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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Etching
I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt
won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and which acid would work for this application ? Ken Cutt |
#2
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Etching
On Aug 30, 7:18 pm, scutt wrote:
I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and which acid would work for this application ? Ken Cutt Bee's wax will make a decent resist. Paint it on or dip the blade into it while it is fluid, them scratch the design into the wax. I don't remember which acid I used so many years ago, but it may have been nitric |
#3
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Etching
In article ,
scutt wrote: I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and which acid would work for this application ? Resist: Bees wax or the tarry stuff used to paint cut surfaces where tree limbs once attached. Etchant: Ferric Chloride These things are sold at electronic supply houses for making printed circuit boards. In the 1970s in Baltimore I used the wax plus ferric chloride approach to etch a friend's name into his knives - he worked as a cook, and wanted his knives to stay his. A year later, he was going to work on his motorcycle and was stopped by a traffic cop, who found the knife roll and charged him with carrying a deadly weapon. The Judge took one look at this 10" chef's knife with BARTLETT etched into the blade with 1" high letters, said that this was clearly a tradesman's tool, and dismissed the case. Joe Gwinn |
#4
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Etching
Gerry wrote:
On Aug 30, 7:18 pm, scutt wrote: I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and which acid would work for this application ? Ken Cutt Bee's wax will make a decent resist. Paint it on or dip the blade into it while it is fluid, them scratch the design into the wax. I don't remember which acid I used so many years ago, but it may have been nitric Then Bee's wax it is . Thanks I will pick some up tomorrow . Ken Cutt |
#5
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Etching
Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article , scutt wrote: I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and which acid would work for this application ? Resist: Bees wax or the tarry stuff used to paint cut surfaces where tree limbs once attached. Etchant: Ferric Chloride These things are sold at electronic supply houses for making printed circuit boards. In the 1970s in Baltimore I used the wax plus ferric chloride approach to etch a friend's name into his knives - he worked as a cook, and wanted his knives to stay his. A year later, he was going to work on his motorcycle and was stopped by a traffic cop, who found the knife roll and charged him with carrying a deadly weapon. The Judge took one look at this 10" chef's knife with BARTLETT etched into the blade with 1" high letters, said that this was clearly a tradesman's tool, and dismissed the case. Joe Gwinn Thanks . I don't know of any electronic supply places any where near me but I will start checking tomorrow . Would there be much difference between this and hydrochloric acid ? Ken Cutt |
#6
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Etching
Radio Shack
On Aug 30, 8:35 pm, scutt wrote: Joseph Gwinn wrote: In article , scutt wrote: I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and which acid would work for this application ? Resist: Bees wax or the tarry stuff used to paint cut surfaces where tree limbs once attached. Etchant: Ferric Chloride These things are sold at electronic supply houses for making printed circuit boards. In the 1970s in Baltimore I used the wax plus ferric chloride approach to etch a friend's name into his knives - he worked as a cook, and wanted his knives to stay his. A year later, he was going to work on his motorcycle and was stopped by a traffic cop, who found the knife roll and charged him with carrying a deadly weapon. The Judge took one look at this 10" chef's knife with BARTLETT etched into the blade with 1" high letters, said that this was clearly a tradesman's tool, and dismissed the case. Joe Gwinn Thanks . I don't know of any electronic supply places any where near me but I will start checking tomorrow . Would there be much difference between this and hydrochloric acid ? Ken Cutt- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
#7
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Etching
In article ,
scutt wrote: Joseph Gwinn wrote: In article , scutt wrote: I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and which acid would work for this application ? Resist: Bees wax or the tarry stuff used to paint cut surfaces where tree limbs once attached. Etchant: Ferric Chloride These things are sold at electronic supply houses for making printed circuit boards. In the 1970s in Baltimore I used the wax plus ferric chloride approach to etch a friend's name into his knives - he worked as a cook, and wanted his knives to stay his. A year later, he was going to work on his motorcycle and was stopped by a traffic cop, who found the knife roll and charged him with carrying a deadly weapon. The Judge took one look at this 10" chef's knife with BARTLETT etched into the blade with 1" high letters, said that this was clearly a tradesman's tool, and dismissed the case. Joe Gwinn Thanks . I don't know of any electronic supply places any where near me but I will start checking tomorrow. One can get such chemicals by mail order, from Allied or Newark. Local stores are unlikely, unless you live in a major urban area. Ask local electronics nuts where the stores are. Would there be much difference between this and hydrochloric acid ? Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to control and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel. Joe Gwinn |
#8
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Etching
"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message ... In article , Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to control and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel. Joe Gwinn How does it bite, compared to nitric? Does it undercut? Do you have to etch in multiple bites? -- Ed Huntress |
#9
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Etching
Joseph Gwinn fired this volley in
: Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to control and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel. Y'know, I've used ferric chloride to etch zinc, aluminum, and copper. But I never thought to use it on any iron-based alloy. I'm a bit confused about this. Is the ferric chloride actually etching the iron, or just leaching other metals out of the alloy? The reason I ask is, ferric chloride is chlorine and iron in its most stable dimer state of Fe2Cl6. It can dissociate/reassociate bidirectionally in aqueous solution to/from FeCl3, which is also stable. So... my read is that it cannot actually etch iron. It can "stain" or "reveal" features in iron by leaching out other metals, thus leaving a distinct marking on the metal -- but not actually removing any significant mass of the "etched" area. When I think "etched", I think of fairly deep removal of the surface metal -- i.e. "dissolved". My best bet is that your friend's blades felt essentially the same across the "etched" areas as in all other areas of the blade. Yes? No? LLoyd |
#10
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Etching
"scutt" wrote in message ... I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and which acid would work for this application ? Ken Cutt Ken - maybe search this group or google for electrical or electrolytic etching. I have not done it at home but recall reading about it (probably here!) - if I recall correctly you can use an auto battery charger and the etchant was quite a bit safer than ferric chloride or acid. I used a system years ago for marking tools & prototypes that used some sort of waxed paper which was marked in a typewriter (remember those?). A mesh or something was used to clamp the paper to the workpiece. The paper was flooded with electrolyte and the mesh & workpiece hooked up to a power supply. |
#11
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Etching
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley
in . 3.70: So... my read is that it cannot actually etch iron. It can "stain" or "reveal" features in iron by leaching out other metals, thus leaving a distinct marking on the metal -- but not actually removing any significant mass of the "etched" area. Hmmmm.... maybe I "oops'd" a little. Running the redox again, FeCl3 could dissolve some iron to yeild FeCl2, but it would be darned slow... maybe hours in the solution, unless heated nearly to boiling, and with lotsa agitation. Was this the case? (I try to learn somethin' new ever day. Usually it's the "wrong" stuff that ends up surprising me.) LLoyd |
#12
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Etching
scutt wrote:
I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and which acid would work for this application ? Ken Cutt Good for you to help your nephew. Get him the book "Step-by-Step Knifemaking: You Can Do It!" by David Boye. It was published in 1977, and is still available in paperback at Amazon.com (http://tinyurl.com/32sdbl) for $14.93. He dedicates an entire chapter to etching, with plentiful drawings to explain the process. I don't know how good these are in the the paperback version, I have the hard cover. As a resist he uses a mixture of equal parts by weight of beeswax and asphaltum. He explains how to mix them properly, and how to apply to resist properly to the blades to be etched. For acid he uses Aqua Regia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqua_regia). This is an acid mixture that I as a goldsmith am very familiar with, since it is the only acid that will dissolve gold. I want to strongly caution you, that using Aqua Regia (as well as any other acid used to etch steel) is risky and possibly very dangerous if not used carefully and properly. Mixing acids is extremely dangerous if not done properly. Especially when mixing with water to dilute the acid. Do not let an 11 year old do this without supervision. I am not suggesting that you would, just want to make sure. -- Abrasha http://www.abrasha.com |
#13
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Etching
On Aug 31, 6:56 am, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com fired this volley 8.3.70: Running the redox again, FeCl3 could dissolve some iron to yeild FeCl2, but it would be darned slow... Yep. I've etched stainless with FeCl3, it took half an hour to go 5 mils. Turned a sheet of shim stock into custom-size washers that way. Marking, though, doesn't need much penetration. I've also (accidentally) got a little oxalic acid (used for bleaching wood) on a stainless knife, and it left quite a mark, frosting the surface (which started polished). Which is best, I wonder: polish the blade, then etch to make a frosty mark, or etch, blue the blade, and polish to make a contrasty mark? |
#14
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Etching
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#15
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Etching
Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article , scutt wrote: Joseph Gwinn wrote: In article , scutt wrote: I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and which acid would work for this application ? Resist: Bees wax or the tarry stuff used to paint cut surfaces where tree limbs once attached. Etchant: Ferric Chloride These things are sold at electronic supply houses for making printed circuit boards. In the 1970s in Baltimore I used the wax plus ferric chloride approach to etch a friend's name into his knives - he worked as a cook, and wanted his knives to stay his. A year later, he was going to work on his motorcycle and was stopped by a traffic cop, who found the knife roll and charged him with carrying a deadly weapon. The Judge took one look at this 10" chef's knife with BARTLETT etched into the blade with 1" high letters, said that this was clearly a tradesman's tool, and dismissed the case. Joe Gwinn Thanks . I don't know of any electronic supply places any where near me but I will start checking tomorrow. One can get such chemicals by mail order, from Allied or Newark. Local stores are unlikely, unless you live in a major urban area. Ask local electronics nuts where the stores are. Would there be much difference between this and hydrochloric acid ? Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to control and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel. Joe Gwinn My nephew does not live near me and is here as a holiday until school starts . The etched design was an after thought or I could have done my homework ahead of time . So for this project it is going to have to be the stuff I can get my hands on the fastest . Thanks Ken Cutt |
#16
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Etching
Robbo wrote:
"scutt" wrote in message ... I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and which acid would work for this application ? Ken Cutt Ken - maybe search this group or google for electrical or electrolytic etching. I have not done it at home but recall reading about it (probably here!) - if I recall correctly you can use an auto battery charger and the etchant was quite a bit safer than ferric chloride or acid. I used a system years ago for marking tools & prototypes that used some sort of waxed paper which was marked in a typewriter (remember those?). A mesh or something was used to clamp the paper to the workpiece. The paper was flooded with electrolyte and the mesh & workpiece hooked up to a power supply. I like the idea of using paper to hold the acid in contact . Thanks Ken Cutt |
#17
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Etching
Abrasha wrote:
scutt wrote: I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and which acid would work for this application ? Ken Cutt Good for you to help your nephew. Get him the book "Step-by-Step Knifemaking: You Can Do It!" by David Boye. It was published in 1977, and is still available in paperback at Amazon.com (http://tinyurl.com/32sdbl) for $14.93. He dedicates an entire chapter to etching, with plentiful drawings to explain the process. I don't know how good these are in the the paperback version, I have the hard cover. As a resist he uses a mixture of equal parts by weight of beeswax and asphaltum. He explains how to mix them properly, and how to apply to resist properly to the blades to be etched. For acid he uses Aqua Regia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqua_regia). This is an acid mixture that I as a goldsmith am very familiar with, since it is the only acid that will dissolve gold. I want to strongly caution you, that using Aqua Regia (as well as any other acid used to etch steel) is risky and possibly very dangerous if not used carefully and properly. Mixing acids is extremely dangerous if not done properly. Especially when mixing with water to dilute the acid. Do not let an 11 year old do this without supervision. I am not suggesting that you would, just want to make sure. Hi Abrasha good to see your name attached to a post here again , seems like its been a while . At 11 he is still young enough to not mind a high level of supervision . No doubt that will change as he gets older . Being as his first attempt turned out so well the level of expectation is very high for the second attempt . So it is pushing me into new learning experiences , always good . I picked up the bees wax today and hopefully some acid tomorrow , should have the blank ready to etch by Sunday . Thanks Ken Cutt |
#18
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Etching
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote: "Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message ... In article , Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to control and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel. Joe Gwinn How does it bite, compared to nitric? Does it undercut? Do you have to etch in multiple bites? I've never used Nitric Acid for etching, so I cannot offer a comparison. I've etched carbon steel (1095) and high-carbon stainless steel (like 440C) with wax resist and a cotton swab soaked with concentrated ferric chloride solution at room temperature, sweeping over the area to be etched manually. I don't recall how deep it went, but it was not superficial. I recall it taking ten or twenty minutes total, but I was talking as I did it, so I wasn't keeping score. Joe Gwinn |
#19
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Etching
"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message ... In article , "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message ... In article , Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to control and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel. Joe Gwinn How does it bite, compared to nitric? Does it undercut? Do you have to etch in multiple bites? I've never used Nitric Acid for etching, so I cannot offer a comparison. I've etched carbon steel (1095) and high-carbon stainless steel (like 440C) with wax resist and a cotton swab soaked with concentrated ferric chloride solution at room temperature, sweeping over the area to be etched manually. I don't recall how deep it went, but it was not superficial. I recall it taking ten or twenty minutes total, but I was talking as I did it, so I wasn't keeping score. Joe Gwinn Thanks. If anyone has compared it with nitric acid, I'd really like to know. -- Ed Huntress |
#20
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Etching
On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 13:45:15 -0000, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: ,;Joseph Gwinn fired this volley in : ,; ,; Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to ,; control and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for ,; steel. ,; ,;Y'know, I've used ferric chloride to etch zinc, aluminum, and copper. ,;But I never thought to use it on any iron-based alloy. ,; ,;I'm a bit confused about this. Is the ferric chloride actually etching ,;the iron, or just leaching other metals out of the alloy? ,; ,;The reason I ask is, ferric chloride is chlorine and iron in its most ,;stable dimer state of Fe2Cl6. It can dissociate/reassociate ,;bidirectionally in aqueous solution to/from FeCl3, which is also stable. Ferric chloride is not chlorine and iron. Ferric chloride can be reduced to divalent iron chloride. Ferric chloride is not stable in the presence of a strong enough reducing agent. Iron metal is a strong enough reducing agent so the reaction takes place and the iron dissolves. The net reaction is 2Fe+3 + Fe(metal) --- 2Fe+2 (the chloride does not change valence) ,; ,;So... my read is that it cannot actually etch iron. It can "stain" or ,;"reveal" features in iron by leaching out other metals, thus leaving a ,;distinct marking on the metal -- but not actually removing any ,;significant mass of the "etched" area. Your read is incorrect. Ferric chloride can indeed dissolve metallic iron. The amount dissolve depends on the quantity of trivalent iron available. ,; ,;When I think "etched", I think of fairly deep removal of the surface ,;metal -- i.e. "dissolved". My best bet is that your friend's blades felt ,;essentially the same across the "etched" areas as in all other areas of ,;the blade. ,; ,;Yes? No? ,; ,;LLoyd ,; |
#21
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Etching
BA - lots of various companies doing trade in electronic parts and projects.
BA is East Coast. Martin Martin H. Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net TSRA, Life; NRA LOH & Endowment Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal. NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/ scutt wrote: wrote: Radio Shack No more Radio Shacks here , now the Source . I will check them out . Thanks Ken Cutt ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#22
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Etching
Hum - there is a certain amount of free HCL in Ferric chloride.
That might be the active agent - making more Ferric Chloride and hydrogen. Likewise HCL would do the same. Using HCL for taking scale and rust off it tends to turn metal a gray. Martin Martin H. Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net TSRA, Life; NRA LOH & Endowment Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal. NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/ Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote: Joseph Gwinn fired this volley in : Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to control and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel. Y'know, I've used ferric chloride to etch zinc, aluminum, and copper. But I never thought to use it on any iron-based alloy. I'm a bit confused about this. Is the ferric chloride actually etching the iron, or just leaching other metals out of the alloy? The reason I ask is, ferric chloride is chlorine and iron in its most stable dimer state of Fe2Cl6. It can dissociate/reassociate bidirectionally in aqueous solution to/from FeCl3, which is also stable. So... my read is that it cannot actually etch iron. It can "stain" or "reveal" features in iron by leaching out other metals, thus leaving a distinct marking on the metal -- but not actually removing any significant mass of the "etched" area. When I think "etched", I think of fairly deep removal of the surface metal -- i.e. "dissolved". My best bet is that your friend's blades felt essentially the same across the "etched" areas as in all other areas of the blade. Yes? No? LLoyd ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#23
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Etching
According to scutt :
Joseph Gwinn wrote: [ ... ] Resist: Bees wax or the tarry stuff used to paint cut surfaces where tree limbs once attached. Etchant: Ferric Chloride [ ... ] Thanks . I don't know of any electronic supply places any where near me but I will start checking tomorrow . Would there be much difference between this and hydrochloric acid ? Well ... the FeCL (Ferric Chloride) is less hazardous, but it is a nasty yellow stain on anything that it gets on. Don't use *either* inside your shop. Both produce vapors which will rust things like mad (which is what you are doing through the beeswax resist anyway. :-) Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#24
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Etching
According to Ed Huntress :
"Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message ... In article , "Ed Huntress" wrote: [ ... ] How does it bite, compared to nitric? Does it undercut? Do you have to etch in multiple bites? I've never used Nitric Acid for etching, so I cannot offer a comparison. [ ... ] Thanks. If anyone has compared it with nitric acid, I'd really like to know. Well ... I've used both Nitric and FeCl for etching copper printed circuit boards, and the nitric was far more vigorous -- easy to overdo the task. No Idea how either work on ferrous metals, however. Enjoy, DoN. -- Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#25
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Etching
On Aug 30, 8:18 pm, scutt wrote:
I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and which acid would work for this application ? Ken Cutt Wax, beeswax would make a good resist. Since he's only 11, I'd suggest HCl, (muriatic acid). It will work, (a bit slower), and is a bit safer than sulfuric or nitric acids. |
#26
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Etching
In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote: "Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message ... In article , "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message ... In article , Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to control and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel. Joe Gwinn How does it bite, compared to nitric? Does it undercut? Do you have to etch in multiple bites? I've never used Nitric Acid for etching, so I cannot offer a comparison. I've etched carbon steel (1095) and high-carbon stainless steel (like 440C) with wax resist and a cotton swab soaked with concentrated ferric chloride solution at room temperature, sweeping over the area to be etched manually. I don't recall how deep it went, but it was not superficial. I recall it taking ten or twenty minutes total, but I was talking as I did it, so I wasn't keeping score. Joe Gwinn Thanks. If anyone has compared it with nitric acid, I'd really like to know. I've used nitric and ferric chloride for etching copper printmaking plates. The main difference is that the nitric dissolves the metal and it's mostly gone, while the ferric leaves residue in the bite. For that reason, it's helpful to etch upside down in ferric so the residue falls away. (Prop up non-etching areas of the plate on some small plastic blocks; you might also want to rinse your plate and brush off residue from time to time.) For copper, the best etchant is dutch mordant (hydrochloric acid + potassium chlorate). Unfortunately, it's both difficult to obtain and rather dangerous. The ferric is the least dangerous of the three. The ferric also has a rougher bite than the nitric. The results can also vary quite a bit depending on the acid strength, both the original dilution amount, and the amount of etching time you've used it for. Also, regarding the resist, check out some printmaking suppliers. The "hard ground" they sell is a brush-on resist that's thin and easy to draw on, it's also easy to remove with solvent. Try Graphic Chemical and Ink in Chicago. The hard ground will be easier to use than beeswax, particularly if your design has any fine detail. -- Jedd Haas - Artist - New Orleans, LA http://www.gallerytungsten.com http://www.epsno.com |
#27
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Etching
"Jedd Haas" wrote in message ... In article , "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message ... In article , "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message ... In article , Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to control and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel. Joe Gwinn How does it bite, compared to nitric? Does it undercut? Do you have to etch in multiple bites? I've never used Nitric Acid for etching, so I cannot offer a comparison. I've etched carbon steel (1095) and high-carbon stainless steel (like 440C) with wax resist and a cotton swab soaked with concentrated ferric chloride solution at room temperature, sweeping over the area to be etched manually. I don't recall how deep it went, but it was not superficial. I recall it taking ten or twenty minutes total, but I was talking as I did it, so I wasn't keeping score. Joe Gwinn Thanks. If anyone has compared it with nitric acid, I'd really like to know. I've used nitric and ferric chloride for etching copper printmaking plates. The main difference is that the nitric dissolves the metal and it's mostly gone, while the ferric leaves residue in the bite. For that reason, it's helpful to etch upside down in ferric so the residue falls away. (Prop up non-etching areas of the plate on some small plastic blocks; you might also want to rinse your plate and brush off residue from time to time.) For copper, the best etchant is dutch mordant (hydrochloric acid + potassium chlorate). Unfortunately, it's both difficult to obtain and rather dangerous. The ferric is the least dangerous of the three. The ferric also has a rougher bite than the nitric. The results can also vary quite a bit depending on the acid strength, both the original dilution amount, and the amount of etching time you've used it for. Also, regarding the resist, check out some printmaking suppliers. The "hard ground" they sell is a brush-on resist that's thin and easy to draw on, it's also easy to remove with solvent. Try Graphic Chemical and Ink in Chicago. The hard ground will be easier to use than beeswax, particularly if your design has any fine detail. -- Jedd Haas - Artist - New Orleans, LA http://www.gallerytungsten.com http://www.epsno.com Thanks, Jedd (and Don). Have either of you ever tried it on steel? I've used it on copper circuit boards but this is the only place I've heard of it being used for steel. I've done some etching in steel with nitric acid, a couple of decades ago, and I learned that you have to use several bites to prevent severe undercutting. I'm curious both about the speed of ferric chloride in steel, and the way it cuts -- undercutting or not. -- Ed Huntress |
#28
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Etching
In the 70's I knew a PCB etching house owner. New a better one later in life...
This guy was on top of production - did great stuff and was being pushed for more and faster. He converted his automatic spray machine to something like hydrogen cyanide or the like. He found out one day he had a leak. It misted him as he walked by and had to have his sinuses rebuilt from other parts on his body. He looked like a mess for some time due to the operations. It worked very well and for a while they just built a plexi shield all around it. Collins Radio was a big contract and IIRC, an audit by them (visit) identified their issue - to much demanding when speed wasn't needed. They paid to get the cyanide system out of there and back to a normal spray. With that, he upgraded to another line and just ran two. Martin Martin H. Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net TSRA, Life; NRA LOH & Endowment Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal. NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member. http://lufkinced.com/ Jedd Haas wrote: In article , "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message ... In article , "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message ... In article , Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to control and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel. Joe Gwinn How does it bite, compared to nitric? Does it undercut? Do you have to etch in multiple bites? I've never used Nitric Acid for etching, so I cannot offer a comparison. I've etched carbon steel (1095) and high-carbon stainless steel (like 440C) with wax resist and a cotton swab soaked with concentrated ferric chloride solution at room temperature, sweeping over the area to be etched manually. I don't recall how deep it went, but it was not superficial. I recall it taking ten or twenty minutes total, but I was talking as I did it, so I wasn't keeping score. Joe Gwinn Thanks. If anyone has compared it with nitric acid, I'd really like to know. I've used nitric and ferric chloride for etching copper printmaking plates. The main difference is that the nitric dissolves the metal and it's mostly gone, while the ferric leaves residue in the bite. For that reason, it's helpful to etch upside down in ferric so the residue falls away. (Prop up non-etching areas of the plate on some small plastic blocks; you might also want to rinse your plate and brush off residue from time to time.) For copper, the best etchant is dutch mordant (hydrochloric acid + potassium chlorate). Unfortunately, it's both difficult to obtain and rather dangerous. The ferric is the least dangerous of the three. The ferric also has a rougher bite than the nitric. The results can also vary quite a bit depending on the acid strength, both the original dilution amount, and the amount of etching time you've used it for. Also, regarding the resist, check out some printmaking suppliers. The "hard ground" they sell is a brush-on resist that's thin and easy to draw on, it's also easy to remove with solvent. Try Graphic Chemical and Ink in Chicago. The hard ground will be easier to use than beeswax, particularly if your design has any fine detail. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#29
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Etching
Join this forum, it's free. Sorry I didn't think to mention it sooner.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/index.php Karl On Aug 30, 2:18 pm, scutt wrote: I am helping my 11 year old nephew make his second knife ( First attempt won him 1st place at the Fair :-). I want to keep introducing new skills so the plan is to try etch in a simple design on this knife . The steel is an old leaf spring . Does anyone know what to use as a resist and which acid would work for this application ? Ken Cutt |
#30
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Etching
Jedd Haas wrote:
In article , "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message ... In article , "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Joseph Gwinn" wrote in message ... In article , Ferric chloride is not volatile (won't evaporate), is easier to control and is safer, and for those reasons is a standard etchant for steel. Joe Gwinn How does it bite, compared to nitric? Does it undercut? Do you have to etch in multiple bites? I've never used Nitric Acid for etching, so I cannot offer a comparison. I've etched carbon steel (1095) and high-carbon stainless steel (like 440C) with wax resist and a cotton swab soaked with concentrated ferric chloride solution at room temperature, sweeping over the area to be etched manually. I don't recall how deep it went, but it was not superficial. I recall it taking ten or twenty minutes total, but I was talking as I did it, so I wasn't keeping score. Joe Gwinn Thanks. If anyone has compared it with nitric acid, I'd really like to know. I've used nitric and ferric chloride for etching copper printmaking plates. The main difference is that the nitric dissolves the metal and it's mostly gone, while the ferric leaves residue in the bite. For that reason, it's helpful to etch upside down in ferric so the residue falls away. (Prop up non-etching areas of the plate on some small plastic blocks; you might also want to rinse your plate and brush off residue from time to time.) For copper, the best etchant is dutch mordant (hydrochloric acid + potassium chlorate). Unfortunately, it's both difficult to obtain and rather dangerous. The ferric is the least dangerous of the three. The ferric also has a rougher bite than the nitric. The results can also vary quite a bit depending on the acid strength, both the original dilution amount, and the amount of etching time you've used it for. Also, regarding the resist, check out some printmaking suppliers. The "hard ground" they sell is a brush-on resist that's thin and easy to draw on, it's also easy to remove with solvent. Try Graphic Chemical and Ink in Chicago. The hard ground will be easier to use than beeswax, particularly if your design has any fine detail. I think shipping any chemical across a border , post 9-11 would be a nightmare . Now Sunday , holiday weekend and no acid . Nor a line on where to get any . Sadly . Ken Cutt |
#31
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Etching
DoN. Nichols wrote:
According to scutt : Joseph Gwinn wrote: [ ... ] Resist: Bees wax or the tarry stuff used to paint cut surfaces where tree limbs once attached. Etchant: Ferric Chloride [ ... ] Thanks . I don't know of any electronic supply places any where near me but I will start checking tomorrow . Would there be much difference between this and hydrochloric acid ? Well ... the FeCL (Ferric Chloride) is less hazardous, but it is a nasty yellow stain on anything that it gets on. Don't use *either* inside your shop. Both produce vapors which will rust things like mad (which is what you are doing through the beeswax resist anyway. :-) Enjoy, DoN. I had always intended on this being an outside operation . Ken Cutt |
#32
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Etching
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#34
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Etching
Unknown fired this volley in
: Ferric chloride is not chlorine and iron. Ahh... I suppose it's actually tin and fluorine... Ferric chloride can be reduced to divalent iron chloride. You post too slowly. I already corrected myself. LLoyd |
#35
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Etching
On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 11:05:08 -0000, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: ,;Unknown fired this volley in : ,; ,; ,; Ferric chloride is not chlorine and iron. ,; ,;Ahh... I suppose it's actually tin and fluorine... For your information it is more correctly referred to as iron(III) chloride which consists of trivalent iron ions and chloride ions not iron and chlorine. Perhaps I was too subtle for someone pontificating on a subject which they knew very little and what they thought they knew was incorrect. ,; ,; Ferric chloride can be reduced to divalent iron chloride. ,; ,;You post too slowly. I already corrected myself. ,; ,;LLoyd |
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