I am wanting to have built or to build a pole barn garage about 30x30.
I have been working the ground with a power tiller and a tractor. It
is alot more level than it was but still has some low spots. Is there
a good way to ensure this is level?

Is there anything out there not too expensive that I could make or buy
that would help me get this as level as possible? (Short of buying a
200 buck transit). WOuld a laser level on a pole work?

Also, would it be good to put down gravel before poles or anything go
up? (Not sure if I can afford concrete or not yet. Looks like the
gravel first would provide some protection for the poles when they go
up if it rained on the bare dirt which would cause mud splashing up on
them.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Use a garden hose or tow or three coupled together, then put a couple foot
of clear poly tubing on both ends. Suspend the ends a couple foot up, fill
it with enough water to level off a few inches into the clear tube. What you
have now is a level line and a pretty in-expensive device. I have used it
many times for fences and such, works great!!

Roger in Abilene.



"Don" wrote in message
...
I am wanting to have built or to build a pole barn garage about 30x30.
I have been working the ground with a power tiller and a tractor. It
is alot more level than it was but still has some low spots. Is there
a good way to ensure this is level?

Is there anything out there not too expensive that I could make or buy
that would help me get this as level as possible? (Short of buying a
200 buck transit). WOuld a laser level on a pole work?

Also, would it be good to put down gravel before poles or anything go
up? (Not sure if I can afford concrete or not yet. Looks like the
gravel first would provide some protection for the poles when they go
up if it rained on the bare dirt which would cause mud splashing up on
them.

Any help is greatly appreciated!


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 3/5/2004

In rec.crafts.metalworking Don wrote:
I am wanting to have built or to build a pole barn garage about 30x30.
I have been working the ground with a power tiller and a tractor. It
is alot more level than it was but still has some low spots. Is there
a good way to ensure this is level?

Is there anything out there not too expensive that I could make or buy
that would help me get this as level as possible? (Short of buying a
200 buck transit). WOuld a laser level on a pole work?

A floodlight, on a small pole can be handy in revealing low-spots.
Best results at night.
Laser level can also be useful for fine-tuning.

TO LEVEL--Get 50 ft of 1/2" clear plastic tubing--Fill tubing with
water--NO AIR BUBBLES !! attach one end to a post or stake so that the
top is 5 or 6 ft high
let out about a foot of water from each end of hose--It's easier with a
friend to help,
but you can place the ends of the tubing along side each other and mark
each one
where the water level is--also mark post for reference--need to check back
to post
occasionally as water/hose expands with temperature rise--may have to
slide your
reference end to line up with original mark ..
Don wrote:

I am wanting to have built or to build a pole barn garage about 30x30.
I have been working the ground with a power tiller and a tractor. It
is alot more level than it was but still has some low spots. Is there
a good way to ensure this is level?

Is there anything out there not too expensive that I could make or buy
that would help me get this as level as possible? (Short of buying a
200 buck transit). WOuld a laser level on a pole work?

Also, would it be good to put down gravel before poles or anything go
up? (Not sure if I can afford concrete or not yet. Looks like the
gravel first would provide some protection for the poles when they go
up if it rained on the bare dirt which would cause mud splashing up on
them.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Don, I like to use a box blade and a drag. The drag can be a simple "I"
beam a few feet wider than the box blade. As you drive around in circles
and figure 8's, set the box blade to just cut off the tops of any mounds.
Attach the "I" beam to the back of the box blade with 2 pieces of chain so
the it rides with two edges down. This will smooth out any gouges made by
the box blade. As you notice a high or low spot, drive across the high
spot towards the low. This should scrap some dirt from the mound and drop
it into the low spot. May have to play with the height of the box blade at
this point.
This should get you pretty flat. For level, the cheapest thing would be
a water level. Two, one foot pieces of clear tubing attached to the ends of
a garden hose. Inconvenient, but accurate
Or you could do what the Egyptians did, dig a shallow ditch around and
across your lot. Then fill it with water.



"Don" wrote in message
...
I am wanting to have built or to build a pole barn garage about 30x30.
I have been working the ground with a power tiller and a tractor. It
is alot more level than it was but still has some low spots. Is there
a good way to ensure this is level?

Is there anything out there not too expensive that I could make or buy
that would help me get this as level as possible? (Short of buying a
200 buck transit). WOuld a laser level on a pole work?

Also, would it be good to put down gravel before poles or anything go
up? (Not sure if I can afford concrete or not yet. Looks like the
gravel first would provide some protection for the poles when they go
up if it rained on the bare dirt which would cause mud splashing up on
them.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Is there
a good way to ensure this is level?

A tractor and a box blade moves the dirt.

A water level is probably the cheapest way to go for the leveling instrument.
Just make sure you get all of the bubbles out before you use it.
Gary Brady
Austin, TX

Go down to Home Depot and get yourself a $1.98 string level. Stretch string
tight across your pad. Hang level on string per instructions and adjust
string accordingly.

Subject: How to make a lot level
From: (Don)
Date: 19/04/04 18:59 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:

I am wanting to have built or to build a pole barn garage about 30x30.
I have been working the ground with a power tiller and a tractor. It
is alot more level than it was but still has some low spots. Is there
a good way to ensure this is level?

Is there anything out there not too expensive that I could make or buy
that would help me get this as level as possible? (Short of buying a
200 buck transit). WOuld a laser level on a pole work?

Also, would it be good to put down gravel before poles or anything go
up? (Not sure if I can afford concrete or not yet. Looks like the
gravel first would provide some protection for the poles when they go
up if it rained on the bare dirt which would cause mud splashing up on
them.

There is nothing more accurate than a length of clear plastic tube filled with
water which will indicate a true level to basically infinite accuracy.


Dave Baker - Puma Race Engines (www.pumaracing.co.uk)
I'm not at all sure why women like men. We're argumentative, childish,
unsociable and extremely unappealing naked. I'm quite grateful they do though.

the laser levels are really cheap these days. Prices start ar $4
on sale.

This one is $25, comes with a nice tripod and will give you
accruacy in the 1/4" range for your project. Use a yard stick or
just a story pole with a mark on it.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=90693

Don wrote:

I am wanting to have built or to build a pole barn garage about 30x30.
I have been working the ground with a power tiller and a tractor. It
is alot more level than it was but still has some low spots. Is there
a good way to ensure this is level?

Is there anything out there not too expensive that I could make or buy
that would help me get this as level as possible? (Short of buying a
200 buck transit). WOuld a laser level on a pole work?

Also, would it be good to put down gravel before poles or anything go
up? (Not sure if I can afford concrete or not yet. Looks like the
gravel first would provide some protection for the poles when they go
up if it rained on the bare dirt which would cause mud splashing up on
them.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

In , on 04/19/04
at 07:58 PM, a (Dave Baker) said:

Subject: How to make a lot level
From: (Don)
Date: 19/04/04 18:59 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:
There is nothing more accurate than a length of clear plastic tube filled
with water which will indicate a true level to basically infinite
accuracy.

Stick some ink in the water, & screw a plastic ruler to each of the posts
the ends of the tube are fixed to - even works round corners!



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Lloyd - Cymru/Wales

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Get yourself an electronic water level made by Zircon if you can afford it.
It is less than $30, and puts out a tone when you reach the level point,
even around blind corners, as long as you can hear it. This is one of the
handiest tools I own, and it's a one man usage device. No more begging for
help.

RJ

--
"You're just jealous because the voices are talking to me, instead of you."


wrote in message
ernet.com...
In , on 04/19/04
at 07:58 PM, a (Dave Baker) said:

Subject: How to make a lot level
From: (Don)
Date: 19/04/04 18:59 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:
There is nothing more accurate than a length of clear plastic tube filled
with water which will indicate a true level to basically infinite
accuracy.

Stick some ink in the water, & screw a plastic ruler to each of the posts
the ends of the tube are fixed to - even works round corners!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------
John Lloyd - Cymru/Wales

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------

Don wrote:
I am wanting to have built or to build a pole barn garage about 30x30.
I have been working the ground with a power tiller and a tractor. It
is alot more level than it was but still has some low spots. Is there
a good way to ensure this is level?

Is there anything out there not too expensive that I could make or buy
that would help me get this as level as possible? (Short of buying a
200 buck transit). WOuld a laser level on a pole work?

Also, would it be good to put down gravel before poles or anything go
up? (Not sure if I can afford concrete or not yet. Looks like the
gravel first would provide some protection for the poles when they go
up if it rained on the bare dirt which would cause mud splashing up on
them.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

You can rent a laser level from Home Depot for a reasonable sum. I always
found water levels to be a pain in the ass.

Two words ......... water level .................

Easy

Cheap

VERY accurate, even at long distances.

Steve

On 19 Apr 2004 10:59:08 -0700, (Don)
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

A warning with all water levels. You must not have any air bubbles in
the line. It can stuff everything up. The same goes for any rises and
falls in the line, as these will probably create air bubbles.

Such is my experience. I had wrong readings because of air bubbles.

I _believe that if the air bubble occurs _and the water levels are
already exactly equal, and you don't alter anything_ then you are OK.
Any change with an air bubble and you will get wrong readings.

IME.

As far as the actual levelling goes, depends what you have. I have
done them with shovels and string lines, working in smaller squares to
keep the scale down to size. I also use a scrape stick once I am close
to get larger areas of flat.

But I would use a compactor very thorougly, then re-level, then
recompact, expecially if you are going to cement/brick/pave afterward.
Also remember that string lines stretch and sag. They need to be
_tight_..did I say _tight_? The better the job, the less cement you
need.

My FIL was a commercial grano worker, and used shovels, but had a
dumpy level and used to place a perimeter of oregon planks , with
spikes in the ground every 2 metres' square or so, and work around
those. The spikes were very accurate (woe betide any poor ******* that
kicked one! DAMHIKT) and stuck up the expected depth of the cement,
say 100mm. When they laid the cement, they would simply work to the
top of the grid of spikes.

The box grader is a good idea, but takes some skill to get really
nice. I would still be finishing with a shovel.

And compact compact compact. This will increase your workload, but you
will not regret it.

My dream is to have a layout that allows a really heavy bar or some
such to be dragged across the top of levelled rails either side,
simply levelling, then comnpacting and filling any missed bits, then
again, and again, maybe working in strips. I have about 4 big pads to
do at least, where I am, so it may be worth my while.
************************************************** **
I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got
us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry
.........no I'm not.

"Old Nick" wrote: (clip)I _believe that if the air bubble occurs _and the
water levels are already exactly equal, and you don't alter anything_ then
you are OK. Any change with an air bubble and you will get wrong readings.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The water hose is essentially a U-tube, in which the water levels are
PRESUMED to be at the same level in both legs. Obviously, if there is air
on one side, the weight of water required to match the other leg will stand
higher in that leg, introducing an error. The best way to make sure this
doesn't happen is to bring both legs together and see that the levels match.
To be doubly sure, raise the ends of the hose, so any air rises and escapes.
Once this is done, there is no way for air to get in, and the system should
be accurate, no matter how you drag the hose, or whether it goes over bumps
or low spots.

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 18:24:32 GMT, "Roger Jensen"
wrote:

Use a garden hose or tow or three coupled together, then put a couple foot
of clear poly tubing on both ends. Suspend the ends a couple foot up, fill
it with enough water to level off a few inches into the clear tube. What you
have now is a level line and a pretty in-expensive device. I have used it
many times for fences and such, works great!!

Roger in Abilene.

Works great! with mobile homes and similar also.

Gunner




"Don" wrote in message
m...
I am wanting to have built or to build a pole barn garage about 30x30.
I have been working the ground with a power tiller and a tractor. It
is alot more level than it was but still has some low spots. Is there
a good way to ensure this is level?

Is there anything out there not too expensive that I could make or buy
that would help me get this as level as possible? (Short of buying a
200 buck transit). WOuld a laser level on a pole work?

Also, would it be good to put down gravel before poles or anything go
up? (Not sure if I can afford concrete or not yet. Looks like the
gravel first would provide some protection for the poles when they go
up if it rained on the bare dirt which would cause mud splashing up on
them.

Any help is greatly appreciated!


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 3/5/2004


"A vote for Kerry is a de facto vote for bin Laden."
Strider

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 15:41:30 -0400, "C.M.German"
wrote:

Go down to Home Depot and get yourself a $1.98 string level. Stretch string
tight across your pad. Hang level on string per instructions and adjust
string accordingly.


Agreed except maybe two of them. I'd run at least two strings
perpendicular to each other ie- north/south and east/west such that
they intersect in the middle of the pad site -or- perhaps to get more
accurate run 6 strings such that you could run say 2 north/south along
the edges of the pad site and one in the middle and then do the same
thing in the east/west direction.

"StveB" wrote in message news:Do1hc.65237$U83.2385@fed1read03...
Two words ......... water level .................

Easy

Cheap

VERY accurate, even at long distances.

Steve

I've been checking this thread watching for another warning in
addition to the bubble problem. ALL parts of the water level must be
at the same temperature. Half in shade and half in sun can also throw
your marks off. At the cheap price of lazer levels today, I would
spring for one if I didn't already have one for this project. A lot
less dick around. One set-up and a marked stage pole is all it takes.
I use water levels myself expecially when going around corners but...

Harry K

Please explain why.


"Harry K" wrote in message
om...
"StveB" wrote in message
news:Do1hc.65237$U83.2385@fed1read03...

I've been checking this thread watching for another warning in
addition to the bubble problem. ALL parts of the water level must be
at the same temperature. Half in shade and half in sun can also throw
your marks off.
Harry K

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 06:35:02 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Point taken. I was being cautious. It's hard to get sure that there is
no air in 15 metres of hose, though, by raising the ends up till there
are no folds G

Clear tubing is the safest. I saw a couple of mentions of garden hose.

Once this is done, there is no way for air to get in, and the system should
be accurate, no matter how you drag the hose, or whether it goes over bumps
or low spots.



************************************************** **
I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got
us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry
.........no I'm not.

On 19 Apr 2004 10:59:08 -0700, (Don)
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Wot you workin it for? Just let them car tyres dig it up as they slide
across! G

Hope I got the same Don....

I am wanting to have built or to build a pole barn garage about 30x30.
I have been working the ground with a power tiller and a tractor. It
is alot more level than it was but still has some low spots. Is there
a good way to ensure this is level?

************************************************** **
I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got
us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry
.........no I'm not.

Harry K wrote:

"StveB" wrote in message news:Do1hc.65237$U83.2385@fed1read03...

Two words ......... water level .................

Easy

Cheap

VERY accurate, even at long distances.

Steve


I've been checking this thread watching for another warning in
addition to the bubble problem. ALL parts of the water level must be
at the same temperature. Half in shade and half in sun can also throw
your marks off. At the cheap price of lazer levels today, I would
spring for one if I didn't already have one for this project. A lot
less dick around. One set-up and a marked stage pole is all it takes.
I use water levels myself expecially when going around corners but...

Harry K
Interesting how a question about leveling a lot turns into a debate
about the merits of a water lever! - damn Engineers! I recently bought a
Porter Cable self-leveling laser for $100. It is great for projects like
this. I use it mostly, however, when investigating settlement and sags
in houses. Best $100 I ever spent. I may go for one that continuously
spins next time.

Rob Munach, PE

wrote:

Go down to Home Depot and get yourself a $1.98 string level. Stretch
string
tight across your pad. Hang level on string per instructions and adjust
string accordingly.


Good idea except for one thing ............. A string line with a level on
it sags after a short distance ..................

Steve

Nothing you'll ever notice in a 30' pad with a 6 foot rule......... and a
tightly stretched line. How many houses do you suppose are set out this
way?

Always place a line level in the MIDDLE of a string. That way the slope
is the same on both ends.

SteveB wrote:
wrote:


Go down to Home Depot and get yourself a $1.98 string level. Stretch

string

tight across your pad. Hang level on string per instructions and adjust
string accordingly.



Good idea except for one thing ............. A string line with a level on
it sags after a short distance ..................

Steve



--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

On 19 Apr 2004 10:59:08 -0700, (Don) wrote:

I am wanting to have built or to build a pole barn garage about 30x30.
I have been working the ground with a power tiller and a tractor. It
is alot more level than it was but still has some low spots. Is there
a good way to ensure this is level?

Is there anything out there not too expensive that I could make or buy
that would help me get this as level as possible? (Short of buying a
200 buck transit). WOuld a laser level on a pole work?

Also, would it be good to put down gravel before poles or anything go
up? (Not sure if I can afford concrete or not yet. Looks like the
gravel first would provide some protection for the poles when they go
up if it rained on the bare dirt which would cause mud splashing up on
them.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

This is how I make a water level. Get 3/4" brass fittings like your
going to replace the ends on a hose and put them together with a new
rubber seal. Get an extra male one and drill a hole on the side next
to the bottom of a plastic 5 gal. bucket and epoxy it so the barbs are
pointing out. Get about 3' of clear hose and cut it in half then
connect to the fittings and then to the bucket after the epoxy is set.
Use only good hose between the fittings to extend it.

To set it up , elevate the bucket on something that won't move and lay
out the hose as straight as possible and hang up the end above the
bucket. Fill the bucket all the way up and look at the water. If it is
cloudy from very small air bubbles drop the end and force water
through the hose and hang it back up. Fill the bucket back up and wait
till the water is clear then drop the end as low as possible till it
has all new water in it. If the water was clear then dropping the end
and forcing water down the line will do , but always run new water
through it just from gravity to make sure the big bubbles are out.

To use it , mark the hose so that you use the same part of the hose.
For example if you use different parts of the hose you'll be changing
the level by a couple of ounces. Hold the hose up against a wall ,
stake, pole , ect. and stop the water from bouncing with your finger
on the end at the proper times. Then mark everything to where ever the
water is. Measure up or down from those marks or use a stick to
transfer while your leveling which is the PITA way.

Do not step on the hose, kink it , coil it up , leave you finger on
the end, move the bucket , or let the water evaporate. I don't like
the two person method. One chases and the other marks and you have to
trust the other person. I've had all kinds of problems that way from
co-workers dicking with ya , dropping the hose, ahhh that's close
enough while its still bouncing , forgetting to take their finger off
the end , ect... Double check the first mark when your done and do it
all at once. In the summer if you take your time bubbles will form
from the heat. Speed is your friend , no stopping. Set up all your
marking spots before you set the level up.

Wow , this is a pain to explain something so simple. I do it all the
time if anyone has a question. Works great for all kinds of things
like cutting the tops off the poles. The roof of my shop was done
that way and it only slopes about 2" in 15' by design.

I wonder if things like the bases of pyramids and tops of aqueducts
are curved like the earth or straight. Off hand I would think they
would have to have optics to get it straight. Bet they are curved.
Even line segments would be interesting. Things that make me go
hmmm... Structures should be straight and aqueducts curved. Then again
suspension bridge towers wouldn't be parallel. Anyone know off hand
what one degree would be in miles at sea level? That's one of my
favorite curves to view , at the beach.

Sunworshiper wrote:


I wonder if things like the bases of pyramids and tops of aqueducts
are curved like the earth or straight. Off hand I would think they
would have to have optics to get it straight. Bet they are curved.
Even line segments would be interesting. Things that make me go
hmmm... Structures should be straight and aqueducts curved. Then again
suspension bridge towers wouldn't be parallel.

This was just being discussed over in one of the
misc.transport.rail.americas
The Verazano Narrows bridge between Statin Island and Brooklyn has
towers the are about 2 inches further apart at the top then the bottom
because of the earth curvature.

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:30:55 -0400, Glenn Ashmore
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Always place a line level in the MIDDLE of a string. That way the slope
is the same on both ends.

Agreed, and important, but oft forgot (DAMHIKT!)

But the _height_ is not necessarily there if you then take another
"level" from the middle of the string.
************************************************** **
I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got
us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry
.........no I'm not.

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:40:16 GMT, Rob Munach
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Gee! When I had my settlement investigated, the lawyer only read the
first _page_ for $100! ..........oh.....sorry. G

A question if I may. How good are these things in sunlight over
distance? Are there staffs that have sensors, or is this not needed?
As usual we are way behind you guys in pricing, so until very recently
these have been way out of range. They are starting to get there, and
I am certainly looking at one, but I am worried that economics and
laws about lazers may cause weak visual behaviour.

Thanks

Interesting how a question about leveling a lot turns into a debate
about the merits of a water lever! - damn Engineers! I recently bought a
Porter Cable self-leveling laser for $100. It is great for projects like
this. I use it mostly, however, when investigating settlement and sags
in houses. Best $100 I ever spent. I may go for one that continuously
spins next time.

Rob Munach, PE

************************************************** **
I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got
us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry
.........no I'm not.

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:32:52 -0500, jerry Wass
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Years ago I actually made and used a "water level" It used plastic
tube, on a piece of aluminium square about a meter long. The tube
stood up at both ends and was filled with water with ink on it. I had
it on a tripod. You could sight along the water levels and get
surprisingly accurate results. Sort of a bubble level in reverse! G

TO LEVEL--Get 50 ft of 1/2" clear plastic tubing--Fill tubing with
water--NO AIR BUBBLES !! attach one end to a post or stake so that the

************************************************** **
I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got
us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry
.........no I'm not.

Nothing you'll ever notice in a 30' pad with a 6 foot rule......... and a
tightly stretched line. How many houses do you suppose are set out this
way?


Not too many anymore - most are shot with a transit. And the ones
that were set with a line level could be shot with a transit and you
would see the error. They will get you "kinda close" but every time I
ever had to use a string level, I would always take several readings,
sliding the level back and forth to the same position, re-read, etc.
Most line levels are only about 2 or 3 inches long, and most are made
cheaply, and they are surely not something I would set a house with.
If a good transit is not available - the water hose would work,
although cumbersome.
Ken.

I would fathom a guess that hot water is "lighter" than cold water,
therefore if you had a 100' of hose, and one end of it is in 25' of
direct sunlite (and had been for a period of time) about 20 degrees
hotter, the colder water would push the hot water a little higher in
the tube... dunno ... never experimented ... If you initially held
the sight tubes side-by-side and leveled the water and marked the
tubes... then stretched out the 100' of hose (some in sunlight, some
not) and staked the sight tubed into the ground to measure from the
sight tube marks down to the dirt, I would imagine, after a period of
time, that it would be possible for the "hot" end to be higher than
the sight tube marking, while the other end may be a little below the
sight tube marking.
Ken.

Please explain why.


"Harry K" wrote in message
. com...
"StveB" wrote in message
news:Do1hc.65237$U83.2385@fed1read03...

I've been checking this thread watching for another warning in
addition to the bubble problem. ALL parts of the water level must be
at the same temperature. Half in shade and half in sun can also throw
your marks off.
Harry K

Old Nick wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:40:16 GMT, Rob Munach
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Gee! When I had my settlement investigated, the lawyer only read the
first _page_ for $100! ..........oh.....sorry. G

A question if I may. How good are these things in sunlight over
distance? Are there staffs that have sensors, or is this not needed?
As usual we are way behind you guys in pricing, so until very recently
these have been way out of range. They are starting to get there, and
I am certainly looking at one, but I am worried that economics and
laws about lazers may cause weak visual behaviour.

Thanks



I have not used it in bright sunlight yet - but I have heard that it can
affect it. Also, the beam isn't likely to be powerful enough to be seen
at a distance in bright sunlight. Hey, what do you want for $100?


Interesting how a question about leveling a lot turns into a debate
about the merits of a water lever! - damn Engineers! I recently bought a
Porter Cable self-leveling laser for $100. It is great for projects like
this. I use it mostly, however, when investigating settlement and sags
in houses. Best $100 I ever spent. I may go for one that continuously
spins next time.

Rob Munach, PE


************************************************** **
I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got
us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry
........no I'm not.
I

Hi Nick,
I bought one of these,
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....category=63 2
no connection, just happy with mine.
I can see it maybe 25 meters in sunlight using the red tinted glasses that
come with it. I just turn it on and walk about with a staff I made from a
tomato stake witn the blade out of a $2.50 tape measure nailed to it, it
works very well.

Just to prove the point Rob made about damn engineers, I don't trust water
levels because they level to a curve about the the same as the radius of the
earth, where a laser is flat. LOL

regards,

John

"Old Nick" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:40:16 GMT, Rob Munach
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Gee! When I had my settlement investigated, the lawyer only read the
first _page_ for $100! ..........oh.....sorry. G

A question if I may. How good are these things in sunlight over
distance? Are there staffs that have sensors, or is this not needed?
As usual we are way behind you guys in pricing, so until very recently
these have been way out of range. They are starting to get there, and
I am certainly looking at one, but I am worried that economics and
laws about lazers may cause weak visual behaviour.

Thanks

Interesting how a question about leveling a lot turns into a debate
about the merits of a water lever! - damn Engineers! I recently bought a
Porter Cable self-leveling laser for $100. It is great for projects like
this. I use it mostly, however, when investigating settlement and sags
in houses. Best $100 I ever spent. I may go for one that continuously
spins next time.

Rob Munach, PE

************************************************** **
I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got
us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry
........no I'm not.

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:37:10 +1000, "john johnson"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Hi Nick,
I bought one of these,
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....category=63 2
no connection, just happy with mine.

hmm. $Aud95!

Ok. I would still rather spend $300 and get a reasonable piece of gear
than $100 and get something that disappointsme.

Ok if I ask a few questions?

More to the point. Will you answer them? G

I have also just been out and fiddled about with my Class II pointer
G and may have some ideas.

(1) If you can make a shade for the staff, with both top and side
shields, you can significantly increase the visibility. You would need
to turn the staff so that the side shileds kept the sun off. There are
a couple of spots where this would not work, of course.

(2) 3M make reflective film. I have some red stuff. That really makes
the lazer point stand out. May even be a safety issue for a static
lazer.

I can see it maybe 25 meters in sunlight using the red tinted glasses that
come with it. I just turn it on and walk about with a staff I made from a
tomato stake witn the blade out of a $2.50 tape measure nailed to it, it
works very well.

I hate ebay....however, it certainly seems to be reasonable and if
it's OK up to 25m that's not bad!

So you are close to the staff, and can see the laser stripe on it, I
guess. I can see where that would work. I have a laser pointer, and in
sunlight I can't see the point if I am _at the laser_ and the beam is
more than 10 metres away. At night, I can see it against a wall 250 m
away!

I was assuming I was going to need to point, locate and mark. Of
course with a rotating bizzo, you can walk around and see the beam.

What rotation speed do you use? I am interested because I would assume
that the faster it turns, the quicker it wears.

Does it take rechargeables? What capacity and whow long does a set
last?

How do you set the thing level? Bubble? Auto?

Have you done an "back checking" on its levels to see how accurate it
is? By this I mean actually marking a level that it gives, then
marking its own level, placing it at the new level and seeing it sends
back to itself.

How big is the spot?

Just to prove the point Rob made about damn engineers, I don't trust water
levels because they level to a curve about the the same as the radius of the
earth, where a laser is flat. LOL

......with a "thin spot" in the middle of the "run"? G
************************************************** **
I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got
us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry
.........no I'm not.

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:26:54 GMT, Rob Munach
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Not much for $100. But then I didn't think we had stuff for $100! G
I see we do.

But I would hate something that simply did not work, or restricted me
badly. I would pay more to avoid that. I may not need to.

I have not used it in bright sunlight yet - but I have heard that it can
affect it. Also, the beam isn't likely to be powerful enough to be seen
at a distance in bright sunlight. Hey, what do you want for $100?

************************************************** **
I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got
us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry
.........no I'm not.

Hi Nick,
Reply below each question.
regards,

John

"Old Nick" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:37:10 +1000, "john johnson"
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Hi Nick,
I bought one of these,

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....744&category=6
32
no connection, just happy with mine.

hmm. $Aud95!

Ok. I would still rather spend $300 and get a reasonable piece of gear
than $100 and get something that disappointsme.

Ok if I ask a few questions?

More to the point. Will you answer them? G

I'll try!

I have also just been out and fiddled about with my Class II pointer
G and may have some ideas.

(1) If you can make a shade for the staff, with both top and side
shields, you can significantly increase the visibility. You would need
to turn the staff so that the side shileds kept the sun off. There are
a couple of spots where this would not work, of course.

(2) 3M make reflective film. I have some red stuff. That really makes
the lazer point stand out. May even be a safety issue for a static
lazer.

I can see it maybe 25 meters in sunlight using the red tinted glasses
that
come with it. I just turn it on and walk about with a staff I made from a
tomato stake witn the blade out of a $2.50 tape measure nailed to it, it
works very well.

I hate ebay....however, it certainly seems to be reasonable and if
it's OK up to 25m that's not bad!

I'll check it out again in the daylight tomorrow arvo, make sure I'm not
leading you astray.

So you are close to the staff, and can see the laser stripe on it, I
guess. I can see where that would work. I have a laser pointer, and in
sunlight I can't see the point if I am _at the laser_ and the beam is
more than 10 metres away. At night, I can see it against a wall 250 m
away!

I was assuming I was going to need to point, locate and mark. Of
course with a rotating bizzo, you can walk around and see the beam.

It's great, I have a little cowley automatic level, but it needs two people
to use it, this thing is easy by yourself.

What rotation speed do you use? I am interested because I would assume
that the faster it turns, the quicker it wears.


Rotation speed is adjustable, the faster you make it the duller it gets,
smaller range.
You can slow it down to less than a rotation per second, but it still wizzes
past pretty quick at 20M

As far as wear goes, the rotating bit is very light (no pun intended) and
lightly loaded
(and again) , I think it will out last me with the occasional use I will
give it. If you wanted to use one every day
I'd be spending a lot more on a professional model. I just bought it to map
my sloping yard, so I can work out where is the
best spot and shape for my new shed, then level the site and form work etc.

Does it take rechargeables? What capacity and whow long does a set
last?


It takes three AAA cells, I'm still using the set that came with it about
two months ago
but I haven't used it that much. You could put rechargeables in it, but it
comes with
alakaline batteries. The book says it will run for three hours on set of
batteries.
That would do a lot of leveling, because you can turn it off without
disturbing it.

How do you set the thing level? Bubble? Auto?

It has two vials, you adjust the screws underneath to get the bubbles
centered.
I found it a bit difficult to get the bubbles centered, the vials are very
sensitive, the screws are a little coarse.


Have you done an "back checking" on its levels to see how accurate it
is? By this I mean actually marking a level that it gives, then
marking its own level, placing it at the new level and seeing it sends
back to itself.

Yes, I ran a set of levels from one side of my yard to the other, marked the
level on few things across the yard,
then set it up on the opposite side of the yard and did it again. The error
was around 2.5mm across 20M of yard, I was impressed!
It's rated accuracy is +- 5mm over 10 M, so it was better than I thought it
would be.

While I had it there, I went back and readjusted the bubbles in the vials to
try and get some idea of the sensitivity, and
convinved myself that it would be repeatable to get this sort of accuracy.

One thing that worried me, and I haven't fully tested yet, was that the
laser has to be at 90 deg to the axis of rotation, or it will project a
shallow
cone rather than a flat disc. The test I did above came at the same marks
from different angles, not a straight line through them, so it did test this
a bit?

It's at least as accurate as letting my wife read the stall with the cowley
level! LOL

How big is the spot?

Close up it's about 2.5 mm, across the yard it grew to about 3.5 mm. Its not
really a problem though
as the edges are clearly defined and it's easy to judge the centre of the
dot.

Another thing, it has a bracket at 90 deg to it's base mounting, so you can
clamp it to things and use it to set up flat planes that aren't level.
I've used it to 'draw' some straight lines down a model A chassis I'm
working on.
It's better than a string line because it projects a plane rather than the
single line
of the string.

Just to prove the point Rob made about damn engineers, I don't trust
water
levels because they level to a curve about the the same as the radius of
the
earth, where a laser is flat. LOL

.....with a "thin spot" in the middle of the "run"? G
************************************************** **
I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got
us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry
........no I'm not.

Ken Sterling Ken Sterling wrote:

I would fathom a guess that hot water is "lighter" than cold water,

At temp T (F), it weighs about 62.46-0.01(T-68) lb/ft^3.

therefore if you had a 100' of hose, and one end of it is in 25' of
direct sunlite (and had been for a period of time) about 20 degrees hotter,
the colder water would push the hot water a little higher in the tube...

Imagine filling a 110 foot x 1 ft^2 hose filled with 100' of 68 F water.
The water weighs 100x62.46 = 6246 pounds. Now heat half of the water (3123
pounds of it) to 88 F. A cubic foot of the warmer water weighs about 62.26
pounds, so the warmer water now occupies 3123/62.26 = 50.1606 feet of hose,
ie the hose now contains 100.1606 feet of water.

Imagine hanging one end from the shady side of a 50 foot tall building at
68 F and hanging the other end from the sunny side around a corner. We might
see water column heights Hc and Hw, where Hc + Hw = 100.1606 feet, and
62.46Hc = 62.26Hw, which makes Hc = 0.9968Hw, so 1.9968Hw = 100.1606, and
Hw = 50.1606', and Hc = 50', and Hw - Hc = 0.1606 feet, or 1.927 inches.

If all the hose were on level ground, we wouldn't see any height difference,
although both heights would rise by 0.9636 inches, or more, if air bubbles
undissolved from the warmer water.

Nick

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:57:10 +1000, "john johnson"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Thanks for all of that! I will chew this one over. I may check out
more expensive models, and see what I am getting, or if there is a
"middle road" )some of them are a couple of grand!)

Talking of accuracy. When I have help my FIl lay out pads a couple of
times, using a dumpy, I used to get really ****ed off. I would tap in
a peg, and p8ut the staff on top and he'd say "down a tap" and we'd go
again..."up" (pull) "down" (tap) etc etc. We would have been talking
0.5 mm ? I have to suppose he worked to edges of the markings on the
staff! G

Mind you, I have never seen more level pads thatn that guy did. Scary.
When you wet them down after laying, and kept them wet, there was
_never_ a pool anywhere.

Hi Nick,
Reply below each question.
regards,

John

"Old Nick" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:37:10 +1000, "john johnson"
vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

************************************************** **
I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got
us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry
.........no I'm not.

Others have suggested the best cheap solution, a water level. I'll add one
more tip. If you need to take the level along a line, say, to check the level
of the pad out in the center, do it with a cheap laser. Any laser can work,
even a cheap laser pointer, as long as you can affix it securely.

The method is to aim the laser across the worksite at a convenient height. A
cheap laser level is handy because it has a tripod socket. The level the beam
using the water level. One end at the laser and the other end on the far side
of the worksite. Once the beam is level you can shoot vertical distances at
any point along the beam using a simple steel rule. Or even a string with a
mark at the laser impact point. Just touch the ground with the rule and
observe where the laser grazes it.

Most cheap lasers have too much beam spread to use the spot so use a grazing
contact, say, on the bottom of the beam. My rule is magnetic and I have a
cylindrical magnet that I can roll along the rule until the laser just barely
illuminates the edge.

John

On 19 Apr 2004 10:59:08 -0700, (Don) wrote:

I am wanting to have built or to build a pole barn garage about 30x30.
I have been working the ground with a power tiller and a tractor. It
is alot more level than it was but still has some low spots. Is there
a good way to ensure this is level?

Is there anything out there not too expensive that I could make or buy
that would help me get this as level as possible? (Short of buying a
200 buck transit). WOuld a laser level on a pole work?

---
John De Armond

http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN