I burned the bearings out on my drive turbine for the traveling irrigator.
To get by, I removed the turbine completely and I'm pulling hose in with the
tractor PTO.

I LEARNED SOMETHING! The turbine takes its power out of the water pressure.
Its reducing pressure to the sprinkler from 115 PSI to 100 PSI. And the gun
works WAY better at the higher pressure.

The power from the turbine is dinky. You twist it by hand to start it when
it stalls. I'm going to guess 10 ft lbs. It runs at maybe 500 RPM. There's
then a gear train that reduces the speed by maybe 500:1 to give high torque
to the bull gear driving the reel. This assembly pulls in a 3" water hose at
50 feet per hour.

I'm wondering if a DC motor and deep cycle batteries would do this job. This
thing needs to be super reliable, it runs more than 120 hours a week. Am I
within the power range of a DC motor setup? I'd need at least 8 run hours
between recharging. What would be the best unit in terms of efficiency?

FWIW, I could lay a 110 volt wire in the fence line where the traveler hooks
up. Line loss would be terrible because it would be over 1/4 mile long. But
maybe it could run a 12 volt charger. I couldn't get to all the spots this
way.

I won't be trying this in the middle of this drought. I'd build it this
winter.

Karl

On Jul 23, 7:52 am, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:
I burned the bearings out on my drive turbine for the traveling irrigator.
To get by, I removed the turbine completely and I'm pulling hose in with the
tractor PTO.

I LEARNED SOMETHING! The turbine takes its power out of the water pressure.
Its reducing pressure to the sprinkler from 115 PSI to 100 PSI. And the gun
works WAY better at the higher pressure.

The power from the turbine is dinky. You twist it by hand to start it when
it stalls. I'm going to guess 10 ft lbs. It runs at maybe 500 RPM. There's
then a gear train that reduces the speed by maybe 500:1 to give high torque
to the bull gear driving the reel. This assembly pulls in a 3" water hose at
50 feet per hour.

I'm wondering if a DC motor and deep cycle batteries would do this job. This
thing needs to be super reliable, it runs more than 120 hours a week. Am I
within the power range of a DC motor setup? I'd need at least 8 run hours
between recharging. What would be the best unit in terms of efficiency?

FWIW, I could lay a 110 volt wire in the fence line where the traveler hooks
up. Line loss would be terrible because it would be over 1/4 mile long. But
maybe it could run a 12 volt charger. I couldn't get to all the spots this
way.

I won't be trying this in the middle of this drought. I'd build it this
winter.

Karl

Hi, Karl.
I'm guessing this is a good fit for a 24 volt motor and a solar
charging set up. A guy in Northern CA makes and sells something
similar. He has us build a circuit board for us. I will try to get the
name, etc. for you when my GM gets back from a delivery run to another
customer.

Paul in Redmond, OR

On Jul 23, 7:52 am, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:
I burned the bearings out on my drive turbine for the traveling irrigator.
To get by, I removed the turbine completely and I'm pulling hose in with the
tractor PTO.

I LEARNED SOMETHING! The turbine takes its power out of the water pressure.
Its reducing pressure to the sprinkler from 115 PSI to 100 PSI. And the gun
works WAY better at the higher pressure.

The power from the turbine is dinky. You twist it by hand to start it when
it stalls. I'm going to guess 10 ft lbs. It runs at maybe 500 RPM. There's
then a gear train that reduces the speed by maybe 500:1 to give high torque
to the bull gear driving the reel. This assembly pulls in a 3" water hose at
50 feet per hour.

I'm wondering if a DC motor and deep cycle batteries would do this job. This
thing needs to be super reliable, it runs more than 120 hours a week. Am I
within the power range of a DC motor setup? I'd need at least 8 run hours
between recharging. What would be the best unit in terms of efficiency?

FWIW, I could lay a 110 volt wire in the fence line where the traveler hooks
up. Line loss would be terrible because it would be over 1/4 mile long. But
maybe it could run a 12 volt charger. I couldn't get to all the spots this
way.

I won't be trying this in the middle of this drought. I'd build it this
winter.

Karl

Ok, here is the company:

Motive Engineering
(530) 468-5374

They are in Ft. Jones, Ca.

See if they have anything to offer for your irrigation problem.

Paul

On Jul 23, 7:52 am, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:
I burned the bearings out on my drive turbine for the traveling irrigator.
To get by, I removed the turbine completely and I'm pulling hose in with the
tractor PTO.

I LEARNED SOMETHING! The turbine takes its power out of the water pressure.
Its reducing pressure to the sprinkler from 115 PSI to 100 PSI. And the gun
works WAY better at the higher pressure.

The power from the turbine is dinky. You twist it by hand to start it when
it stalls. I'm going to guess 10 ft lbs. It runs at maybe 500 RPM. There's
then a gear train that reduces the speed by maybe 500:1 to give high torque
to the bull gear driving the reel. This assembly pulls in a 3" water hose at
50 feet per hour.

I'm wondering if a DC motor and deep cycle batteries would do this job. This
thing needs to be super reliable, it runs more than 120 hours a week. Am I
within the power range of a DC motor setup? I'd need at least 8 run hours
between recharging. What would be the best unit in terms of efficiency?

FWIW, I could lay a 110 volt wire in the fence line where the traveler hooks
up. Line loss would be terrible because it would be over 1/4 mile long. But
maybe it could run a 12 volt charger. I couldn't get to all the spots this
way.

I won't be trying this in the middle of this drought. I'd build it this
winter.

Karl

Deep cycle batteries would probably work. Ideally you'd have a bank
of batteries, and you'd either draw from all simultaneously, or have
circuitry to monitor the voltages and switch from an old battery to a
fresh one as the voltage drops. Either experimental testing (which
i'm inclined to) or an electrical engineer would tell you which is the
most economical/reliable solution. Then you could charge the
batteries when not running. In terms of gear motors, take a look at
Surplus Center for good DC gearmotors (www.surpluscenter.com). My
inclination would be this: a 500:1 reduction, particularly when we're
talking farm equipment and not precision electronics or something,
isn't going to be all that efficient. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would
tend to buy an off the shelf gearmotor (which is a motor already
fitted to a nice reduction) to get the same rpm and power, and then
bypass the existing gear train all the way to the bull gear. My guess
is that you could switch from 10 ft-lbs to 50 or 100 ftlbs and need
only a small reduction, maybe 10:1 or so. I'd bet the power
consumption would go way down.
ww88

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
link.net...
I LEARNED SOMETHING! The turbine takes its power out of the water
pressure. Its reducing pressure to the sprinkler from 115 PSI to 100 PSI.
And the gun works WAY better at the higher pressure.

The power from the turbine is dinky. You twist it by hand to start it when
it stalls. I'm going to guess 10 ft lbs. It runs at maybe 500 RPM. There's
then a gear train that reduces the speed by maybe 500:1 to give high
torque to the bull gear driving the reel. This assembly pulls in a 3"
water hose at 50 feet per hour.

I don't know this for certain, but would be willing to wager that the
pressure loss is due more to lost flow through the turbine nozzle than to
lost "pressure". More'n likely, the oriface isn't large enough to swamp the
flow requirements of your spray nozzle. All this, IF it's a "full flow"
system, with the turbine in series with the sprinkler nozzle.

If that's all the case, then you might consider putting it in parallel, and
running a small "secondary" spray nozzle to exhaust the portion of water the
turbine uses.

I've always been on a well (residential), and have had nothing but bad luck
with water-motor drives at the pitifully low cut-in pressure on most well
pumps. They tend to stall when the water pressure starts to get low, and
don't start to spin again (if ever) until the pressure peaks again.

LLoyd

Karl Townsend wrote:
... The turbine takes its power out of the water pressure.
Its reducing pressure to the sprinkler from 115 PSI to 100 PSI. And the gun
works WAY better at the higher pressure.
...

Could you just increase the supply pressure, so the gun still gets 115
psi after the turbine?

Bob

Could you just increase the supply pressure, so the gun still gets 115 psi
after the turbine?

Sure, I'd have to replace all the irrigation lines, rated at 100 PSI (I'm
running 120). Then install a new well pump and with 5 more hp. for the same
gpm. Should only cost about $20K.

Karl

fitted to a nice reduction) to get the same rpm and power, and then
bypass the existing gear train all the way to the bull gear. My guess
is that you could switch from 10 ft-lbs to 50 or 100 ftlbs and need
only a small reduction, maybe 10:1 or so. I'd bet the power
consumption would go way down.
ww88

This makes sence. I'm going to measure the torque here with a torque wrench.
It is possible, but hard, to reel in the hose here with a hand crank. Its in
the area of 80 to 100 ft lbs.

I'm willing to experiment, but I want to start with a knowledgeable best
estimate for motor and power supply.

karl

Ok, here is the company:

Motive Engineering
(530) 468-5374

Thanks, I'll give them a call.

Karl

Karl Townsend wrote:

I burned the bearings out on my drive turbine for the traveling irrigator.
To get by, I removed the turbine completely and I'm pulling hose in with the
tractor PTO.

I LEARNED SOMETHING! The turbine takes its power out of the water pressure.
Its reducing pressure to the sprinkler from 115 PSI to 100 PSI. And the gun
works WAY better at the higher pressure.

The power from the turbine is dinky. You twist it by hand to start it when
it stalls. I'm going to guess 10 ft lbs. It runs at maybe 500 RPM. There's
then a gear train that reduces the speed by maybe 500:1 to give high torque
to the bull gear driving the reel. This assembly pulls in a 3" water hose at
50 feet per hour.

I'm wondering if a DC motor and deep cycle batteries would do this job. This
thing needs to be super reliable, it runs more than 120 hours a week. Am I
within the power range of a DC motor setup? I'd need at least 8 run hours
between recharging. What would be the best unit in terms of efficiency?

FWIW, I could lay a 110 volt wire in the fence line where the traveler hooks
up. Line loss would be terrible because it would be over 1/4 mile long. But
maybe it could run a 12 volt charger. I couldn't get to all the spots this
way.

I won't be trying this in the middle of this drought. I'd build it this
winter.

Karl



I would suspect that the nozzle of your gun is worn and because of that
requires the higher water pressure to work properly. The same thing
happens with my pressure washer when the nozzle is worn.

John

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:52:51 GMT, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

I burned the bearings out on my drive turbine for the traveling irrigator.
To get by, I removed the turbine completely and I'm pulling hose in with the
tractor PTO.

I LEARNED SOMETHING! The turbine takes its power out of the water pressure.
Its reducing pressure to the sprinkler from 115 PSI to 100 PSI. And the gun
works WAY better at the higher pressure.

The power from the turbine is dinky. You twist it by hand to start it when
it stalls. I'm going to guess 10 ft lbs. It runs at maybe 500 RPM. There's
then a gear train that reduces the speed by maybe 500:1 to give high torque
to the bull gear driving the reel. This assembly pulls in a 3" water hose at
50 feet per hour.

I'm wondering if a DC motor and deep cycle batteries would do this job. This
thing needs to be super reliable, it runs more than 120 hours a week. Am I
within the power range of a DC motor setup? I'd need at least 8 run hours
between recharging. What would be the best unit in terms of efficiency?

FWIW, I could lay a 110 volt wire in the fence line where the traveler hooks
up. Line loss would be terrible because it would be over 1/4 mile long. But
maybe it could run a 12 volt charger. I couldn't get to all the spots this
way.

I won't be trying this in the middle of this drought. I'd build it this
winter.

Karl

10 ft-lbf at 500 RPM is about 709 watts or 0.952 HP. Figure about
50% efficiency as a SWAG for motor + gears, so maybe 1500 watts of
electricity. That's 125 amps at 12 volts or 62.5 amps at 24 volts.
That's a lot for continuous drain from reasonably-sized deep-cycle
batteries, but it is definitely within reach of reliable, long-lived
DC motors. Some trolling motors can do this and they last for years.
They're intrinsically water-cooled, being immersed while in service.
I'd have to check, but I think their speed (with no gears) is in the
right ballpark too.

You sure about the 10 lbf-ft from the turbine? That seems like a lot
but I have no experience with irrigation systems.

I've always been on a well (residential), and have had nothing but bad
luck with water-motor drives at the pitifully low cut-in pressure on most
well pumps. They tend to stall when the water pressure starts to get low,
and don't start to spin again (if ever) until the pressure peaks again.

You hit the nail on the head here. I must go out a minimum of 1/hour 24
hours a day to check the unit. Problem 1 is turbine stalling. I'm running it
as slow as it will go to put down more water - below its rated range. A
system that works well would let me sleep at night.

Karl

You sure about the 10 lbf-ft from the turbine? That seems like a lot
but I have no experience with irrigation systems.

Pure guess, and on the high side. I plan on measuring force to pull the hose
at the PTO/hand crank shaft. And the exact gear reduction the system has
today. Makes sense to not re-use the existing gear reduction setup. Then I
could look for a DC gear motor. This should be way more efficient.

The traveler is close to the reel today. I'll measure tomorrow when a full
length of hose is out. The place I'll set it out is also an uphill lie, so I
can get max. force. I'll just have a static torque wench number, moving
force will be lower.

Karl

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:52:51 GMT, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

I burned the bearings out on my drive turbine for the traveling irrigator.
To get by, I removed the turbine completely and I'm pulling hose in with the
tractor PTO.

I LEARNED SOMETHING! The turbine takes its power out of the water pressure.
Its reducing pressure to the sprinkler from 115 PSI to 100 PSI. And the gun
works WAY better at the higher pressure.

The power from the turbine is dinky. You twist it by hand to start it when
it stalls. I'm going to guess 10 ft lbs. It runs at maybe 500 RPM. There's
then a gear train that reduces the speed by maybe 500:1 to give high torque
to the bull gear driving the reel. This assembly pulls in a 3" water hose at
50 feet per hour.

I'm wondering if a DC motor and deep cycle batteries would do this job. This
thing needs to be super reliable, it runs more than 120 hours a week. Am I
within the power range of a DC motor setup? I'd need at least 8 run hours
between recharging. What would be the best unit in terms of efficiency?

FWIW, I could lay a 110 volt wire in the fence line where the traveler hooks
up. Line loss would be terrible because it would be over 1/4 mile long. But
maybe it could run a 12 volt charger. I couldn't get to all the spots this
way.

I won't be trying this in the middle of this drought. I'd build it this
winter.

Karl

What is your flow rate in gallons per minute, Karl?

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:52:49 GMT, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:


You sure about the 10 lbf-ft from the turbine? That seems like a lot
but I have no experience with irrigation systems.

Pure guess, and on the high side. I plan on measuring force to pull the hose
at the PTO/hand crank shaft. And the exact gear reduction the system has
today. Makes sense to not re-use the existing gear reduction setup. Then I
could look for a DC gear motor. This should be way more efficient.

The traveler is close to the reel today. I'll measure tomorrow when a full
length of hose is out. The place I'll set it out is also an uphill lie, so I
can get max. force. I'll just have a static torque wench number, moving
force will be lower.

Hi Karl,

How about a few pictures of your current rig while you're
taking measurements. You know how everyone likes to look,
comment, comment, argue after a few pictures

Seriously I think you will get some better ideas to kick
around if we can see the actual device/problem...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:41:04 GMT, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

I must go out a minimum of 1/hour 24
hours a day to check the unit. Problem 1 is turbine stalling. I'm running it
as slow as it will go to put down more water - below its rated range. A
system that works well would let me sleep at night.

Have you considered switching to pod irrigation?
http://www.k-linena.com/new_page_2.htm

Wayne

Have you considered switching to pod irrigation?
http://www.k-linena.com/new_page_2.htm

That would have trouble getting over a ten foot apple tree.

Karl

What is your flow rate in gallons per minute, Karl?

150 GPM at 120 PSI - well head. Only losing 5 PSI to line riser. That dang
turbine was/is taking 15 PSI. These numbers go up/down 10 psi depending on
elevation, takes 1 psi for every two feet.

I have all the part numbers lined up for this pump failing. Its getting worn
out. The next pump will do 200 GPM at 120 PSI. If you'd care to donate $9K
to the apple farmer's relief fund, I'll install it next week.

Karl

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:52:49 GMT, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:


You sure about the 10 lbf-ft from the turbine? That seems like a lot
but I have no experience with irrigation systems.

Pure guess, and on the high side. I plan on measuring force to pull the hose
at the PTO/hand crank shaft. And the exact gear reduction the system has
today. Makes sense to not re-use the existing gear reduction setup. Then I
could look for a DC gear motor. This should be way more efficient.

Why do you think so? One way or another, the motor speed must be
matched to the load speed regardless of who sold the gears. Some
gear trains are more efficient than others, though. For high
reductions, worm gears tend to be more efficient than trains of spur
gears because it takes fewer gears to achieve the same ratio.

I know that Lorenz Mfg. in Benson uses some Boston worm gear drives,
don't know if they'd sell ya one or not. They make electric winches
among other things. Also farm machinery.

The traveler is close to the reel today. I'll measure tomorrow when a full
length of hose is out. The place I'll set it out is also an uphill lie, so I
can get max. force. I'll just have a static torque wench number, moving
force will be lower.

Might be helpful to know the ratio (if any) between PTO/handcrank and
hose reel, or (perhaps better) what rev rate of PTO/crank results in
hose retreival of 50 ft/hr.

How about a few pictures of your current rig while you're
taking measurements. You know how everyone likes to look,
comment, comment, argue after a few pictures

I can do one better. Its an Ag-rain T23A. Here's the parts manual:
http://www.kifco.com/manuals/P21_320/all.html

Backup to the main web page for an overall view.

Karl

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
link.net...
I burned the bearings out on my drive turbine for the traveling irrigator.
To get by, I removed the turbine completely and I'm pulling hose in with
the tractor PTO.

I LEARNED SOMETHING! The turbine takes its power out of the water
pressure. Its reducing pressure to the sprinkler from 115 PSI to 100 PSI.
And the gun works WAY better at the higher pressure.

The power from the turbine is dinky. You twist it by hand to start it when
it stalls. I'm going to guess 10 ft lbs. It runs at maybe 500 RPM. There's
then a gear train that reduces the speed by maybe 500:1 to give high
torque to the bull gear driving the reel. This assembly pulls in a 3"
water hose at 50 feet per hour.

I'm wondering if a DC motor and deep cycle batteries would do this job.
This thing needs to be super reliable, it runs more than 120 hours a week.
Am I within the power range of a DC motor setup? I'd need at least 8 run
hours between recharging. What would be the best unit in terms of
efficiency?



I doubt it. It still takes a lot of power to pull in the hose- have you ever
cranked one by hand? I have.We sell lots of travelers and I've never heard
of a turbine bearing failure (We used to sell Kifco and switched to Micro
Rain a year ago).
FWIW- your 15 psi pressure drop is caused not only by the turbine, but also
the drag in the rest of the water circuit ( there is a lot of loss in all
that hose) and attempting to go above a water velocity of about 5 fps by
boosting pressure ( you can't boost flow) only makes things worse by
introducing turbulence in the system.

Why not rebuild the turbine and be done with it? It'll be super reliable and
run more than 120 hours a week no worries.

-Carl
--
The future isn't what it used to be.

I doubt it. It still takes a lot of power to pull in the hose- have you
ever
cranked one by hand? I have.We sell lots of travelers and I've never
heard of a turbine bearing failure (We used to sell Kifco and switched to
Micro Rain a year ago).

The turbine was stalling easily and I felt a tight spots like pits in the
bearings. Ordered a pile of repair parts and took it apart. THEN I found out
only one of the two bearings was in the replacement part pile. Bad bearing
seal has let water in and rusted it.

Couldn't leave machine down, so I put it back in service without the
turbine.



FWIW- your 15 psi pressure drop is caused not only by the turbine, but
also the drag in the rest of the water circuit ( there is a lot of loss in
all that hose) and attempting to go above a water velocity of about 5 fps
by boosting pressure ( you can't boost flow) only makes things worse by
introducing turbulence in the system.

Kifco recommends an inlet pressure of 127 PSI for my unit. I only get 100
with turbine in place retrieving hose (108 disengaged). Remove turbine and I
get 115. Unit runs WAY better. AMAZING. I can't go higher pressure on my
plastic underground supply lines. Thus, my query on another way to retrieve
hose.

Karl (spells his name right) Townsend

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
link.net...

Kifco recommends an inlet pressure of 127 PSI for my unit. I only get 100
with turbine in place retrieving hose (108 disengaged). Remove turbine and
I get 115. Unit runs WAY better. AMAZING. I can't go higher pressure on my
plastic underground supply lines. Thus, my query on another way to
retrieve hose.

Sounds like you need a booster pump- you're way low on pressure. Most of the
water reels we sell are spec'd with a booster that mounts on the machine and
has automatic controls to shut it off at the end of a run or if the water
supply runs dry. Micro Rain has a stand alone pump available, don't know
about Kifco. Since you would be boosting pressure after the supply lines,
there is no risk of damaging them.

Karl (spells his name right) Townsend

No he doesn't.

-Carl
--
The future isn't what it used to be.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:28:46 GMT, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:


What is your flow rate in gallons per minute, Karl?

150 GPM at 120 PSI - well head. Only losing 5 PSI to line riser. That dang
turbine was/is taking 15 PSI. These numbers go up/down 10 psi depending on
elevation, takes 1 psi for every two feet.

I have all the part numbers lined up for this pump failing. Its getting worn
out. The next pump will do 200 GPM at 120 PSI. If you'd care to donate $9K
to the apple farmer's relief fund, I'll install it next week.

Karl


I probably won't be donating to a relief fund for apple farmers who
have more and better machine tools than I do and spend their winters
fishin' in Florida. Sorry 'bout that. G

I was curious about flow rate as it relates to power and pressure
drop. Your flow rate and pressure drop seem consistent with the
power it sounds like it takes to move the thing around. The 709
watts I calculated previously (based on your torque and speed data) is
consistent with 15 PSI drop and 108 GPM at 100% efficiency.

Oh, and don't forget the undertooled-engineer's relief fund. All
donations welcome.

Sounds like you need a booster pump- you're way low on pressure. Most of
the water reels we sell are spec'd with a booster that mounts on the
machine and has automatic controls to shut it off at the end of a run or
if the water supply runs dry. Micro Rain has a stand alone pump available,
don't know about Kifco. Since you would be boosting pressure after the
supply lines, there is no risk of damaging them.

Yea, I've been told this before. I'm sure it would work, but I HATE small
gas engines. You're just buying more problems. They are simply not made to
run 24x7. Now, its working very well to just move the traveler a bunch once
every five hours. Not as uniform, but I get a decent bit of sleep/work
between moves. If this turbine gives more trouble after I get the parts
re-installed, its coming off for good. I am sick of checking it once an hour
to make sure it hasn't stalled again.

Karl

"Karl Townsend" wrote in
link.net:

Karl,
You may wish to investigate a ring motor for your application. This could
reduce your gear train to one step, possibly none depending on drive
wheel size.

Such as:

http://www.alxion.com/bin/e_moteur-kit-stk.html

The 800 series offers as low as 30 RPM and 610 Nm of torque in ambient
cooling application.

--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
link.net...

I am sick of checking it once an hour
to make sure it hasn't stalled again.

Karl

FWIW, Karl, it would be a simple electronic project to build a "stall alarm"
for the thing, so you don't waste sleep unless it actually stalls.

Basically: A re-triggerable timer (like a 555) with a timeout period longer
than the longest time between "spokes" on your windup reel (a spoke could be
any protruberance, magnet, trip lever, etc. that can close a "retrigger"
switch ... I'd use a magnetic switch, were I doing it).

IF the timer ever completely times out, it fires off an audible alarm or a
flashing light that says, "Come start me up!".

You could put a strobe light up on a pole, so it will be easier to see (or
detect) from a high place outside the orchard.

G Then, of course, you build a circuit in your house/bunkhouse that can
detect the specific pulse rate of your strobe, and signal you to wake up!
G

THEN, of course, you add a "restart motor" to the thing so if it stalls, it
automatically re-cranks the turbine to get things going again.

Then you never have to get up at night again! GBSEGG

(Ain't Rube Great?)

LLoyd

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:34:48 GMT, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

How about a few pictures of your current rig while you're
taking measurements. You know how everyone likes to look,
comment, comment, argue after a few pictures

I can do one better. Its an Ag-rain T23A. Here's the parts manual:
http://www.kifco.com/manuals/P21_320/all.html

Backup to the main web page for an overall view.

Hi Karl,

Thanks for the model/links.

I just started looking them over, but the brochure states
that the turbine will cause a 10 psi pressure drop. So your
15 psi mentioned doesn't sound all that out of line. See:

http://www.kifco.com/acrobatfiles/23...20brochure.pdf

It is under the "Engine Drive" heading near the top of the
second page.

According to the spec sheets it is suppose to work at
pressures as low as 77 psi (I found different specs/sheets
too). Do they make any changes to the unit for the lower
pressure? I looked over the parts list and I couldn't spot
anything different relating to this. If something could be
changed for lower pressure operation now would be the time
to do it. Dependability would be a worthy trade off I would
think...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:34:48 GMT, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:

How about a few pictures of your current rig while you're
taking measurements. You know how everyone likes to look,
comment, comment, argue after a few pictures

I can do one better. Its an Ag-rain T23A. Here's the parts manual:
http://www.kifco.com/manuals/P21_320/all.html

Backup to the main web page for an overall view.

Hi Karl,

From what you have said in other posts you must have the PTO
option installed on this rig.

How about gutting an old electric golf cart and coupling the
wheel drive to the PTO input spline. Then set up a
programmable timer to goose the old golf cart foot pedal
every so often to reel in the line. The golf cart parts are
pretty common and easy to come by. This could be uncoupled
pretty quickly if you hook into the PTO spline.

Just an idea...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
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"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
link.net...
Sounds like you need a booster pump- you're way low on pressure. Most of
the water reels we sell are spec'd with a booster that mounts on the
machine and has automatic controls to shut it off at the end of a run or
if the water supply runs dry. Micro Rain has a stand alone pump
available, don't know about Kifco. Since you would be boosting pressure
after the supply lines, there is no risk of damaging them.

Yea, I've been told this before. I'm sure it would work, but I HATE small
gas engines. You're just buying more problems. They are simply not made to
run 24x7.

The answer is: Honda.
We have yet to replace a Honda small engine and the only repair work has
been to one that was vandalized.

-Carl
--
The future isn't what it used to be.

I would agree Micro Rain has a better reel gun than Kifco.
I will say there are better ways to irrigate than with a reel gun. My
experience is you are loosing 50 to 65 percent of your water to
evaporation depending on temperature, humidity and wind.
If you are going to irrigate every year I would suggest underground
irrigation. Your efficiency will go way up. It will require less
water, less pressure, less horsepower,less money and less manpower.
Pumps will cost less and electricity costs will down and instead of
moving the reel gun you will just flip a switch or just put it on a
timer.
I have worked on thousands of acres of Pecans Orchards in Texas I
have seen what works and what does not.
I would bury pipe and keep emitters near the tree, anything above
ground is a target for squirrels, rats, mice or any other varmits,
farm equipment and stupid employees.
Most of the initial cost of this type of irrigation are labor and
markup. It is very labor intensive to install, BUT after the install
it is the least labor intensive. You can water the whole orchard at
one time instead of waiting for the reel gun to get there. Or zone it
depending on how much water you want to lay down at a time.
Just a suggestion from a Water Well Man.

Scott in Texas

wrote in message
ups.com...
I would agree Micro Rain has a better reel gun than Kifco.
I will say there are better ways to irrigate than with a reel gun. My
experience is you are loosing 50 to 65 percent of your water to
evaporation depending on temperature, humidity and wind.
If you are going to irrigate every year I would suggest underground
irrigation. Your efficiency will go way up. It will require less
water, less pressure, less horsepower,less money and less manpower.
Pumps will cost less and electricity costs will down and instead of
moving the reel gun you will just flip a switch or just put it on a
timer.
I have worked on thousands of acres of Pecans Orchards in Texas I
have seen what works and what does not.
I would bury pipe and keep emitters near the tree, anything above
ground is a target for squirrels, rats, mice or any other varmits,
farm equipment and stupid employees.
Most of the initial cost of this type of irrigation are labor and
markup. It is very labor intensive to install, BUT after the install
it is the least labor intensive. You can water the whole orchard at
one time instead of waiting for the reel gun to get there. Or zone it
depending on how much water you want to lay down at a time.
Just a suggestion from a Water Well Man.

Scott in Texas


I would agree with everything you say but temper that with Karl's northern
location. We've found that an improper end-of-season blowout can lead to all
sorts of expen$ive damage. South of the Smith & Wesson line, drip is the
only way to go, but north it's a toss up.

-Carl (not Karl)
--
The future isn't what it used to be.

According to the spec sheets it is suppose to work at
pressures as low as 77 psi (I found different specs/sheets
too). Do they make any changes to the unit for the lower
pressure? I looked over the parts list and I couldn't spot
anything different relating to this. If something could be
changed for lower pressure operation now would be the time
to do it. Dependability would be a worthy trade off I would
think...

The only way to lower the inlet pressure requirement is to use a small gun
and low flow. You need 70 psi at the gun, easy if you're not pushing a lot
of water. I'm pushing 150 GPM, just a bit over the rated capacity of the
unit. This gives a lot of pressure loss in the reel hose. To get 70 at the
gun, I need 110 at the inlet.

Karl

I would bury pipe and keep emitters near the tree, anything above
ground is a target for squirrels, rats, mice or any other varmits,
farm equipment and stupid employees.
Most of the initial cost of this type of irrigation are labor and
markup. It is very labor intensive to install, BUT after the install
it is the least labor intensive. You can water the whole orchard at
one time instead of waiting for the reel gun to get there. Or zone it
depending on how much water you want to lay down at a time.
Just a suggestion from a Water Well Man.

I tried drip for ten years. It was HORRIBLE. I have a very high iron
content. There's an iron bacteria that forms a soft flake that plugs
emitters. There was a bit over ten miles of pipe and 10,000 emitters.
Something was always broke/plugged.Went through all kinds of emitters,
filters, acid injectors, pipe styles. I was losing a lot of yeild potential
to these problems. I gave up and put in a large well and traveling gun. On
the whole, a much better way to go for my situation. It does suck in a year
where water is needed all summer. This is the second time, the last was
1988. I had drip then - it sucked more than this.

Karl

The answer is: Honda.
We have yet to replace a Honda small engine and the only repair work has
been to one that was vandalized.

They are certainly better, but not quite there yet. I know of a number of
people that ran these hard (on generators) after the 'canes in '05. Most
were dead in a month. Just what I heard from friends and relatives.

Karl

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:33:41 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Karl
Townsend" quickly quoth:

I tried drip for ten years. It was HORRIBLE. I have a very high iron
content. There's an iron bacteria that forms a soft flake that plugs
emitters. There was a bit over ten miles of pipe and 10,000 emitters.
Something was always broke/plugged.Went through all kinds of emitters,

Ditto the iron bacteria here in GP. I can run a fresh cup of water and
it turns from perfectly clear into rusty brown in about half an hour.
Strange.

I wondered why all of my emitters were plugging up and now you've
enlightened me. I only have 1/3 acre, so my number is about 100. I
moved to the flag style of emitters from Toro. They're self-cleaning.
Twist the top every month or two and they flush themselves. I do it
occasionally, every tenth check of the garden or so.

Hmm, iron bacteria. Is that on topic?

--
Love the moment, and energy of that moment will spread beyond all boundaries.
-- Corita Kent

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

Ditto the iron bacteria here in GP. I can run a fresh cup of water and
it turns from perfectly clear into rusty brown in about half an hour.
Strange.

Not iron bacteria. Clear Water (dissolved) Iron - a different problem.
There are a variety of water-softener-like systems to remove that -
small amounts can be removed with a normal water softener. Greater
amounts will plug one up. Large amounts can be removed by aerating (or
chlorinating, which also works for the bacteria, but in the case of CWI
is serving to oxidize) and settling/filtering.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

On Jul 24, 6:45 am, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:
I am sick of checking it once an hour
to make sure it hasn't stalled again.

Karl

Perhaps this is simply avoiding the problem rather than fixing it, but
maybe you could rig up a simple sensor and small motor that would
detect if the turbine has stalled and give it a "push" to get it going
again.

On Jul 23, 11:00 am, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:
This makes sence. I'm going to measure the torque here with a torque wrench.
It is possible, but hard, to reel in the hose here with a hand crank. Its in
the area of 80 to 100 ft lbs.

I'm willing to experiment, but I want to start with a knowledgeable best
estimate for motor and power supply.

karl

Indeed. Extensive experimentation is the surest way to end up with
new toys and a thinner wallet.

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:39:49 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ecnerwal quickly quoth:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

Ditto the iron bacteria here in GP. I can run a fresh cup of water and
it turns from perfectly clear into rusty brown in about half an hour.
Strange.

Not iron bacteria. Clear Water (dissolved) Iron - a different problem.
There are a variety of water-softener-like systems to remove that -
small amounts can be removed with a normal water softener. Greater
amounts will plug one up. Large amounts can be removed by aerating (or
chlorinating, which also works for the bacteria, but in the case of CWI
is serving to oxidize) and settling/filtering.

I'd rather drink my clean (and clean-tasting) ruddy water than
chlorinate it and end up with that **** they get in the city which
reeks of fish **** and chlorine. Egad!

- Metaphors Be With You -