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  #1   Report Post  
Dennis van Dam
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

I could use the assistance of anybody familiar with milling machine
spindle bearings, in particular anybody familiar with the lower "Timken"
bearings on an older Burke Millrite spindle.

I've never serviced the lower spindle bearings and today, after running
the mill for about 15 minutes at the highest possible spindle speed,
(which I've never done before), I noticed that the bottom of the quill had
become too hot to touch.

After letting it cool down I reset the drive belt to run at a lower speed
but noticed the quill was still warming up although not as bad. Maybe
it's been doing this for a while and I just hadn't noticed.

At this point it seemed a good idea to check the lower bearings for
sufficient lube and proper axial preload as, in the service manual, these
are the listed causes of this end of the spindle running hot (other than
shot bearings altogether).

Per the manual, if you drop the quill all the way down it exposes a
threaded plug in the side of the quill that can be removed with a 5/16"
hex key to lubricate or adjust preload on the lower spindle bearings.

However the quill plug on my mill has a curious arrangment occupying the
5/16" hex socket in the plug which precludes being able to engage the plug
with a hex key. It appears to be something in the way of a "half
Alemite" fitting that somebody made up and inserted to facilitate oiling
the lower bearings without removing the plug. At least this is what the
guy at DC Morrison (they handle Burke Millrite machines) postulated when I
described it over the phone. Even if this is what it is, efforts to pass
oil through the fitting in the plug did not appear to be very effective,
most/all of the oil coming out of the spout just dripped down the outside
of the quill .

Before I attack this setup with a drill and an easy out, so that I can
remove the plug and properly lube/adjust the bearings, I thought I'd post
a couple of pictures to the drop box for scrutiny by those more
knowlegeable than I, to confirm that this arrangement is not stock/proper
and that I'm not going to mess any thing up by removing this " modified
oil port" in the hex socket of the plug.


The jpgs of the quill plug are at:

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/...ill_Plug_1.JPG

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/...ill_Plug_2.JPG

If you know anything about it, I really appreciate anybody who takes the
time to look at the jpgs and let me know whether this plug ought to stay
this way or if I ought to remove the "oil port" by what ever means and
restore the plug to original in order to service the bearings.

In particular if there's anybody who has a Burke Millrite that could maybe
check the quill plug on their mill and compare it to the posted jpgs to
establish whether it's the same or different than my quill plug, that
would be great.

Thanks,

Dennis van Dam
  #2   Report Post  
Steve Smith
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

My Millrite has the same fitting. There is maybe 0.1" depth of hex
available to grip with a wrench on mine; depending how tight the screw
is, it might be removable. But you've probably tried that already. I'm
afraid I can't help on your other questions, don't know anything about
this fitting.
Steve Smith

Dennis van Dam wrote:

I could use the assistance of anybody familiar with milling machine
spindle bearings, in particular anybody familiar with the lower "Timken"
bearings on an older Burke Millrite spindle.

I've never serviced the lower spindle bearings and today, after running
the mill for about 15 minutes at the highest possible spindle speed,
(which I've never done before), I noticed that the bottom of the quill had
become too hot to touch.

After letting it cool down I reset the drive belt to run at a lower speed
but noticed the quill was still warming up although not as bad. Maybe
it's been doing this for a while and I just hadn't noticed.

At this point it seemed a good idea to check the lower bearings for
sufficient lube and proper axial preload as, in the service manual, these
are the listed causes of this end of the spindle running hot (other than
shot bearings altogether).

Per the manual, if you drop the quill all the way down it exposes a
threaded plug in the side of the quill that can be removed with a 5/16"
hex key to lubricate or adjust preload on the lower spindle bearings.

However the quill plug on my mill has a curious arrangment occupying the
5/16" hex socket in the plug which precludes being able to engage the plug
with a hex key. It appears to be something in the way of a "half
Alemite" fitting that somebody made up and inserted to facilitate oiling
the lower bearings without removing the plug. At least this is what the
guy at DC Morrison (they handle Burke Millrite machines) postulated when I
described it over the phone. Even if this is what it is, efforts to pass
oil through the fitting in the plug did not appear to be very effective,
most/all of the oil coming out of the spout just dripped down the outside
of the quill .

Before I attack this setup with a drill and an easy out, so that I can
remove the plug and properly lube/adjust the bearings, I thought I'd post
a couple of pictures to the drop box for scrutiny by those more
knowlegeable than I, to confirm that this arrangement is not stock/proper
and that I'm not going to mess any thing up by removing this " modified
oil port" in the hex socket of the plug.


The jpgs of the quill plug are at:

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/...ill_Plug_1.JPG

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/...ill_Plug_2.JPG

If you know anything about it, I really appreciate anybody who takes the
time to look at the jpgs and let me know whether this plug ought to stay
this way or if I ought to remove the "oil port" by what ever means and
restore the plug to original in order to service the bearings.

In particular if there's anybody who has a Burke Millrite that could maybe
check the quill plug on their mill and compare it to the posted jpgs to
establish whether it's the same or different than my quill plug, that
would be great.

Thanks,

Dennis van Dam


  #3   Report Post  
Dennis van Dam
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

Steve,

Thanks for the reply.

That you have the same arrangement tends to indicate that this is not a
one off but something the factory introduced and then didn't cover with an
update to the service manual.

On mine the depth of the hex key socket is much less than 0.1", maybe only
0.030" to 0.040" . I tried pressing the hex key into this shallow recess
and carefully turning but the key just smears the recess and climbs out.
Not only is it unclear how to get the plug out as configured, how the hell
did they get it in?

Thanks again for the reply.

Dennis van Dam

PS

You ever notice the bottom of the quill warming up?

Maybe I'm worried for nothing and this was just a one time thing because I
ran the spindle at 3400 rpm when usually I'm only running it at 250 to
725.

(Still, I ought to be able to run the machine at 3400 rpm without
overheating the spindle bearings.)




In article , Steve Smith
wrote:

My Millrite has the same fitting. There is maybe 0.1" depth of hex
available to grip with a wrench on mine; depending how tight the screw
is, it might be removable. But you've probably tried that already. I'm
afraid I can't help on your other questions, don't know anything about
this fitting.
Steve Smith





Dennis van Dam wrote:

I could use the assistance of anybody familiar with milling machine
spindle bearings, in particular anybody familiar with the lower "Timken"
bearings on an older Burke Millrite spindle.

I've never serviced the lower spindle bearings and today, after running
the mill for about 15 minutes at the highest possible spindle speed,
(which I've never done before), I noticed that the bottom of the quill had
become too hot to touch.

After letting it cool down I reset the drive belt to run at a lower speed
but noticed the quill was still warming up although not as bad. Maybe
it's been doing this for a while and I just hadn't noticed.

At this point it seemed a good idea to check the lower bearings for
sufficient lube and proper axial preload as, in the service manual, these
are the listed causes of this end of the spindle running hot (other than
shot bearings altogether).

Per the manual, if you drop the quill all the way down it exposes a
threaded plug in the side of the quill that can be removed with a 5/16"
hex key to lubricate or adjust preload on the lower spindle bearings.

However the quill plug on my mill has a curious arrangment occupying the
5/16" hex socket in the plug which precludes being able to engage the plug
with a hex key. It appears to be something in the way of a "half
Alemite" fitting that somebody made up and inserted to facilitate oiling
the lower bearings without removing the plug. At least this is what the
guy at DC Morrison (they handle Burke Millrite machines) postulated when I
described it over the phone. Even if this is what it is, efforts to pass
oil through the fitting in the plug did not appear to be very effective,
most/all of the oil coming out of the spout just dripped down the outside
of the quill .

Before I attack this setup with a drill and an easy out, so that I can
remove the plug and properly lube/adjust the bearings, I thought I'd post
a couple of pictures to the drop box for scrutiny by those more
knowlegeable than I, to confirm that this arrangement is not stock/proper
and that I'm not going to mess any thing up by removing this " modified
oil port" in the hex socket of the plug.


The jpgs of the quill plug are at:

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/...ill_Plug_1.JPG

http://www.metalworking.com/dropbox/...ill_Plug_2.JPG

If you know anything about it, I really appreciate anybody who takes the
time to look at the jpgs and let me know whether this plug ought to stay
this way or if I ought to remove the "oil port" by what ever means and
restore the plug to original in order to service the bearings.

In particular if there's anybody who has a Burke Millrite that could maybe
check the quill plug on their mill and compare it to the posted jpgs to
establish whether it's the same or different than my quill plug, that
would be great.

Thanks,

Dennis van Dam


  #4   Report Post  
Ned Simmons
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

In article dvandam-2107040942070001@sdn-ap-
006tnnashp0217.dialsprint.net,
says...
Steve,

Thanks for the reply.

That you have the same arrangement tends to indicate that this is not a
one off but something the factory introduced and then didn't cover with an
update to the service manual.

On mine the depth of the hex key socket is much less than 0.1", maybe only
0.030" to 0.040" . I tried pressing the hex key into this shallow recess
and carefully turning but the key just smears the recess and climbs out.
Not only is it unclear how to get the plug out as configured, how the hell
did they get it in?

Thanks again for the reply.

Dennis van Dam

PS

You ever notice the bottom of the quill warming up?

Maybe I'm worried for nothing and this was just a one time thing because I
ran the spindle at 3400 rpm when usually I'm only running it at 250 to
725.

(Still, I ought to be able to run the machine at 3400 rpm without
overheating the spindle bearings.)





Look at McMaster-Carr p/n 10595K14. Does that look like
what you've got? If so, and the fitting is still OK, you'll
need something like p/n 1090K54.

Do you have any way of measuring how hot does the spindle
actually gets? Even 200F isn't likely to harm anything
unless the bearing preload changes drastically due to
thermal expansion. If it's getting tighter I'd expect the
temp to run away (hotter-tighter-hotter still- even
tighter-....), if too loose, accuracy and/or finish may
suffer.

Ned Simmons
  #5   Report Post  
Steve Smith
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

That looks exactly like what I've got, Ned. Thanks!

Steve

Ned Simmons wrote:

In article dvandam-2107040942070001@sdn-ap-
006tnnashp0217.dialsprint.net,
says...


Steve,

Thanks for the reply.

That you have the same arrangement tends to indicate that this is not a
one off but something the factory introduced and then didn't cover with an
update to the service manual.

On mine the depth of the hex key socket is much less than 0.1", maybe only
0.030" to 0.040" . I tried pressing the hex key into this shallow recess
and carefully turning but the key just smears the recess and climbs out.
Not only is it unclear how to get the plug out as configured, how the hell
did they get it in?

Thanks again for the reply.

Dennis van Dam

PS

You ever notice the bottom of the quill warming up?

Maybe I'm worried for nothing and this was just a one time thing because I
ran the spindle at 3400 rpm when usually I'm only running it at 250 to
725.

(Still, I ought to be able to run the machine at 3400 rpm without
overheating the spindle bearings.)







Look at McMaster-Carr p/n 10595K14. Does that look like
what you've got? If so, and the fitting is still OK, you'll
need something like p/n 1090K54.

Do you have any way of measuring how hot does the spindle
actually gets? Even 200F isn't likely to harm anything
unless the bearing preload changes drastically due to
thermal expansion. If it's getting tighter I'd expect the
temp to run away (hotter-tighter-hotter still- even
tighter-....), if too loose, accuracy and/or finish may
suffer.

Ned Simmons




  #6   Report Post  
Dennis van Dam
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

In article , Ned Simmons
wrote:

In article dvandam-2107040942070001@sdn-ap-
006tnnashp0217.dialsprint.net,
says...
Steve,

Thanks for the reply.

That you have the same arrangement tends to indicate that this is not a
one off but something the factory introduced and then didn't cover with an
update to the service manual.

On mine the depth of the hex key socket is much less than 0.1", maybe only
0.030" to 0.040" . I tried pressing the hex key into this shallow recess
and carefully turning but the key just smears the recess and climbs out.
Not only is it unclear how to get the plug out as configured, how the hell
did they get it in?

Thanks again for the reply.

Dennis van Dam

PS

You ever notice the bottom of the quill warming up?

Maybe I'm worried for nothing and this was just a one time thing because I
ran the spindle at 3400 rpm when usually I'm only running it at 250 to
725.

(Still, I ought to be able to run the machine at 3400 rpm without
overheating the spindle bearings.)





Look at McMaster-Carr p/n 10595K14. Does that look like
what you've got? If so, and the fitting is still OK, you'll
need something like p/n 1090K54.



Ned,

That's basically what it is only instead of being Style 3 your part number
indicates it would be more like style 1 or style 2 which are round at the
OD instead of hex shaped.

Only thing that still confused me is in the catalogue on the style 1 and
style 2 type flush grease fittings, there are "dimples" on the fitting
perimeter so that it can be engaged with a flat screw driver to install it
into a threaded hole . These dimples are not in evidence on my fitting.


Without some way to thread the fitting into a tapped hole in the bottom of
the hex socket in the plug I couldn't figure how the fitting was installed
into the plug and further with the fitting entirely occupying the the hex
socket in the plug I couldn't figure how the plug was installed into the
quill.

I could just leave the whole arrangement as is and, as you suggest, get a
special narrow coupler to get lube through the fitting to the spindle
bearings but that won't address removing the plug in the event that I need
to adjust the preload on the spindle bearings.

Accordingly I finally decided to drill the fitting out so that I could get
a hex key in and remove the plug.

This took place without any complication and only took a few moments.

Once I had it out I examined the back side of the plug and the remains of
the flush grease fitting and discovered the fitting wasn't threaded into a
tapped hole it was pressed into a plain hole. That explains the lack of
screw driver dimples on the fitting..............and possibly all that
might have been required was with the plug still in the quill, give the
face of the fitting a light rap with a hammer and punch thus (if there was
space behind it) setting it further into the hex socket in the plug
allowing a hex key to fit into the socket.

Either that or a predrilled plug was threaded into the quill and then the
flush grease fitting was set all the way in to the predrilled hole in the
plug but since the plug is already installed it doesn't matter that you
can no longer get a hex key in (thus a one way trip unless you drill the
fitting out).

Oh well live and learn, this is why I hesitated and posted to the group as
I frequently miss salient details like this one until after the fact.
(-8



Do you have any way of measuring how hot does the spindle
actually gets?


Actually I do. After I sorted out the business with the plug and got
some oil to the bearings (the manual describes obscure type of grease but
my guy at DC Morrison says "straight 30 weight oil") I attached a nice
little magnetic surface temp thermometer to the quill and turned it on at
full spindle speed (3400 rpm).

Within 30 seconds I could feel the quill starting to warm. Within 2
minutes it was acutely warm and at between 4 or 5 minutes the thermometer
was indicating and stable at 130 degrees. The way this thermometer works
it measures temp just above the surface it's attached to. That means the
quill is actually hotter and the bearings hotter still.

If 200 degrees is within allowable operating parameters maybe this is
perfectly normal (normal enough) and I just have to get used to it when
ever running at full spindle rpm.

Other wise the next thing to fiddle with is bearing preload or possibly
consider replacing the bearings.

Ned, thanks for the reply it helped to explain what was going on right at
the quill plug.

Dennis van Dam




Even 200F isn't likely to harm anything
unless the bearing preload changes drastically due to
thermal expansion. If it's getting tighter I'd expect the
temp to run away (hotter-tighter-hotter still- even
tighter-....), if too loose, accuracy and/or finish may
suffer.

Ned Simmons

  #7   Report Post  
Ned Simmons
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

In article dvandam-2207040953520001@sdn-ap-
010tnnashp0277.dialsprint.net,
says...
In article , Ned Simmons
wrote:




Do you have any way of measuring how hot does the spindle
actually gets?


Actually I do. After I sorted out the business with the plug and got
some oil to the bearings (the manual describes obscure type of grease but
my guy at DC Morrison says "straight 30 weight oil") I attached a nice
little magnetic surface temp thermometer to the quill and turned it on at
full spindle speed (3400 rpm).

Within 30 seconds I could feel the quill starting to warm. Within 2
minutes it was acutely warm and at between 4 or 5 minutes the thermometer
was indicating and stable at 130 degrees. The way this thermometer works
it measures temp just above the surface it's attached to. That means the
quill is actually hotter and the bearings hotter still.

If 200 degrees is within allowable operating parameters maybe this is
perfectly normal (normal enough) and I just have to get used to it when
ever running at full spindle rpm.

Other wise the next thing to fiddle with is bearing preload or possibly
consider replacing the bearings.


Keep it oiled and I think it'll be fine. The limiting
factor will be lubrication, and just about any grease or
oil will operate at 200-250F. If there's old grease in the
spindle that may be part of the reason it gets as hot as it
does. If that's the case, I wouldn't be surprised to see
it improve as you continue to run oil thru it. Even SAE30
is pretty heavy at 3400 RPM - the oil for a Bridgeport
spindle is approx SAE10, for example.

Ned Simmons
  #8   Report Post  
DoN. Nichols
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

In article ,
Dennis van Dam wrote:
In article , Ned Simmons
wrote:


[ ... ]

Look at McMaster-Carr p/n 10595K14. Does that look like
what you've got? If so, and the fitting is still OK, you'll
need something like p/n 1090K54.


[ ... ]

That's basically what it is only instead of being Style 3 your part number
indicates it would be more like style 1 or style 2 which are round at the
OD instead of hex shaped.


[ ... ]

I could just leave the whole arrangement as is and, as you suggest, get a
special narrow coupler to get lube through the fitting to the spindle
bearings but that won't address removing the plug in the event that I need
to adjust the preload on the spindle bearings.

Accordingly I finally decided to drill the fitting out so that I could get
a hex key in and remove the plug.


Hmm ... one thing which I just thought of -- too late, I know --
was to take an appropriate sized hex key, cut off the bent end, and put
it in the lathe to bore out everything up to a diameter corresponding to
the dimension across the flats. This would give you something which
could slide in the little corners between the cylindrical body and the
hex screw socket. Not good for much torque, but probably enough to
unscrew the device, as the cylindrical part would give some support to
the fingers from collapsing.

[ ... ]

Either that or a predrilled plug was threaded into the quill and then the
flush grease fitting was set all the way in to the predrilled hole in the
plug but since the plug is already installed it doesn't matter that you
can no longer get a hex key in (thus a one way trip unless you drill the
fitting out).


Unless the modified hex key would work.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
  #9   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:50:35 -0400, Ned Simmons
wrote:

In article dvandam-2207040953520001@sdn-ap-
010tnnashp0277.dialsprint.net,
says...
In article , Ned Simmons
wrote:




Do you have any way of measuring how hot does the spindle
actually gets?


Actually I do. After I sorted out the business with the plug and got
some oil to the bearings (the manual describes obscure type of grease but
my guy at DC Morrison says "straight 30 weight oil") I attached a nice
little magnetic surface temp thermometer to the quill and turned it on at
full spindle speed (3400 rpm).

Within 30 seconds I could feel the quill starting to warm. Within 2
minutes it was acutely warm and at between 4 or 5 minutes the thermometer
was indicating and stable at 130 degrees. The way this thermometer works
it measures temp just above the surface it's attached to. That means the
quill is actually hotter and the bearings hotter still.

If 200 degrees is within allowable operating parameters maybe this is
perfectly normal (normal enough) and I just have to get used to it when
ever running at full spindle rpm.

Other wise the next thing to fiddle with is bearing preload or possibly
consider replacing the bearings.


Keep it oiled and I think it'll be fine. The limiting
factor will be lubrication, and just about any grease or
oil will operate at 200-250F. If there's old grease in the
spindle that may be part of the reason it gets as hot as it
does. If that's the case, I wouldn't be surprised to see
it improve as you continue to run oil thru it. Even SAE30
is pretty heavy at 3400 RPM - the oil for a Bridgeport
spindle is approx SAE10, for example.

Ned Simmons


Indeed. Scounge up a gallon of DTE Light, and run it in as much as it
will take for the next 4-5 times you use it. It will help flush out
the mange and is a good high speed spindle oil in its own right.

Gunner


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to any loss or damage whatsoever caused by this device or object or by
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of highly priced garbage that you would not dream of accepting on a
bag of dog biscuits and is used solely at your own risk.'
  #10   Report Post  
Dennis van Dam
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

In article ,
wrote:

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:50:35 -0400, Ned Simmons
wrote:

In article dvandam-2207040953520001@sdn-ap-
010tnnashp0277.dialsprint.net,

says...
In article , Ned Simmons
wrote:




Do you have any way of measuring how hot does the spindle
actually gets?

Actually I do. After I sorted out the business with the plug and got
some oil to the bearings (the manual describes obscure type of grease but
my guy at DC Morrison says "straight 30 weight oil") I attached a nice
little magnetic surface temp thermometer to the quill and turned it on at
full spindle speed (3400 rpm).

Within 30 seconds I could feel the quill starting to warm. Within 2
minutes it was acutely warm and at between 4 or 5 minutes the thermometer
was indicating and stable at 130 degrees. The way this thermometer works
it measures temp just above the surface it's attached to. That means the
quill is actually hotter and the bearings hotter still.

If 200 degrees is within allowable operating parameters maybe this is
perfectly normal (normal enough) and I just have to get used to it when
ever running at full spindle rpm.

Other wise the next thing to fiddle with is bearing preload or possibly
consider replacing the bearings.



First Ned and then Gunner advised;

Keep it oiled and I think it'll be fine. The limiting
factor will be lubrication, and just about any grease or
oil will operate at 200-250F. If there's old grease in the
spindle that may be part of the reason it gets as hot as it
does. If that's the case, I wouldn't be surprised to see
it improve as you continue to run oil thru it. Even SAE30
is pretty heavy at 3400 RPM - the oil for a Bridgeport
spindle is approx SAE10, for example.

Ned Simmons


Indeed. Scounge up a gallon of DTE Light, and run it in as much as it
will take for the next 4-5 times you use it. It will help flush out
the mange and is a good high speed spindle oil in its own right.

Gunner



Now that you fellows mention it, while I was running my quill temperature
test after having given the bearings a healthy dose of oil (SouthBend
Light Medium Saybolt Universal Viscosity 150-240 seconds is what I
actually had on hand) large clods of old grease, more the consistancy of
sludge, started seeping out the bottom of the quill. It stopped after
several minutes running at high rpm after the quill temp stabilized at 130
degrees, so I assume I cleared most of the old lube. Per Gunner I'll
continue to flush to see what further comes out.

I don't anticipate running at 3400 rpm very often, in fact after getting
the spindle oiled I completed the (non-critical) job I started at 3400rpm
at 725rpm and the mill bit cut-finished the material just fine.

McMaster-Carr shows a gallon of Mobil machine/turbine DTE light for $11.98
which sounds reasonable to me. The next item down is Mobil spindle
bearing oil. I assume either in a comparable viscosity will serve? If I
can't find one or the other here in town I'll phone in an order.

Thanks to you both for the help,

Dennis van Dam


  #11   Report Post  
Dennis van Dam
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

In article , (Donald
Nichols) wrote:

In article ,
Dennis van Dam wrote:
In article , Ned Simmons
wrote:


[ ... ]

Look at McMaster-Carr p/n 10595K14. Does that look like
what you've got? If so, and the fitting is still OK, you'll
need something like p/n 1090K54.


[ ... ]

That's basically what it is only instead of being Style 3 your part number
indicates it would be more like style 1 or style 2 which are round at the
OD instead of hex shaped.


[ ... ]

I could just leave the whole arrangement as is and, as you suggest, get a
special narrow coupler to get lube through the fitting to the spindle
bearings but that won't address removing the plug in the event that I need
to adjust the preload on the spindle bearings.

Accordingly I finally decided to drill the fitting out so that I could get
a hex key in and remove the plug.


Hmm ... one thing which I just thought of -- too late, I know --
was to take an appropriate sized hex key, cut off the bent end, and put
it in the lathe to bore out everything up to a diameter corresponding to
the dimension across the flats. This would give you something which
could slide in the little corners between the cylindrical body and the
hex screw socket. Not good for much torque, but probably enough to
unscrew the device, as the cylindrical part would give some support to
the fingers from collapsing.

[ ... ]

Either that or a predrilled plug was threaded into the quill and then the
flush grease fitting was set all the way in to the predrilled hole in the
plug but since the plug is already installed it doesn't matter that you
can no longer get a hex key in (thus a one way trip unless you drill the
fitting out).


Unless the modified hex key would work.

Good Luck,
DoN.



Don,

While the hex key configuration you describe did not occur to me, I did
realize there where tiny voids between the flush grease fitting OD and the
"points" of the hex socket. I briefly considered that there might be
some scant purchase to be obtained here but dismissed it fairly quickly as
being too tight a space to practically engage.

After I read your post I produced the geometry you describe in a quick CAD
sketch on the computer, just a .3125" circle arranged concentric to a
hexagon .3125" across the flats.

On a vector from any hex point oriented to the center of the hex-circle it
measures .026" from the hex point to the fitting OD........If I end
drilled the hex key sement very carefully and kept the depth of drilling
fairly short, say 1/16 to 1/8...........that *might* have worked. Even
if the drilling operation wasn't perfectly concentric to the hex key
segment and I only came away with 4 or 5 instead of all 6 "hex point
fingers", that might have been enough of a toe hold on the plug to get it
out.

On the other hand if who ever had just taken the time to configure the
plug-grease fitting arrangement such that there would be sufficient hex
socket depth left in the plug above the fitting, I wouldn't yet again be
reminded that Necessity is a real Mother. (-8

Thanks for the reply,

Dennis van Dam
  #13   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 23:07:27 -0400, Ned Simmons
wrote:

In article dvandam-2307041238330001@sdn-ap-
010tnnashp0352.dialsprint.net,
says...


McMaster-Carr shows a gallon of Mobil machine/turbine DTE light for $11.98
which sounds reasonable to me. The next item down is Mobil spindle
bearing oil. I assume either in a comparable viscosity will serve? If I
can't find one or the other here in town I'll phone in an order.


Since SAE30 was recommended the spindle oil (ISO 22) may be
on the light side. SAE30 is approximately ISO 68 or 100,
which seems rather heavy to me. The DTE Light (ISO 32)
sounds like a good compromise. A comparable viscosity
quality hydraulic oil would also be OK and perhaps easier
to find locally in gallons.

Here's a good viscosity conversion chart.
http://www.irvingoilco.com/lubricants/viscosity.htm

Ned Simmons


Indeed. I just happen to like DTE Light for its various properties and
the fact its very commonly used in high speed collet closers, very
high speed air spindles and whatnot. Shrug..Im sure there are others
that are very good.

Gunner

That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there.
- George Orwell
  #14   Report Post  
rohamm
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

My access plug is just a plain allen screw.

A guy at d.c. morrison told me the same thing - they just throw
in some straight 30 weight before using it. I use light spindle oil.

What I want to know is: what grease corresponds to the description given
in the manual? I forget the exact wording, but it involves 'sponge' and
'soap base', and goes on to say it's not all that important. But it *does*
emphasize not to use too little or too much. Well, yeah, that's always good
advice. And useless, too.

The drawback to the spindle oil is that it ends up running out onto the work.
Since I frequently mill wood, that can be an issue. Hence my interest in
quantifying 'not too little, and not too much, but just the right amount'.

I'm a great believer in empiricism, but not in this instance.





(Dennis van Dam) wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Donald
Nichols) wrote:

In article ,
Dennis van Dam wrote:
In article , Ned Simmons
wrote:


[ ... ]

Look at McMaster-Carr p/n 10595K14. Does that look like
what you've got? If so, and the fitting is still OK, you'll
need something like p/n 1090K54.


[ ... ]

That's basically what it is only instead of being Style 3 your part number
indicates it would be more like style 1 or style 2 which are round at the
OD instead of hex shaped.


[ ... ]

I could just leave the whole arrangement as is and, as you suggest, get a
special narrow coupler to get lube through the fitting to the spindle
bearings but that won't address removing the plug in the event that I need
to adjust the preload on the spindle bearings.

Accordingly I finally decided to drill the fitting out so that I could get
a hex key in and remove the plug.


Hmm ... one thing which I just thought of -- too late, I know --
was to take an appropriate sized hex key, cut off the bent end, and put
it in the lathe to bore out everything up to a diameter corresponding to
the dimension across the flats. This would give you something which
could slide in the little corners between the cylindrical body and the
hex screw socket. Not good for much torque, but probably enough to
unscrew the device, as the cylindrical part would give some support to
the fingers from collapsing.

[ ... ]

Either that or a predrilled plug was threaded into the quill and then the
flush grease fitting was set all the way in to the predrilled hole in the
plug but since the plug is already installed it doesn't matter that you
can no longer get a hex key in (thus a one way trip unless you drill the
fitting out).


Unless the modified hex key would work.

Good Luck,
DoN.



Don,

While the hex key configuration you describe did not occur to me, I did
realize there where tiny voids between the flush grease fitting OD and the
"points" of the hex socket. I briefly considered that there might be
some scant purchase to be obtained here but dismissed it fairly quickly as
being too tight a space to practically engage.

After I read your post I produced the geometry you describe in a quick CAD
sketch on the computer, just a .3125" circle arranged concentric to a
hexagon .3125" across the flats.

On a vector from any hex point oriented to the center of the hex-circle it
measures .026" from the hex point to the fitting OD........If I end
drilled the hex key sement very carefully and kept the depth of drilling
fairly short, say 1/16 to 1/8...........that *might* have worked. Even
if the drilling operation wasn't perfectly concentric to the hex key
segment and I only came away with 4 or 5 instead of all 6 "hex point
fingers", that might have been enough of a toe hold on the plug to get it
out.

On the other hand if who ever had just taken the time to configure the
plug-grease fitting arrangement such that there would be sufficient hex
socket depth left in the plug above the fitting, I wouldn't yet again be
reminded that Necessity is a real Mother. (-8

Thanks for the reply,

Dennis van Dam

  #15   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

On 24 Jul 2004 06:41:43 -0700, (rohamm) wrote:


The drawback to the spindle oil is that it ends up running out onto the work.
Since I frequently mill wood, that can be an issue. Hence my interest in
quantifying 'not too little, and not too much, but just the right amount'.


Nearly all such spindles are direct loss lubrication..ie the bearings
are not sealed to retain oil and leak out down the quill etc. Or
sealed poorly due to age etc.
This really is indeed an issue when milling woods and paper based
materials. Ive seen some home made slingers that clamp around the
quill that folks have put together for this, but the only really good
solution is finding another type of mill, use a router head, or run it
for a bit before putting any wood down and hope that one forlorn
droplet doesnt finally wend its way down and around and jump off on
that piece of work.

Ive been seeing some high speed 30 taper spindles on Ebay recently,
that perhaps you could make up a sub spindle that will clamp to your
ram or head for wood work.

Ive got a shop I service, that has a number of old Bridgeports that
have a simple die grinder type unit mounted on the end of the quill
with a simple pinch clamp made from aluminum plate. They use them for
fine work in phenolics and such. Easy to install, easy to remove, and
allows them to use the table and down feed as normal. A dremel tool
could be so adapted as well. This allows them to get 10,000-30,000 rpm
oil free, and still allows them to use the regular motor/spindle when
they need to. They make the clamp from 1" aluminum plate, so they
only loose 1" of spindle down travel as the clamp goes on the first 1"
of the quill.

Just a heads up.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke


  #16   Report Post  
Dennis van Dam
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

In article , Ned Simmons
wrote:

In article dvandam-2307041238330001@sdn-ap-
010tnnashp0352.dialsprint.net,
says...


McMaster-Carr shows a gallon of Mobil machine/turbine DTE light for $11.98
which sounds reasonable to me. The next item down is Mobil spindle
bearing oil. I assume either in a comparable viscosity will serve? If I
can't find one or the other here in town I'll phone in an order.


Since SAE30 was recommended the spindle oil (ISO 22) may be
on the light side. SAE30 is approximately ISO 68 or 100,
which seems rather heavy to me. The DTE Light (ISO 32)
sounds like a good compromise. A comparable viscosity
quality hydraulic oil would also be OK and perhaps easier
to find locally in gallons.

Here's a good viscosity conversion chart.
http://www.irvingoilco.com/lubricants/viscosity.htm

Ned Simmons



Ned,

Thanks for the link, that really helped to equate the different viscosity
designators in McMaster-Carr from one lube to the next. I see what you
mean regarding the spindle oil being on the thin side even in its most
viscous form (ISO 22) compared to the range of viscosities the DTE oil
comes in.

Thanks again for the help.

Dennis van Dam
  #17   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 22:30:47 GMT, (Dennis van
Dam) wrote:

In article , Ned Simmons
wrote:

In article dvandam-2307041238330001@sdn-ap-
010tnnashp0352.dialsprint.net,

says...


McMaster-Carr shows a gallon of Mobil machine/turbine DTE light for $11.98
which sounds reasonable to me. The next item down is Mobil spindle
bearing oil. I assume either in a comparable viscosity will serve? If I
can't find one or the other here in town I'll phone in an order.


Since SAE30 was recommended the spindle oil (ISO 22) may be
on the light side. SAE30 is approximately ISO 68 or 100,
which seems rather heavy to me. The DTE Light (ISO 32)
sounds like a good compromise. A comparable viscosity
quality hydraulic oil would also be OK and perhaps easier
to find locally in gallons.

Here's a good viscosity conversion chart.
http://www.irvingoilco.com/lubricants/viscosity.htm

Ned Simmons



Ned,

Thanks for the link, that really helped to equate the different viscosity
designators in McMaster-Carr from one lube to the next. I see what you
mean regarding the spindle oil being on the thin side even in its most
viscous form (ISO 22) compared to the range of viscosities the DTE oil
comes in.

Thanks again for the help.

Dennis van Dam


http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lub...med_Series.asp

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child -
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosphy of sniveling brats." -- P.J. O'Rourke
  #18   Report Post  
Dennis van Dam
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

In article ,
(rohamm) wrote:

My access plug is just a plain allen screw.


That's how DC Morrison Man says a Millrite ships out. Either the
arrangement Steve Smith and I have on our quills is a common after market
mod or there was a period when the factory *did* make quill plugs that way
but then stopped (possibly because somebody realized what a pain it was to
get back into the quill with this type of plug).

What is curious is that while the manual doesn't refer to a flush grease
fitting in the quill plug in any text, the cross section diagram of the
quill on page 14 appears to show a cross section of the fitting inside the
plug. Additionally it shows it set into the plug deep enough to leave
room for an allen key.

Moot point now. I replaced my fittinged plug with a plain plug like
yours. 27 cents at my local industrial supply.


A guy at d.c. morrison told me the same thing - they just throw
in some straight 30 weight before using it. I use light spindle oil.

What I want to know is: what grease corresponds to the description given
in the manual? I forget the exact wording, but it involves 'sponge' and
'soap base', and goes on to say it's not all that important.


Per the manual;

"Sohio Sactram No. 2 or equivalent" otherwise described as "a shot
fibre, medium sponge grease with sodium soap base".

I happened across a brief technical blurb "About Grease" in the
McMaster-Carr catalogue at the begining of the listings for grease
products. It sheds a bit of light on what is meant by this but I had the
same reaction as you, what-n-a-hell is "a shot fibre, medium sponge
grease with sodium soap base" and where do I find it.

But it *does*
emphasize not to use too little or too much. Well, yeah, that's always good
advice. And useless, too.

The drawback to the spindle oil is that it ends up running out onto the work.
Since I frequently mill wood, that can be an issue. Hence my interest in
quantifying 'not too little, and not too much, but just the right amount'.

I'm a great believer in empiricism, but not in this instance.



Again I came away with the same impression as you. The manual states
twice in two paragraphs, the second instance in caps, how important it is
not to overfill the quill and then pointedly does not indicate what the
correct amount is or at least what a subjective indicator would be in
advance of the spindle bearings over heating. If it's that critical,
they ought to put a dipstick on the quill. (-8

I could be wrong but I'm inclined to think that over filling with oil
wouldn't be as likely to over heat the bearings as over filling with
grease. But then tending to over fill to be sure there's enough doesn't
help with dripping on the woodwork.

I recently discovered how useful the MIllrite is for precision routing
wood. On sections of wood smaller than the mill table travel distances,
it beats hell out of hand holding a router against a clamped straight edge
that needs to be reset for every cut. The only aggravation is keeping
the wood chips/saw dust off of the ways and out of the works. I've been
told the resins in wood chips/dust don't do the machined bearing surfaces
of the mill any good. Near term project for the Millrite is way covers
and/or way wipers.


Dennis van Dam









(Dennis van Dam) wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Donald
Nichols) wrote:

In article

,
Dennis van Dam wrote:
In article , Ned

Simmons
wrote:

[ ... ]

Look at McMaster-Carr p/n 10595K14. Does that look like
what you've got? If so, and the fitting is still OK, you'll
need something like p/n 1090K54.

[ ... ]

That's basically what it is only instead of being Style 3 your part

number
indicates it would be more like style 1 or style 2 which are round at the
OD instead of hex shaped.

[ ... ]

I could just leave the whole arrangement as is and, as you suggest, get a
special narrow coupler to get lube through the fitting to the spindle
bearings but that won't address removing the plug in the event that

I need
to adjust the preload on the spindle bearings.

Accordingly I finally decided to drill the fitting out so that I

could get
a hex key in and remove the plug.

Hmm ... one thing which I just thought of -- too late, I know --
was to take an appropriate sized hex key, cut off the bent end, and put
it in the lathe to bore out everything up to a diameter corresponding to
the dimension across the flats. This would give you something which
could slide in the little corners between the cylindrical body and the
hex screw socket. Not good for much torque, but probably enough to
unscrew the device, as the cylindrical part would give some support to
the fingers from collapsing.

[ ... ]

Either that or a predrilled plug was threaded into the quill and then the
flush grease fitting was set all the way in to the predrilled hole in the
plug but since the plug is already installed it doesn't matter that you
can no longer get a hex key in (thus a one way trip unless you drill the
fitting out).

Unless the modified hex key would work.

Good Luck,
DoN.



Don,

While the hex key configuration you describe did not occur to me, I did
realize there where tiny voids between the flush grease fitting OD and the
"points" of the hex socket. I briefly considered that there might be
some scant purchase to be obtained here but dismissed it fairly quickly as
being too tight a space to practically engage.

After I read your post I produced the geometry you describe in a quick CAD
sketch on the computer, just a .3125" circle arranged concentric to a
hexagon .3125" across the flats.

On a vector from any hex point oriented to the center of the hex-circle it
measures .026" from the hex point to the fitting OD........If I end
drilled the hex key sement very carefully and kept the depth of drilling
fairly short, say 1/16 to 1/8...........that *might* have worked. Even
if the drilling operation wasn't perfectly concentric to the hex key
segment and I only came away with 4 or 5 instead of all 6 "hex point
fingers", that might have been enough of a toe hold on the plug to get it
out.

On the other hand if who ever had just taken the time to configure the
plug-grease fitting arrangement such that there would be sufficient hex
socket depth left in the plug above the fitting, I wouldn't yet again be
reminded that Necessity is a real Mother. (-8

Thanks for the reply,

Dennis van Dam

  #19   Report Post  
Dennis van Dam
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

In article ,
wrote:

On 24 Jul 2004 06:41:43 -0700,
(rohamm) wrote:


The drawback to the spindle oil is that it ends up running out onto the work.
Since I frequently mill wood, that can be an issue. Hence my interest in
quantifying 'not too little, and not too much, but just the right amount'.


Nearly all such spindles are direct loss lubrication..ie the bearings
are not sealed to retain oil and leak out down the quill etc. Or
sealed poorly due to age etc.
This really is indeed an issue when milling woods and paper based
materials. Ive seen some home made slingers that clamp around the
quill that folks have put together for this, but the only really good
solution is finding another type of mill, use a router head, or run it
for a bit before putting any wood down and hope that one forlorn
droplet doesnt finally wend its way down and around and jump off on
that piece of work.

Ive been seeing some high speed 30 taper spindles on Ebay recently,
that perhaps you could make up a sub spindle that will clamp to your
ram or head for wood work.

Ive got a shop I service, that has a number of old Bridgeports that
have a simple die grinder type unit mounted on the end of the quill
with a simple pinch clamp made from aluminum plate. They use them for
fine work in phenolics and such. Easy to install, easy to remove, and
allows them to use the table and down feed as normal. A dremel tool
could be so adapted as well. This allows them to get 10,000-30,000 rpm
oil free, and still allows them to use the regular motor/spindle when
they need to. They make the clamp from 1" aluminum plate, so they
only loose 1" of spindle down travel as the clamp goes on the first 1"
of the quill.

Just a heads up.

Gunner



Food for thought. I just finished milling several smaller plywood boxes
with each plywood panel end mortised into the ajoining plywood panel.
It's amazing how tight you can fit up wood joinery when you gauge lengths
off to the nearest thou. Using the mill for routing operations on smaller
wood working projects is something I'll be doing more of in the future and
you've got me looking at how best to mount my die grinder up to the
quill/head of the Millrite.


Dennis van Dam
  #21   Report Post  
Dennis van Dam
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

In article ,
(rohamm) wrote:

(Dennis van Dam) wrote in message

It's amazing how tight you can fit up wood joinery when you gauge lengths
off to the nearest thou.


Isn't it though?


Using the mill for routing operations on smaller
wood working projects is something I'll be doing more of in the future and
you've got me looking at how best to mount my die grinder up to the
quill/head of the Millrite.


Dennis van Dam


We have a two century-old home in New England, and I save all the old
material
when we make any changes to it. The sub-flooring is called hard red
pine, and now it's
petrified, but man, it's beautiful. Now this is the stuff that was
too hard - lots of knots - to
plane smooth back then, but it's no match for a fly cutter on a
vertical mill.



With a name like "hard red pine" I'll bet it finishes to a very high
luster if so desired. What do you make out of it on the mill?




You really think that wood chips are bad for the ways? I clean them
off from
time to time, but they seem pretty harmless compared to steel.



I agree, I don't think a wood chip is going to do the physical damage a
metal chip would once it gets pinched between the saddle and the saddle
ways on the knee for instance, but I was given to understand it's the
resin that's leeched out of woodchips that's abrasive to the ways. I
have no idea how pronounced this effect is. I guess it depends on the
type of wood (resin) and how much exposure the machine realizes.

I grew up with a 9 inch SouthBend lathe in the basement and most of what
my father and I turned on it was wood and we never gave it a second
thought except maybe my dad emphasized keeping the machine wet with
lube. That lathe is now in my basement and I can't say it's any worse
for the wear having turned all that wood.

On the Millrite, I'm consciencious about keeping the wood chips (and metal
chips for that matter) clear because the saddle ways on the knee of my
Millrite are already pretty gouged up presumably (looks like) from metal
chips and insufficient lube. It was like that when I bought the mill.
Also it seems to me wood chips/dust permeate the nooks, crannies and
crevaces of the mill much more readily than metal chips do and there are
just more exposed machined bearing surfaces on the Millrite mill than on
the SouthBend lathe.

The other detriment caused by milling wood is that the wood chips/dust
tend to wick lube away from parts of the mill you want to keep wet with
lube. Of course the obvious solution for this is to lube the mill more
frequently when carving wood.

I was first told of the wood resin abrasion phenomena by a tool and die
maker who really knew his stuff. (Got his mechanical engineering degree
*after* a couple of decades working as a tool and die maker.) That fact
not withstanding, it does occur to me that there might be a wee bit of
"machinist arrogance" (uttered with the utmost of respect for the man and
the trade) embodied in the information, in that the purist machinist/metal
worker might be inclined to frown on using a mill to process wood, metal
working being more "technical", woodworking being more "craft", hence
processing wood on a machine tool is "an abuse" of the machine tool.

(But that last is just an impression, I'm still doing all I can to keep
the wood chips clear of the bearing surfaces on my mill.)

Dennis van Dam
  #23   Report Post  
Dennis van Dam
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burke Millrite Spindle Bearings Access Plug

In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 02:41:01 GMT,
(Dennis van
Dam) wrote:

I was first told of the wood resin abrasion phenomena by a tool and die
maker who really knew his stuff. (Got his mechanical engineering degree
*after* a couple of decades working as a tool and die maker.) That fact
not withstanding, it does occur to me that there might be a wee bit of
"machinist arrogance" (uttered with the utmost of respect for the man and
the trade) embodied in the information, in that the purist machinist/metal
worker might be inclined to frown on using a mill to process wood, metal
working being more "technical", woodworking being more "craft", hence
processing wood on a machine tool is "an abuse" of the machine tool.


I cant say Ive ever seen a wood working machine with worn parts that
could be attributed to such a phenomenon.




Gunner,

Good point, however I would contribute that wood working machinery
wouldn't be expected to hold the same tolerance that metal working
machinery holds, my point being that in so far as there is any credance to
wood resin wearing on the machinery, the effects would be less apparent on
wood working machinery than on metal working machinery.

On the other hand wood working machinery would realize a much greater
exposure to the (alleged) phenomena than metal working machinery, which
tends to bear out your implied conclusion (that wood resin abrasion is not
a problem) indicated in your observation that you've never noticed any
acute wear on wood working machinery that could be attributed to wood
resin abrasion.

This would bring me back to my hunch that some part/all of of the
phenomena is/may be attributable to "metal working tools being appropriate
to metal processing only" per metal working purists.

(BUT I'm still going to keep ALL chips as clear of the the machine as
possible) (-8

Dennis van Dam



Ive cut a fair amount of wood on metalworking machines..and the only
problem Ive noted is the tendency for the sawdust to turn into
cardboard in the damnedest places.


That would tend to support my observation that wood chips/dust is more
pervasive/intrusive on the machinery than metal chips.

(Also that it's more compressive) (-8




Gunner

"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except
in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism
proposes to enslave men by force, socialism - by vote. It is
merely the difference between murder and suicide."
- Ayn Rand, from "Foreign Policy Drains U.S. of Main
Weapons"

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