"Mark Rand" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 05:42:09 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 12:03:41 +0100, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Peter" quickly quoth:

In England it has even been mooted that the ownership of
lathes might be subject to police approval because of
their use to bore out the barrels of illegal guns.

What I don't understand is why the ownership of
kitchen knives is not also so subject?

It IS! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm

And swords, meat cleavers, axes, and machetes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/s...st/4788881.stm

And now GLASSES in pubs!
http://my.opera.com/whoisjohngalt/blog/show.dml/282061

UKers must feel SOOO SAFE nowadays...


Not bad, not bad:-

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita

But you have so far to go, to catch Saudi Arabia! (It's probably all of
those illegal meat cleavers the Brits have. g)

--
Ed Huntress

"Joe Pfeiffer" wrote in message
...
"RAM³" writes:

FWIW, I, too, am happy that my house is paid for and in a small rural
town...

Me too. My neighborhood actually has some covenants, which nobody
pays any real attention to, and no HOA has ever been formed, though
the covenants call for one. A few months ago, a neighbor asked me if
I'd mind if he put up an open carport (since they're banned). I
answered, "see that metal storage shed in my back yard?"


Be carefull what you say the lawyers are listening, you could end up having
a lawyer
running your HOA weather you like it or not. In a recent case a judge put a
accountant in
charge of a inactive HOA. Guess who comes out ahead.

The judge appointed accountant Phillip Schechter to be the association
receiver, which means for now he is the association president and its board
of directors. We've learned Schechter is getting paid for it and so is his
accounting firm.

"There's a lot of people that are going to benefit from this association,"
said Perez. "Of course, the ones that are paying for it are not going to see
anything."


http://cbs4.com/topstories/local_story_201220101.html

Best Regards
Tom.

On Aug 28, 5:28 pm, Gunner wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:15:31 -0700, Fred the Red Shirt

wrote:

I do not know of ANY municipality, village or even county that does
not have occupancy limits for housing.

Yes and?

And, as I made it clear before, plainly that is not a motivation
for recognizing HOAs.


How many are eforced?


Dunno. I am aware of one being enforced in Shaker Heights, Ohio.

I live in So. Cal...so dont try blowing smoke up our collective butts.


What does where you live have to do with HOAs?

--

FF

"azotic" writes:

Be carefull what you say the lawyers are listening, you could end up having
a lawyer
running your HOA weather you like it or not. In a recent case a judge put a
accountant in
charge of a inactive HOA. Guess who comes out ahead.

The judge appointed accountant Phillip Schechter to be the association
receiver, which means for now he is the association president and its board
of directors. We've learned Schechter is getting paid for it and so is his
accounting firm.

"There's a lot of people that are going to benefit from this association,"
said Perez. "Of course, the ones that are paying for it are not going to see
anything."

http://cbs4.com/topstories/local_story_201220101.html

Yikes. The part about it happening without the residents hearing
until too late is the really scary part.

Yes! We have a HOA! It's active! It works great! I promise!

Brent wrote:

On Aug 28, 10:38 am, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 07:22:14 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Brent quickly quoth:



On Aug 27, 10:27 pm, "Mike Henry" wrote:
"azotic" wrote in message

...

The article in the link is of concern to anyone with a home shop. If
you have a neighbor thats a pain in the ass now just wait till he has the
power he so desires to run your life with the full force of the law
to back him up.

http://www.coloradoan.com/apps/pbcs....070827/NEWS01/...

Best Regards
Tom.

Was there something specific in that article about home shops? If so I
missed it.

We live in a townhome in a pretty nice area and I've had zero complaints
from neighbors on any of the tools in use in my home shop, including a
medium-sized CNC mill that can make a bit of noise late evenings. The HOA
pays for outside maintenance which leaves me more time in the shop - seems
like a fair trade to me.

Mike

Its a "power corrupts" concern. You may have an excellent HOA for now
who respect your privacy but the other problem is a few bad apples on
the HOA's committee with no common sense or skills sense or an
elevated sense of danger can whittle around the rules to suppress home
shops or to allow inside searches or to eventually use helicopter to
incspect the neighbours yards.

Helicopters are already in use by city/county governments here in the
USA. I kiddingly showed the black helicopter in the field next to my
old home when that thread came up here last year. Cities are using
chopper surveilance to pick up tax evasion. Build that new shop
without a permit or tax audit? Busted!

You cant just "opt out" of the HOA and their rules can be gradually
nudged though HOA meetings where a 2/3 majority in the meeting
(Attended by less than of 10% of the homeowers) could push an unwanted
chage to most of your community.

That's scary, isn't it? The fewer the voters we get each year could
soon stink from that same effect.

Dontg et me wrorng i'm not a big fan of the abandoned car on blocks
int he front yard, and for now i'm that neighbour with the abandoned
tv thats too big for garbage pickup

Freecycle it. www.freecycle.org But a word of caution about that:
Our local Freecycle group just bailed from Freecycle's auspices due to
their wanting to collect email addresses and other data for some
unknown reason. We're now Rogue Valley Recyclers.

and the shipping container in need
of cleaning arriving today (But i will be getting a dumpster down here
this fall to get most of my crap out

--

According to our strength of character and our clarity of vision, we will
endure, we will succeed, we will have contributed something to make life
where we were and as we lived it better, brighter, and more beautiful.
-- Frank Lloyd Wright

Up here in canada some big cities use them at a policing level. Other
than the occasional threat of traffic enforcement what the have proven
MOST effective for if finding marijuana grow ops since the are
equipped with infrared cameras at night and the first law of
thermodynamics can often create unexplained heat signatures in places
where there shouldnt be (Why does the camera show that garage at 28C
when its only 10C outside and the house is closer to 20C.... HMMMM

They tried that in the US and the supreme court banned it.

On Aug 28, 7:42 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
Brent wrote:

On Aug 28, 10:38 am, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 07:22:14 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Brent quickly quoth:

On Aug 27, 10:27 pm, "Mike Henry" wrote:
"azotic" wrote in message

...

The article in the link is of concern to anyone with a home shop. If
you have a neighbor thats a pain in the ass now just wait till he has the
power he so desires to run your life with the full force of the law
to back him up.

http://www.coloradoan.com/apps/pbcs....070827/NEWS01/...

Best Regards
Tom.

Was there something specific in that article about home shops? If so I
missed it.

We live in a townhome in a pretty nice area and I've had zero complaints
from neighbors on any of the tools in use in my home shop, including a
medium-sized CNC mill that can make a bit of noise late evenings. The HOA
pays for outside maintenance which leaves me more time in the shop - seems
like a fair trade to me.

Mike

Its a "power corrupts" concern. You may have an excellent HOA for now
who respect your privacy but the other problem is a few bad apples on
the HOA's committee with no common sense or skills sense or an
elevated sense of danger can whittle around the rules to suppress home
shops or to allow inside searches or to eventually use helicopter to
incspect the neighbours yards.

Helicopters are already in use by city/county governments here in the
USA. I kiddingly showed the black helicopter in the field next to my
old home when that thread came up here last year. Cities are using
chopper surveilance to pick up tax evasion. Build that new shop
without a permit or tax audit? Busted!

You cant just "opt out" of the HOA and their rules can be gradually
nudged though HOA meetings where a 2/3 majority in the meeting
(Attended by less than of 10% of the homeowers) could push an unwanted
chage to most of your community.

That's scary, isn't it? The fewer the voters we get each year could
soon stink from that same effect.

Dontg et me wrorng i'm not a big fan of the abandoned car on blocks
int he front yard, and for now i'm that neighbour with the abandoned
tv thats too big for garbage pickup

Freecycle it. www.freecycle.orgBut a word of caution about that:
Our local Freecycle group just bailed from Freecycle's auspices due to
their wanting to collect email addresses and other data for some
unknown reason. We're now Rogue Valley Recyclers.

and the shipping container in need
of cleaning arriving today (But i will be getting a dumpster down here
this fall to get most of my crap out

--

According to our strength of character and our clarity of vision, we will
endure, we will succeed, we will have contributed something to make life
where we were and as we lived it better, brighter, and more beautiful.
-- Frank Lloyd Wright

Up here in canada some big cities use them at a policing level. Other
than the occasional threat of traffic enforcement what the have proven
MOST effective for if finding marijuana grow ops since the are
equipped with infrared cameras at night and the first law of
thermodynamics can often create unexplained heat signatures in places
where there shouldnt be (Why does the camera show that garage at 28C
when its only 10C outside and the house is closer to 20C.... HMMMM

They tried that in the US and the supreme court banned it.

helicopter spottign of urban grow ops?

WTF did the police do? Try and issue a search warrant because your
garage looked warm? The abnormal eat itself doesnt say or do ANYTHING
illegal

Making your property a "Location of interest" to find good old
fashioned proof is different.

But then again canadian police and specifically the Quebec "state
troopers" proved how silly they were when they tried going undercover
at protest and got ejected from the protest for looking like they
were instigating a riot.

Brent Ottawa Canada

Brent wrote:

On Aug 28, 7:42 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
Brent wrote:

On Aug 28, 10:38 am, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 07:22:14 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Brent quickly quoth:

On Aug 27, 10:27 pm, "Mike Henry" wrote:
"azotic" wrote in message

...

The article in the link is of concern to anyone with a home shop. If
you have a neighbor thats a pain in the ass now just wait till he has the
power he so desires to run your life with the full force of the law
to back him up.

http://www.coloradoan.com/apps/pbcs....070827/NEWS01/...

Best Regards
Tom.

Was there something specific in that article about home shops? If so I
missed it.

We live in a townhome in a pretty nice area and I've had zero complaints
from neighbors on any of the tools in use in my home shop, including a
medium-sized CNC mill that can make a bit of noise late evenings. The HOA
pays for outside maintenance which leaves me more time in the shop - seems
like a fair trade to me.

Mike

Its a "power corrupts" concern. You may have an excellent HOA for now
who respect your privacy but the other problem is a few bad apples on
the HOA's committee with no common sense or skills sense or an
elevated sense of danger can whittle around the rules to suppress home
shops or to allow inside searches or to eventually use helicopter to
incspect the neighbours yards.

Helicopters are already in use by city/county governments here in the
USA. I kiddingly showed the black helicopter in the field next to my
old home when that thread came up here last year. Cities are using
chopper surveilance to pick up tax evasion. Build that new shop
without a permit or tax audit? Busted!

You cant just "opt out" of the HOA and their rules can be gradually
nudged though HOA meetings where a 2/3 majority in the meeting
(Attended by less than of 10% of the homeowers) could push an unwanted
chage to most of your community.

That's scary, isn't it? The fewer the voters we get each year could
soon stink from that same effect.

Dontg et me wrorng i'm not a big fan of the abandoned car on blocks
int he front yard, and for now i'm that neighbour with the abandoned
tv thats too big for garbage pickup

Freecycle it. www.freecycle.orgBut a word of caution about that:
Our local Freecycle group just bailed from Freecycle's auspices due to
their wanting to collect email addresses and other data for some
unknown reason. We're now Rogue Valley Recyclers.

and the shipping container in need
of cleaning arriving today (But i will be getting a dumpster down here
this fall to get most of my crap out

--

According to our strength of character and our clarity of vision, we will
endure, we will succeed, we will have contributed something to make life
where we were and as we lived it better, brighter, and more beautiful.
-- Frank Lloyd Wright

Up here in canada some big cities use them at a policing level. Other
than the occasional threat of traffic enforcement what the have proven
MOST effective for if finding marijuana grow ops since the are
equipped with infrared cameras at night and the first law of
thermodynamics can often create unexplained heat signatures in places
where there shouldnt be (Why does the camera show that garage at 28C
when its only 10C outside and the house is closer to 20C.... HMMMM

They tried that in the US and the supreme court banned it.

helicopter spottign of urban grow ops?

WTF did the police do? Try and issue a search warrant because your
garage looked warm? The abnormal eat itself doesnt say or do ANYTHING
illegal

Making your property a "Location of interest" to find good old
fashioned proof is different.

The supreme court ruled that IR surveillance of a property was
sufficiently invasive (seeing through walls effectively) that a warrant
would be required. Therefore any touring around neighborhoods or flying
over them while surveiling with IR equipment was illegal. If they find a
suspect property through other legal means and get a warrant they can
then do IR surveillance and add that to their evidence.


But then again canadian police and specifically the Quebec "state
troopers" proved how silly they were when they tried going undercover
at protest and got ejected from the protest for looking like they
were instigating a riot.

Nice.

On Aug 28, 8:32 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
Brent wrote:

On Aug 28, 7:42 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
Brent wrote:

On Aug 28, 10:38 am, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 07:22:14 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Brent quickly quoth:

On Aug 27, 10:27 pm, "Mike Henry" wrote:
"azotic" wrote in message

...

The article in the link is of concern to anyone with a home shop. If
you have a neighbor thats a pain in the ass now just wait till he has the
power he so desires to run your life with the full force of the law
to back him up.

http://www.coloradoan.com/apps/pbcs....070827/NEWS01/...

Best Regards
Tom.

Was there something specific in that article about home shops? If so I
missed it.

We live in a townhome in a pretty nice area and I've had zero complaints
from neighbors on any of the tools in use in my home shop, including a
medium-sized CNC mill that can make a bit of noise late evenings. The HOA
pays for outside maintenance which leaves me more time in the shop - seems
like a fair trade to me.

Mike

Its a "power corrupts" concern. You may have an excellent HOA for now
who respect your privacy but the other problem is a few bad apples on
the HOA's committee with no common sense or skills sense or an
elevated sense of danger can whittle around the rules to suppress home
shops or to allow inside searches or to eventually use helicopter to
incspect the neighbours yards.

Helicopters are already in use by city/county governments here in the
USA. I kiddingly showed the black helicopter in the field next to my
old home when that thread came up here last year. Cities are using
chopper surveilance to pick up tax evasion. Build that new shop
without a permit or tax audit? Busted!

You cant just "opt out" of the HOA and their rules can be gradually
nudged though HOA meetings where a 2/3 majority in the meeting
(Attended by less than of 10% of the homeowers) could push an unwanted
chage to most of your community.

That's scary, isn't it? The fewer the voters we get each year could
soon stink from that same effect.

Dontg et me wrorng i'm not a big fan of the abandoned car on blocks
int he front yard, and for now i'm that neighbour with the abandoned
tv thats too big for garbage pickup

Freecycle it. www.freecycle.orgButa word of caution about that:
Our local Freecycle group just bailed from Freecycle's auspices due to
their wanting to collect email addresses and other data for some
unknown reason. We're now Rogue Valley Recyclers.

and the shipping container in need
of cleaning arriving today (But i will be getting a dumpster down here
this fall to get most of my crap out

--

According to our strength of character and our clarity of vision, we will
endure, we will succeed, we will have contributed something to make life
where we were and as we lived it better, brighter, and more beautiful.
-- Frank Lloyd Wright

Up here in canada some big cities use them at a policing level. Other
than the occasional threat of traffic enforcement what the have proven
MOST effective for if finding marijuana grow ops since the are
equipped with infrared cameras at night and the first law of
thermodynamics can often create unexplained heat signatures in places
where there shouldnt be (Why does the camera show that garage at 28C
when its only 10C outside and the house is closer to 20C.... HMMMM

They tried that in the US and the supreme court banned it.

helicopter spottign of urban grow ops?

WTF did the police do? Try and issue a search warrant because your
garage looked warm? The abnormal eat itself doesnt say or do ANYTHING
illegal

Making your property a "Location of interest" to find good old
fashioned proof is different.

The supreme court ruled that IR surveillance of a property was
sufficiently invasive (seeing through walls effectively) that a warrant
would be required. Therefore any touring around neighborhoods or flying
over them while surveiling with IR equipment was illegal. If they find a
suspect property through other legal means and get a warrant they can
then do IR surveillance and add that to their evidence.



But then again canadian police and specifically the Quebec "state
troopers" proved how silly they were when they tried going undercover
at protest and got ejected from the protest for looking like they
were instigating a riot.

Nice.

I saw the video. its somewhere on youtube too for the montebello
summit. THese 3 guys in maks and holding rocks are ostracized fom the
main body of the protest the while their faces are still covered and
they are armed te MAGICALLY step through three rows of fully equipped
riot cops. IT made the Undercover Cops look more like the "Keystone"
cops. Funniest thing is I'm sure the sponsoring union would have
WELCOMED appropriate undercover cops into their protest to observe the
calm and peaceful protest. since ther big "issue" a the montebello
summit was the softwood lumber issue. But the Quebec provincial police
"Surete du Quebec" they call themselves made themselve look like turds
instead of proper undercover observers.

I dont object to undercover cops "inserting" themselves into major
protests. But Looking like twits and acting like it invalidates the
purpose of them being there

It was some of the funniest news I've seen in a long time.

Brent P
Ottawa Canada

On Aug 28, 1:28 pm, Gunner wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:15:31 -0700, Fred the Red Shirt

wrote:

I do not know of ANY municipality, village or even county that does
not have occupancy limits for housing.

Yes and? How many are eforced?

I live in So. Cal...so dont try blowing smoke up our collective butts.

Gunner

Welcome to the municipal tradeoff

Here in ottawa the "property standards" bylaws are online and visible
UNFORTUNATLEY they are NOT searchable under their common name of
Eyesore

Oer her out bylaw enforcement is SOOOOO fixated n parking that they
have over 16 MILLION dollars in fines levied that are unpaid. And
every person living in my province and quebec as well HAS to pay their
parking fines to renew their license. Meaning they have racked up 16
million in "out of state" fines where the people told them to get
bent.

I am in violation of a few of the "Property standards" rulesotherwise
known as "eyesore" rules

If the city enforced those instead of having their hard on for parking
i'd be happy to comply i know i break the rules i found the rules and
i find them to NOT be unreasonable (I'm also hoping to have met them
by the time the snow flies anyhowbut that not their business)

Its all about wat the city "chooses" to enforce and what would make
the city money

they would make hundreds in parking fines in the time a bylaw officer
would take to cite me with a 45 day warning.

So they only enforce rules like that on a complaint basis

The law is how hard you complain not what the law "Is"

Brent
Ottawa Canada

Pete C. wrote:

Up here in canada some big cities use them at a policing level. Other
than the occasional threat of traffic enforcement what the have proven
MOST effective for if finding marijuana grow ops since the are
equipped with infrared cameras at night and the first law of
thermodynamics can often create unexplained heat signatures in places
where there shouldnt be (Why does the camera show that garage at 28C
when its only 10C outside and the house is closer to 20C.... HMMMM


They tried that in the US and the supreme court banned it.

Same happened in BC when they tried to use the IR surveys to raid grow
ops. Said it was an unwarranted invasion of the privacy.

At the time that decision came down, they thought that perhaps 1 house
in 20 or so in the lower mainland had some grow activity level in it.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

On Aug 28, 3:57 pm, "RAM³" wrote:
Gunner wrote :

People have asked why I choose to remain in a small, semi-dying town
rather than moving to the metro areas I work in.

I tell them that Im expecting the housing market to implode, Im living
in a house thats paid for and the property taxes are $450 a year and
will be safe and snug when the housing tracts are defaulted on,
property taxes are rising at magnitude rates and so forth.

People DO tend to forget the early '80s when the same situation held:
Bank/S&L failures through wide-scale depreciation of "creatively-financed"
housing that the buyers simply walked away from.

Some Subdivisions/"Housing Developments" have strict covenants that, in
some cases, seem to be intended to preserve the images in the original
developers' brochures rather than for any other purpose: specified roofing
materials, specified yard appearance, etc.

In the Quarter-Century since, a whole new generation of home-buyers has
entered the marketplace and, now, are learning the same old lessons about
such things as "adjustable-rate" (aka "Balloon-Payment") mortgages, petty-
minded HOA officials, and deed-enforced restrictions.

FWIW, I, too, am happy that my house is paid for and in a small rural
town...


People DO tend to forget the early '80s when the same situation held:
Bank/S&L failures through wide-scale depreciation of "creatively-financed"
housing that the buyers simply walked away from.


Since the bankruptcy laws were changed, it will be much, much harder
to just walk away from a house mortgage than it was in the 80s.

TMT

On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 23:03:45 +0100, with neither quill nor qualm, Mark
Rand quickly quoth:

On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 05:42:09 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 12:03:41 +0100, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Peter" quickly quoth:

In England it has even been mooted that the ownership of
lathes might be subject to police approval because of
their use to bore out the barrels of illegal guns.

What I don't understand is why the ownership of
kitchen knives is not also so subject?

It IS! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm

And swords, meat cleavers, axes, and machetes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/s...st/4788881.stm

And now GLASSES in pubs!
http://my.opera.com/whoisjohngalt/blog/show.dml/282061

UKers must feel SOOO SAFE nowadays...


Not bad, not bad:-

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita

Now compare your other crime rates against the U.S. and the world.
It's not a pretty picture. Australia (#1), UK, and Canada (all
countries with strict gun laws/bans) have burglary rates in the top
ten worldwide.

--

According to our strength of character and our clarity of vision, we will
endure, we will succeed, we will have contributed something to make life
where we were and as we lived it better, brighter, and more beautiful.
-- Frank Lloyd Wright

On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 18:04:54 -0700, Brent
wrote:

On Aug 28, 1:28 pm, Gunner wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:15:31 -0700, Fred the Red Shirt

wrote:

I do not know of ANY municipality, village or even county that does
not have occupancy limits for housing.

Yes and? How many are eforced?

I live in So. Cal...so dont try blowing smoke up our collective butts.

Gunner

Welcome to the municipal tradeoff

Here in ottawa the "property standards" bylaws are online and visible
UNFORTUNATLEY they are NOT searchable under their common name of
Eyesore

Oer her out bylaw enforcement is SOOOOO fixated n parking that they
have over 16 MILLION dollars in fines levied that are unpaid. And
every person living in my province and quebec as well HAS to pay their
parking fines to renew their license. Meaning they have racked up 16
million in "out of state" fines where the people told them to get
bent.

I am in violation of a few of the "Property standards" rulesotherwise
known as "eyesore" rules

If the city enforced those instead of having their hard on for parking
i'd be happy to comply i know i break the rules i found the rules and
i find them to NOT be unreasonable (I'm also hoping to have met them
by the time the snow flies anyhowbut that not their business)

Its all about wat the city "chooses" to enforce and what would make
the city money

they would make hundreds in parking fines in the time a bylaw officer
would take to cite me with a 45 day warning.

So they only enforce rules like that on a complaint basis

The law is how hard you complain not what the law "Is"

Brent
Ottawa Canada
In the late 1950's, the city fathers in Ottawa had things so screwed
up that some people refused to accept transfers there, even with
substantial pay increases. They tried to beautify the city to the
point that it was impossible to live there. I do have a lot of good
memories of working there in the construction seasons of '76, '77 &
'78, either living in hotels or camping at Greely.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On 28 Aug 2007 17:29:57 -0600, Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:
"azotic" writes:

Be carefull what you say the lawyers are listening, you could end up having
a lawyer running your HOA weather you like it or not. In a recent case a
judge put an accountant in charge of a inactive HOA. Guess who comes out ahead.

The judge appointed accountant Phillip Schechter to be the association
receiver, which means for now he is the association president and its board
of directors. We've learned Schechter is getting paid for it and so is his
accounting firm.

"There's a lot of people that are going to benefit from this association,"
said Perez. "Of course, the ones that are paying for it are not going to see
anything."

http://cbs4.com/topstories/local_story_201220101.html

Yikes. The part about it happening without the residents hearing
until too late is the really scary part.

Yes! We have a HOA! It's active! It works great! I promise!

Hey, HOA's aren't all bad, I do a lot of work for them. They have
private streetlights on the streets, detail lights on the monument
signs at the entrance, irrigation controls and path lights in the
greenbelts - all things that need power to work, and someone to fix
them when they don't get it.

If the HOA is run properly by conscientious people, they work. They
bargain a good rate for the gardeners, and fund reserve accounts so
they can replace big items like roofs every 12 years without any
Special Assessment surprises needed. And if you can't live with the
rules they told you about when you bought in, that's your problem.

And I realize that most of the people in this NG would be a very bad
fit for living in a HOA with restrictive CC&R's - I know I would be...

They won't let you park your cars outside and build a workshop in
the garage. And they don't allow any resident vehicle parking outside
the garage, even if it's a truck that won't fit in the garage.

They get nervous about storing things labeled "Flammable" and
"Explosive" and "Corrosive" in your garage, and would freak if you put
an honest Fire Dept. Hazard Warning Diamond sign up on the garage door
with a lot of 3's and 4's and a -W- on it...

Heaven forbid you get the urge to put a Vertical Mill in the Living
Room because it's the only room with a cathedral ceiling. And they
get REALLY annoyed about storing stuff on tarp-covered pallets in the
Guest Parking spaces... ;-)

(The only guy I know with a full woodworking shop {that stores away}
in a condo garage is also the HOA President. He does all the millwork
replacing fences and gates for free, so they look the other way.)

Where HOA's get bad is when you have a condo complex with large
amounts of common areas to maintain (common roof and exterior walls,
lots of landscaping, pool and spa, tennis courts) that need to be
maintained, and the ratio of resident owners drops and the complex
swings to above roughly 33% renters.

Suddenly the answer to every problem big or small is to patch, to
defer and delay as long as possible. They repeatedly slap another
layer of Henry's Mastic on the roof and defer replacement, till the AC
serviceman falls through a rotten spot. Then they have to rebuild the
roof, replace all the decking plywood and half the rafters.

When they finally break down and fix something it costs triple.
Because you aren't repairing, you are rebuilding from scratch.

And you get the occasional crooked Board Member or Property Manager
who gets vendor kickbacks on overpriced no-bid contracts and other
illegal perks - but you have to watch for that stuff everywhere.

-- Bruce --

On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:28:19 -0700, Gunner
wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:15:31 -0700, Fred the Red Shirt
wrote:

I do not know of ANY municipality, village or even county that does
not have occupancy limits for housing.

Yes and? How many are enforced?
I live in So. Cal...so dont try blowing smoke up our collective butts.

Well, Simi does enforce their occupancy ordinances *if* they are
told about it, but that's about the only place I know of around here
that takes it seriously.

Beverly Hills probably, but they have the money to toss around and a
very limited supply of apartment rentals. (And excellent schools.)

-- Bruce --

"Brent" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Aug 27, 10:27 pm, "Mike Henry" wrote:
"azotic" wrote in message

...

The article in the link is of concern to anyone with a home shop. If
you have a neighbor thats a pain in the ass now just wait till he has
the
power he so desires to run your life with the full force of the law
to back him up.

http://www.coloradoan.com/apps/pbcs....070827/NEWS01/...

Best Regards
Tom.

Was there something specific in that article about home shops? If so I
missed it.

We live in a townhome in a pretty nice area and I've had zero complaints
from neighbors on any of the tools in use in my home shop, including a
medium-sized CNC mill that can make a bit of noise late evenings. The
HOA
pays for outside maintenance which leaves me more time in the shop -
seems
like a fair trade to me.

Mike

Its a "power corrupts" concern. You may have an excellent HOA for now
who respect your privacy but the other problem is a few bad apples on
the HOA's committee with no common sense or skills sense or an
elevated sense of danger can whittle around the rules to suppress home
shops or to allow inside searches or to eventually use helicopter to
incspect the neighbours yards.

You cant just "opt out" of the HOA and their rules can be gradually
nudged though HOA meetings where a 2/3 majority in the meeting
(Attended by less than of 10% of the homeowers) could push an unwanted
chage to most of your community.

Dontg et me wrorng i'm not a big fan of the abandoned car on blocks
int he front yard, and for now i'm that neighbour with the abandoned
tv thats too big for garbage pickup and the shipping container in need
of cleaning arriving today (But i will be getting a dumpster down here
this fall to get most of my crap out

Power corruption is always a possibility but I'm not too worried. We've
been here 12 years with nary a shop-related problem and attend most of the
HOA social functions so most folks know us at least a little. AIR, it takes
a 2/3 majority of all homeowners to effect a major change in the byloaws and
that is generally difficult to achieve. Being a good neighbor doesn't hurt
and it may also help a little that I'm doing a CNC engraving (gratis) for
the ex-president of the HOA g. He did have a minor tiff with one of the
neighbors but the board was reasonable and saw things his way. Common sense
seems to prevail here, but I can see where that may not be the case
everywhere.

"Joe Pfeiffer" wrote:

Me too. My neighborhood actually has some covenants, which nobody
pays any real attention to, and no HOA has ever been formed, though
the covenants call for one. A few months ago, a neighbor asked me if
I'd mind if he put up an open carport (since they're banned). I
answered, "see that metal storage shed in my back yard?"

If he ever gets into trouble about his carport, guess what the first words
out of his mouth are going to be?

Jon

On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:19:34 -0700, Fred the Red Shirt
wrote:

On Aug 28, 5:28 pm, Gunner wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:15:31 -0700, Fred the Red Shirt

wrote:

I do not know of ANY municipality, village or even county that does
not have occupancy limits for housing.

Yes and?

And, as I made it clear before, plainly that is not a motivation
for recognizing HOAs.


How many are eforced?


Dunno. I am aware of one being enforced in Shaker Heights, Ohio.

I live in So. Cal...so dont try blowing smoke up our collective butts.


What does where you live have to do with HOAs?

The subject was 3-6 families living in a single dwelling. Quite
common in So. Cal.

Gunner

Not unusal here in Hawaii either. Not always related either
Karl

On Aug 28, 10:15 pm, Gunner wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:19:34 -0700, Fred the Red Shirt





wrote:
On Aug 28, 5:28 pm, Gunner wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:15:31 -0700, Fred the Red Shirt

wrote:

I do not know of ANY municipality, village or even county that does
not have occupancy limits for housing.

Yes and?

And, as I made it clear before, plainly that is not a motivation
for recognizing HOAs.

How many are eforced?

Dunno. I am aware of one being enforced in Shaker Heights, Ohio.

I live in So. Cal...so dont try blowing smoke up our collective butts.

What does where you live have to do with HOAs?

The subject was 3-6 families living in a single dwelling. Quite
common in So. Cal.

Gunner- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Aug 29, 8:15 am, Gunner wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:19:34 -0700, Fred the Red Shirt



wrote:
On Aug 28, 5:28 pm, Gunner wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:15:31 -0700, Fred the Red Shirt

wrote:

I do not know of ANY municipality, village or even county that does
not have occupancy limits for housing.

Yes and?

And, as I made it clear before, plainly that is not a motivation
for recognizing HOAs.

How many are eforced?

Dunno. I am aware of one being enforced in Shaker Heights, Ohio.

I live in So. Cal...so dont try blowing smoke up our collective butts.

What does where you live have to do with HOAs?

The subject was 3-6 families living in a single dwelling. Quite
common in So. Cal.


No, the subject was HOAs. I'm sure they are all to
common in So Cal as well.

3-6 families living in a single dwelling and an HOA are
two problems, not one problem and one solution.

--

FF

On Aug 29, 10:25 am, Maxwell Lol wrote:
Larry Jaques writes:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...murders-per-ca...

Now compare your other crime rates against the U.S. and the world.
It's not a pretty picture.

http://www.nationmaster.com/red/pie-...ime-burglaries


SPLORF! The US has a larger popualtion that most other countries.


US's rankings sorta gives you a warm feeling, eh?

Would you believe:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ies-per-capita

--

FF

In article ,
"RAM³" wrote:

FWIW, I, too, am happy that my house is paid for and in a small rural
town...

I'm happy that my house is paid for and OUTSIDE a small rural town

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:54:32 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Brent quickly quoth:

someone wrote:
But then again canadian police and specifically the Quebec "state
troopers" proved how silly they were when they tried going undercover
at protest and got ejected from the protest for looking like they
were instigating a riot.

Nice.

I saw the video. its somewhere on youtube too for the montebello
summit. THese 3 guys in maks and holding rocks are ostracized fom the
main body of the protest the while their faces are still covered and
they are armed te MAGICALLY step through three rows of fully equipped
riot cops. IT made the Undercover Cops look more like the "Keystone"
cops. Funniest thing is I'm sure the sponsoring union would have
WELCOMED appropriate undercover cops into their protest to observe the
calm and peaceful protest. since ther big "issue" a the montebello
summit was the softwood lumber issue. But the Quebec provincial police
"Surete du Quebec" they call themselves made themselve look like turds
instead of proper undercover observers.

Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St1-WTc1kow


I dont object to undercover cops "inserting" themselves into major
protests. But Looking like twits and acting like it invalidates the
purpose of them being there

It sure does.

--

According to our strength of character and our clarity of vision, we will
endure, we will succeed, we will have contributed something to make life
where we were and as we lived it better, brighter, and more beautiful.
-- Frank Lloyd Wright

On 29 Aug 2007 06:25:46 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, Maxwell
Lol quickly quoth:

Larry Jaques writes:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita

Now compare your other crime rates against the U.S. and the world.
It's not a pretty picture.

http://www.nationmaster.com/red/pie-...ime-burglaries

US's rankings sorta gives you a warm feeling, eh?

Totals sure don't, Bevis. But look at the _per-capita_ stats we were
comparing:
http://www.nationmaster.com/red/grap...capita&b_map=1

--

According to our strength of character and our clarity of vision, we will
endure, we will succeed, we will have contributed something to make life
where we were and as we lived it better, brighter, and more beautiful.
-- Frank Lloyd Wright

In article , Maxwell Lol wrote:
Larry Jaques writes:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita

Now compare your other crime rates against the U.S. and the world.
It's not a pretty picture.

http://www.nationmaster.com/red/pie-...ime-burglaries

US's rankings sorta gives you a warm feeling, eh?

Dope! The US has 2.5x the number of burglaries as the UK.... and 5x the
population.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...


If the HOA is run properly by conscientious people, they work. They
bargain a good rate for the gardeners, and fund reserve accounts so
they can replace big items like roofs every 12 years without any
Special Assessment surprises needed. And if you can't live with the
rules they told you about when you bought in, that's your problem.


I wonder what kind of roof is only expected to last 12 years?

"Jon Danniken" writes:

"Joe Pfeiffer" wrote:

Me too. My neighborhood actually has some covenants, which nobody
pays any real attention to, and no HOA has ever been formed, though
the covenants call for one. A few months ago, a neighbor asked me if
I'd mind if he put up an open carport (since they're banned). I
answered, "see that metal storage shed in my back yard?"

If he ever gets into trouble about his carport, guess what the first words
out of his mouth are going to be?

That's if he ever gets any crap from *me* about his carport, which
won't happen. And if the neighbor next to me wants to give him crap
about it, he can respond by pointing to her metal open carport in her
back yard. And so forth.

Sort of MAD doctrine for covenants....

On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 06:59:35 -0700, "Roger Shoaf"
wrote:
"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
.. .

If the HOA is run properly by conscientious people, they work. They
bargain a good rate for the gardeners, and fund reserve accounts so
they can replace big items like roofs every 12 years without any
Special Assessment surprises needed. And if you can't live with the
rules they told you about when you bought in, that's your problem.

I wonder what kind of roof is only expected to last 12 years?

Flat ones with built-up composition roofing. You might get 20 to 25
years out of a roof on a single-family house with extraordinary care.
But HOA's rarely spend the extra money on the "extravagance" of making
an extra-reinforced deck under the roof and putting down walk-path
pads on top of the finished roof - to their own detriment.

With 'constant' (relatively, for a roof) foot traffic up there in
all random directions from repairmen fixing the HVAC equipment, Sat TV
antennas, etc., the roofs rarely see 20 years before the leaks start.

-- Bruce --

Roger Shoaf wrote in article
...

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...


If the HOA is run properly by conscientious people, they work. They
bargain a good rate for the gardeners, and fund reserve accounts so
they can replace big items like roofs every 12 years without any
Special Assessment surprises needed. And if you can't live with the
rules they told you about when you bought in, that's your problem.


I wonder what kind of roof is only expected to last 12 years?




The type that are cheap enough to be able to afford replacing every 12
years.........

On Aug 28, 7:57 am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
On Aug 27, 8:19 pm, Half-Nutz wrote:





On Aug 27, 8:14 pm, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

On Aug 27, 7:49 pm, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

On Aug 27, 7:33 pm, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

On Aug 27, 5:38 pm, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 14:42:29 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
"azotic" quickly quoth:

The article in the link is of concern to anyone with a home shop. If
you have a neighbor thats a pain in the ass now just wait till he has the
power he so desires to run your life with the full force of the law
to back him up.

http://www.coloradoan.com/apps/pbcs....070827/NEWS01/...

I can take one look at that ******* and know he wants something I
don't in a neighborhood. Egad, what's this country coming to?
Socialized color schemes and coordinated lawn colors aren't far off,
are they?

--

According to our strength of character and our clarity of vision, we will
endure, we will succeed, we will have contributed something to make life
where we were and as we lived it better, brighter, and more beautiful.
-- Frank Lloyd Wright
Egad, what's this country coming to?
Socialized color schemes and coordinated lawn colors aren't far off,
are they?

LOL...I know of neighborhoods where that is the REQUIRED norm.

Ignore their rules at your own risk....they have the power to
foreclose on your home...and they do.

And I also don't live there...and NEVER will.

TMT- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"pocket-Nazi's."

I like that term....and I have known a few also.

Always a PITA to live next to....and they are ALWAYS worrying about
their neighbor's business.

They are the kiss of death to a HSMer.

TMT- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

One of the readers had a good point...

"As someone who is/was planning to move to Ft.Collins in the near
future, I am very concerned that could even be considered. I would
look specifically for homes without HOA's.

I know HOA are popular; many people really believe that HOA improve
thier future property value. I believe that by giving away some of
these rights in the Property ownership you will in fact,decrease the
value of the Property.

I totaly agree with Harold
If HOAa are so wonderful, why do real estate ads scream NO HOA when
advertising a non HOA home for sale? Do you ever see a real estate ad
even mentioning that the home is in an HOA?"

A very good point...I have seen ads that mention "NO HOA" but none
that advertise it as a selling point.

Now the other viewpoint is that a HSM could get on the board and
require each home to have a fully equiped shop....then one would have
someone to borrow tools from. ;)

TMT

Unless you are selling, or financing Past your ability to support, WHY
would you want you property values to rise?
It is just another form of tax increase.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Unless you are selling, or financing Past your ability to support, WHY
would you want you property values to rise?
It is just another form of tax increase.- Hide quoted text -

Because people take second mortgages out on that increased property
value to spend on toys.

And that is what has been propping up the Bush economy these last few
years.

Sit back and watch what is going to happen soon to the economy when
people can't borrow against their house's increasing values. My banker
tells me that he has had many very mad and desperate people in his
office when they find out they can't get any more money out of the old
homestead.

You are right that it is another form of tax increase which local
governments have been quick to take advantage of.

Now that house prices are dropping like a rock, those high property
taxes will be around for quite awhile....and the owners will be stuck
paying them for a house that is much less than what they paid for it.

In the right neighborhoods, one will be able to buy two houses for the
price of one...one to live in and the other to put your retirement
shop in.

TMT- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The day to buy a house to convert into your shop that may not be that
far away.....

Of course the HOA would need to give you permission....after you ask
"Pretty Please".....

TMT

Subprime mortgage woes spreading Wed Aug 29, 2:07 AM ET

The subprime mortgage crisis is spreading to a somewhat unexpected
place: homes costing more than $500,000.

As lending has rapidly gotten more restrictive for borrowers taking
out large loans, sales of expensive homes have fallen sharply around
the country during what should be one of the busiest seasons for
buyers and sellers, mortgage bankers and real estate agents say.

To some degree the change is due to difficulty getting financing, as
borrowers are finding fewer lenders willing or able to fund "jumbo"
mortgages, loans for amounts greater than $417,000. Such loans are too
big to be guaranteed by government-sponsored housing finance agencies
Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac or Ginnie Mae.

Given the troubles in the subprime sector, investor appetite for all
types of mortgage loans not guaranteed by housing finance agencies has
nose-dived.

Banks until recently were able to offload the risk of many jumbo
mortgages by selling the loans to investors. But now, as investors
burned by the subprime debacle have become extremely picky about what
they will buy, banks are having to keep more of these loans on their
own books and as a result are charging higher rates.

Some lenders - such as Countrywide Financial Corp. - have made a point
of saying they're now most focused on making loans that can be
guaranteed by Fannie and Freddie.

Other lenders have simply tightened up their lending standards, for
example by no longer making jumbo loans to lenders who can't fully
document their income, even if they make large down payments and have
stellar credit histories.

The banks that are still making jumbo loans are charging substantially
higher rates to compensate for the lack of investor demand. Borrowers
who could have gotten rates as low as 6.5 percent in June are now
having to pay as much as 9 percent.

But aside from the financial impact of higher rates, in certain high-
priced real estate markets, the effect of the suddenly tighter lending
environment is more psychological, mortgage bankers and real estate
agents say, as buyers and sellers alike don't want to plunge into an
uncertain future.

"Showings are down, contracts written are down, and sellers are just
as backed away as buyers are," said Lou Barnes, a partner in mortgage
bank and brokerage Boulder West Financial Services in Boulder, Colo.
The company arranges for financing on many higher-priced condominiums
and houses in the state.

"I think the psychological damage is worse than the financial damage"
which is already bad enough, he said. Even for buyers who have plenty
of cash or can easily afford higher mortgage rates, the sudden change
in the financing environment reduces "the ardor to buy a house unless
you have to," he adds.

With numerous buyers and sellers sidelined, the higher cost of big
mortgages is bound to put downward pressure on home prices should the
lending environment stay tight for a long period of time, said Ellen
Bitton, president of Park Avenue Mortgage, a mortgage bank and
brokerage that does business in several states, including New York,
Florida and Utah.

In New York, the most pronounced effect so far has been at the very
top end of the market, for properties priced $25 million and above,
said Dolly Lenz, vice chairman with Prudential Douglas Elliman.

"Every single person I have at the highest end is on hold. They're
going to wait and see what happens," she said. "It has nothing to do
with them being able to afford" properties or not, Lenz added. "It's a
confidence thing. They somehow feel poorer, whether they are or not."

In California, where the median home price is well above $500,000,
jumbo mortgages are as much as 44 percent of all mortgages issued in
certain metro areas, according to data from First American
LoanPerformance.

In and around San Francisco, where the median home price is about $1.1
million, the tougher financing environment has created a "hesitancy"
and has led to some canceled escrows for buyers around the $1 million
range, said Rick Turley, president of the San Francisco and Peninsula
Region for Coldwell Banker Residential Brokerage.

On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 04:16:11 -0700, Fred the Red Shirt
wrote:

On Aug 29, 8:15 am, Gunner wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:19:34 -0700, Fred the Red Shirt



wrote:
On Aug 28, 5:28 pm, Gunner wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:15:31 -0700, Fred the Red Shirt

wrote:

I do not know of ANY municipality, village or even county that does
not have occupancy limits for housing.

Yes and?

And, as I made it clear before, plainly that is not a motivation
for recognizing HOAs.

How many are eforced?

Dunno. I am aware of one being enforced in Shaker Heights, Ohio.

I live in So. Cal...so dont try blowing smoke up our collective butts.

What does where you live have to do with HOAs?

The subject was 3-6 families living in a single dwelling. Quite
common in So. Cal.


No, the subject was HOAs. I'm sure they are all to
common in So Cal as well.

3-6 families living in a single dwelling and an HOA are
two problems, not one problem and one solution.

The first part of this particular discussion was snipped by the
replier. Restore it and we can discuss it.

gunner

"azotic" wrote:

The article in the link is of concern to anyone with a home shop. If
you have a neighbor thats a pain in the ass now just wait till he has the
power he so desires to run your life with the full force of the law
to back him up.

http://www.coloradoan.com/apps/pbcs....WS01/708270318

Best Regards
Tom.


Buying property subject to a HOA is not for anyone that likes to do and make
things. I'd be interested to learn of any study showing percentages of
Democrats, Liberals, Republicans in HOA's compared to the DLR population as
a whole. There has to be some sort of mindset in play.

Wes

On Aug 29, 1:18 pm, Wes wrote:
"azotic" wrote:
The article in the link is of concern to anyone with a home shop. If
you have a neighbor thats a pain in the ass now just wait till he has the
power he so desires to run your life with the full force of the law
to back him up.

http://www.coloradoan.com/apps/pbcs....070827/NEWS01/...

Best Regards
Tom.

Buying property subject to a HOA is not for anyone that likes to do and make
things. I'd be interested to learn of any study showing percentages of
Democrats, Liberals, Republicans in HOA's compared to the DLR population as
a whole. There has to be some sort of mindset in play.

Wes

LOL...I think you just hit THE ISSUE on the head.

My guess is those individuals who need rules and favor conformity
would thrive in a HOA.

Compulsive need for cleaniness and order (everything in its place)
would be another indicator.

Any guess which political group(s) fit that description?

TMT

Wes wrote:

"azotic" wrote:

The article in the link is of concern to anyone with a home shop. If
you have a neighbor thats a pain in the ass now just wait till he has the
power he so desires to run your life with the full force of the law
to back him up.

http://www.coloradoan.com/apps/pbcs....WS01/708270318

Best Regards
Tom.


Buying property subject to a HOA is not for anyone that likes to do and make
things. I'd be interested to learn of any study showing percentages of
Democrats, Liberals, Republicans in HOA's compared to the DLR population as
a whole. There has to be some sort of mindset in play.

Wes

I don't think you'll find it tracks politics, but rather self
segregationism. Those who want to self segregate do so on a variety of
criteria, be it race, class, religion, politics, age, etc. You'll find
segregated enclaves of all types out there.

On Aug 27, 2:42 pm, "azotic" wrote:
The article in the link is of concern to anyone with a home shop.

This is yet another example of Andy Warhal's "15 minutes of fame".
Either them guy hasn't gotten his yet or the media is looking for more
readers.

Either way, the story has no basis in reality. Stories that include
the word "could" or "might" are pure gossip - NOT news and NOT gospel.


Gary

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 29, 1:18 pm, Wes wrote:
"azotic" wrote:
The article in the link is of concern to anyone with a home shop. If
you have a neighbor thats a pain in the ass now just wait till he has
the
power he so desires to run your life with the full force of the law
to back him up.

http://www.coloradoan.com/apps/pbcs....070827/NEWS01/...

Best Regards
Tom.

Buying property subject to a HOA is not for anyone that likes to do and
make
things. I'd be interested to learn of any study showing percentages of
Democrats, Liberals, Republicans in HOA's compared to the DLR population
as
a whole. There has to be some sort of mindset in play.

Wes

LOL...I think you just hit THE ISSUE on the head.

My guess is those individuals who need rules and favor conformity
would thrive in a HOA.

Compulsive need for cleaniness and order (everything in its place)
would be another indicator.

Any guess which political group(s) fit that description?

Evangelicals?

"Cleanness of body was ever deemed to proceed from a due reverence to
God." -- Francis Bacon, 1605

"Slovenliness is no part of religion. Cleanliness is indeed next to
Godliness." -- John Wesley, 1791

I saw a comment recently that the house of an evangelical missionary would
meet the standards required for a veterinary operating room.

--
Ed Huntress

On Aug 29, 1:45 pm, wrote:
On Aug 27, 2:42 pm, "azotic" wrote:

The article in the link is of concern to anyone with a home shop.

This is yet another example of Andy Warhal's "15 minutes of fame".
Either them guy hasn't gotten his yet or the media is looking for more
readers.

Either way, the story has no basis in reality. Stories that include
the word "could" or "might" are pure gossip - NOT news and NOT gospel.

Gary


Either way, the story has no basis in reality.


I disagree....I have known those who live in a HOA and I have read
many HOA agreements.

It is very real and a real PITA if you find yourself in one when you
wish to do something that is not allowed.

TMT

On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 11:28:17 -0700, Too_Many_Tools
wrote:


Buying property subject to a HOA is not for anyone that likes to do and make
things. I'd be interested to learn of any study showing percentages of
Democrats, Liberals, Republicans in HOA's compared to the DLR population as
a whole. There has to be some sort of mindset in play.

Wes

LOL...I think you just hit THE ISSUE on the head.

My guess is those individuals who need rules and favor conformity
would thrive in a HOA.

Compulsive need for cleaniness and order (everything in its place)
would be another indicator.

Any guess which political group(s) fit that description?

TMT


Based on the Lefts long history of totalitarianism and forceing of the
Nanny State..Id have to say its the Left.

Unless you think Stalin, Mao, Kim Dungwit and FDR were Republicans,
just to name a few....

Gunner

Maxwell Lol wrote:
Larry Jaques writes:


http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita

Now compare your other crime rates against the U.S. and the world.
It's not a pretty picture.


http://www.nationmaster.com/red/pie-...ime-burglaries

US's rankings sorta gives you a warm feeling, eh?

Well! People have to have something to make it worth while
for a burglar to steal it. :-)
...lew...

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
On Aug 29, 10:25 am, Maxwell Lol wrote:
Larry Jaques writes:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...murders-per-ca...
Now compare your other crime rates against the U.S. and the world.
It's not a pretty picture.
http://www.nationmaster.com/red/pie-...ime-burglaries


SPLORF! The US has a larger popualtion that most other countries.


US's rankings sorta gives you a warm feeling, eh?

Would you believe:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ies-per-capita

Some real surprises there. Wonder why
Finland is so high? And Mexico so low?
For that matter, I'm surprised that the
US is so low. Prolly has something to
do with all those firearms in the hands
of civilians