Ok this is my first time using a welder, does this look well setup? I'm
going to be wearing jeans, sneakers and leather gloves as well. I'm just
paranoid about being electrocuted.

http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w1.jpg
http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w2.jpg

It's hard to get fried using a welder unless you're doing it in the bathtub.
Looks fine to be, although that plywood won't be very pretty after a little
welding.

Also wear a heavy jacket or leather apron and don't make it easy for spatter to
end up in your sneakers.

GTO(John)

Michael Shaffer wrote:
Ok this is my first time using a welder, does this look well setup? I'm
going to be wearing jeans, sneakers and leather gloves as well. I'm just
paranoid about being electrocuted.

http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w1.jpg
http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w2.jpg

Being electrocuted is just about impossible with this setup. I can
almost guarantee, however, that you will be doing the dingleberry dance
if you don't swap the sneakers for some pull-on boots (pants on the
outside). Little balls of molten metal are drawn to the space between
your toes like tornadoes to mobile homes, and I've got the scars to
prove it. Don't forget the helmet either.

That being said, enjoy yourself and prepare to be spending lots more
money for the rest of your life to feed the metal monster.

Bob

Naw, you wearing too many clothes. Just a pair of gloves, butt nekid
and a shield is all thats needed.

BTW sneakers are not usually a good mix around hot slag, sparks etc. I
would opt for leather if stick welding personally!

Long sleeves are also a good idea........

I have yet to wear gloves for any process.........hate gloves, and
only use em in and around my foundry setup, but they are a good idea
for any welding.

On Fri, 07 May 2004 04:27:01 -0400, Michael Shaffer
wrote:

===Ok this is my first time using a welder, does this look well setup? I'm
===going to be wearing jeans, sneakers and leather gloves as well. I'm just
===paranoid about being electrocuted.
===
===http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w1.jpg
===http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w2.jpg

Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wifes,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

In article Ocxmc.24914$Z%5.7831@okepread01,
Michael Shaffer wrote:

Ok this is my first time using a welder, does this look well setup? I'm
going to be wearing jeans, sneakers and leather gloves as well. I'm just
paranoid about being electrocuted.

http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w1.jpg
http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w2.jpg


Looks like overkill to me.

Because of the voltages involved (usually quite low) and the resistance
value of dry skin (usually very high) it's *VERY* difficult, bordering
on impossible, to electrocute yourself with a welder unless you're doing
something incredibly stupid - like clamping the ground lead to your
foot, peeing on it, and sucking on the end of the electrode. You *MIGHT*
take a small "poke" if you touch things just right, or are wet, but it's
EXTREMEMLY unlikely that it'll be anything more than a mild "Eep! Guess
I shouldn't have touched that!" tickle.

Strong suggestion: Get yourself a steel plate, add some legs/braces as
needed, and slap your workpiece down on that. Now attach your ground
clamp to the plate. Makes shifting things around as needed MUCH easier.
That wood is going to take some fairly serious damage, and it won't be
too long before you're either disgusted to look at it, or unable to use
it at all because the charring has weakened it too much.

Also, *LOSE THE SNEAKERS!*
Murphy's law of welding says that every pop, splatter, and hot slag chip
that jumps loose will end up inside them. Get yourself a pair of good
leather boots, preferably "engineer" or "biker" or "ranch wellington"
type in general form - No straps, no buckles, no pockets or folds to
catch hot stuff - You want plain ol' boring pull-ons, (lace-ups can and
do trap hots, and let me tell you from experience that leather *DOES NOT
COOL OFF QUICKLY* when a chunk of slag lays up against it for more than
a fraction of a second. You don't feel it "now", but give it a few
seconds, and suddenly you've got God's own hotfoot going on, with no way
to escape from it.) with a high enough shaft that you can pull the legs
of your jeans down over top of them to keep hot stuff on the outside,
where it belongs.

And one last thing:
*ABSOLUTELY NO FRAYED OR "CUFFED" JEANS, EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES,
NO MATTER HOW DESPERATE THE EMERGENCY MAY SEEM TO BE!*

You *WILL* set yourself on fire. Not might, not could, but *WILL*. Maybe
not the first time you pop an arc, maybe not the second time, but you
*WILL* set yourself ablaze.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
I respond to Email as quick as humanly possible. If you Email me and get no
response, see http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html Short
form: I'm trashing EVERYTHING that doesn't contain a password in the subject.

Don Bruder wrote:

snip

And one last thing:
*ABSOLUTELY NO FRAYED OR "CUFFED" JEANS, EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES,
NO MATTER HOW DESPERATE THE EMERGENCY MAY SEEM TO BE!*

You *WILL* set yourself on fire. Not might, not could, but *WILL*. Maybe
not the first time you pop an arc, maybe not the second time, but you
*WILL* set yourself ablaze.



I was doing a small welding job with one of those small 110V mig
machines once and learned this lesson. I wasn't particulary worried as
I had on long jeans and a sweatshirt. However, the ex tended to use
lots of those dryer sheets when doing the wash. Those suckers are
DANGEROUS. They leave a flammable residue on clothes (and I've heard,
take away flame retardency from stuff like children's sleepware).
Anyway...started feeling a little warm, lifted the helmet and noticed
half of me was becoming a blue flame. Fortunately, it burned fairly
cool and on the surface of the material so the shirt material never
actually caught fire. Wakes you the hell up quickly though.

Koz

Argh! Now you are gettin silly. Go to the local home center and blow a
couple of bucks on a plug. It'll save you more than the cost in
aggravation later.

Koz

Michael Shaffer wrote:

Thanks for the help, one more question. I don't have a 220v plug, is
it ok to just push the wires into the dryer plug I'm using (the
breaker is OFF) for now? Here's a pic (btw I made sure the breaker is
definitely off on this outlet, it has its own 30amp breaker).

http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w3.jpg

once I plug the wires into the socket, I'll turn the breaker on and
not go near the outlet while it's on (it's in the laundry room).

Also I'm 95% sure of this, but the white and black wires don't go in
any particular side right?

Thanks

Michael Shaffer wrote:

Ok this is my first time using a welder, does this look well setup?
I'm going to be wearing jeans, sneakers and leather gloves as well.
I'm just paranoid about being electrocuted.

http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w1.jpg
http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w2.jpg

In article Fwymc.25122$Z%5.7171@okepread01,
Michael Shaffer wrote:

Thanks for the help, one more question. I don't have a 220v plug, is it
ok to just push the wires into the dryer plug I'm using

It's not OK, and it's not smart. Buy a plug - they don't cost much.
Sheesh.

--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by

In article Fwymc.25122$Z%5.7171@okepread01,
Michael Shaffer wrote:

Thanks for the help, one more question. I don't have a 220v plug, is it
ok to just push the wires into the dryer plug I'm using (the breaker is
OFF) for now?

Not just "no", or even "NO!", or even "*NO!!!*", but "**** NO, YOU CRAZY
SONUVVABITCH!!!!!"

Does that get the message across clearly enough?

Get to the hardware store or welding supply, and get a proper plug.
Then, since it's quite clear (by virtue of the fact that you needed to
ask the question at all - if you had any idea what's involved, you would
have already known the answer without needing to ask) that you have *NO
CLUE* what you're doing in that area, hire somebody to install it
properly for you. Unlike the welder, that sort of screwing around *CAN*
get you killed. What I see in the picture is a fire and/or electrocution
just waiting for a chance to happen. Never mind the lack of any
grounding, which may leave the welder's case electrically "hot" enough
to fry you crispy the first time you turn it on.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
I respond to Email as quick as humanly possible. If you Email me and get no
response, see http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html Short
form: I'm trashing EVERYTHING that doesn't contain a password in the subject.

"Michael Shaffer" wrote in message
news:Ocxmc.24914$Z%5.7831@okepread01...
Ok this is my first time using a welder, does this look well setup? I'm
going to be wearing jeans, sneakers and leather gloves as well. I'm just
paranoid about being electrocuted.

http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w1.jpg
http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w2.jpg


DO NOT wear sneakers. The little molten balls will fall on the plastic, and
melt through, carrying with it a small molten plastic and steel ball. Go
buy a cheap pair of Wellingtons. They are the 12" high smooth slip on boot.
I, personally don't like the lace up boots because the molten balls eat up
the shoestrings. Let your pantleg go on the outside, and sparks will roll
off the denim and shoes. DO NOT wear a 50/50 blend shirt. Wear all cotton.
When the little molten BBs hit a blend shirt, they melt the plastic in it,
and go right through to the skin, carrying hot plastic with it.

WEAR EAR PROTECTION AT ALL TIMES WHEN WELDING. Not for the noise, but
because of the little molten BBs that will go through your eardrum as fast
as a piece of Saran wrap.

You will have a very very small chance of being electrocuted. Your major
hazards as you described it are your shoes and ear protection.

Steve, who has welded for 30 years this June.

On Fri, 07 May 2004 05:56:29 -0400, Michael Shaffer
wrote:

Thanks for the help, one more question. I don't have a 220v plug, is it
ok to just push the wires into the dryer plug I'm using (the breaker is
OFF) for now? Here's a pic (btw I made sure the breaker is definitely
off on this outlet, it has its own 30amp breaker).

http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w3.jpg

once I plug the wires into the socket, I'll turn the breaker on and not
go near the outlet while it's on (it's in the laundry room).

Also I'm 95% sure of this, but the white and black wires don't go in any
particular side right?

Thanks

dude, go out and buy a plug....

On Fri, 07 May 2004 06:20:33 -0400, Michael Shaffer
wrote:

In that picture the wires aren't connected, they're just sitting in
front of the plug.. I haven't plugged them in yet. I guess I'll go get a
plug now. I wonder if Sears sells them.

If they don't have those plugs at Sears, Lowe's, OSH, Home Depot and
most well-stocked True Value Hardware dealers will.

Did you get the message about protective gear yet? Haven't seen you
say anything about it anywhere... At a BARE minimum, you need:

A welder's smock - blue canvas fabric shirt with long leather sleeves,
buttoned all the way to the top to keep from getting a sunburned
Adam's Apple...
Good lined leather welding gloves.
Blue Jeans in good condition, bloused over boots.
Leather Upper "garage oxford" high-top shoes or some variety of boots,
preferably no laces or buckles.

A water source - a quart spray bottle of clean water (Recycled Windex
squirter), clean water in a 2-gallon pump-up garden sprayer, or a
charged garden hose with a trigger nozzle nearby, and a 1A-10B-C
Minimum rated dry-chemical fire extinguisher as a backup. Things will
catch on fire when you weld, you need a way to put them out handy.
Try the water first, the extinguisher powder makes a huge mess.

Other things that are nice to have, or get soon:

A steel topped work table, or a bunch of fire-bricks to spread out on
top of your wood table. Heck, make your first real welding project
building yourself a proper welding table out of angle iron or square
tubing with a sheet of 1/8" steel plate for the top.

(You really need to get away from wood, or one of these days you'll
look up to find your work area on fire...)

An automatic darkening welder's hood - keeps both hands free to do
welding (as compared to that "Masquerade Mask on a Stick" that came
with the welder), and you can see the work before you strike the arc.
Do NOT get the "$20 Special" at Harbor Freight when it comes to auto
hoods!! You only get two eyes, no replacements are available if you
get flashed by a faulty hood. Spend $100 for a nice one on special,
and you'll never go back to the old head-bobbing hoods or your stick
mask.

Leather Apron with Chaps - deflects the worst of the slag, keeps your
blue jeans from getting holes burned in them

A 4" angle grinder, a few grinding wheels and a wire brush for it -
you will need to clean the metal before you weld, and grind some of
the welds off to clean up when you are done.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

THIS HAS GOT TO BE A TROLL!. Or your way to inexperienced to be doing this.
I see in the first picture that your using Romex cable for extension cord.
The first few dingle berries to burn away the insulation on that will expose
you to some voltages.. If you think you can run on just black and white you
will experience ground paths you won't like. While your getting that plug
get a basic wiring book and follow it to the letter or quit while your
ahead.
lg
no neat sig line

"Michael Shaffer" wrote in message
news:dTymc.25125$Z%5.289@okepread01...
In that picture the wires aren't connected, they're just sitting in
front of the plug.. I haven't plugged them in yet. I guess I'll go get a
plug now. I wonder if Sears sells them.


Don Bruder wrote:
In article Fwymc.25122$Z%5.7171@okepread01,
Michael Shaffer wrote:


Thanks for the help, one more question. I don't have a 220v plug, is it
ok to just push the wires into the dryer plug I'm using (the breaker is
OFF) for now?


Not just "no", or even "NO!", or even "*NO!!!*", but "**** NO, YOU CRAZY
SONUVVABITCH!!!!!"

Does that get the message across clearly enough?

Get to the hardware store or welding supply, and get a proper plug.
Then, since it's quite clear (by virtue of the fact that you needed to
ask the question at all - if you had any idea what's involved, you would
have already known the answer without needing to ask) that you have *NO
CLUE* what you're doing in that area, hire somebody to install it
properly for you. Unlike the welder, that sort of screwing around *CAN*
get you killed. What I see in the picture is a fire and/or electrocution
just waiting for a chance to happen. Never mind the lack of any
grounding, which may leave the welder's case electrically "hot" enough
to fry you crispy the first time you turn it on.

On Fri, 07 May 2004 05:56:29 -0400, Michael Shaffer
wrote:

Thanks for the help, one more question. I don't have a 220v plug, is it
ok to just push the wires into the dryer plug I'm using (the breaker is
OFF) for now? Here's a pic (btw I made sure the breaker is definitely
off on this outlet, it has its own 30amp breaker).

http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w3.jpg

once I plug the wires into the socket, I'll turn the breaker on and not
go near the outlet while it's on (it's in the laundry room).

You already agreed to go get and use a plug elsewhere, so I'll
ignore that gross safety violation. ;-)

Also I'm 95% sure of this, but the white and black wires don't go in any
particular side right?

If you are using 2 conductor (+ground) Romex for 220V power, the
white is considered as a black, and treated as one, Just like if you
are using Romex inside the walls of a house, put black or colored tape
over the white wire where it is exposed at both ends where you
stripped the sheath back, as a reminder that it is not a neutral.
Same thing for 3-wire extension cords used for straight 220V.

The power wires can go in either order, as long as the bare Ground
wire goes on the L-shaped ground pin.

Oh, and Yellow sheath Romex is only 12-gauge, rated for 20 Amps.
Dryer plugs are 30 amps. (Busted by your own photos! ;-) If something
goes wrong the wire can melt & catch fire before the 30A breaker pops.

You can use this setup for a few days, but you really do need to make
a proper extension cord for your welder using 10-gauge SO flexible
cord, or put in a permanent outlet in the garage just for your welder.

Use 6-4 Romex (or #6 wire inside conduit) for the new receptacle, so
you can easily convert it to a 50A 120/240V circuit when you decide
you need a bigger welder, or a plasma cutter, or...

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

"Michael Shaffer" wrote in message
news:Ocxmc.24914$Z%5.7831@okepread01...
Ok this is my first time using a welder, does this look well setup? I'm
going to be wearing jeans, sneakers and leather gloves as well. I'm just
paranoid about being electrocuted.

http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w1.jpg
http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w2.jpg


The welder looks to small for hobby use, everything else looks
good to go, good luck.

Best Regards
Tom.

In article Fwymc.25122$Z%5.7171@okepread01, Michael Shaffer says...

Thanks for the help, one more question. I don't have a 220v plug, is it
ok to just push the wires into the dryer plug I'm using (

No. Nope. Don't. Do. That.

Purchase the correct wiring devices to connect your
welder. If you cannot decide which the right ones are,
an electrician should be hired to install what you
need. This is probably a two or three hour job and
will wind up costing at most two hundred dollars.

Consider this to be money well spent.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 6 May 2004 19:00:36 -0700, jim rozen
wrote:

In article Fwymc.25122$Z%5.7171@okepread01, Michael Shaffer says...

Thanks for the help, one more question. I don't have a 220v plug, is it
ok to just push the wires into the dryer plug I'm using (

No. Nope. Don't. Do. That.

Purchase the correct wiring devices to connect your
welder. If you cannot decide which the right ones are,
an electrician should be hired to install what you
need. This is probably a two or three hour job and
will wind up costing at most two hundred dollars.

Consider this to be money well spent.

Yes indeedy! Cheap compared to what doing otherwise will probably
cost your next-of-kin.

Al Moore

On Fri, 07 May 2004 08:57:07 -0400, Michael Shaffer
wrote:

Thanks for all the info, I didn't know you needed that much protection.

98% of the time you DON'T need it all, and you wonder why the heck
you're dressing up for a moon shot - just to stand there swaddled up
like Bibendum (look it up...) sucking down water and sweating your
butt off while doing your welding.

You do it for that /other/ 2% of the time, when you get hot spatter
down your shorts / down your neck / between your toes / up your gloves
/ etc. and start dancing the Time Warp... :-0

It gets really interesting protecting yourself when you're lying in
a restricted space like under the tail end of a car, welding over your
head... That's the kind of position where SteveB's suggestion of
wearing earmuffs (to keep the spatter out of your ears) comes into
play.

(Keep the earmuffs handy [and a face shield] for running the hand
grinder when cleaning up your work - those things are noisy, and will
ruin your ears in short order.)

Human hair burns quite nicely when exposed to hot stuff. And you
really don't want first-hand experience. There's a /reason/ why you
wear a cotton cloth engineer's cap under your welding helmet.

Don't weld galvanized metal without taking special precautions -
clean as much zinc out of the weld area as possible with a grinder,
and always have the breeze at your back - Zinc fumes do very bad
things to your lungs. A respirator is great if you do it a lot.

You also suffer through wearing all the protective gear for your
retirement years, so you aren't going in to the dermatologist every
week to get malignant melanomas removed - today's bad UV Sunburns from
any skin exposed to the welding arc flash (arms, neck, legs wearing
shorts, etc.) will be tomorrow's skin cancer.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

On Fri, 07 May 2004 08:56:21 -0400, Michael Shaffer
wrote:

The wire came with the welder (on ebay) so I thought it was ok, I guess
I'll just install an outlet in my garage, I have one extra 220v slot
left in my breaker panel.

Take a close-up picture of the breaker section of your main panel.
and another of the instruction label inside the lid (especially the
diagram of the breaker connections) if it's still there - and make
sure it's in focus this time, guy... ;-P

(Look for a "Close-up" setting on the auto-focus, often the symbol
of a flower. Or figure out how to focus manually. RTFM.)

You may be able to use thin breakers (2 breakers inside a single 1"
wide body) or Quad breakers (4 poles in a 2" body) and make more room.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

"Michael Shaffer" wrote in message
news:Fwymc.25122$Z%5.7171@okepread01...
Thanks for the help, one more question. I don't have a 220v plug, is it
ok to just push the wires into the dryer plug I'm using (the breaker is
OFF) for now? Here's a pic (btw I made sure the breaker is definitely
off on this outlet, it has its own 30amp breaker).

http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w3.jpg

once I plug the wires into the socket, I'll turn the breaker on and not
go near the outlet while it's on (it's in the laundry room).

Also I'm 95% sure of this, but the white and black wires don't go in any
particular side right?

Thanks

This has to be a goof! NOBODY would do this (i hope!) I hear those plugs are
like, almost twenty dollars, dont go rushing into a huge purchase like that,
try the "just stick the wires in the plug" deal, Bob Vila did that once on
TV i think? It's funny if you're joking, if your serious, sell anything you
own that can hurt you because you are too whacked to use electric
appliances. Amish living seems like fun... SAFE too! (and everyone kept
bitchin' about your sneakers, you most likely will need them to run to the
fire extinguisher)

good luck,
walt

Ok this is my first time using a welder, does this look well setup? I'm
going to be wearing jeans, sneakers and leather gloves as well. I'm just
paranoid about being electrocuted.

http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w1.jpg
http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w2.jpg

On Thu, 06 May 2004 21:26:57 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:

Because of the voltages involved (usually quite low) and the resistance
value of dry skin (usually very high) it's *VERY* difficult, bordering
on impossible, to electrocute yourself with a welder unless you're doing
something incredibly stupid - like clamping the ground lead to your
foot, peeing on it, and sucking on the end of the electrode. You *MIGHT*
take a small "poke" if you touch things just right, or are wet, but it's
EXTREMEMLY unlikely that it'll be anything more than a mild "Eep! Guess
I shouldn't have touched that!" tickle.

Or laying under a deck in an aluminum boat hull welding a bracket on the
back side of the steering winch.

While wearing only shorts and a leather apron on the front, on a very
hot day, a day so hot you are laying in a puddle of sweat.

It hurts with a Lincoln buzzbox.

Gunner

"A vote for Kerry is a de facto vote for bin Laden."
Strider

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 06 May 2004 21:26:57 GMT, Don Bruder wrote:

Because of the voltages involved (usually quite low) and the resistance
value of dry skin (usually very high) it's *VERY* difficult, bordering
on impossible, to electrocute yourself with a welder unless you're doing
something incredibly stupid - like clamping the ground lead to your
foot, peeing on it, and sucking on the end of the electrode. You *MIGHT*
take a small "poke" if you touch things just right, or are wet, but it's
EXTREMEMLY unlikely that it'll be anything more than a mild "Eep! Guess
I shouldn't have touched that!" tickle.

Or laying under a deck in an aluminum boat hull welding a bracket on the
back side of the steering winch.

While wearing only shorts and a leather apron on the front, on a very
hot day, a day so hot you are laying in a puddle of sweat.

It hurts with a Lincoln buzzbox.

Gunner

"A vote for Kerry is a de facto vote for bin Laden."
Strider

Oh my goodness what an image THAT conjures up - Gunner in shorts and a
leather apron - you're not a Mason are you g

Andrew

Thanks for the help, one more question. I don't have a 220v plug, is it
ok to just push the wires into the dryer plug I'm using (the breaker is
OFF) for now? Here's a pic (btw I made sure the breaker is definitely
off on this outlet, it has its own 30amp breaker).

http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w3.jpg

once I plug the wires into the socket, I'll turn the breaker on and not
go near the outlet while it's on (it's in the laundry room).

Also I'm 95% sure of this, but the white and black wires don't go in any
particular side right?

Thanks

Michael Shaffer wrote:
Ok this is my first time using a welder, does this look well setup? I'm
going to be wearing jeans, sneakers and leather gloves as well. I'm just
paranoid about being electrocuted.

http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w1.jpg
http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w2.jpg

In that picture the wires aren't connected, they're just sitting in
front of the plug.. I haven't plugged them in yet. I guess I'll go get a
plug now. I wonder if Sears sells them.


Don Bruder wrote:
In article Fwymc.25122$Z%5.7171@okepread01,
Michael Shaffer wrote:


Thanks for the help, one more question. I don't have a 220v plug, is it
ok to just push the wires into the dryer plug I'm using (the breaker is
OFF) for now?


Not just "no", or even "NO!", or even "*NO!!!*", but "**** NO, YOU CRAZY
SONUVVABITCH!!!!!"

Does that get the message across clearly enough?

Get to the hardware store or welding supply, and get a proper plug.
Then, since it's quite clear (by virtue of the fact that you needed to
ask the question at all - if you had any idea what's involved, you would
have already known the answer without needing to ask) that you have *NO
CLUE* what you're doing in that area, hire somebody to install it
properly for you. Unlike the welder, that sort of screwing around *CAN*
get you killed. What I see in the picture is a fire and/or electrocution
just waiting for a chance to happen. Never mind the lack of any
grounding, which may leave the welder's case electrically "hot" enough
to fry you crispy the first time you turn it on.

The wire came with the welder (on ebay) so I thought it was ok, I guess
I'll just install an outlet in my garage, I have one extra 220v slot
left in my breaker panel.

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Fri, 07 May 2004 05:56:29 -0400, Michael Shaffer
wrote:


Thanks for the help, one more question. I don't have a 220v plug, is it
ok to just push the wires into the dryer plug I'm using (the breaker is
OFF) for now? Here's a pic (btw I made sure the breaker is definitely
off on this outlet, it has its own 30amp breaker).

http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w3.jpg

once I plug the wires into the socket, I'll turn the breaker on and not
go near the outlet while it's on (it's in the laundry room).


You already agreed to go get and use a plug elsewhere, so I'll
ignore that gross safety violation. ;-)


Also I'm 95% sure of this, but the white and black wires don't go in any
particular side right?


If you are using 2 conductor (+ground) Romex for 220V power, the
white is considered as a black, and treated as one, Just like if you
are using Romex inside the walls of a house, put black or colored tape
over the white wire where it is exposed at both ends where you
stripped the sheath back, as a reminder that it is not a neutral.
Same thing for 3-wire extension cords used for straight 220V.

The power wires can go in either order, as long as the bare Ground
wire goes on the L-shaped ground pin.

Oh, and Yellow sheath Romex is only 12-gauge, rated for 20 Amps.
Dryer plugs are 30 amps. (Busted by your own photos! ;-) If something
goes wrong the wire can melt & catch fire before the 30A breaker pops.

You can use this setup for a few days, but you really do need to make
a proper extension cord for your welder using 10-gauge SO flexible
cord, or put in a permanent outlet in the garage just for your welder.

Use 6-4 Romex (or #6 wire inside conduit) for the new receptacle, so
you can easily convert it to a 50A 120/240V circuit when you decide
you need a bigger welder, or a plasma cutter, or...

-- Bruce --

Thanks for all the info, I didn't know you needed that much protection.

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

On Fri, 07 May 2004 06:20:33 -0400, Michael Shaffer
wrote:


In that picture the wires aren't connected, they're just sitting in
front of the plug.. I haven't plugged them in yet. I guess I'll go get a
plug now. I wonder if Sears sells them.


If they don't have those plugs at Sears, Lowe's, OSH, Home Depot and
most well-stocked True Value Hardware dealers will.

Did you get the message about protective gear yet? Haven't seen you
say anything about it anywhere... At a BARE minimum, you need:

A welder's smock - blue canvas fabric shirt with long leather sleeves,
buttoned all the way to the top to keep from getting a sunburned
Adam's Apple...
Good lined leather welding gloves.
Blue Jeans in good condition, bloused over boots.
Leather Upper "garage oxford" high-top shoes or some variety of boots,
preferably no laces or buckles.

A water source - a quart spray bottle of clean water (Recycled Windex
squirter), clean water in a 2-gallon pump-up garden sprayer, or a
charged garden hose with a trigger nozzle nearby, and a 1A-10B-C
Minimum rated dry-chemical fire extinguisher as a backup. Things will
catch on fire when you weld, you need a way to put them out handy.
Try the water first, the extinguisher powder makes a huge mess.

Other things that are nice to have, or get soon:

A steel topped work table, or a bunch of fire-bricks to spread out on
top of your wood table. Heck, make your first real welding project
building yourself a proper welding table out of angle iron or square
tubing with a sheet of 1/8" steel plate for the top.

(You really need to get away from wood, or one of these days you'll
look up to find your work area on fire...)

An automatic darkening welder's hood - keeps both hands free to do
welding (as compared to that "Masquerade Mask on a Stick" that came
with the welder), and you can see the work before you strike the arc.
Do NOT get the "$20 Special" at Harbor Freight when it comes to auto
hoods!! You only get two eyes, no replacements are available if you
get flashed by a faulty hood. Spend $100 for a nice one on special,
and you'll never go back to the old head-bobbing hoods or your stick
mask.

Leather Apron with Chaps - deflects the worst of the slag, keeps your
blue jeans from getting holes burned in them

A 4" angle grinder, a few grinding wheels and a wire brush for it -
you will need to clean the metal before you weld, and grind some of
the welds off to clean up when you are done.

-- Bruce --

Being incredibly cheap, I would stop by the Goodwill or other thrift
store and see what they have in connectors. I am assuming that the
welder uses 240 volts, so a dryer receptacle and plug would work.

I much prefer a helmet that fits on the head and kind of wraps around
the face a bit. I have not used a hand held eye filter, but would
think it would be awkward. I like to have one hand free to hold
things in place sometimes. Regular welding gloves are a good thing.
They have some extra thickness to protect from heat and they have long
cuffs so there is no exposed skin between the cuffs on your shirt and
the gloves.

You can weld on top of plywood, but you would be better off if you
can get some steel from a scrap yard. The plywood won't catch on fire
easily, but will char.

Synthetic fiber is not a good idea. It melts and sticks to the skin.
It could also catch fire and be really unpleasant. Sneakers aren't
the best either. But I have to admit the last time I welded, I was
wearing low cut boots that were not laced up and tied. And I got a
few small hot bits inside the boots.
Not a real problem, but not good for the socks.

So don't get too paranoid. But don't have any exposed wires on the
house side of the welder. Do have the welder grounded. The other
side is not dangerous provided you don't work where it is wet or have
any sharp edges that can get thru the skin. I can't remember getting
shocked while welding ( except for the high voltage on a TIG welder.
That is high frequency so not very dangerous ).

Dan


Michael Shaffer wrote in message news:Ocxmc.24914$Z%5.7831@okepread01...
Ok this is my first time using a welder, does this look well setup? I'm
going to be wearing jeans, sneakers and leather gloves as well. I'm just
paranoid about being electrocuted.

http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w1.jpg
http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/w2.jpg

On Fri, 07 May 2004 19:31:58 -0400, Michael Shaffer
wrote:

On the highest resolution setting:

http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/p1.jpg
http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/p2.jpg
http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/p3.jpg

(And p2 is actually in focus - Shocking! ;-)

Congratulations! It's a baby I-T-E Pushmatic. I-T-E is currently
owned by Siemens and is still in limited production, though anything
you want is probably going to be special-order from warehouse stocks.
Breakers are still available, but they are getting expensive for
standard single-pole 15A and 20A sizes, and seriously expensive for
the 2-pole and larger sizes.

They do have duplex breakers available for the 15A and 20A sizes so
you can get a few more circuits in there, but it's well past due to
turn the house off for one day and swap the whole panel out.

Use a modern Crouse Hinds/Murray/Siemens or Cutler-Hammer/
Challenger panel, and replacement breakers will be $5 each instead of
$50. (Stay away from proprietary designs like Square-D or GE, in a
few years you'll be back in the same boat.)

Oh and don't worry, there's no way I'm touching any of that ****.

Calling a licensed electrician will be money well spent - plus,
you'll have room to remove that fused switch for the water heater on
the left, and give it a breaker. (Don't look at me, from that picture
I can tell you're nowhere near Los Angeles. We don't use SE Cable out
here, and basements are rare.)

Oh, and I hope there's a Main Disconnect (fused switch or circuit
breaker) out at the meter, cause there isn't one here... (You can get
away without a main, but only if there are six breaker poles/fuses or
less. That panel is a 14-28.)

-- Bruce --

IIRC current NEC requires breaker maker must be the same
as panel maker. No more mix and match different production.

Licensed electrician will not touch a panel with mixed breakers.
At least according to my father-in-law a long-term industrial
electrician.

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 May 2004 19:31:58 -0400, Michael Shaffer
wrote:

On the highest resolution setting:

http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/p1.jpg
http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/p2.jpg
http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/p3.jpg

(And p2 is actually in focus - Shocking! ;-)

Congratulations! It's a baby I-T-E Pushmatic. I-T-E is currently
owned by Siemens and is still in limited production, though anything
you want is probably going to be special-order from warehouse stocks.
Breakers are still available, but they are getting expensive for
standard single-pole 15A and 20A sizes, and seriously expensive for
the 2-pole and larger sizes.

They do have duplex breakers available for the 15A and 20A sizes so
you can get a few more circuits in there, but it's well past due to
turn the house off for one day and swap the whole panel out.

Use a modern Crouse Hinds/Murray/Siemens or Cutler-Hammer/
Challenger panel, and replacement breakers will be $5 each instead of
$50. (Stay away from proprietary designs like Square-D or GE, in a
few years you'll be back in the same boat.)

Oh and don't worry, there's no way I'm touching any of that ****.

Calling a licensed electrician will be money well spent - plus,
you'll have room to remove that fused switch for the water heater on
the left, and give it a breaker. (Don't look at me, from that picture
I can tell you're nowhere near Los Angeles. We don't use SE Cable out
here, and basements are rare.)

Oh, and I hope there's a Main Disconnect (fused switch or circuit
breaker) out at the meter, cause there isn't one here... (You can get
away without a main, but only if there are six breaker poles/fuses or
less. That panel is a 14-28.)

-- Bruce --

On the highest resolution setting:

http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/p1.jpg
http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/p2.jpg
http://members.cox.net/michaelshaffer/p3.jpg

Oh and don't worry, there's no way I'm touching any of that ****.


Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Fri, 07 May 2004 08:56:21 -0400, Michael Shaffer
wrote:


The wire came with the welder (on ebay) so I thought it was ok, I guess
I'll just install an outlet in my garage, I have one extra 220v slot
left in my breaker panel.


Take a close-up picture of the breaker section of your main panel.
and another of the instruction label inside the lid (especially the
diagram of the breaker connections) if it's still there - and make
sure it's in focus this time, guy... ;-P

(Look for a "Close-up" setting on the auto-focus, often the symbol
of a flower. Or figure out how to focus manually. RTFM.)

You may be able to use thin breakers (2 breakers inside a single 1"
wide body) or Quad breakers (4 poles in a 2" body) and make more room.

-- Bruce --

On Fri, 7 May 2004 16:28:52 -0700, "frank" wrote:

IIRC current NEC requires breaker maker must be the same
as panel maker. No more mix and match different production.

Licensed electrician will not touch a panel with mixed breakers.
At least according to my father-in-law a long-term industrial
electrician.

Well, around here a Building Inspector will not sign off on a permit
unless the breakers are approved for use in the panel. There are a
few special cases where a major manufacturer makes a tested breaker
for use in a rival panel.

When a maker gets bought out (like Siemens bought I-T-E,
Crouse-Hinds & Murray) they can mark the new breakers as Siemens to
reflect the ownership change, but the new "Pushmatic" breakers still
carry the old brand names, are still the same design, and are
acceptable to use in old I-T-E panels.

When we find mixed breakers that don't belong in that can, we simply
swap them out as needed. Not too expensive.

Where it gets expensive is when some dope modifies something.
Example: Chopping off part of the tinned aluminum busbar stab in a
SquareD "Homeline" panel with side-cutters, so they can make a Murray
or Challenger breaker work on them. You have to replace the whole
busbar "guts" of the panel, or it will go bad and burn up - the
aluminum oxidizes like crazy where exposed, and the cancer soon runs
under the tinning.

In the case of third party equipment, for example Milbank or Unicorn
meter pedestals for running irrigation clocks and streetlights, the
panels are often tested and marked as approved for use with several
different brands of breakers - the pedestal maker is independent and
does not make breakers.

Why is Common Sense so uncommon? ;-P

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

On Sat, 08 May 2004 06:36:28 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

In the case of third party equipment, for example Milbank or Unicorn
meter pedestals for running irrigation clocks and streetlights, the
panels are often tested and marked as approved for use with several
different brands of breakers - the pedestal maker is independent and
does not make breakers.

I put in a Unicorn meter /disconnect pedistal on the edge of my
property line to make it easier for the meter readers. It has a mix of
approved breakers.

Gunner

That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there.
- George Orwell