Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #1   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
 
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Default Interview for a machine shop position

I just got back from an interview for a die making position (Which
really didn't seem like a die making position after I seen what they
did...more on that later) The shop manager looked at my resume and
said I had the basic knowledge of the machine shop trade. He said he
wants to hire an apprentice. He also said he wants someone to fit the
young profile that he is looking for. I thought to myself..."this guy
only wants cheap labor." All of this kinda ticked me off a little
because I've been a toolmaker for the past 6 years. During this time,
about 80% of my work has involved designing and making my own jigs,
fixtures and gages with no supervision whatsoever. And the tooling I
make usually needs to be highly precise. It's not a machinist type
position that I'm doing by no means.

Anyways...back to the "die making" position, I took a tour of their
shop. All that they had was a lathe, vertical mill, 2 surface
grinders, and 2 drill presses. It looked more like a maintenance shop
than a die shop. The shop is support for a manufacturing floor that has
a bunch of punch presses. I asked the die maker in the shop what kind
of work he did. He told me that he mainly repaired dies by sharpening
them. He seemed a bit upset because the company doesn't want to
purchase the equipment for die making. They have all of their dies
made from other machine shops. Is this really die making? I
mean...the shop manager was saying things about my toolmaking
experience as being useless. However, if I went to work for his
company, I seriously don't know if I'd ever actually do some precise
work or design any tools.

Alot of this message is me just venting (maybe you guys had a similar
situation that you want to share).

  #3   Report Post  
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Robin S.
 
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Default Interview for a machine shop position


wrote in message
oups.com...
Is this really die making?


I've gone to school with a number of guys from automotive production shops
which include stampers. It seems that production toolmaking typically pays
more than jobbing, but requires less skill and indeed less work.

I work for a jobber. We get paid less, we physically do more work, we're
constantly under tight deadlines BUT we learn a whole bunch more.

The toolrooms in production shops won't do anything beyond either doing
preventative maintenance on a die, or getting a *broken* die running
(hobbling) to complete a production run before they send it to the jobber to
be properly repaired. They will perform simple engineering changes which
basically means moving punches or adjusting trim/removing burrs.

In our line of work, all draw work and form work as well as significant
trim/pierce changes are done buy the jobber shops. The production shops
typically don't have the skill or the machines to complete that type of
task.

While I speak in generalities, there are some people who are willing to do
what we would consider an honest days work in a production shop. It's not
the norm, however.

YYMV.

Regards,

Robin


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Eric R Snow
 
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Default Interview for a machine shop position

On 17 May 2006 16:26:13 -0700, wrote:

I just got back from an interview for a die making position (Which
really didn't seem like a die making position after I seen what they
did...more on that later) The shop manager looked at my resume and
said I had the basic knowledge of the machine shop trade. He said he
wants to hire an apprentice. He also said he wants someone to fit the
young profile that he is looking for. I thought to myself..."this guy
only wants cheap labor." All of this kinda ticked me off a little
because I've been a toolmaker for the past 6 years. During this time,
about 80% of my work has involved designing and making my own jigs,
fixtures and gages with no supervision whatsoever. And the tooling I
make usually needs to be highly precise. It's not a machinist type
position that I'm doing by no means.

Anyways...back to the "die making" position, I took a tour of their
shop. All that they had was a lathe, vertical mill, 2 surface
grinders, and 2 drill presses. It looked more like a maintenance shop
than a die shop. The shop is support for a manufacturing floor that has
a bunch of punch presses. I asked the die maker in the shop what kind
of work he did. He told me that he mainly repaired dies by sharpening
them. He seemed a bit upset because the company doesn't want to
purchase the equipment for die making. They have all of their dies
made from other machine shops. Is this really die making? I
mean...the shop manager was saying things about my toolmaking
experience as being useless. However, if I went to work for his
company, I seriously don't know if I'd ever actually do some precise
work or design any tools.

Alot of this message is me just venting (maybe you guys had a similar
situation that you want to share).

Say Jody, I think your job for the last 6 years sounds like what a
machinist does. What am I missing here? I make all my own fixtures and
jigs. In fact I make everything in my shop without supervision since
I'm self employed. I work to tight tolerances for much of the work.
And I'm a machinist. Should I call myself a toolmaker?
Eric R Snow,
Machini, er, Toolmaker,
E T Precision Mach, er, hum, Toolmaking
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Jim Stewart
 
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Default Interview for a machine shop position

Dave Hinz wrote:

On 17 May 2006 16:26:13 -0700, wrote:


Alot of this message is me just venting (maybe you guys had a similar
situation that you want to share).



Go with your first instict, don't take it if offered. Been there, done
that, whish I had listened to my own advice.


What he said. Walk unless you really, really
need the money.




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Default Interview for a machine shop position



Say Jody, I think your job for the last 6 years sounds like what a
machinist does. What am I missing here? I make all my own fixtures and
jigs. In fact I make everything in my shop without supervision since
I'm self employed. I work to tight tolerances for much of the work.
And I'm a machinist. Should I call myself a toolmaker?
Eric R Snow,
Machini, er, Toolmaker,
E T Precision Mach, er, hum, Toolmaking


If you are self-employed, then you are more of a businessman than a
machinist.

So tell me your definition of a machinist and a toolmaker? I'm not
going to get in a battle of what a machinist does and what toolmaker
does. I know what I do is a step above a machinist. I don't do die
making. Therefore, I won't call myself a die maker. Same thing with
moldmaking....I won't call myself one because I don't do it. However,
I do make and design tools to hold production parts on the shop floor.
I don't sit behind a machine and make 5 of these parts or 50 of those
parts. I let the guys on the shop floor do that. Occassionally, we
may let businessmen like yourself make these parts if we get behind

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Randy Replogle
 
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Default Interview for a machine shop position

wrote:
I just got back from an interview for a die making position (Which
really didn't seem like a die making position after I seen what they
did...more on that later) The shop manager looked at my resume and
said I had the basic knowledge of the machine shop trade. He said he
wants to hire an apprentice. He also said he wants someone to fit the
young profile that he is looking for. I thought to myself..."this guy
only wants cheap labor." All of this kinda ticked me off a little
because I've been a toolmaker for the past 6 years. During this time,
about 80% of my work has involved designing and making my own jigs,
fixtures and gages with no supervision whatsoever. And the tooling I
make usually needs to be highly precise. It's not a machinist type
position that I'm doing by no means.

Anyways...back to the "die making" position, I took a tour of their
shop. All that they had was a lathe, vertical mill, 2 surface
grinders, and 2 drill presses. It looked more like a maintenance shop
than a die shop. The shop is support for a manufacturing floor that has
a bunch of punch presses. I asked the die maker in the shop what kind
of work he did. He told me that he mainly repaired dies by sharpening
them. He seemed a bit upset because the company doesn't want to
purchase the equipment for die making. They have all of their dies
made from other machine shops. Is this really die making? I
mean...the shop manager was saying things about my toolmaking
experience as being useless. However, if I went to work for his
company, I seriously don't know if I'd ever actually do some precise
work or design any tools.

Alot of this message is me just venting (maybe you guys had a similar
situation that you want to share).




Whatever job you end up taking, get *all* points of interest in writing.

Randy
  #10   Report Post  
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Robert Swinney
 
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Default Interview for a machine shop position

Yeah! Because a sweatshop by any other name is still . . . . a sweatshop.

Bob Swinney
"Randy Replogle" wrote in message
...
wrote:
I just got back from an interview for a die making position (Which
really didn't seem like a die making position after I seen what they
did...more on that later) The shop manager looked at my resume and
said I had the basic knowledge of the machine shop trade. He said he
wants to hire an apprentice. He also said he wants someone to fit the
young profile that he is looking for. I thought to myself..."this guy
only wants cheap labor." All of this kinda ticked me off a little
because I've been a toolmaker for the past 6 years. During this time,
about 80% of my work has involved designing and making my own jigs,
fixtures and gages with no supervision whatsoever. And the tooling I
make usually needs to be highly precise. It's not a machinist type
position that I'm doing by no means.

Anyways...back to the "die making" position, I took a tour of their
shop. All that they had was a lathe, vertical mill, 2 surface
grinders, and 2 drill presses. It looked more like a maintenance shop
than a die shop. The shop is support for a manufacturing floor that has
a bunch of punch presses. I asked the die maker in the shop what kind
of work he did. He told me that he mainly repaired dies by sharpening
them. He seemed a bit upset because the company doesn't want to
purchase the equipment for die making. They have all of their dies
made from other machine shops. Is this really die making? I
mean...the shop manager was saying things about my toolmaking
experience as being useless. However, if I went to work for his
company, I seriously don't know if I'd ever actually do some precise
work or design any tools.

Alot of this message is me just venting (maybe you guys had a similar
situation that you want to share).




Whatever job you end up taking, get *all* points of interest in writing.

Randy





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Eric R Snow
 
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Default Interview for a machine shop position

On Wed, 17 May 2006 20:51:29 -0400, "Robin S."
wrote:


"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
.. .
On 17 May 2006 16:26:13 -0700, wrote:
Say Jody, I think your job for the last 6 years sounds like what a
machinist does. What am I missing here? I make all my own fixtures and
jigs. In fact I make everything in my shop without supervision since
I'm self employed. I work to tight tolerances for much of the work.
And I'm a machinist. Should I call myself a toolmaker?


Are you a certified toolmaker? Have you apprenticed under a toolmaker?

The certified machinists at my work program and run machines. The certified
toolmakers take pieces made by the machinists and build working dies. They
are certainly not the same.

Also, what's a "tight tolerance"? Both as far as your jig and fixture work
as well as the parts they produce.

Regards,

Robin

I guess, Robin, that the ultimate certification is in the quality of
work I do. Most of the time these days the tightest tolerance I work
to is +/- .0001". A few years ago I ran a job making brass bullets for
a .50 caliber target rifle. That job required roundness within .00003"
TIR. Size however within .0001" TIR. OAL though was wide open at +/_
..002". But no, I'm not certified from a school or teaching program. I
make and engineer all sorts of stuff and it seems kind of limiting to
call oneself a "Toolmaker" as opposed to a "Machinist". Does a
toolmaker only make tools? Or does a toolmaker make whatever is
needed? Can this person weld too? Does this make them a
toolmaker/welder? Does the toolmaker also heat treat some parts? Maybe
grind some too? Sheesh.
Eric R Snow,
Resigned to being just a machinist who maybe can do a couple other
things. Especially good at sitting on thumbs though. Nose picking too.
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Eric R Snow wrote:
Actually Jody, I'm more of a machinist than a businessman. I'm glad
that you are a step above me. Maybe you can give me some advice.
ERS


LOL...dude...take it easy. I never said I was above you. Heck...I
don't even know what skills you have in the metalworking industry. You
probably are above me with your skills. Don't take it so personal.
And don't read into everything that is typed. Your worse than my
girlfriend.

You started out on the wrong foot when you began typing in this thread
with your annoying sarcasm. What's with all of that? Everybody else
here has been kind enough to give me advice on this situation.

Some advice?...chill out. Life is too short.

  #14   Report Post  
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Ecnerwal
 
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In article ,
Eric R Snow wrote:
Resigned to being just a machinist who maybe can do a couple other
things. Especially good at sitting on thumbs though. Nose picking too.


ASS-u-ming I ever get serious about trying to make money (a long process
of not ruining my fun at same is at work there) from my shop work (wood,
electronics, CNC, hand tools, metal, etc...) I've determined that I'll
be pulling my moniker from one of my oldest (likely pre-1860) lathes.

Maker

It's the only thing general enough to cover it all...I am NOT a
specialist, nor do I care to be.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
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Eric R Snow
 
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On 18 May 2006 08:30:49 -0700, wrote:


Eric R Snow wrote:
Actually Jody, I'm more of a machinist than a businessman. I'm glad
that you are a step above me. Maybe you can give me some advice.
ERS


LOL...dude...take it easy. I never said I was above you. Heck...I
don't even know what skills you have in the metalworking industry. You
probably are above me with your skills. Don't take it so personal.
And don't read into everything that is typed. Your worse than my
girlfriend.

You started out on the wrong foot when you began typing in this thread
with your annoying sarcasm. What's with all of that? Everybody else
here has been kind enough to give me advice on this situation.

Some advice?...chill out. Life is too short.

It was just an effort to show that calling yourself above a machinist
seems kinda swell-headed. It sounds like the job offer would not fit
your skills and you would be bored working there. And I'm not insulted
by the beneath/above remarks. They just come off in a kinda stuck up
way. It truly is hard to tell from a typed message what facial
expressions or tone of voice is being used. I know what my skills are.
Machinist seems to apply best. And unless a person only makes molds,
or only makes tooling, the term machinist seems to apply to the person
who is making all sorts of things out of mainly metal, using mainly
metal machines. And just like when making anything you make it to meet
or exceed the need without going overboard. No need for a 2 microinch
finish in the mold making soda bottle caps. But if you are making
gauge blocks that will wring together that good finish is vital.
ERS


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Robin S.
 
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"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
Or does a toolmaker make whatever is
needed?


Ultimately a toolmaker does whatever is needed. It is a specialization. GP's
and heart surgeons save people's lives through medicine. They are not the
same.

Toolmakers have specific knowledge which pertains to the tooling they build
and/or maintain. When building new dies, tryout/troubleshooting is a major
part of the build, taking in excess of 50% of the total hours required to
complete the build. Tryout typically requires very little "by the numbers
machine work" while requiring lots of experience-based decision and
execution.

Jig and fixture makers have specific knowledge as far as accuracy and
location, automation, productivity, ergonomics, etc. This includes original
design as well as tryout/troubleshooting.

A toolmaker is typically considered the top guy on the job, below
management. The really good ones can make decisions that can effect the
form, function and buildability of the final product and frequently that's
what the customer wants.

Understand that due to the custom nature of tool and die making in general,
the toolmaker is required to take a design that resembles "functional" and
make good parts. It may sound trivial these days with computers and
sophisticated programs available to designers and engineers, but ultimately
(especially in die work), the tool as designed will not produce a good part.

As far as your job is concerned, why would you even bother getting hung up
on a title? Aside from the previous ribbing due to the rampant arrogance in
the world of tool building, it's really just a name. I know many certified
toolmakers who can just barely get a die in the press and get the die to
close. I know others who can truly take a die from design to purchased tool.
If you're a one man army, there is virtually no title which would adequately
define your job except for perhaps entrepreneur.

Regards,

Robin

P.S. Signs of a toolmaker: heavy drinking habit, arrogance, vulgarity,
healthy distaste for engineers, constantly dirty snot, intolerance of bright
lights, social ineptitude, inability to do any more than just less than the
required amount of work to complete a job, nervous ticks, jumpiness,
partial/complete deafness, having the compulsion to stare blankly at
everyone passing by, etc.


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jim rozen
 
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Default Interview for a machine shop position

In article , Robert Swinney says...

Yeah! Because a sweatshop by any other name is still . . . . a sweatshop.


Whatever job you end up taking, get *all* points of interest in writing.
Randy


Not for nothing, but that (requiring terms in writing) is the quickest
way to not get hired. Granted in this case it's a good litmus test,
but employers and managers get really, really, antsy whenever they
have to promise an employee something in writing.

They get worried that they might be held to it, and won't be able
to change their mind whenever they feel like it in the future.
Bosses hate that.

Another issue with the idea is, even if they *do* put a promise
in writing, it won't be worth much. The standard scenario is that
you extract a written promise from your boss, for "X." Then
you get transferred to a different group, or your division is
taken over by another one - so you have a new management chain.

"I didn't make the promise to you, your former boss did. That
was then, this is now. Sorry the promise is wothless." Except
usually they leave out the 'sorry' part.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================
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Jim Stewart
 
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jim rozen wrote:

In article , Robert Swinney says...

Yeah! Because a sweatshop by any other name is still . . . . a sweatshop.



Whatever job you end up taking, get *all* points of interest in writing.
Randy



Not for nothing, but that (requiring terms in writing) is the quickest
way to not get hired. Granted in this case it's a good litmus test,
but employers and managers get really, really, antsy whenever they
have to promise an employee something in writing.

They get worried that they might be held to it, and won't be able
to change their mind whenever they feel like it in the future.
Bosses hate that.


And this especially won't fly with any company
that makes an honest effort to comply with all
the rules, laws and legal precedent regarding
labor. Companies invest a bunch of time and
money trying to be compliant with all the laws
and they won't risk noncompliance with an ad-
hock agreement not reviewed by the legal suits.

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Dave Hinz
 
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On 18 May 2006 12:48:12 -0700, jim rozen wrote:

Not for nothing, but that (requiring terms in writing) is the quickest
way to not get hired. Granted in this case it's a good litmus test,
but employers and managers get really, really, antsy whenever they
have to promise an employee something in writing.


Right. If they lie to you, find another job and leave. Give "the job
isn't as advertized" as your reason for leaving.

They get worried that they might be held to it, and won't be able
to change their mind whenever they feel like it in the future.
Bosses hate that.


Yup. It also makes you look like someone who is likely to push the very
last "letter of the law" issue, taking every sick day you're allowed to
without being written up, and so on. Might not be the case, but that's
how it's perceived.

Another issue with the idea is, even if they *do* put a promise
in writing, it won't be worth much. The standard scenario is that
you extract a written promise from your boss, for "X." Then
you get transferred to a different group, or your division is
taken over by another one - so you have a new management chain.


Yup. "Wasn't me who promised that, sorry." Again, if you're lied to,
get a better job. They don't owe you, you don't owe them.

"I didn't make the promise to you, your former boss did. That
was then, this is now. Sorry the promise is wothless." Except
usually they leave out the 'sorry' part.


Just like lawmakers.

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Mark Rand
 
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On Thu, 18 May 2006 15:22:56 -0400, "Robin S." wrote:




P.S. Signs of a toolmaker: heavy drinking habit, arrogance, vulgarity,
healthy distaste for engineers, constantly dirty snot, intolerance of bright
lights, social ineptitude, inability to do any more than just less than the
required amount of work to complete a job, nervous ticks, jumpiness,
partial/complete deafness, having the compulsion to stare blankly at
everyone passing by, etc.


Bugger, I suppose that means I'm a toolmaker. And there I was thinking that I
was a professional electrical engineer, who grew into and got burned out by
computers and just wanted to make swarf as a hobby to keep his sanity.

Mark Rand
RTFM


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Larry Jaques
 
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On Thu, 18 May 2006 09:24:01 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
Randy Replogle quickly quoth:

wrote:
However, if I went to work for his
company, I seriously don't know if I'd ever actually do some precise
work or design any tools.

Alot of this message is me just venting (maybe you guys had a similar
situation that you want to share).


Whatever job you end up taking, get *all* points of interest in writing.


Excellent advice, Randy.

Jody, in addition to that, make your apprehensions known to the guy
before you're hired so you're on the same page. Maybe they'll end up
redoing their job definition so you're happy or so they get the worker
they really need, even if they don't know what they want. You never
know until you ask.

I wish I'd asked more questions before hiring on to some of my
previous (automotive repair) jobs, and I've had employers tell me that
the touchy but honest questions I did ask were important to them for
future hires.


--------------------------------------------------------
Murphy was an Optimist
----------------------------
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development
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Eric R Snow
 
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On Thu, 18 May 2006 15:22:56 -0400, "Robin S."
wrote:


"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
.. .
Or does a toolmaker make whatever is
needed?


Ultimately a toolmaker does whatever is needed. It is a specialization. GP's
and heart surgeons save people's lives through medicine. They are not the
same.

Toolmakers have specific knowledge which pertains to the tooling they build
and/or maintain. When building new dies, tryout/troubleshooting is a major
part of the build, taking in excess of 50% of the total hours required to
complete the build. Tryout typically requires very little "by the numbers
machine work" while requiring lots of experience-based decision and
execution.

Jig and fixture makers have specific knowledge as far as accuracy and
location, automation, productivity, ergonomics, etc. This includes original
design as well as tryout/troubleshooting.

A toolmaker is typically considered the top guy on the job, below
management. The really good ones can make decisions that can effect the
form, function and buildability of the final product and frequently that's
what the customer wants.

Understand that due to the custom nature of tool and die making in general,
the toolmaker is required to take a design that resembles "functional" and
make good parts. It may sound trivial these days with computers and
sophisticated programs available to designers and engineers, but ultimately
(especially in die work), the tool as designed will not produce a good part.

As far as your job is concerned, why would you even bother getting hung up
on a title? Aside from the previous ribbing due to the rampant arrogance in
the world of tool building, it's really just a name. I know many certified
toolmakers who can just barely get a die in the press and get the die to
close. I know others who can truly take a die from design to purchased tool.
If you're a one man army, there is virtually no title which would adequately
define your job except for perhaps entrepreneur.

Regards,

Robin

P.S. Signs of a toolmaker: heavy drinking habit, arrogance, vulgarity,
healthy distaste for engineers, constantly dirty snot, intolerance of bright
lights, social ineptitude, inability to do any more than just less than the
required amount of work to complete a job, nervous ticks, jumpiness,
partial/complete deafness, having the compulsion to stare blankly at
everyone passing by, etc.

Robin,
I'm not hung up about my title. It just seemed to me that the OP was
denigrating machinists as if what he did made him better. Using your
doctor analogy it's sorta like comparing my Orthopedic Surgeon to my
GP. I have tremendous respect for both of them. Their jobs are
different and the Ortho guy had to spend extra years on his exact
specialty. But they are both equals in my eyes. The surgeon has lousy
bedside manner because he is kinda shy. He tries hard though. The GP
really listens to what I say, pays attention to the other things going
on in my life that may affect my pain level, and doesn't dawdle when
checking my prostate.
ERS
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Robin S.
 
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"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
Robin,
I'm not hung up about my title. It just seemed to me that the OP was
denigrating machinists as if what he did made him better.


I have found this mentality to be common in industry, although I haven't
been to very many shops.

The kicker is that while a toolmaker can typically do what a machinist can,
albeit not as quickly, a machinist can seldom do what a toolmaker can.

For example, I can setup, program (manually or using CAM) and run CNC
machines and make good parts. I can't do it really quickly but ultimately I
can get a good part. I believe none of the machinists at work have any clue
about die assembly or tryout - if they did, they'd be toolmakers. Indeed
calling a toolmaker a machinist is typically considered an insult.

Now my perspective is in the eyes of die work. Jigs and fixtures sound
ultimately more "numbers" based as opposed to experience and intuition, but
I could be completely wrong as I have built very few, and only very simple
jigs and fixtures. Nothing like inspection fixtures, high-production
fixtures, or tooling for automated assembly.

YMMV.

Regards,

Robin


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Robert Swinney
 
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Default Interview for a machine shop position

Right on, Jim. Whoever blurted the "get in writing" statement, needs a good
dose of reality.

Bob Swinney
"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Robert Swinney says...

Yeah! Because a sweatshop by any other name is still . . . . a sweatshop.


Whatever job you end up taking, get *all* points of interest in writing.
Randy


Not for nothing, but that (requiring terms in writing) is the quickest
way to not get hired. Granted in this case it's a good litmus test,
but employers and managers get really, really, antsy whenever they
have to promise an employee something in writing.

They get worried that they might be held to it, and won't be able
to change their mind whenever they feel like it in the future.
Bosses hate that.

Another issue with the idea is, even if they *do* put a promise
in writing, it won't be worth much. The standard scenario is that
you extract a written promise from your boss, for "X." Then
you get transferred to a different group, or your division is
taken over by another one - so you have a new management chain.

"I didn't make the promise to you, your former boss did. That
was then, this is now. Sorry the promise is wothless." Except
usually they leave out the 'sorry' part.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================



  #25   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Larry Jaques
 
Posts: n/a
Default Interview for a machine shop position

On Thu, 18 May 2006 20:32:42 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, xray
quickly quoth:

On Thu, 18 May 2006 07:58:17 -0700, Eric R Snow
wrote:

That job required roundness within .00003"
TIR. Size however within .0001" TIR.


I'm a garage hacker and have no idea or desire to achive that level of
tolerance. Just curious, can some machines do that just from knobs and
such or does it require more finesse?


Yes, and you need to know the machine well enough to work around any
slop, wobbliness, or wear it has. Adjust-out all you can and know
where the rest is so you can factor it in.


Being a novice on these things, I had an impression that the last pass
of removal should be a couple thou or more. No truth?

My tools are unlikely to get into the .0001 range, but I'm curious about
the techniques that might make it semi-possible if I ever need it.


You need sub-RCH-marked dials and a light touch, X. Bifocals and/or
magnifying lenses help, too. A really good "feel" for calipers/mikes
helps as well.

--'nother hacker.


--------------------------------------------------------
Murphy was an Optimist
----------------------------
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development


  #26   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Robert Swinney
 
Posts: n/a
Default Interview for a machine shop position

Mark sez:

" Bugger, I suppose that means I'm a toolmaker. And there I was thinking
that I
was a professional electrical engineer, who grew into and got burned out
by
computers and just wanted to make swarf as a hobby to keep his sanity."


Sorry about that - your having to switch from Prof. EE to swarf making as a
means to keep your sanity. The PC has done more to lower technical wages in
the world, and increase stress in the workplace, than anything that has come
along since Tesla. The problem is that anyone who can memorize the location
of a few plastic pads on a keyboard and run another's software is
"Engineer". No! That's not even the real problem. The real problem is
that employers are generally not engineering competent themselves and can't
tell an engineer from any other keyboard pecker. Thus, trained engineers
are held back because management, mostly keyboard peckers themselves, lacks
the technical sense to know the difference. It seems the MIS departments of
large companies are pretty much responsible for engineering decisions these
days. Don't even get me started on CNC! CNC proves what "management" has
long suspected - there is no need for technically trained personnel; they
can all be replaced by PC operators.

Bob Swinney


"Mark Rand" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 18 May 2006 15:22:56 -0400, "Robin S."
wrote:




P.S. Signs of a toolmaker: heavy drinking habit, arrogance, vulgarity,
healthy distaste for engineers, constantly dirty snot, intolerance of
bright
lights, social ineptitude, inability to do any more than just less than
the
required amount of work to complete a job, nervous ticks, jumpiness,
partial/complete deafness, having the compulsion to stare blankly at
everyone passing by, etc.



Mark Rand
RTFM



  #27   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Robert Swinney
 
Posts: n/a
Default Interview for a machine shop position

Mark sez:

" Bugger, I suppose that means I'm a toolmaker. And there I was thinking
that I
was a professional electrical engineer, who grew into and got burned out
by
computers and just wanted to make swarf as a hobby to keep his sanity."


Sorry about that - your having to switch from Prof. EE to swarf making as a
means to keep your sanity. The PC has done more to lower technical wages in
the world, and increase stress in the workplace, than anything that has come
along since Tesla. The problem is that anyone who can memorize the location
of a few plastic pads on a keyboard and run another's software is
"Engineer". No! That's not even the real problem. The real problem is
that employers are generally not engineering competent themselves and can't
tell an engineer from any other keyboard pecker. Thus, trained engineers
are held back because management, mostly keyboard peckers themselves, lacks
the technical sense to know the difference. It seems the MIS departments of
large companies are pretty much responsible for engineering decisions these
days. Don't even get me started on CNC! CNC proves what "management" has
long suspected - there is no need for technically trained personnel; they
can all be replaced by PC operators.

Bob Swinney


"Mark Rand" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 18 May 2006 15:22:56 -0400, "Robin S."
wrote:




P.S. Signs of a toolmaker: heavy drinking habit, arrogance, vulgarity,
healthy distaste for engineers, constantly dirty snot, intolerance of
bright
lights, social ineptitude, inability to do any more than just less than
the
required amount of work to complete a job, nervous ticks, jumpiness,
partial/complete deafness, having the compulsion to stare blankly at
everyone passing by, etc.



Mark Rand
RTFM




  #28   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Dave Lyon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Interview for a machine shop position


I'm a garage hacker and have no idea or desire to achive that level of
tolerance. Just curious, can some machines do that just from knobs and
such or does it require more finesse?


Most people that claim to be holding those tolerances are full of crap. I'm
not pointing fingers at anybody, cause obviously it is needed for some
tools, and can be done. But, it cannot be done in a general shop environment
day in and day out.

I am presently a shop owner. Before I started my own shop, I ran one for my
boss. I've don interviews with tool makers that will tour the shop and say
they'll have no problems holding .00005. I've seen 2 types of people make
those claims. Type one actually THINKS he can hold that tolerance, and will
try to do it on every job that walks by. Even if +- .05 would do. You cannot
afford to hire that guy. He'll take 3 times longer to do any job than is
needed. Type two hasn't learned how to use a micrometer, and isn't capable
of counting decimal places. He's just trying to get a job and doesn't think
you'll notice that he doesn't have a clue.


Dave, who has NEVER held closer than .0002, and can't think of why he'd need
to.


  #29   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Randy Replogle
 
Posts: n/a
Default Interview for a machine shop position

jim rozen wrote:
In article , Robert Swinney says...
Yeah! Because a sweatshop by any other name is still . . . . a sweatshop.


Whatever job you end up taking, get *all* points of interest in writing.
Randy


Not for nothing, but that (requiring terms in writing) is the quickest
way to not get hired. Granted in this case it's a good litmus test,
but employers and managers get really, really, antsy whenever they
have to promise an employee something in writing.

They get worried that they might be held to it, and won't be able
to change their mind whenever they feel like it in the future.
Bosses hate that.

Another issue with the idea is, even if they *do* put a promise
in writing, it won't be worth much. The standard scenario is that
you extract a written promise from your boss, for "X." Then
you get transferred to a different group, or your division is
taken over by another one - so you have a new management chain.

"I didn't make the promise to you, your former boss did. That
was then, this is now. Sorry the promise is wothless." Except
usually they leave out the 'sorry' part.

Jim



In my case the promises weren't *my* demands but were offered out of the
blue. I had a decent job already and these promises were the only reason
I took the new job.
Randy
  #30   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Robin S.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Interview for a machine shop position


"Dave Lyon" wrote in message
news:yFlbg.952791$x96.450759@attbi_s72...

I'm a garage hacker and have no idea or desire to achive that level of
tolerance. Just curious, can some machines do that just from knobs and
such or does it require more finesse?


Most people that claim to be holding those tolerances are full of crap.
I'm
not pointing fingers at anybody, cause obviously it is needed for some
tools, and can be done. But, it cannot be done in a general shop
environment
day in and day out.


And therein lies the rub. Day in a day out. You can finesse some pretty
tight numbers out of most machines, you just don't want to have to do it all
the time.

Most surface grinders can reliably hit .0002 over a smallish area. Manual
jig borers have dials graduated in .0001 or .0002 (it's been a while since
I've seen one). Cylindrical grinders can hit those numbers reliably. There's
basically no chance that a Bridgeport/knockoff can reliably hit .001" in a
production setting, and it has to be setup correctly to hit even .001".

As far as why you'd want to, high-speed dies require some pretty tight
numbers. Automotive engines require very tight numbers over hundreds of
thousands of parts. I'd assume there are others ;-)

I think a lot of people don't appreciate how far off things become when you
have the right tools to measure them. The way holes are curved, plates are
not flat, cylinders are not round or straight, etc.

Regards,

Robin




  #31   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Dave Hinz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Interview for a machine shop position

On Fri, 19 May 2006 14:24:11 -0400, Robin S. wrote:

There's
basically no chance that a Bridgeport/knockoff can reliably hit .001" in a
production setting, and it has to be setup correctly to hit even .001".


I am so glad to see someone write this. I've been struggling to get
better than that on some finish work. Am I just expecting too much?
Everything seems adjusted right, but I'm getting movement
from....somewhere. Nature of the beast? Flex? Cosmic rays? What
makes that be the inherent limitation of a tool type?

I think a lot of people don't appreciate how far off things become when you
have the right tools to measure them. The way holes are curved, plates are
not flat, cylinders are not round or straight, etc.


Ah, kind of like measuring pollutants. Used to be that
parts-per-billion weren't measurable, now people panic because something
is there. Always was, we just didn't have a fine enough tool to see it
before.

  #32   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Robin S.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Interview for a machine shop position


"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...

I am so glad to see someone write this. I've been struggling to get
better than that on some finish work. Am I just expecting too much?
Everything seems adjusted right, but I'm getting movement
from....somewhere. Nature of the beast? Flex? Cosmic rays? What
makes that be the inherent limitation of a tool type?


Are you having trouble hitting a thou on one-off work or just production
work? With care you should be able to hit a thou on one-off work, depending
on the work you're trying to do.

The major weakness of the Bridgeport and knockoffs is the two-way knuckle
joint on which the head sits. These joints are the bane of the machinist who
just wants to mill square faces and drill perpendicular holes. During heavy
cutting operations including facemilling, flycutting, endmilling, and
boring, the head is likely to go out of square. It is absolutely necessary
to square the head before doing any fine work, and I do it before starting
*each* day additionally.

After the knuckle joints, there are the brakes and gibs on the axes. While
it is good practice to always use the brake, one should understand that
neglecting the gibs will result in the axes changing location/orientation
when the brake is used. When the gibs are properly set, the brake should
have only minimal effect on the position and squareness of an axis. This can
be easily checked using a dial test indicator.

I'd say paying attention to the knee break is of significant importance.
Always square the machine, and run it, with the knee locked (the lever sits
below the knee crank, on the knee). Due to the weight of the knee and table,
having the gib incorrectly adjusted can result in major squareness and
vibration issues.

Obviously the x and y axes gibs must be properly adjusted, and their
respective brakes must always be used when the axis is not being actuated
during a cut. When the x and y gibs are adjusted incorrectly, the table can
be rocked by hand without too much trouble. This will obviously cause
accuracy, surface finish and cutter life issues.

Lastly, don't cheat with the quill - always cut with the quill retracted up
in the head (you need the exercise anyway).

HTH.

Regards,

Robin


  #33   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Dave Hinz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Interview for a machine shop position

On Fri, 19 May 2006 16:14:05 -0400, Robin S. wrote:

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...

I am so glad to see someone write this. I've been struggling to get
better than that on some finish work. Am I just expecting too much?
Everything seems adjusted right, but I'm getting movement
from....somewhere. Nature of the beast? Flex? Cosmic rays? What
makes that be the inherent limitation of a tool type?


Are you having trouble hitting a thou on one-off work or just production
work? With care you should be able to hit a thou on one-off work, depending
on the work you're trying to do.


One-off, I don't "do" production - this is how I relax or try to.
X & Y are fine but vertical is where I'm getting movement and I don't
know why.

The major weakness of the Bridgeport and knockoffs is the two-way knuckle
joint on which the head sits. These joints are the bane of the machinist who
just wants to mill square faces and drill perpendicular holes. During heavy
cutting operations including facemilling, flycutting, endmilling, and
boring, the head is likely to go out of square. It is absolutely necessary
to square the head before doing any fine work, and I do it before starting
*each* day additionally.


Oh. I haven't done anything since I leveled the machine after moving it
in, checked, it was square and I forgot about the whole deal. But how
can that move? (I've got the rockwell as in this pictu )
http://www.lathes.co.uk/rockwellmillers/

After the knuckle joints, there are the brakes and gibs on the axes. While
it is good practice to always use the brake, one should understand that
neglecting the gibs will result in the axes changing location/orientation
when the brake is used.


I have adjusted the gibs to be snug, the wheels can be turned with small
effort but there seems to be no play.

When the gibs are properly set, the brake should
have only minimal effect on the position and squareness of an axis. This can
be easily checked using a dial test indicator.


Ah, will try that. So that's how I can measure how much play is in the
system, which gets taken up by putting the brake on. Makes sense..

I'd say paying attention to the knee break is of significant importance.
Always square the machine, and run it, with the knee locked (the lever sits
below the knee crank, on the knee). Due to the weight of the knee and table,
having the gib incorrectly adjusted can result in major squareness and
vibration issues.


That's the area I'm having trouble so I'll go over that one again,
first. Interestingly enough, the original brake isn't there, and
there's a bolt in it's hole. I should investigate that and make a
replacement if that's my problem. I should make a replacement either
way, I think.

Obviously the x and y axes gibs must be properly adjusted, and their
respective brakes must always be used when the axis is not being actuated
during a cut. When the x and y gibs are adjusted incorrectly, the table can
be rocked by hand without too much trouble. This will obviously cause
accuracy, surface finish and cutter life issues.


Right. I haven't been locking the Y when I'm making a cut along X,
because I'm just going to move Y next. For making a surface flat, do I
need to? Actually, that'll give me vertical movement if there's any
play, won't it.

Lastly, don't cheat with the quill - always cut with the quill retracted up
in the head (you need the exercise anyway).


Yes. That was drummed into me quite effectively. Of course I didn't
believe it at first so I tried it the other way and learned that
something that big, yes, can flex.

Thank you for your time and advice, Robin.

Dave Hinz

  #34   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Interview for a machine shop position

In article , Robert Swinney
says...

Right on, Jim. Whoever blurted the "get in writing" statement, needs a good
dose of reality.


:^)

It's honestly not a bad idea. I've done it myself on some rare
occasions. Mostly in the case where the boss didn't quite seem
to know *what* he wanted me to do - but the only sure thing was,
it would be something different the next day. And that failure
to achieve our group goals was a direct result of the thing I
did yesterday, which was a Big Mistake (tm).

Also it was the thing he instructed me to do, the day before
that.

Repeat loop, endlessly.

Putting goals in writing and getting everyone concerned to
read them and agree to them, can help in a situation like
that. Often when managers have to order their thoughts
and prioritize their needs, it helps them and makes the
work more efficient.

Sort of like "is this what you want me to do?"

"Yes. But wait, No. Do this instead. No wait, that's
not it. I really want *this*."

Then when there's the next days search for the One To Blame (tm)
the written list comes out. "See, it says right here this
is what you wanted done. You agreed to it."

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================
  #35   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default Interview for a machine shop position

On Fri, 19 May 2006 15:40:15 GMT, "Dave Lyon"
wrote:

Type one actually THINKS he can hold that tolerance, and will
try to do it on every job that walks by. Even if +- .05 would do. You cannot
afford to hire that guy. He'll take 3 times longer to do any job than is
needed.


I have a machinist friend like this. Vietnamese, one of the finest
machinists I know.

But he constantly strives for a 16 finish when a 125 will be
acceptable. Every item he produces is a real work of art..the problem
being he is being paid to turn and burn and get it to the client.

And he owns his own business, and has no employees because he expects
them to do the same..but he is only being paid for the turn and burn,
so cannot pay them according to his requirements.

He and Ive gone round and round about this..and he ultimately admits
to being too picky, Shrug.

This is the same guy that needs money..has a shop full of rebult
Bridgeports to sell..but because he paid top dollar for BPs when they
were dear..cannot bring himself to sell any at todays market pricing.
So they will sit and collect dust until he dies and everything goes to
auction, where the widow gets pennies on the dollar.

anyone want to buy some nice bridgeports for $8,000 each?

Gunner, shaking his head

"If thy pride is sorely vexed when others disparage your offering, be
as lamb's wool is to cold rain and the Gore-tex of Odin's raiment
is to gull**** in the gale, for thy angst shall vex them not at
all. Yea, they shall scorn thee all the more. Rejoice in
sharing what you have to share without expectation of adoration,
knowing that sharing your treasure does not diminish your treasure
but enriches it."

- Onni 1:33
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