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  #81   Report Post  
Inger E Johansson
 
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Default Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland earlier Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper

Doug,
I suggest that you learn how to read works of History and how to analyse
what's said and what's not said. I suggest that you read it carefully and go
on to the sources mentioned. You did get the file(s) two days ago(?) from
Goran. Didn't you? You haven't spent 1/10 of the time needed by any given
scholar of History before you try to dismiss them.

Give up. Origin document still exists no matter when the works about it were
written. It's definitely 100% certain that Ivar Bardson did collect a
silvered coconut bowl from Vinland North America 1364 to the Papal
Collector. You can't run away from this, you know. Nothing you say or put
forward can dismiss this. You better accept it.

Inger E


  #82   Report Post  
Doug Weller
 
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Default Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland earlier Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 17:08:33 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote:

I suggest that you learn how to read works of History and how to analyse
what's said and what's not said. I suggest that you read it carefully and go
on to the sources mentioned. You did get the file(s) two days ago(?) from
Goran. Didn't you? You haven't spent 1/10 of the time needed by any given
scholar of History before you try to dismiss them.

Give up. Origin document still exists no matter when the works about it were
written. It's definitely 100% certain that Ivar Bardson did collect a
silvered coconut bowl from Vinland North America 1364 to the Papal
Collector. You can't run away from this, you know. Nothing you say or put
forward can dismiss this. You better accept it.


The files have nothing to do with this discussion, which is whether you can
name some noted scholars today who accept this. Are you saying that Göran
is one of these?

You also don't seem to know where in those files this bowl is mentioned. Or
even which file.

Why don't you know?

Doug
  #83   Report Post  
Inger E Johansson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland earlier Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper

Doug,
as I told you: You are no scholar of History nor do you know how to read,
evaluate validate and analyze Historian works. You are excused. But yes the
text you had, didn't you got two from Goran?, does relate to the artifact
and discuss it even if you don't have all the details in that. I take it
that you haven't had the other files from Scotland? Can't do anything more
than remind my scholar friend.

Inger E
"Doug Weller" skrev i meddelandet
...
On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 17:08:33 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote:

I suggest that you learn how to read works of History and how to analyse
what's said and what's not said. I suggest that you read it carefully

and go
on to the sources mentioned. You did get the file(s) two days ago(?)

from
Goran. Didn't you? You haven't spent 1/10 of the time needed by any

given
scholar of History before you try to dismiss them.

Give up. Origin document still exists no matter when the works about it

were
written. It's definitely 100% certain that Ivar Bardson did collect a
silvered coconut bowl from Vinland North America 1364 to the Papal
Collector. You can't run away from this, you know. Nothing you say or

put
forward can dismiss this. You better accept it.


The files have nothing to do with this discussion, which is whether you

can
name some noted scholars today who accept this. Are you saying that Göran
is one of these?

You also don't seem to know where in those files this bowl is mentioned.

Or
even which file.

Why don't you know?

Doug



  #84   Report Post  
Tom McDonald
 
Posts: n/a
Default Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland earlier DeterminingGeologic Sources of Native American Copper

Inger E Johansson wrote:

Doug,
I suggest that you learn how to read works of History and how to analyse
what's said and what's not said. I suggest that you read it carefully and go
on to the sources mentioned. You did get the file(s) two days ago(?) from
Goran. Didn't you? You haven't spent 1/10 of the time needed by any given
scholar of History before you try to dismiss them.

Give up. Origin document still exists no matter when the works about it were
written. It's definitely 100% certain that Ivar Bardson did collect a
silvered coconut bowl from Vinland North America 1364 to the Papal
Collector. You can't run away from this, you know. Nothing you say or put
forward can dismiss this. You better accept it.

Inger E



Inger,

Let's say Bardason did collect the bowl from Vinland. What
evidence do you have that it would have been _made_ in Vinland?
There was trade between Europe and Greenland; and if Vinland
were as vigorous a colony as you seem to believe, then there
would have been communication between Greenland and Vinland.
Why do you insist that the bowl couldn't have come from Europe,
where these things were to be found at that time, and wound up
in Vinland, to be collected for the tithe and _returned_ to Europe?

Has the silver in the bowl been analyzed to pin-point its
origin? Or don't you know about this?

Tom McDonald
  #85   Report Post  
Inger E Johansson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland earlier Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper


"Tom McDonald" skrev i meddelandet
...
Inger E Johansson wrote:

Doug,
I suggest that you learn how to read works of History and how to analyse
what's said and what's not said. I suggest that you read it carefully

and go
on to the sources mentioned. You did get the file(s) two days ago(?)

from
Goran. Didn't you? You haven't spent 1/10 of the time needed by any

given
scholar of History before you try to dismiss them.

Give up. Origin document still exists no matter when the works about it

were
written. It's definitely 100% certain that Ivar Bardson did collect a
silvered coconut bowl from Vinland North America 1364 to the Papal
Collector. You can't run away from this, you know. Nothing you say or

put
forward can dismiss this. You better accept it.

Inger E



Inger,

Let's say Bardason did collect the bowl from Vinland. What
evidence do you have that it would have been _made_ in Vinland?


Only the word of a medicineman of the tribe that mined the silver that the
Norse traded silver over to Greenland and beyond..But as you might
understand the essential factor isn't were the coconut origined from,
nor who brought the coconut or the coconut shell to Vinland,
but we also know that such an item wasn't among the reliks the Vatican sent
to the dioceses under Gardar.
Do you remember that I sent you the diploma texts for those three years ago?
If not we can take that discussion in a later thread-not here.

We also know that one more such bowl was taken via Greenland to Iceland.
Does we know who the goldsmith was? NO. While I do know that Iceland between
1050 and 1400 had splendid goldsmiths working in gold and silver I haven't
seen that epitet/title given to anyone who lived in Greenland or passed on
to NA. Do I believe that the silvered bowl could have been made by Indians.
Definitely possible. That we don't know at all.
What we do know as a fact is that Ivar Bardson collected the silvered bowl
in Vinland as part of the tithes. We know he delievered it and the rest of
the Tiundetaka(all tithes collected for the dioceses under Gardar See) to
the Papal representant in Stavanger 1364.

There was trade between Europe and Greenland; and if Vinland
were as vigorous a colony as you seem to believe, then there
would have been communication between Greenland and Vinland.


I guess you know that almost all scholars believe that the Greenland trade
had faded in 1430's? That's not true as I showed in the diploma where King
Erik called for the English to pay a large amount for not paying taxes while
trading in Icelandic and Greenlandic waters and for the English pirates
stealing ships with valuable cargo? I guess you know that the Icelanders had
good record for the sailing on Iceland. Had the English only been in
Icelandic waters many more English ships would have been noted in the
Annals.

On top of it all - the only two such bowls can be linked to be transported
via Greenland. No such silvered bowls are noted to have been shipped away
from the Old World and what you and others might not be aware of the ship's
cargo and the lists from 14th century are much much better than you can
imagin.


Why do you insist that the bowl couldn't have come from Europe,
where these things were to be found at that time, and wound up
in Vinland, to be collected for the tithe and _returned_ to Europe?


That's a 'What if' scenario that has no bearing what so ever to actual
situation at that time. See above.

Has the silver in the bowl been analyzed to pin-point its
origin? Or don't you know about this?


While the origin documents still exists I am not sure where the bowl is
after WWII. As so many other valuable things it's hard to tell where
everything went during the war.

Inger E

Tom McDonald





  #86   Report Post  
Tom McDonald
 
Posts: n/a
Default Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland earlier DeterminingGeologic Sources of Native American Copper

Inger E Johansson wrote:

"Tom McDonald" skrev i meddelandet
...


snip

Inger,

Let's say Bardason did collect the bowl from Vinland. What
evidence do you have that it would have been _made_ in Vinland?



Only the word of a medicineman of the tribe that mined the silver that the
Norse traded silver over to Greenland and beyond..


Inger,

Will you tell me who this medicine man was, what tribe he
belonged to, and when his story was recorded?

But as you might
understand the essential factor isn't were the coconut origined from,
nor who brought the coconut or the coconut shell to Vinland,


Well, if you are telling me that the bowl was made in North
America, it would be essential to know how the shell got there.
Your assertions about Texas, Florida and the Caribbean to the
contrary, I still haven't seen valid evidence that coconuts
existed in North America or the Caribbean before the Spanish
Conquista, much less ~150 years earlier.

but we also know that such an item wasn't among the reliks the Vatican sent
to the dioceses under Gardar.


Why would it have had to have been a relic sent by the Vatican?
Why could it not have been a gift from a wealthy person in
Norway, or a personal item brought by a trader or immigrant to
Greenland? Surely you don't insist that all high-status items
in Greenland and Vinland had to have been sent by the Vatican to
church authorities under Gardar?

Do you remember that I sent you the diploma texts for those three years ago?
If not we can take that discussion in a later thread-not here.


I don't recall that you did send such, but in any case as I
told you, I've lost any copies that I had on my computer, and
had to erase my Zip disks to try to save what I could from
another computer mishap.

We also know that one more such bowl was taken via Greenland to Iceland.
Does we know who the goldsmith was? NO. While I do know that Iceland between
1050 and 1400 had splendid goldsmiths working in gold and silver I haven't
seen that epitet/title given to anyone who lived in Greenland or passed on
to NA. Do I believe that the silvered bowl could have been made by Indians.
Definitely possible. That we don't know at all.


Are there any photos of the bowl that we can look at?

Has the silver used in the bowl been analyzed as to its source?

What we do know as a fact is that Ivar Bardson collected the silvered bowl
in Vinland as part of the tithes. We know he delievered it and the rest of
the Tiundetaka(all tithes collected for the dioceses under Gardar See) to
the Papal representant in Stavanger 1364.


From some of the English translations of relevant papal records
I've read, there was at least some gold and silver in Greenland
at the relevant time. I don't know, but I suspect, that some
Greenlanders might have had personal items of precious metals.

If the only thing we know to be a fact are that Bardason took a
coconut bowl from the Gardar see back to Norway as part of the
tithes owed by Gardar, and that the Vatican never sent such an
item to Gardar, how can we conclude that no such item was _ever_
brought to Greenland in some other way?



There was trade between Europe and Greenland; and if Vinland
were as vigorous a colony as you seem to believe, then there
would have been communication between Greenland and Vinland.



I guess you know that almost all scholars believe that the Greenland trade
had faded in 1430's? That's not true as I showed in the diploma where King
Erik called for the English to pay a large amount for not paying taxes while
trading in Icelandic and Greenlandic waters and for the English pirates
stealing ships with valuable cargo? I guess you know that the Icelanders had
good record for the sailing on Iceland. Had the English only been in
Icelandic waters many more English ships would have been noted in the
Annals.

On top of it all - the only two such bowls can be linked to be transported
via Greenland. No such silvered bowls are noted to have been shipped away
from the Old World and what you and others might not be aware of the ship's
cargo and the lists from 14th century are much much better than you can
imagin.


Do the ships' manifests detail every item brought by every ship
and every passenger to Greenland? Are there no missing
manifests, or manifests that are unreadable in part?

Was there no un-authorized trading? You tell us that English
pirates operated in that area. Do you insist that such an item
might not have been traded to Greenlanders by such pirates?

Not to mention, of course, the many shipwrecks in Greenland
waters, which might have left cargo washed up on shore.

Yes, these are 'what-if's'. But to date, you've given us no
evidence that requires the bowl, apparently much like other
bowls known from that time in Europe, to have been made in North
America. If you can provide such evidence (and I will stipulate
that you've heard some story about an unspecified medicine man
from an unspecified tribe that reported silver exports; and that
Ivar B. did transport a coconut bowl from Greenland to Norway as
part of the tithes of the Gardar see), I'll take a look at it.

Why do you insist that the bowl couldn't have come from Europe,
where these things were to be found at that time, and wound up
in Vinland, to be collected for the tithe and _returned_ to Europe?



That's a 'What if' scenario that has no bearing what so ever to actual
situation at that time. See above.


You've not given us conclusive evidence to say the bowl was
made in America. All we know for sure is that Bardason brought
such a thing to Europe from Greenland. Its provenance isn't
clear; if it is clear to you, either provide the evidence, or
stop saying that it the provenance is known.


Has the silver in the bowl been analyzed to pin-point its
origin? Or don't you know about this?



While the origin documents still exists I am not sure where the bowl is
after WWII. As so many other valuable things it's hard to tell where
everything went during the war.


That's not what I asked. I asked if the silver in the artifact
had been analyzed so as to pin-point its source.

BTW, is the sensitivity of some information around this issue
something to do with Nazi confiscation of treasure, and
questions of repatriation of same? If so, I'm not sure why the
secrecy; unless it is to protect the gnomes of Zurich, or
current owners of questionable items.

Tom McDonald
  #87   Report Post  
Doug Weller
 
Posts: n/a
Default Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland earlier Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 16:50:06 -0500, Tom McDonald wrote:
[SNIP]
You've not given us conclusive evidence to say the bowl was
made in America. All we know for sure is that Bardason brought
such a thing to Europe from Greenland.


Did I miss something? Where can I read about this?

[SNIP]

Thanks

Doug
  #88   Report Post  
Inger E Johansson
 
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Default Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland earlier Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper


"Tom McDonald" skrev i meddelandet
...
Inger E Johansson wrote:

"Tom McDonald" skrev i meddelandet
...


snip

Inger,

Let's say Bardason did collect the bowl from Vinland. What
evidence do you have that it would have been _made_ in Vinland?



Only the word of a medicineman of the tribe that mined the silver that

the
Norse traded silver over to Greenland and beyond..


Inger,

Will you tell me who this medicine man was, what tribe he
belonged to, and when his story was recorded?


It's his story to tell when he and I have gone thru all we know on both
sides about contacts in Pre-Columbian days. You see there is an artifact
which an other tribe was given in mid 14th century involved in our
discussions. But as I said: It's his story for him to tell. Which he will
when he feel the time is right.

But as you might
understand the essential factor isn't were the coconut origined from,
nor who brought the coconut or the coconut shell to Vinland,


Well, if you are telling me that the bowl was made in North
America, it would be essential to know how the shell got there.


Why? That doesn't alter the fact that the silvered coconut bowl was
collected by Ivar Bardson in Vinland as part of the tithes for Vinland in
1354-1364.


Your assertions about Texas, Florida and the Caribbean to the
contrary, I still haven't seen valid evidence that coconuts
existed in North America or the Caribbean before the Spanish
Conquista, much less ~150 years earlier.


Have you read all Spaniards and others documents?

but we also know that such an item wasn't among the reliks the Vatican

sent
to the dioceses under Gardar.


Why would it have had to have been a relic sent by the Vatican?


It isn't. That's the fact.

Why could it not have been a gift from a wealthy person in
Norway, or a personal item brought by a trader or immigrant to
Greenland?


The valuable items made in Europe that made it's way to Greenland are well
documented in ships-papers.
The bowl came from Vinland via Greenland. Not from the later. Accept that.


Surely you don't insist that all high-status items
in Greenland and Vinland had to have been sent by the Vatican to
church authorities under Gardar?


Well the fact is that if anything valuable such as silver and gold, books
and wine for that matters was sent from England, France(Flandern mostely) or
Norway it's noted. From the two former they needed acceptance to trade with
the Greenlanders. But the silvered coconut bowl was brought back from
Vinland by Ivar Bardson. You better accept that.

Do you remember that I sent you the diploma texts for those three years

ago?
If not we can take that discussion in a later thread-not here.


I don't recall that you did send such, but in any case as I
told you, I've lost any copies that I had on my computer, and
had to erase my Zip disks to try to save what I could from
another computer mishap.

We also know that one more such bowl was taken via Greenland to Iceland.
Does we know who the goldsmith was? NO. While I do know that Iceland

between
1050 and 1400 had splendid goldsmiths working in gold and silver I

haven't
seen that epitet/title given to anyone who lived in Greenland or passed

on
to NA. Do I believe that the silvered bowl could have been made by

Indians.
Definitely possible. That we don't know at all.


Are there any photos of the bowl that we can look at?


Of this one I don't know. Ask Goran if he knows about the other one.

Has the silver used in the bowl been analyzed as to its source?


???? Did you read what I wrote?????


What we do know as a fact is that Ivar Bardson collected the silvered

bowl
in Vinland as part of the tithes. We know he delievered it and the rest

of
the Tiundetaka(all tithes collected for the dioceses under Gardar See)

to
the Papal representant in Stavanger 1364.


From some of the English translations of relevant papal records
I've read, there was at least some gold and silver in Greenland
at the relevant time. I don't know, but I suspect, that some
Greenlanders might have had personal items of precious metals.


Well they didn't take it with them from Norway. Nor was there any gold and
silver mines in Iceland at least not at the time. Only one gold item found
in Greenland recorded to have been made by a French(Parisian?) goldsmith and
that's a ring from 1500.



If the only thing we know to be a fact are that Bardason took a
coconut bowl from the Gardar see back to Norway as part of the
tithes owed by Gardar, and that the Vatican never sent such an
item to Gardar, how can we conclude that no such item was _ever_
brought to Greenland in some other way?


The normal People in Northern Scandinavia weren't especially wealthy in
those days you know. The Greenlanders seems to have lived a much better life
then their alikes in Scandinavia.




There was trade between Europe and Greenland; and if Vinland
were as vigorous a colony as you seem to believe, then there
would have been communication between Greenland and Vinland.



I guess you know that almost all scholars believe that the Greenland

trade
had faded in 1430's? That's not true as I showed in the diploma where

King
Erik called for the English to pay a large amount for not paying taxes

while
trading in Icelandic and Greenlandic waters and for the English pirates
stealing ships with valuable cargo? I guess you know that the Icelanders

had
good record for the sailing on Iceland. Had the English only been in
Icelandic waters many more English ships would have been noted in the
Annals.

On top of it all - the only two such bowls can be linked to be

transported
via Greenland. No such silvered bowls are noted to have been shipped

away
from the Old World and what you and others might not be aware of the

ship's
cargo and the lists from 14th century are much much better than you can
imagin.


Do the ships' manifests detail every item brought by every ship
and every passenger to Greenland? When valuable things were on the

agenda - more or less yes.

Are there no missing
manifests, or manifests that are unreadable in part?


Now you are on 'what if' scenarios again.
Accept that the silvered coconut bowl was collected in Vinland North
America. How the coconut that came to be used in production of a bowl was
brought there has nothing at all to do with the facts involved.


Was there no un-authorized trading? You tell us that English
pirates operated in that area. Do you insist that such an item
might not have been traded to Greenlanders by such pirates?


That un-authorized trading started after 1410. Not before.

Not to mention, of course, the many shipwrecks in Greenland
waters, which might have left cargo washed up on shore.


Now you are working with 'what if' scenario.
That has absolutely nothing what so ever to do with the silvered coconut
bowl! Vinland wasn't Greenland only one of the Greenlandic Bishop's dioceses
and it also had it's own Bishop in 1100's as well as in late 1400's and up
to 1521 AD.

Yes, these are 'what-if's'. But to date, you've given us no
evidence that requires the bowl, apparently much like other
bowls known from that time in Europe, to have been made in North
America.


Do you not believe Papal records from the time?

If you can provide such evidence (and I will stipulate
that you've heard some story about an unspecified medicine man
from an unspecified tribe that reported silver exports; and that
Ivar B. did transport a coconut bowl from Greenland to Norway as
part of the tithes of the Gardar see), I'll take a look at it.


You are in no position to call for that. Take that up with the Vatican
Archieves not with me. They have the origin documents. If you are allowed to
have access to them, or if you have a friend(which I have had) who are
allowed access to them, I can't say. It's not my thing to present anything
but the facts involved and show, which I have done, that there are scholars
who have written about the documents and noted the coconut bowl.

All speculations is for those who are working with 'what if'. 'What if' is
fiction, what was is reality.

Inger E



  #89   Report Post  
Inger E Johansson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland earlier Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper


"Doug Weller" skrev i meddelandet
...
On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 16:50:06 -0500, Tom McDonald wrote:
[SNIP]
You've not given us conclusive evidence to say the bowl was
made in America. All we know for sure is that Bardason brought
such a thing to Europe from Greenland.


Did I miss something? Where can I read about this?


You must have missed much Doug. You have gotten files sent by Goran where
the tithes from Vinland is discussed. You have repeatedly over the last
five-six years been given the information that the origin documents still
exists in the Vatican Archieves and that several scholars up to WWII saw
them and wrote about them. You have seen, I guess, the document where Ivar
Bardson's delievery of the tithes he collected for the dioceses under Gardar
is confirmed to have been delievered. You have been given information that
the detailed list for what and from where is among the documents in the
Vatican.
Doug take time to analyse instead of jump right on. You are no scholar of
History no one expect you to be able to analyse texts and works 10 times
quicker than any scholar of History with full Latin knowledge and knowledge
of Old-Norse could do.

Inger E

[SNIP]

Thanks

Doug



  #90   Report Post  
Tom McDonald
 
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Default Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland earlier DeterminingGeologic Sources of Native American Copper

Doug Weller wrote:

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 16:50:06 -0500, Tom McDonald wrote:
[SNIP]

You've not given us conclusive evidence to say the bowl was
made in America. All we know for sure is that Bardason brought
such a thing to Europe from Greenland.



Did I miss something? Where can I read about this?

[SNIP]

Thanks

Doug


Doug,

No, you didn't miss anything. I got carried away with a
devil's advocacy, trying to pare away some of the dross to
attempt to get info from Inger. Sorry.

Tom McDonald


  #91   Report Post  
Doug Weller
 
Posts: n/a
Default Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland earlier Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 22:35:11 GMT, Inger E Johansson wrote:

"Doug Weller" skrev i meddelandet
...
On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 16:50:06 -0500, Tom McDonald wrote:
[SNIP]
You've not given us conclusive evidence to say the bowl was
made in America. All we know for sure is that Bardason brought
such a thing to Europe from Greenland.


Did I miss something? Where can I read about this?


You must have missed much Doug. You have gotten files sent by Goran where
the tithes from Vinland is discussed.


I got the files from him. For those who don't know, he's curator of maps at
the Royal Museum of Sweden. I haven't had a chance to read them all, but he
says that they do not back the claim about the bowl and that what we know
about Bardson is his voyage to Greenland in the early 1340s, that he later
became a canon in Bergen, and his involvement in witnessing the
*Stavanager* tithes.

I still think your bowl is the 1327 one, which was from the diocese of
Skara.

But you aren't claiming that those files back your bowl claim, right?


You have repeatedly over the last
five-six years been given the information that the origin documents still
exists in the Vatican Archieves and that several scholars up to WWII saw
them and wrote about them. You have seen, I guess, the document where Ivar
Bardson's delievery of the tithes he collected for the dioceses under Gardar
is confirmed to have been delievered. You have been given information that
the detailed list for what and from where is among the documents in the
Vatican.
Doug take time to analyse instead of jump right on. You are no scholar of
History no one expect you to be able to analyse texts and works 10 times
quicker than any scholar of History with full Latin knowledge and knowledge
of Old-Norse could do.


You claimed the bowl was well known by scholars. I assumed, and probably
others did also, you meant scholars today. It's no good saying that a few
people wrote about them before WWII. Without their names I can't confirm
they were scholars, and without specific references I can't find out what
they wrote. I don't mean to be rude, really, but why won't you give us
this information?
Doug
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Martyn Harrison
 
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Default Silver trade and Silver item from Vinland earlier Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper

Apparently on date Wed, 09 Jun 2004 22:23:43 GMT, "Inger E Johansson"
"Tom McDonald" skrev i meddelandet
Inger E Johansson wrote:

Let's say Bardason did collect the bowl from Vinland. What
evidence do you have that it would have been _made_ in Vinland?

Only the word of a medicineman of the tribe that mined the silver that
the Norse traded silver over to Greenland and beyond..


Will you tell me who this medicine man was, what tribe he
belonged to, and when his story was recorded?


It's his story to tell when he and I have gone thru all we know on both
sides about contacts in Pre-Columbian days. You see there is an artifact


Going to be a hell of a story if he is 700 years old.


  #93   Report Post  
Yuri Kuchinsky
 
Posts: n/a
Default Determining Geologic Sources of Native American Copper

_Determining Geologic Sources of Artifact Copper: Source
Characterization Using Trace Element Patterns._ George (Rip) Rapp,
James Allert, Vanda Vitali, Zhichuan Jing, and Eiler Henrickson.
University Press of America, Lantham. 2000.

Greetings, all,

I have now examined this book, and found it to be quite disappointing.
As it turns out, this is primarily a book about geology, about the
laboratory testing methods, and statistical analysis. The actual
artifacts are almost non-existent in this study, however odd this may
sound...

Yes, to be sure, a couple of pages are devoted to Native copper
artifacts, as well (p. 93ff). These are the 21 artifacts from 3
archaeological sites in Minnesota, all from the same neighbourhood,
close to the Canadian border.

Sure seems to me like the authors of this study weren't really so sure
about their own methodology, because they didn't go any further than
these 3 sites -- out of the hundreds if not thousands of such sites.

Let's keep in mind here that there are reputed to be over 100,000
ancient copper objects, such as tools and ornaments, that have been
found all around North America. The authors made no attempt to look at
them as a whole, or to examine any other artefacts outside of that
very small area of northern Michigan.

Were any such artifacts cast?

Are these artifacts always made of pure copper, or perhaps some copper
alloy (bronze) artifacts can also be found in North America (north of
Mexico)?

Well, since pre-contact bronze artifacts _had_ been found in Mexico,
it is almost a certainty that at least a few of them had also been
traded to the US territory. But I guess we still don't know about any
of this basic and fundamental stuff... The subject seems to be off
limits for American archaeologists.

Shouldn't a researcher firsts ask a few natural questions such as the
ones above, before delving any deeper into classifying known
geological deposits, and into the highly technical questions such as
the Neutron Activation Analysis, and the Statistics and Discriminant
Analysis? Unfortunately, Rapp et al. only seem to be interested in the
rather technical and abstruse questions associated with geological
copper, and completely uninterested in the simple and natural
questions about the actual Native copper artefacts, that should
instantly come to mind.

The assumption among the American archaeological establishment seems
to be that the Native Americans are not very creative, and could never
figure out how to melt and cast copper.

And since they could never figure out how to melt copper, then
obviously they could never smelt it either. And, by the same
questionable reasoning, neither could they have ever produced any
bronze objects.

Now, obviously, in order to overturn these ridiculous ethno-centric
assumptions, all one needs is just one cast copper artefact, and/or
one bronze artefact with good archaeological context. Then this whole
racist pyramid of doublethink will come crashing down in a pile of
dust.

So I would guess that this is the main reason why this whole subject
area is so assiduously ignored by the professional archaeologists in
the US. Since it would be so easy to overturn these questionable
assumptions, therefore all professional archaeologists must look
elsewhere when determining the subjects to follow in their research.

Regards,

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

Not ignorance, but ignorance of ignorance, is the
death of knowledge -- Alfred North Whitehead
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