HZ mill arbor support question
 

I have a new to me Hz mill. In the package were three arbors, one 1" and
two 1 1/4". This mill, a Dufour, French made, has two round shafts for the
arbor support like a K&T. The arbor support hole is 2" bushed to 1 3/4"
with an oillite or brass bushing, Within this bushing is a roller bearing
that has a bore of 1". So I'm assuming that when running the 1" arbor I
set up the spacers and cutter as needed and put the arbor nut on the outside
of the roller bearing using the inner race of the roller bearing as the last
spacer.
When setting up the 1 1/4" arbor I'm assuming that the roller bearing is
removed and that the bushing on the end of the arbor runs in the brass
bushing.
Some of my confusion is coming from looking in the catalogues and finding
that the running bushings on the arbor are standard at 1 5/8" or 1 7/8" OD.
Do most arbor supports have a plain bushing to support the arbor? Or are
rolling element bearing common?
thanks in advance
lg
no neat sig line

HZ mill arbor support question
 

"larry g"

Wrt overarm support for horiz mill

So I'm assuming that when running the 1" arbor I
set up the spacers and cutter as needed and put the arbor nut on the outside
of the roller bearing using the inner race of the roller bearing as the last
spacer.

? I don't know. But, seems to me the spacer/cutter setup should be locked up
independent of the outer-end bearing support for the arbor.
The old way was to have a dead center bearing on the arbor end, just as with a
lathe tailstock. The bearing had nothing to do with the spacer/cutter setup.
Frank Morrison

HZ mill arbor support question
 

I have a new to me Hz mill. In the package were three arbors, one 1" and
two 1 1/4". This mill, a Dufour, French made, has two round shafts for the
arbor support like a K&T. The arbor support hole is 2" bushed to 1 3/4"
with an oillite or brass bushing, Within this bushing is a roller bearing
that has a bore of 1". So I'm assuming that when running the 1" arbor I
set up the spacers and cutter as needed and put the arbor nut on the outside
of the roller bearing using the inner race of the roller bearing as the last
spacer.
When setting up the 1 1/4" arbor I'm assuming that the roller bearing is
removed and that the bushing on the end of the arbor runs in the brass
bushing.
Some of my confusion is coming from looking in the catalogues and finding
that the running bushings on the arbor are standard at 1 5/8" or 1 7/8" OD.
Do most arbor supports have a plain bushing to support the arbor? Or are
rolling element bearing common?
thanks in advance
lg
no neat sig line


Most arbor supports I've seen use a plain bearing (bronze bushing). Do your
arbors have reduced size pilots on the end to run in a bearing?

Using the ball bearing locked into the arbor spacers might give you some
problems as the arbor heated up.

Who knows, though. After all, you did say the mill was French.....

John Martin

HZ mill arbor support question
 

On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 16:56:11 -0800, "larry g"
wrote:

I have a new to me Hz mill. In the package were three arbors, one 1" and
two 1 1/4". This mill, a Dufour, French made, has two round shafts for the
arbor support like a K&T. The arbor support hole is 2" bushed to 1 3/4"
with an oillite or brass bushing, Within this bushing is a roller bearing
that has a bore of 1". So I'm assuming that when running the 1" arbor I
set up the spacers and cutter as needed and put the arbor nut on the outside
of the roller bearing using the inner race of the roller bearing as the last
spacer.
When setting up the 1 1/4" arbor I'm assuming that the roller bearing is
removed and that the bushing on the end of the arbor runs in the brass
bushing.
Some of my confusion is coming from looking in the catalogues and finding
that the running bushings on the arbor are standard at 1 5/8" or 1 7/8" OD.
Do most arbor supports have a plain bushing to support the arbor? Or are
rolling element bearing common?
thanks in advance
lg
no neat sig line

The bearing is strictly for arbor support. This method is very common
on the bigger horizontal mills. As you say..you may simply run the 1"
arbor though the bearing and put the nut on the outside. As long as
the bearing is a tapered double thrust bearing, it will work fine.

If the bearing is your typical cage rollers, not thrust bearings, ,
then it will collapse sooner or later if you crush it between the
spacer and the nut. Be sure to check!

The KT mills use the outboard bearing..but the end of the arbor has
the stub. I believe this is called a class A arbor. What you need to
do, is install your cutters, your spacers and your nut..and there
should (maybe..often G) be enough stub left sticking out to put into
your bearing. If the stub is smaller, simply make a brass or steel
spacer that is 1" OD, with the appropriate ID for the stub.

Ive seen a goodly number of arbors which included their own bushing
AND bearing which is designed to go into the arbor support. I did a
quick search but was unable to find an example on the net. I can take
some pictures of a KT this coming week, with the arbors and the
bearings/bushings for each arbor.

Typically, the arbor support has a oil reservoir that holds oil to
lube the roller bearings in the support, and the bushing that goes
inside the rollers, for each arbor.

Another method, is the rollers have an ID (or a bushing) that is the
same size as the OD of the spacers. The nut is installed, and its
smaller than the OD of the spacers..and the arbor support bearing
simply slides over the last couple spacers, no stub needed.

Be sure to check that arbor support bearing. If its simply a cage with
roller bearings running parallel to the arbor..with no provisions for
thrust..you will kill it by putting the nut on the outside and
squeezing the bearing.

Gunner

"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object will,
through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs,
Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object will
tunnel to Trotters, North Dakota).
The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability.
Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones,
of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines."
Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking

HZ mill arbor support question
 

"JMartin957" wrote in message
...

I have a new to me Hz mill. In the package were three arbors, one 1" and
two 1 1/4". This mill, a Dufour, French made, has two round shafts for
the
arbor support like a K&T. The arbor support hole is 2" bushed to 1 3/4"
with an oillite or brass bushing, Within this bushing is a roller
bearing
that has a bore of 1". So I'm assuming that when running the 1" arbor
I
set up the spacers and cutter as needed and put the arbor nut on the
outside
of the roller bearing using the inner race of the roller bearing as the
last
spacer.
SNIP


Most arbor supports I've seen use a plain bearing (bronze bushing). Do
your
arbors have reduced size pilots on the end to run in a bearing?

No reduced end. These are a type B arbor As near as I can figure looking in
the catalogue.

Using the ball bearing locked into the arbor spacers might give you some
problems as the arbor heated up.

The inner race on this bearing will move horizontally and should handle any
small expansion issues.


Who knows, though. After all, you did say the mill was French.....

John Martin

HZ mill arbor support question
 

In article , Gunner says...

Ive seen a goodly number of arbors which included their own bushing
AND bearing which is designed to go into the arbor support. I did a
quick search but was unable to find an example on the net.

The hardinge runs that way. There is a bearing integral
to the overarm support, and a slightly tapered bushing
inside of it. The end of the arbor (tapered also) fits
right into that.

I've also seen older machines with plain bronze bushings
that the arbor end slides into.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

HZ mill arbor support question
 

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 16:56:11 -0800, "larry g"
wrote:

I have a new to me Hz mill. In the package were three arbors, one 1" and
two 1 1/4". This mill, a Dufour, French made, has two round shafts for
the
arbor support like a K&T. The arbor support hole is 2" bushed to 1 3/4"
with an oillite or brass bushing, Within this bushing is a roller
bearing
that has a bore of 1". So I'm assuming that when running the 1" arbor
I
set up the spacers and cutter as needed and put the arbor nut on the
outside
of the roller bearing using the inner race of the roller bearing as the
last
spacer.
SNIP

The bearing is strictly for arbor support. This method is very common
on the bigger horizontal mills. As you say..you may simply run the 1"
arbor though the bearing and put the nut on the outside. As long as
the bearing is a tapered double thrust bearing, it will work fine.

This bearing is a straight roller, needle bearing if you want, that the
inner race will push out if necessary. This inner race on this bearing is
1 1/4" wide and should stand up to the crushing effects of being 'tween the
spacers and nut.

If the bearing is your typical cage rollers, not thrust bearings, ,
then it will collapse sooner or later if you crush it between the
spacer and the nut. Be sure to check!

The KT mills use the outboard bearing..but the end of the arbor has
the stub. I believe this is called a class A arbor. What you need to
do, is install your cutters, your spacers and your nut..and there
should (maybe..often G) be enough stub left sticking out to put into
your bearing. If the stub is smaller, simply make a brass or steel
spacer that is 1" OD, with the appropriate ID for the stub.

This is a type B arbor. It has no stub on the end for the bearing.

Ive seen a goodly number of arbors which included their own bushing
AND bearing which is designed to go into the arbor support. I did a
quick search but was unable to find an example on the net. I can take
some pictures of a KT this coming week, with the arbors and the
bearings/bushings for each arbor.

I have the book Treatsie on milling and milling machines by Cinci, but it is
not to detailed on this subject. They actually have a tapered bronze
bushing in the arbor support and go into adjusting the bush to fit the
running bushing on the arbor. There set up is to fit the running bushing to
the arbor on the bench, then assemble things on the machine.

Typically, the arbor support has a oil reservoir that holds oil to
lube the roller bearings in the support, and the bushing that goes
inside the rollers, for each arbor.

I have this on this mill, abiet much small reservoir than shows in the Cinci
book

Another method, is the rollers have an ID (or a bushing) that is the
same size as the OD of the spacers. The nut is installed, and its
smaller than the OD of the spacers..and the arbor support bearing
simply slides over the last couple spacers, no stub needed.

I think that this is where I might end up. In the cataloge they have
running bushings that are 1 7/8" od that I am assuming that are for running
in t he arbor support. I think that I may bor the arbor support to 1 7/8"
to accomidate this and be done with it.

Be sure to check that arbor support bearing. If its simply a cage with
roller bearings running parallel to the arbor..with no provisions for
thrust..you will kill it by putting the nut on the outside and
squeezing the bearing.


Gunner


BTW Gunner did you ever get around to checking on the cutters for me?

Thanks
lg
no neat sig line

"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object
will,
through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds
Knobs,
Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object
will
tunnel to Trotters, North Dakota).
The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability.
Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones,
of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines."
Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking

HZ mill arbor support question
 

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:07:05 -0800, "larry g"
wrote:



BTW Gunner did you ever get around to checking on the cutters for me?

Thanks
lg
no neat sig line


AAAAAHHHHH****. I knew I was forgetting something about cutters.
Email me with your info again and Ill get some out to you. Arbor size
too. I have some bigger ones now also I cant use.

Im very sorry about that. Sometimes its hard to remember your job was
to drain the swamp, when yor up to your ass in gators.

Gunner

"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object will,
through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs,
Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object will
tunnel to Trotters, North Dakota).
The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability.
Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones,
of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines."
Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking

HZ mill arbor support question
 

I also don't know. I suspect that different mills used quite different schemes.

On my little Benchmaster, the outer end of the 1" arbor is turned down a
bit smaller than the root of the arbor nut thread, and extends perhaps
1.5" past the nut. Thus one can install the cutters and spacers, install
and tighten the nut, then swing down the outer overarm arbor support and
slide it over the end of the arbor. The arbor runs in a bronze bearing
in the overarm support.

If needed/desired, the overarm to knee brace is then bolted to the outer
overarm support.

Dan Mitchell
==========

Fdmorrison wrote:

"larry g"

Wrt overarm support for horiz mill

So I'm assuming that when running the 1" arbor I
set up the spacers and cutter as needed and put the arbor nut on the outside
of the roller bearing using the inner race of the roller bearing as the last
spacer.

? I don't know. But, seems to me the spacer/cutter setup should be locked up
independent of the outer-end bearing support for the arbor.
The old way was to have a dead center bearing on the arbor end, just as with a
lathe tailstock. The bearing had nothing to do with the spacer/cutter setup.
Frank Morrison