Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be
done by hand. Is this statement true oe false?

"MikeMandaville" wrote in message
ups.com...
Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be
done by hand. Is this statement true oe false?


Is practicality to be considered a factor?

MikeMandaville wrote:
Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be
done by hand. Is this statement true oe false?

It can be, but not as well, and generally not as quick.

MikeMandaville fired this volley in
ups.com:

Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be
done by hand. Is this statement true oe false?



I think it would be difficult if not impossible to do deep-drawn horn
forming by hand, except on the thinnest, softest metals.

One could use hand power to pump a hydraulic horn die, but that's
cheating, no?

One cannot do spinning without a machine.

So... false.

LLoyd

MikeMandaville wrote:

Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be
done by hand. Is this statement true oe false?

False.

But handwork did get us into the machine age.

Wes

Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be
done by hand. Is this statement true oe false?

One could argue that anything done by mills, drills,lathes, and grinders
could all be done by hand. Albeit at an extreme loss in productivity and
accuracy.

if one would add submicron parts and things made with EDM machines... These
are impossible to make by hand. One example part is made near me. A computer
hard disk is a bit like the old phonograph player. The arm and pickup for
the disks is called a suspension assembly. A thousand men in a thousand
years couldn't make one of these by hand.

Karl

"MikeMandaville" wrote in message
ups.com...
Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be
done by hand. Is this statement true oe false?



False.

Best Regards
Tom.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...

One cannot do spinning without a machine.
LLoyd

Sure you can. But then it isn't called spinning, it is called raising and it
has been done for a thousand years.

There is no reason why a reasonably skilled technician can't make seamless
tubing from a sheet of metal with just a hammer and stake.

Somewhere in my library, I have a picture of a copper 6-way tee joint raised
from a single sheet. August Tiesselinck made back during the first world
war.

Paul K. Dickman

"Paul K. Dickman" fired this volley in
:


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...

One cannot do spinning without a machine.
LLoyd

Sure you can. But then it isn't called spinning, it is called raising
and it has been done for a thousand years.

Raising ISN'T spinning merely because of their names. Although similar
shapes may be made, the spinning process yeilds a product that is
distinctive, and cannot be exactly duplicated without a machine.

(I know about the colonial silversmiths, and the degree to which raising
was, um.... RAISED!)

LLoyd

On Aug 23, 8:03 am, MikeMandaville wrote:
Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be
done by hand. Is this statement true oe false?

I say no. Manual accuracy depends on comparing the work to a reference
and removing high spots. You can make extremely straight and flat
reference surfaces by hand but not cylinders or screw threads.

Holtzapffel book 2 (?) is a good reference for the many attempts to
generate an accurate master screw thread by hand.

jw

MikeMandaville wrote:
Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be
done by hand. Is this statement true oe false?

Cutting a usable thread (particularly an inside
thread) without tap or die would be virtually
impossible without a thread-cutting lathe.

Robert Swinney wrote:
A new twist on the old, worn-out "chicken and egg" question. IMO, the original question would have
been more appros to this group had it said "machining operation" rather than "metalworking
operation".

Good point. It was never clarified whether "done
by hand" might include turning a lathe spindle
with your hand...


Bob Swinney
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
.. .
MikeMandaville wrote:
Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be
done by hand. Is this statement true oe false?

Cutting a usable thread (particularly an inside
thread) without tap or die would be virtually
impossible without a thread-cutting lathe.

Jim Stewart fired this volley in
:

Robert Swinney wrote:
A new twist on the old, worn-out "chicken and egg" question. IMO,
the original question would have been more appros to this group had
it said "machining operation" rather than "metalworking operation".

Good point. It was never clarified whether "done
by hand" might include turning a lathe spindle
with your hand...


Nah.... a lathe, powered by electricity or mule is still a machine.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Paul K. Dickman" fired this volley in
:


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...

One cannot do spinning without a machine.
LLoyd

Sure you can. But then it isn't called spinning, it is called raising
and it has been done for a thousand years.

Raising ISN'T spinning merely because of their names. Although similar
shapes may be made, the spinning process yeilds a product that is
distinctive, and cannot be exactly duplicated without a machine.

(I know about the colonial silversmiths, and the degree to which raising
was, um.... RAISED!)

LLoyd

Horse hockey.
Spinning is a production form of raising. The process by which the metal is
simultaneously shrunk in one direction while stretched in another is
precisely the same. Only the tools are different.
Spinning's advantage is that it is less labor intensive, readily uses
thinner materials, forces circular symmetry, and ,with the use of forms,
takes the skill needed for duplication out of the operator's hands.

Take a look at :

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/pkdickma...803850205849/0

And tell me which parts have been spun and which parts have been hammer
raised. (I'll give you a hint. It started as an experiment in spinning
mokume gane. But rapid workhardening and my own lack of skill led to
delamination of the alloys in one piece, and I chose to hammer form it
instead.)

Hammer raising's prime advantage is that circular symmetry is nor required.
The reason you don't see a lot of raisings that look like spinnings is the
same reason that you don't see a lot of castings that look like weldments.
Why spend all that time making something that looks like something you could
have made in 1/4 of an hour.

The colonial smiths did beautiful work even though they were hobbled by a
lack of support industries in their day,but they were ham-fisted compared to
the men swung a hammer during the industrial revolution.

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/pkdickma...804441897228/1

The 6-way is seamless. I am pretty sure the elbow joint has seams in all the
tubes.

Paul K. Dickman

How do you define hand-made? Are you allowed to use hand made tools in the
completion of your project? If so, then everything in the world traces back
to the days when there were no machines, and the first tool was probably a
sharp rock or piece of bone. It's impossible to draw a line between a sharp
rock and the most sophisticated computer-controlled mill or photo-etching
machine.

Hello again, fellows. I have found all of your answers to be thought-
provoking. What stirred me to ask the original question is that is
that for years I have been hearing about soldering, brazing, and
welding techniques being used to build up engines, but until I
discovered Roy Shepherd, I didn't have a good example to follow:

http://www.royuk.co.uk/steam_engines.htm

I sent Roy an email, and he says that he has learned that plumbing
solder, and even electrical solder is okay for these engines.
Considering the easy availability of these soft solders, I have
decided to use them myself for the same purpose, though I do expect to
get to the point where I will need to move to a hard solder instead.
I will have to make a longer drive to get some silver solder, but I
will be able to purchase that locally also. Considering the cost of
solver, though, I think that in the long run, I will be better off
using a hard solder with no silver content. Does anyone have any
recommendations?

Mike Mandaville
Austin, Texas

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:08:06 -0500, Karl Townsend wrote:
Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be
done by hand. Is this statement true oe false?

One could argue that anything done by mills, drills,lathes, and grinders
could all be done by hand. Albeit at an extreme loss in productivity and
accuracy.

if one would add submicron parts and things made with EDM machines... These
are impossible to make by hand. One example part is made near me. A computer
hard disk is a bit like the old phonograph player. The arm and pickup for
the disks is called a suspension assembly. A thousand men in a thousand
years couldn't make one of these by hand.

The ones (flying head arms) I've seen could have been, if you're allowed
to use a microscope, and don't have to manufacture the wire. Can you buy
spring steel in a sheet? (I mean, of course you can, but for the purposes
of this test? ;-) )

Thanks,
Rich

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 17:48:30 +0000, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Jim Stewart fired this volley in
Robert Swinney wrote:
A new twist on the old, worn-out "chicken and egg" question. IMO,
the original question would have been more appros to this group had
it said "machining operation" rather than "metalworking operation".

Good point. It was never clarified whether "done
by hand" might include turning a lathe spindle
with your hand...

Nah.... a lathe, powered by electricity or mule is still a machine.

Yabbut, what if you unplug it, put the mule out to pasture, and
turn it physically with your own hand?

Does that count? ;-)

Thanks,
Rich

clearly false - here are examples:
creating aluminum from bauxite
nanomachining
sputter coating and vacuum forming
any PM technology
anything with tolerances in the millionth of an inch

I'm sure there are others, but the list above will do


"MikeMandaville" wrote in message
ups.com...
Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be
done by hand. Is this statement true oe false?




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Aug 23, 8:08 pm, Rich Grise wrote:
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 17:48:30 +0000, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Jim Stewart fired this volley in
Robert Swinney wrote:
A new twist on the old, worn-out "chicken and egg" question. IMO,
the original question would have been more appros to this group had
it said "machining operation" rather than "metalworking operation".

Good point. It was never clarified whether "done
by hand" might include turning a lathe spindle
with your hand...

Nah.... a lathe, powered by electricity or mule is still a machine.

Yabbut, what if you unplug it, put the mule out to pasture, and
turn it physically with your own hand?

Does that count? ;-)

Thanks,
Rich

I think the distinction falls between a gunsmith drawfiling a barrel
round and a clockmaker with a foot-powered lathe making pivot shafts
with a hand-held graver. Both are expert craftsmen and the gunsmith
could possibly fit two surfaces to micron accuracy by smoking them,
but I think only the clockmaker could generate a true cylinder.

But today, why bother? Use any excuse you can find to justify buying a
lathe.

jw

"Paul K. Dickman" fired this volley in
:

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/pkdickma.../5764607624051
95515/photo/294928804441897228/1

That six-way is truly a work of art.

LLoyd

"MikeMandaville" wrote in message
ups.com...
Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be
done by hand. Is this statement true oe false?

False.

On Aug 23, 8:55?pm, "William Noble" wrote:

clearly false - here are examples:

...anything with tolerances in the millionth of an inch

I'm sure there are others, but the list above will do

Thank you, William. In the future, if I ever need to machine
something in my home shop to within one one-millionth of an inch, I
will remember that I will not be able to do the job by hand. Let's
see now, where did I put that manual boring bar! ;-)

Mike Mandaville
Austin, Texas

In article . com,
MikeMandaville wrote:

On Aug 23, 8:55?pm, "William Noble" wrote:

clearly false - here are examples:

...anything with tolerances in the millionth of an inch

I'm sure there are others, but the list above will do

Thank you, William. In the future, if I ever need to machine
something in my home shop to within one one-millionth of an inch, I
will remember that I will not be able to do the job by hand. Let's
see now, where did I put that manual boring bar! ;-)

Mike Mandaville
Austin, Texas

I have no problem at all machining to millionths: It's the ending up
with so many too many or too few that gets me in trouble.

Lessee now, this piece is 9 thousand millionths too small. Darn!

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 10:05:12 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, John
Husvar quickly quoth:

I have no problem at all machining to millionths: It's the ending up
with so many too many or too few that gets me in trouble.

Lessee now, this piece is 9 thousand millionths too small. Darn!

Get out your metal stretcher, John.

------
We're born hungry, wet, 'n naked, and it gets worse from there.

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 10:05:12 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, John
Husvar quickly quoth:


I have no problem at all machining to millionths: It's the ending up
with so many too many or too few that gets me in trouble.

Lessee now, this piece is 9 thousand millionths too small. Darn!


Get out your metal stretcher, John.

------
We're born hungry, wet, 'n naked, and it gets worse from there.

Naw! Phone the client an ask to borrow the measuring tool that they
were going to use to check the tollerances they spec'd. When they say
they don't have one... Home free! :-)

Cheers
Trevor Jones

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 16:12:49 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Trevor
Jones quickly quoth:

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 10:05:12 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, John
Husvar quickly quoth:


I have no problem at all machining to millionths: It's the ending up
with so many too many or too few that gets me in trouble.

Lessee now, this piece is 9 thousand millionths too small. Darn!


Get out your metal stretcher, John.


Naw! Phone the client an ask to borrow the measuring tool that they
were going to use to check the tollerances they spec'd. When they say
they don't have one... Home free! :-)

I was also going to mention to him to actually _wear_ his eyeglasses
the next time he's millin' ta millionths.

------
We're born hungry, wet, 'n naked, and it gets worse from there.

"Maxwell Lol" wrote in message
...
"Paul K. Dickman" writes:

Raising ISN'T spinning merely because of their names. Although similar
shapes may be made, the spinning process yeilds a product that is
distinctive, and cannot be exactly duplicated without a machine.

Horse hockey.

Spinning's advantage is that it is less labor intensive, readily uses
thinner materials, forces circular symmetry, and ,with the use of forms,
takes the skill needed for duplication out of the operator's hands.

I'll ask a neubie question (as I have a spun bowl that chimes like a
bell) What about sound? Is one technique better that the other?

Harder metals distort sound more and can produce more harmonics.
http://lawsonhorns.com/materials.htm

Both spinning and raising will harden most metals. Heating them above a
certain temperature (varies with the metal) anneals them, returning them to
a soft condition. From the article above you can see that the effects on
sound are pretty complex.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 12:40:58 -0400, Maxwell Lol wrote:
Rich Grise writes:
[someone else wrote]
if one would add submicron parts and things made with EDM machines... These
are impossible to make by hand. One example part is made near me. A computer
hard disk is a bit like the old phonograph player. The arm and pickup for
the disks is called a suspension assembly. A thousand men in a thousand
years couldn't make one of these by hand.

The ones (flying head arms) I've seen could have been,

... but gluing on the magnetic media by hand on to the platter is a real bitch....

What glue? You paint it on. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich