant (hydrochloric acid +
potassium chlorate). Unfortunately, it's both difficult to obtain and
rather dangerous. The ferric is the least dangerous of the three. The
ferric also has a rougher bite than the nitric. The results can also
vary quite a bit depending on the acid strength, both the original
dilution amount, and the amount of etching time you've used it for.

Also, regarding the resist, check out some printmaking suppliers. The
"hard ground" they sell is a brush-on resist that's thin and easy to
draw on, it's also easy to remove with solvent. Try Graphic Chemical and
Ink in Chicago. The hard ground will be easier to use than beeswax,
particularly if your design has any fine detail.

I think shipping any chemical across a border , post 9-11 would be a
nightmare . Now Sunday , holiday weekend and no acid . Nor a line on
where to get any . Sadly .
Ken Cutt

DoN. Nichols wrote:
According to scutt :
Joseph Gwinn wrote:

[ ... ]

Resist: Bees wax or the tarry stuff used to paint cut surfaces where
tree limbs once attached.

Etchant: Ferric Chloride

[ ... ]

Thanks . I don't know of any electronic supply places any where near me
but I will start checking tomorrow . Would there be much difference
between this and hydrochloric acid ?

Well ... the FeCL (Ferric Chloride) is less hazardous, but it is
a nasty yellow stain on anything that it gets on.

Don't use *either* inside your shop. Both produce vapors which
will rust things like mad (which is what you are doing through the
beeswax resist anyway. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

I had always intended on this being an outside operation .
Ken Cutt

wrote:
On Aug 30, 8:18 pm, scutt wrote:
I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt
won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills
so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel
is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and
which acid would work for this application ?
Ken Cutt

Wax, beeswax would make a good resist.
Since he's only 11, I'd suggest HCl, (muriatic acid).
It will work, (a bit slower), and is a bit safer than sulfuric or
nitric acids.

The big plus is I can get my hands on muriatic any day of the week . Thanks
Ken Cutt

wrote:
Join this forum, it's free. Sorry I didn't think to mention it sooner.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/index.php
Karl

On Aug 30, 2:18 pm, scutt wrote:
I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt
won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills
so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel
is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and
which acid would work for this application ?
Ken Cutt


I will check it out . Also give my nephew a gentle shove in that
direction . Not a knife maker myself , just like most of the posters
here I work with metal so anything metal relatives need my phone rings .
I will admit that I am enjoying this project as it has made me learn new
skills . Always a big plus in my book .
Ken Cutt

Unknown fired this volley in
:


Ferric chloride is not chlorine and iron.

Ahh... I suppose it's actually tin and fluorine...

Ferric chloride can be reduced to divalent iron chloride.

You post too slowly. I already corrected myself.

LLoyd

On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 11:05:08 -0000, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

,;Unknown fired this volley in
:
,;
,;
,; Ferric chloride is not chlorine and iron.
,;
,;Ahh... I suppose it's actually tin and fluorine...

For your information it is more correctly referred to as iron(III)
chloride which consists of trivalent iron ions and chloride ions not
iron and chlorine.

Perhaps I was too subtle for someone pontificating on a subject which
they knew very little and what they thought they knew was incorrect.
,;
,; Ferric chloride can be reduced to divalent iron chloride.
,;
,;You post too slowly. I already corrected myself.
,;
,;LLoyd