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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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A question for the group
Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be
done by hand. Is this statement true oe false? |
#2
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A question for the group
"MikeMandaville" wrote in message ups.com... Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be done by hand. Is this statement true oe false? Is practicality to be considered a factor? |
#3
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A question for the group
MikeMandaville wrote:
Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be done by hand. Is this statement true oe false? It can be, but not as well, and generally not as quick. |
#4
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A question for the group
MikeMandaville fired this volley in
ups.com: Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be done by hand. Is this statement true oe false? I think it would be difficult if not impossible to do deep-drawn horn forming by hand, except on the thinnest, softest metals. One could use hand power to pump a hydraulic horn die, but that's cheating, no? One cannot do spinning without a machine. So... false. LLoyd |
#5
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A question for the group
MikeMandaville wrote:
Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be done by hand. Is this statement true oe false? False. But handwork did get us into the machine age. Wes |
#6
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A question for the group
Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be done by hand. Is this statement true oe false? One could argue that anything done by mills, drills,lathes, and grinders could all be done by hand. Albeit at an extreme loss in productivity and accuracy. if one would add submicron parts and things made with EDM machines... These are impossible to make by hand. One example part is made near me. A computer hard disk is a bit like the old phonograph player. The arm and pickup for the disks is called a suspension assembly. A thousand men in a thousand years couldn't make one of these by hand. Karl |
#7
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A question for the group
"MikeMandaville" wrote in message ups.com... Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be done by hand. Is this statement true oe false? False. Best Regards Tom. |
#8
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A question for the group
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70... One cannot do spinning without a machine. LLoyd Sure you can. But then it isn't called spinning, it is called raising and it has been done for a thousand years. There is no reason why a reasonably skilled technician can't make seamless tubing from a sheet of metal with just a hammer and stake. Somewhere in my library, I have a picture of a copper 6-way tee joint raised from a single sheet. August Tiesselinck made back during the first world war. Paul K. Dickman |
#9
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A question for the group
"Paul K. Dickman" fired this volley in
: "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70... One cannot do spinning without a machine. LLoyd Sure you can. But then it isn't called spinning, it is called raising and it has been done for a thousand years. Raising ISN'T spinning merely because of their names. Although similar shapes may be made, the spinning process yeilds a product that is distinctive, and cannot be exactly duplicated without a machine. (I know about the colonial silversmiths, and the degree to which raising was, um.... RAISED!) LLoyd |
#10
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A question for the group
On Aug 23, 8:03 am, MikeMandaville wrote:
Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be done by hand. Is this statement true oe false? I say no. Manual accuracy depends on comparing the work to a reference and removing high spots. You can make extremely straight and flat reference surfaces by hand but not cylinders or screw threads. Holtzapffel book 2 (?) is a good reference for the many attempts to generate an accurate master screw thread by hand. jw |
#11
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A question for the group
MikeMandaville wrote:
Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be done by hand. Is this statement true oe false? Cutting a usable thread (particularly an inside thread) without tap or die would be virtually impossible without a thread-cutting lathe. |
#12
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A question for the group
Robert Swinney wrote:
A new twist on the old, worn-out "chicken and egg" question. IMO, the original question would have been more appros to this group had it said "machining operation" rather than "metalworking operation". Good point. It was never clarified whether "done by hand" might include turning a lathe spindle with your hand... Bob Swinney "Jim Stewart" wrote in message .. . MikeMandaville wrote: Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be done by hand. Is this statement true oe false? Cutting a usable thread (particularly an inside thread) without tap or die would be virtually impossible without a thread-cutting lathe. |
#13
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A question for the group
Jim Stewart fired this volley in
: Robert Swinney wrote: A new twist on the old, worn-out "chicken and egg" question. IMO, the original question would have been more appros to this group had it said "machining operation" rather than "metalworking operation". Good point. It was never clarified whether "done by hand" might include turning a lathe spindle with your hand... Nah.... a lathe, powered by electricity or mule is still a machine. LLoyd |
#14
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A question for the group
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70... "Paul K. Dickman" fired this volley in : "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message . 3.70... One cannot do spinning without a machine. LLoyd Sure you can. But then it isn't called spinning, it is called raising and it has been done for a thousand years. Raising ISN'T spinning merely because of their names. Although similar shapes may be made, the spinning process yeilds a product that is distinctive, and cannot be exactly duplicated without a machine. (I know about the colonial silversmiths, and the degree to which raising was, um.... RAISED!) LLoyd Horse hockey. Spinning is a production form of raising. The process by which the metal is simultaneously shrunk in one direction while stretched in another is precisely the same. Only the tools are different. Spinning's advantage is that it is less labor intensive, readily uses thinner materials, forces circular symmetry, and ,with the use of forms, takes the skill needed for duplication out of the operator's hands. Take a look at : http://new.photos.yahoo.com/pkdickma...803850205849/0 And tell me which parts have been spun and which parts have been hammer raised. (I'll give you a hint. It started as an experiment in spinning mokume gane. But rapid workhardening and my own lack of skill led to delamination of the alloys in one piece, and I chose to hammer form it instead.) Hammer raising's prime advantage is that circular symmetry is nor required. The reason you don't see a lot of raisings that look like spinnings is the same reason that you don't see a lot of castings that look like weldments. Why spend all that time making something that looks like something you could have made in 1/4 of an hour. The colonial smiths did beautiful work even though they were hobbled by a lack of support industries in their day,but they were ham-fisted compared to the men swung a hammer during the industrial revolution. http://new.photos.yahoo.com/pkdickma...804441897228/1 The 6-way is seamless. I am pretty sure the elbow joint has seams in all the tubes. Paul K. Dickman |
#15
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A question for the group
How do you define hand-made? Are you allowed to use hand made tools in the
completion of your project? If so, then everything in the world traces back to the days when there were no machines, and the first tool was probably a sharp rock or piece of bone. It's impossible to draw a line between a sharp rock and the most sophisticated computer-controlled mill or photo-etching machine. |
#16
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A question for the group
Hello again, fellows. I have found all of your answers to be thought-
provoking. What stirred me to ask the original question is that is that for years I have been hearing about soldering, brazing, and welding techniques being used to build up engines, but until I discovered Roy Shepherd, I didn't have a good example to follow: http://www.royuk.co.uk/steam_engines.htm I sent Roy an email, and he says that he has learned that plumbing solder, and even electrical solder is okay for these engines. Considering the easy availability of these soft solders, I have decided to use them myself for the same purpose, though I do expect to get to the point where I will need to move to a hard solder instead. I will have to make a longer drive to get some silver solder, but I will be able to purchase that locally also. Considering the cost of solver, though, I think that in the long run, I will be better off using a hard solder with no silver content. Does anyone have any recommendations? Mike Mandaville Austin, Texas |
#17
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A question for the group
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:08:06 -0500, Karl Townsend wrote:
Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be done by hand. Is this statement true oe false? One could argue that anything done by mills, drills,lathes, and grinders could all be done by hand. Albeit at an extreme loss in productivity and accuracy. if one would add submicron parts and things made with EDM machines... These are impossible to make by hand. One example part is made near me. A computer hard disk is a bit like the old phonograph player. The arm and pickup for the disks is called a suspension assembly. A thousand men in a thousand years couldn't make one of these by hand. The ones (flying head arms) I've seen could have been, if you're allowed to use a microscope, and don't have to manufacture the wire. Can you buy spring steel in a sheet? (I mean, of course you can, but for the purposes of this test? ;-) ) Thanks, Rich |
#18
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A question for the group
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 17:48:30 +0000, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Jim Stewart fired this volley in Robert Swinney wrote: A new twist on the old, worn-out "chicken and egg" question. IMO, the original question would have been more appros to this group had it said "machining operation" rather than "metalworking operation". Good point. It was never clarified whether "done by hand" might include turning a lathe spindle with your hand... Nah.... a lathe, powered by electricity or mule is still a machine. Yabbut, what if you unplug it, put the mule out to pasture, and turn it physically with your own hand? Does that count? ;-) Thanks, Rich |
#19
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A question for the group
clearly false - here are examples:
creating aluminum from bauxite nanomachining sputter coating and vacuum forming any PM technology anything with tolerances in the millionth of an inch I'm sure there are others, but the list above will do "MikeMandaville" wrote in message ups.com... Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be done by hand. Is this statement true oe false? -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
#20
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A question for the group
On Aug 23, 8:08 pm, Rich Grise wrote:
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 17:48:30 +0000, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote: Jim Stewart fired this volley in Robert Swinney wrote: A new twist on the old, worn-out "chicken and egg" question. IMO, the original question would have been more appros to this group had it said "machining operation" rather than "metalworking operation". Good point. It was never clarified whether "done by hand" might include turning a lathe spindle with your hand... Nah.... a lathe, powered by electricity or mule is still a machine. Yabbut, what if you unplug it, put the mule out to pasture, and turn it physically with your own hand? Does that count? ;-) Thanks, Rich I think the distinction falls between a gunsmith drawfiling a barrel round and a clockmaker with a foot-powered lathe making pivot shafts with a hand-held graver. Both are expert craftsmen and the gunsmith could possibly fit two surfaces to micron accuracy by smoking them, but I think only the clockmaker could generate a true cylinder. But today, why bother? Use any excuse you can find to justify buying a lathe. jw |
#21
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A question for the group
"Paul K. Dickman" fired this volley in
: http://new.photos.yahoo.com/pkdickma.../5764607624051 95515/photo/294928804441897228/1 That six-way is truly a work of art. LLoyd |
#22
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A question for the group
"MikeMandaville" wrote in message
ups.com... Any metalworking operation which can be done by machine can also be done by hand. Is this statement true oe false? False. |
#23
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A question for the group
On Aug 23, 8:55?pm, "William Noble" wrote:
clearly false - here are examples: ...anything with tolerances in the millionth of an inch I'm sure there are others, but the list above will do Thank you, William. In the future, if I ever need to machine something in my home shop to within one one-millionth of an inch, I will remember that I will not be able to do the job by hand. Let's see now, where did I put that manual boring bar! ;-) Mike Mandaville Austin, Texas |
#24
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A question for the group
In article . com,
MikeMandaville wrote: On Aug 23, 8:55?pm, "William Noble" wrote: clearly false - here are examples: ...anything with tolerances in the millionth of an inch I'm sure there are others, but the list above will do Thank you, William. In the future, if I ever need to machine something in my home shop to within one one-millionth of an inch, I will remember that I will not be able to do the job by hand. Let's see now, where did I put that manual boring bar! ;-) Mike Mandaville Austin, Texas I have no problem at all machining to millionths: It's the ending up with so many too many or too few that gets me in trouble. Lessee now, this piece is 9 thousand millionths too small. Darn! |
#25
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A question for the group
On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 10:05:12 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, John
Husvar quickly quoth: I have no problem at all machining to millionths: It's the ending up with so many too many or too few that gets me in trouble. Lessee now, this piece is 9 thousand millionths too small. Darn! Get out your metal stretcher, John. ------ We're born hungry, wet, 'n naked, and it gets worse from there. |
#26
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A question for the group
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 10:05:12 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, John Husvar quickly quoth: I have no problem at all machining to millionths: It's the ending up with so many too many or too few that gets me in trouble. Lessee now, this piece is 9 thousand millionths too small. Darn! Get out your metal stretcher, John. ------ We're born hungry, wet, 'n naked, and it gets worse from there. Naw! Phone the client an ask to borrow the measuring tool that they were going to use to check the tollerances they spec'd. When they say they don't have one... Home free! :-) Cheers Trevor Jones |
#27
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A question for the group
On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 16:12:49 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Trevor
Jones quickly quoth: Larry Jaques wrote: On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 10:05:12 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, John Husvar quickly quoth: I have no problem at all machining to millionths: It's the ending up with so many too many or too few that gets me in trouble. Lessee now, this piece is 9 thousand millionths too small. Darn! Get out your metal stretcher, John. Naw! Phone the client an ask to borrow the measuring tool that they were going to use to check the tollerances they spec'd. When they say they don't have one... Home free! :-) I was also going to mention to him to actually _wear_ his eyeglasses the next time he's millin' ta millionths. ------ We're born hungry, wet, 'n naked, and it gets worse from there. |
#28
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A question for the group
"Maxwell Lol" wrote in message ... "Paul K. Dickman" writes: Raising ISN'T spinning merely because of their names. Although similar shapes may be made, the spinning process yeilds a product that is distinctive, and cannot be exactly duplicated without a machine. Horse hockey. Spinning's advantage is that it is less labor intensive, readily uses thinner materials, forces circular symmetry, and ,with the use of forms, takes the skill needed for duplication out of the operator's hands. I'll ask a neubie question (as I have a spun bowl that chimes like a bell) What about sound? Is one technique better that the other? Harder metals distort sound more and can produce more harmonics. http://lawsonhorns.com/materials.htm Both spinning and raising will harden most metals. Heating them above a certain temperature (varies with the metal) anneals them, returning them to a soft condition. From the article above you can see that the effects on sound are pretty complex. -- Ed Huntress |
#29
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A question for the group
On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 12:40:58 -0400, Maxwell Lol wrote:
Rich Grise writes: [someone else wrote] if one would add submicron parts and things made with EDM machines... These are impossible to make by hand. One example part is made near me. A computer hard disk is a bit like the old phonograph player. The arm and pickup for the disks is called a suspension assembly. A thousand men in a thousand years couldn't make one of these by hand. The ones (flying head arms) I've seen could have been, ... but gluing on the magnetic media by hand on to the platter is a real bitch.... What glue? You paint it on. ;-) Cheers! Rich |
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