Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
A couple of weeks ago at the recycling center, a
welder was unloading some 1/2" square steel bar. I asked him if it was mild steel and he replied "yes, old mild steel, the best" I've heard references to "old steel" being better than "new steel" and I've never understood what the difference is. |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
Most steel made in this country now comes from melted-down cars, not
from mined iron ore. Such steel meets minimum specifications but you may find anomalies like local hard spots (where a chromed ball bearing was melted in for example). Many so-called "mild steels" today will harden somewhat if heated and quenched strongly. Maybe that's what he was talking about. - GWE Jim Stewart wrote: A couple of weeks ago at the recycling center, a welder was unloading some 1/2" square steel bar. I asked him if it was mild steel and he replied "yes, old mild steel, the best" I've heard references to "old steel" being better than "new steel" and I've never understood what the difference is. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
... Most steel made in this country now comes from melted-down cars, not from mined iron ore. Such steel meets minimum specifications but you may find anomalies like local hard spots (where a chromed ball bearing was melted in for example). Many so-called "mild steels" today will harden somewhat if heated and quenched strongly. Maybe that's what he was talking about. - GWE It depends on what you buy, Grant. If you buy AISI graded steel, it's somewhat better today than it's ever been -- if it's made in the US, Europe, or Japan (probably Australia, too, but I don't know how careful they are with their grading of carbon steels). The remelted scrap is used mostly in construction and other applications that don't demand strict adherence to alloys, only to certain properties of strength and elongation. If you buy the junk in hardware stores, you may be getting anything. Note the Jim's authority on old steel is a welder. He may have gotten stung by some "mild" steel that was actually a construction grade. The weldability of that stuff varies quite a bit. Ed Huntress |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
When you buy 10,000 pound rolls of cold rolled steel for
automobile fenders, the quality control is supurb, much better than it ever was in the old days. If you buy merchant grade flat, angle, and rebar from an electric furnace scrap melter, the carbon and alloy content can vary wildly. Older bar came directly from the steel mill, much more uniform. We wiped out 3 blades on a horizontal bandsaw in an hour one day on a process that we had done for several years. Problem was traced down to ONE bar of 1/4"x2" flat stock that had a huge carbon content, the HAZ was hard as a file. Jim Stewart wrote: A couple of weeks ago at the recycling center, a welder was unloading some 1/2" square steel bar. I asked him if it was mild steel and he replied "yes, old mild steel, the best" I've heard references to "old steel" being better than "new steel" and I've never understood what the difference is. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
Grant Erwin wrote:
Most steel made in this country now comes from melted-down cars, not from mined iron ore. Is that what they are making crowbars from these days? Such steel meets minimum specifications but you may find anomalies like local hard spots (where a chromed ball bearing was melted in for example). Which would explain a little about why a crowbar I was cutting up for a rock bar ate so many hacksaw blades. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
I would hope any self respecting crow bar would laugh at a
hacksaw!! It has to be something better than some 1018 forged to shape. Offbreed wrote: Grant Erwin wrote: Most steel made in this country now comes from melted-down cars, not from mined iron ore. Is that what they are making crowbars from these days? Such steel meets minimum specifications but you may find anomalies like local hard spots (where a chromed ball bearing was melted in for example). Which would explain a little about why a crowbar I was cutting up for a rock bar ate so many hacksaw blades. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
Roy J wrote:
I would hope any self respecting crow bar would laugh at a hacksaw!! It has to be something better than some 1018 forged to shape. Grinder threw yellow sparks with a tiny brooming at the end? |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
Are you trying to make me look up the spark trail charts? The
brooming at the ends means carbon, don't know how much. Offbreed wrote: Roy J wrote: I would hope any self respecting crow bar would laugh at a hacksaw!! It has to be something better than some 1018 forged to shape. Grinder threw yellow sparks with a tiny brooming at the end? |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
Grant Erwin wrote:
Most steel made in this country now comes from melted-down cars, not from mined iron ore. Such steel meets minimum specifications but you may find anomalies like local hard spots (where a chromed ball bearing was melted in for example). Many so-called "mild steels" today will harden somewhat if heated and quenched strongly. Maybe that's what he was talking about. - GWE Jim Stewart wrote: A couple of weeks ago at the recycling center, a welder was unloading some 1/2" square steel bar. I asked him if it was mild steel and he replied "yes, old mild steel, the best" I've heard references to "old steel" being better than "new steel" and I've never understood what the difference is. http://www.designnews.com/article/CA405992?nid=2334 "As automakers work to improve both fuel efficiency and safety, they increasingly need to add some lean muscle to their vehicles. Strong, lightweight structural components made from Advanced High Strength Steels (AHSS) may be just what the doctor ordered. This diverse group of multiphase steels with high strain hardening rates generally offers yield and tensile strengths as least twice as high as conventional stamping steels. Their tensile strenghts, for instance, start at roughly 500 MPa. So AHSS can certainly help automakers cut weight of body structures without sacrificing strength. Yet the advanced steels do have some cost and manufacturing barriers to overcome before they can more widely displace their lower-strength predecessors. The Great Designs in Steel seminar, held last month in Livonia, MI, served as good progress report on these advanced steels. " and the text goes on to more and more info. AHSS might be something to deal with someday. Martin -- Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn @ home at Lion's Lair with our computer NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
om... Grant Erwin wrote: Most steel made in this country now comes from melted-down cars, not from mined iron ore. Such steel meets minimum specifications but you may find anomalies like local hard spots (where a chromed ball bearing was melted in for example). Many so-called "mild steels" today will harden somewhat if heated and quenched strongly. Maybe that's what he was talking about. - GWE Jim Stewart wrote: A couple of weeks ago at the recycling center, a welder was unloading some 1/2" square steel bar. I asked him if it was mild steel and he replied "yes, old mild steel, the best" I've heard references to "old steel" being better than "new steel" and I've never understood what the difference is. http://www.designnews.com/article/CA405992?nid=2334 "As automakers work to improve both fuel efficiency and safety, they increasingly need to add some lean muscle to their vehicles. Strong, lightweight structural components made from Advanced High Strength Steels (AHSS) may be just what the doctor ordered. This diverse group of multiphase steels with high strain hardening rates generally offers yield and tensile strengths as least twice as high as conventional stamping steels. Their tensile strenghts, for instance, start at roughly 500 MPa. So AHSS can certainly help automakers cut weight of body structures without sacrificing strength. Yet the advanced steels do have some cost and manufacturing barriers to overcome before they can more widely displace their lower-strength predecessors. The Great Designs in Steel seminar, held last month in Livonia, MI, served as good progress report on these advanced steels. " and the text goes on to more and more info. AHSS might be something to deal with someday. HSLA (high-strength, low-alloy) steels used in cars for the past 20 years have already given the mini-mills a few challenges. Ed Huntress |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:23:16 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email Or the junk like angle, flat etc, even from the steel merchant. I needed to bend some 50-50-3 mm angle the other day, using heat. I needed a nice sharp angle and so I got it plenty hot. When I had bent it, I ran water over it to cool it. You could hear the difference between that one and another that I did then allowed to cool. It rang. Rough test, but it sounded hard. I heated it and let it cool. I would rather it bent than snapped. If you buy the junk in hardware stores, you may be getting anything. ************************************************** ** remove ns from my header address to reply via email I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry .........no I'm not. |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
Roy J wrote:
Are you trying to make me look up the spark trail charts? The brooming at the ends means carbon, don't know how much. Naw, I was just hoping you knew if it matched off hand. First prospecting bar I made from a crowbar used up one file and one hacksaw blade. That was about 20 yrs ago, and I can't remember where the thing went to compare the two. (CRS attack.) Didn't put it to much of a test, so can't say how well it worked. Hacksaws are getting softer, these days. That's it. And the people that make light bulbs? They're putting the wrong numbers on the bulbs, my eyes aren't getting worse. Print in the books is shrinking, too. I'm not getting any taller, but the damned floor is still getting further away. Anyone says I'm getting old is gonna get such a rap in the head, as soon as I can find my cane, dagnabbit. |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:52:14 -0800, Offbreed wrote:
Roy J wrote: Are you trying to make me look up the spark trail charts? The brooming at the ends means carbon, don't know how much. Naw, I was just hoping you knew if it matched off hand. First prospecting bar I made from a crowbar used up one file and one hacksaw blade. That was about 20 yrs ago, and I can't remember where the thing went to compare the two. (CRS attack.) Didn't put it to much of a test, so can't say how well it worked. Hacksaws are getting softer, these days. That's it. And the people that make light bulbs? They're putting the wrong numbers on the bulbs, my eyes aren't getting worse. Print in the books is shrinking, too. I'm not getting any taller, but the damned floor is still getting further away. Anyone says I'm getting old is gonna get such a rap in the head, as soon as I can find my cane, dagnabbit. 8-) Mark Rand RTFM |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message s.com... A couple of weeks ago at the recycling center, a welder was unloading some 1/2" square steel bar. I asked him if it was mild steel and he replied "yes, old mild steel, the best" I've heard references to "old steel" being better than "new steel" and I've never understood what the difference is. This one's easy, even I can handle it: Old steel is set in it's ways, and resists change, instead prefering "the way we always did it". Old steel knows how to put in a hard days work, earns it's keep and is reliable. New steel is often late, some days doesn't show up at all, thinks the rest of the world owes it something, talks back and does not yet know the value of a dollar. If you keep it around long enough, new steel will turn, slowly, gradually, sometimes at glacier like speed, into old speed. JTMcC : ) |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
"JTMcC" wrote in message ... "Jim Stewart" wrote in message s.com... A couple of weeks ago at the recycling center, a welder was unloading some 1/2" square steel bar. I asked him if it was mild steel and he replied "yes, old mild steel, the best" I've heard references to "old steel" being better than "new steel" and I've never understood what the difference is. This one's easy, even I can handle it: Old steel is set in it's ways, and resists change, instead prefering "the way we always did it". Old steel knows how to put in a hard days work, earns it's keep and is reliable. New steel is often late, some days doesn't show up at all, thinks the rest of the world owes it something, talks back and does not yet know the value of a dollar. If you keep it around long enough, new steel will turn, slowly, gradually, sometimes at glacier like speed, into old speed. Meant "steel" of course, not "speed'! : ) JTMcC. JTMcC : ) |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message om... Grant Erwin wrote: Most steel made in this country now comes from melted-down cars, not from mined iron ore. Such steel meets minimum specifications but you may find anomalies like local hard spots (where a chromed ball bearing was melted in for example). Many so-called "mild steels" today will harden somewhat if heated and quenched strongly. Maybe that's what he was talking about. - GWE Jim Stewart wrote: A couple of weeks ago at the recycling center, a welder was unloading some 1/2" square steel bar. I asked him if it was mild steel and he replied "yes, old mild steel, the best" I've heard references to "old steel" being better than "new steel" and I've never understood what the difference is. http://www.designnews.com/article/CA405992?nid=2334 "As automakers work to improve both fuel efficiency and safety, they increasingly need to add some lean muscle to their vehicles. Strong, lightweight structural components made from Advanced High Strength Steels (AHSS) may be just what the doctor ordered. This diverse group of multiphase steels with high strain hardening rates generally offers yield and tensile strengths as least twice as high as conventional stamping steels. Their tensile strenghts, for instance, start at roughly 500 MPa. So AHSS can certainly help automakers cut weight of body structures without sacrificing strength. Yet the advanced steels do have some cost and manufacturing barriers to overcome before they can more widely displace their lower-strength predecessors. The Great Designs in Steel seminar, held last month in Livonia, MI, served as good progress report on these advanced steels. " and the text goes on to more and more info. AHSS might be something to deal with someday. HSLA (high-strength, low-alloy) steels used in cars for the past 20 years have already given the mini-mills a few challenges. Ed Huntress I bet. I suspect some were using measuring cup method to make steel and had to switch to tea spoon or better when formulating a real steel that had tight specs. Suspect a real chemist is at work - and/or metallurgist. Martin -- Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn @ home at Lion's Lair with our computer NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
. com... AHSS might be something to deal with someday. HSLA (high-strength, low-alloy) steels used in cars for the past 20 years have already given the mini-mills a few challenges. Ed Huntress I bet. I suspect some were using measuring cup method to make steel and had to switch to tea spoon or better when formulating a real steel that had tight specs. Suspect a real chemist is at work - and/or metallurgist. Yeah, making it is tricky. But I was referring to its effects on the scrap/remelt (minimill) industry. It creates some problems, or it did, from what I've read about it. But I haven't covered steelmaking for a lot of years. It may all be solved now for all I know. Ed Huntress |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
et... Yeah, making it is tricky. But I was referring to its effects on the scrap/remelt (minimill) industry. It creates some problems, or it did, from what I've read about it. BTW... how do they remove carbon and alloyed stuff if the melt is too hard for it's use? Blow some air through it, add more mild scrap..? Tim -- "I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics, - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:32:34 GMT, "JTMcC"
brought forth from the murky depths: This one's easy, even I can handle it: Old steel is set in it's ways, and resists change, instead prefering "the way we always did it". Old steel knows how to put in a hard days work, earns it's keep and is reliable. New steel is often late, some days doesn't show up at all, thinks the rest of the world owes it something, talks back and does not yet know the value of a dollar. If you keep it around long enough, new steel will turn, slowly, gradually, sometimes at glacier like speed, into old speed. That strongly reminded me of a quote which I can't seem to find on my hard drive or at Bartlett. It went something like "liberal(democrat?) by 20 and a conservative(rep?) by 40", somewhat of a reverse to your metaphor. -- The State always moves slowly and grudgingly towards any purpose that accrues to society's advantage, but moves rapidly and with alacrity towards one that accrues to its own advantage; nor does it ever move towards social purposes on its own initiative, but only under heavy pressure, while its motion towards anti-social purposes is self-sprung. - Albert Jay Nock - http://diversify.com Web Programming for curmudgeons and others. - |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 07:58:16 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote: That strongly reminded me of a quote which I can't seem to find on my hard drive or at Bartlett. It went something like "liberal(democrat?) by 20 and a conservative(rep?) by 40", somewhat of a reverse to your metaphor. "If you are not a Liberal when you are 20, it shows you have no heart If you are not a Conservative by the time you are 40, it shows you have no brain" Variously attributed to Winston Chuchhill, Bismark and others. "rm -rf /bin/laden Bush = Root" |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 07:58:16 -0800, Larry Jaques
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email And large corporations simply don't pretend to do otherwise..... The State always moves slowly and grudgingly towards any purpose that accrues to society's advantage, but moves rapidly and with alacrity towards one that accrues to its own advantage; nor does it ever move towards social purposes on its own initiative, but only under heavy pressure, while its motion towards anti-social purposes is self-sprung. - Albert Jay Nock ************************************************** ** remove ns from my header address to reply via email I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry .........no I'm not. |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 18:23:51 GMT, Gunner
brought forth from the murky depths: On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 07:58:16 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote: That strongly reminded me of a quote which I can't seem to find on my hard drive or at Bartlett. It went something like "liberal(democrat?) by 20 and a conservative(rep?) by 40", somewhat of a reverse to your metaphor. "If you are not a Liberal when you are 20, it shows you have no heart If you are not a Conservative by the time you are 40, it shows you have no brain" Variously attributed to Winston Chuchhill, Bismark and others. Dassit. Tendjewberrymud. -- The State always moves slowly and grudgingly towards any purpose that accrues to society's advantage, but moves rapidly and with alacrity towards one that accrues to its own advantage; nor does it ever move towards social purposes on its own initiative, but only under heavy pressure, while its motion towards anti-social purposes is self-sprung. - Albert Jay Nock - http://diversify.com Web Programming for curmudgeons and others. - |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
"Tim Williams" wrote in message
... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message et... Yeah, making it is tricky. But I was referring to its effects on the scrap/remelt (minimill) industry. It creates some problems, or it did, from what I've read about it. BTW... how do they remove carbon and alloyed stuff if the melt is too hard for it's use? Blow some air through it, add more mild scrap..? Those are good questions. Here's a research opportunity for you, to refine your academic skills. g Seriously, I forget. I haven't been in a minimill for25 years. There's someone who posted in this thread who, IIRC, works in one. Maybe he can help. Or, dust off Goggle and go for it. There is a lot written about those mills, and how they operate. Ed Huntress |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
WTF do u keep posting this drivel?................people are dieing due to
complacency of cowardly ****s like yourself! "Gunner" wrote in message ... On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 07:58:16 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote: That strongly reminded me of a quote which I can't seem to find on my hard drive or at Bartlett. It went something like "liberal(democrat?) by 20 and a conservative(rep?) by 40", somewhat of a reverse to your metaphor. "If you are not a Liberal when you are 20, it shows you have no heart If you are not a Conservative by the time you are 40, it shows you have no brain" Variously attributed to Winston Chuchhill, Bismark and others. "rm -rf /bin/laden Bush = Root" |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 14:16:40 +0000 (UTC), "Rick Jones"
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email becoz u r the sort of **** hoo posts such useles **** as wot u hav posted. ****. WTF do u keep posting this drivel?................people are dieing due to complacency of cowardly ****s like yourself! ************************************************** ** remove ns from my header address to reply via email I went on a guided tour not long ago.The guide got us lost. He was a non-compass mentor.........sorry .........no I'm not. |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
Jim Stewart wrote in message ws.com...
A couple of weeks ago at the recycling center, a welder was unloading some 1/2" square steel bar. I asked him if it was mild steel and he replied "yes, old mild steel, the best" I've heard references to "old steel" being better than "new steel" and I've never understood what the difference is. The important thing to remember here is "new" steel is not made it is recycled. The chances of finding a "hard" spot cuased by the scrap mix are slim and none. The steel gets stirred at the LMF , then again by a baffle in the tundish then is poured via nozzle into a mold, then the temp is equalized in a long furnace before rolling. I would guess that the biggest difference is in the making of steel/ I have now idea how steel is made, but I do know that thanks to the rust belt we will have a cheap source of new steel for many years. |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
|
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
"Jim Kovar" wrote in message
... In article , says... I would guess that the biggest difference is in the making of steel/ I have now idea how steel is made, but I do know that thanks to the rust belt we will have a cheap source of new steel for many years. I dunno, by looking at scrap prices the "cheap steel" days may be over, at least for awhile. Keep in mind that the reason the Chinese are buying finished steel on world markets is that they don't have enough capacity of their own to keep up with their current, extraordinary demand. Buying finished steel is about the last thing in the world they want to do. They want to sell YOU finished steel, and cheap. Likewise, they haven't had a high enough volume of manufactured-products output yet to have sufficient quantities of their own scrap. That, too, will change. Their car production is into the millions now and they're increasing production by 40% per year. The ore situation is more questionable. I read something about it a year or so ago but I forget if it said they do or don't have enough ore. In any case, the thing that really drives prices is buying finished steel. Then scrap comes into play. Ore is the third issue, and the one least directly tied to prices. So it will level off and probably turn around. The Western steelmakers are making hay while the sun shines. Ed Huntress |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 14:52:11 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote: SNIP So it will level off and probably turn around. The Western steelmakers are making hay while the sun shines. Ed Huntress Geez Ed, then how come Stelco has gone belly up? I believe most of their problems came about with the US steel tariffs. Should Canada have insisted that the Taconite be processed "at home"? Brian Lawson, Bothwell, Ontario. |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Old Steel - New Steel
"Brian Lawson" wrote in message
... On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 14:52:11 GMT, "Ed Huntress" wrote: SNIP So it will level off and probably turn around. The Western steelmakers are making hay while the sun shines. Ed Huntress Geez Ed, then how come Stelco has gone belly up? I believe most of their problems came about with the US steel tariffs. Should Canada have insisted that the Taconite be processed "at home"? I don't know, Brian. I don't follow the industry closely enough these days. There's probably a retrospective on it somewhere, in the Wall Street Journal or elsewhere. 33 Magazine (the magazine of metal-producing) may have covered it. In general, North American steel companies are too small to survive in the world market. That is, basic steel. Minimills thrive in much smaller sizes because the economies of scale in the remelt business are much less. And flexibility, which favors smaller companies, has some advantage in the remelt business. US basic-steel companies have done some consolidating over the last few years. They're still marginal businesses. The current price runup probably is giving them the first healthy profits they've seen for years. I hope they take good advantage of it and position themselves for the changing marketplace. Ed Huntress |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
China is buying alot of scrap steel, will this be a problem? | Metalworking | |||
Drilling through a steel pipe. | Metalworking | |||
Bench Vise Questions (Steel vs. Iron) | Metalworking | |||
Plastering onto steel | UK diy | |||
Knife Steel FAQ updated | Metalworking |