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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Danger - stujpidity, steam and pets
Recently, during a late night "tweaking" of connections between a boiler
and steam engine, I did a very stupid thing. Common safety practices of adequate ventilation had been completely ignored when making a quick heat to check new connections between boiler and engine. Surely, there wouldn't be a dangerous build-up of CO2 with just a quick heat on solid fuel. Wrong! Almost tragically, wrong! About ten minutes into the project one of our cats was crying at the door wanting to get out of the closed garage - he had more common sense than I had. Shortly, he collapsed. I rushed to do whatever I could, totally perplexed over what could have "poisoned" poor Wilbur. There seemed to be nothing I could do to rescue him from the throes of Death. In the midst of all this, I noticed that there was none of the usual verbiage from the other kitty, "Noisy". Noisy had also collapsed, out of sight, hidden under the lathe. Finally, it dawned on me - carbon monoxide from the open fire under my boiler!! Immediately, I opened the garage door and removed both lifeless kitties into the fresh air. They were barely breathing, gasping in erratically short bursts. What to do? They had to be oxygenated as quickly as possible. I began giving them "mouth to mouth", alternating between them. Slowly, their breathing seemed to improve - - but was I doing more harm than good with my crude attempts at "mouth to mouth" ? Then, it occurred to me I had oxygen on hand in my welding rig. At first it was difficult to cup my hand over their faces while holding the torch, but they seemed to be responding, albeit very slowly. By now, Judy was on the scene with very practical assistance. She grabbed small funnel off the shelf and suggested it would make a better oxygen mask than my cupped hand. Viola! The message here is: Don't fool around with common safely issues! Even though I thought I knew what I was doing and no harm could come from a very brief heat, I almost killed two cats. I felt no ill effects but apparently cats are much more susceptible to CO2 poisoning than I am. On the other hand, they may have saved my life! I will have to live with that haunting thought and of how even a brief lapse in common-sense safety practices can lead to tragedy. Bob Swinney |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Danger - stujpidity, steam and pets
You probably were suffering the early effects, CO poisoning is VERY
sneaky. It's a good thing the cats faded out, they had more sense than the owner. But a good reminder to NOT ignore good safety practice. Robert Swinney wrote: Recently, during a late night "tweaking" of connections between a boiler and steam engine, I did a very stupid thing. Common safety practices of adequate ventilation had been completely ignored when making a quick heat to check new connections between boiler and engine. Surely, there wouldn't be a dangerous build-up of CO2 with just a quick heat on solid fuel. Wrong! Almost tragically, wrong! About ten minutes into the project one of our cats was crying at the door wanting to get out of the closed garage - he had more common sense than I had. Shortly, he collapsed. I rushed to do whatever I could, totally perplexed over what could have "poisoned" poor Wilbur. There seemed to be nothing I could do to rescue him from the throes of Death. In the midst of all this, I noticed that there was none of the usual verbiage from the other kitty, "Noisy". Noisy had also collapsed, out of sight, hidden under the lathe. Finally, it dawned on me - carbon monoxide from the open fire under my boiler!! Immediately, I opened the garage door and removed both lifeless kitties into the fresh air. They were barely breathing, gasping in erratically short bursts. What to do? They had to be oxygenated as quickly as possible. I began giving them "mouth to mouth", alternating between them. Slowly, their breathing seemed to improve - - but was I doing more harm than good with my crude attempts at "mouth to mouth" ? Then, it occurred to me I had oxygen on hand in my welding rig. At first it was difficult to cup my hand over their faces while holding the torch, but they seemed to be responding, albeit very slowly. By now, Judy was on the scene with very practical assistance. She grabbed small funnel off the shelf and suggested it would make a better oxygen mask than my cupped hand. Viola! The message here is: Don't fool around with common safely issues! Even though I thought I knew what I was doing and no harm could come from a very brief heat, I almost killed two cats. I felt no ill effects but apparently cats are much more susceptible to CO2 poisoning than I am. On the other hand, they may have saved my life! I will have to live with that haunting thought and of how even a brief lapse in common-sense safety practices can lead to tragedy. Bob Swinney |
#3
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Danger - stujpidity, steam and pets
Oxygen surely helps some, but Carbon monoxyde binds with red blood cells
with much, much more affinity then oxygen, and it is quite difficult to replace. The best cure for CO emergency situations is hyperbaric O2. The victim is placed in a pressure chamber with O2. cheers T.Alan |
#4
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Danger - stujpidity, steam and pets
CO (not CO2) is heavier than air, so the cats, being at floor level,
took the hit first. Just starting my car in the garage and driving out sets off the CO detector upstairs; Dangerous stuff if you are in the right (wrong) conditions. JR Dweller in the cellar Robert Swinney wrote: Recently, during a late night "tweaking" of connections between a boiler and steam engine, I did a very stupid thing. Common safety practices of adequate ventilation had been completely ignored when making a quick heat to check new connections between boiler and engine. Surely, there wouldn't be a dangerous build-up of CO2 with just a quick heat on solid fuel. Wrong! Almost tragically, wrong! About ten minutes into the project one of our cats was crying at the door wanting to get out of the closed garage - he had more common sense than I had. Shortly, he collapsed. I rushed to do whatever I could, totally perplexed over what could have "poisoned" poor Wilbur. There seemed to be nothing I could do to rescue him from the throes of Death. In the midst of all this, I noticed that there was none of the usual verbiage from the other kitty, "Noisy". Noisy had also collapsed, out of sight, hidden under the lathe. Finally, it dawned on me - carbon monoxide from the open fire under my boiler!! Immediately, I opened the garage door and removed both lifeless kitties into the fresh air. They were barely breathing, gasping in erratically short bursts. What to do? They had to be oxygenated as quickly as possible. I began giving them "mouth to mouth", alternating between them. Slowly, their breathing seemed to improve - - but was I doing more harm than good with my crude attempts at "mouth to mouth" ? Then, it occurred to me I had oxygen on hand in my welding rig. At first it was difficult to cup my hand over their faces while holding the torch, but they seemed to be responding, albeit very slowly. By now, Judy was on the scene with very practical assistance. She grabbed small funnel off the shelf and suggested it would make a better oxygen mask than my cupped hand. Viola! The message here is: Don't fool around with common safely issues! Even though I thought I knew what I was doing and no harm could come from a very brief heat, I almost killed two cats. I felt no ill effects but apparently cats are much more susceptible to CO2 poisoning than I am. On the other hand, they may have saved my life! I will have to live with that haunting thought and of how even a brief lapse in common-sense safety practices can lead to tragedy. Bob Swinney -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses -------------------------------------------------------------- Dependence is Vulnerability: -------------------------------------------------------------- "Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal" "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.." |
#5
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Danger - stujpidity, steam and pets
Don Bruder wrote:
Just starting my car in the garage and driving out sets off the CO detector upstairs If that's not an exageration, your car is either pre-catalytic converter and hopelessly out of tune, or the cat-con is shot, and it's running hideously rich. (and the cat-con is probably shot BECAUSE it's running so rich) The catalytic converter doesn't work right until it gets up to temperature. Assorted nasties are to be expected when you first start the engine anyway, but moreso if the converter is cold. And even then, when the converter is working right, there's still more CO than you'd want to breathe, unless the garage is very well ventilated. If buying a CO detector, I'd recommend springing for the extra bucks for one with a readout - some things that won't set off the alarm may still be worth investigating, while when the alarm goes off it's usefull to be able to follow the immediate evacuate/doors/windows drill with having some idea of what happened and to what degree you've mitigated it. |
#6
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Danger - stujpidity, steam and pets
Only when the cat is *lit*, Don. On cold start, the cat does not
function. Even a newer car, with air injection scheme to light the cat sooner, there is a 30-45 sec. delay before any reduction can be expected. I know what you are saying, but totally untrue in my case. My car blows zeros (warm) and runs perfectly. JR Dweller in the cellar Don Bruder wrote: In article , JR North wrote: CO (not CO2) is heavier than air, so the cats, being at floor level, took the hit first. True. Just starting my car in the garage and driving out sets off the CO detector upstairs If that's not an exageration, your car is either pre-catalytic converter and hopelessly out of tune, or the cat-con is shot, and it's running hideously rich. (and the cat-con is probably shot BECAUSE it's running so rich) A properly tuned vehicle with an operating cat-con produces practically zero carbon monoxide. Not actually zero, but so close as to be irrelevant unless you're sucking directly off the tailpipe for an extended period of time. CO is one of the things a cat-con is specifically designed and intended to remove from the exhaust stream. (by converting it to CO2). -- -------------------------------------------------------------- Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses -------------------------------------------------------------- Dependence is Vulnerability: -------------------------------------------------------------- "Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal" "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.." |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Danger - stujpidity, steam and pets
On Sun, 14 May 2006 10:09:59 -0500, "Robert Swinney"
wrote: Recently, during a late night "tweaking" of connections between a boiler and steam engine, I did a very stupid thing. Common safety practices of adequate ventilation had been completely ignored when making a quick heat to check new connections between boiler and engine. Surely, there wouldn't be a dangerous build-up of CO2 with just a quick heat on solid fuel. Wrong! Almost tragically, wrong! About ten minutes into the project one of our cats was crying at the door wanting to get out of the closed garage - he had more common sense than I had. Shortly, he collapsed. I rushed to do whatever I could, totally perplexed over what could have "poisoned" poor Wilbur. There seemed to be nothing I could do to rescue him from the throes of Death. In the midst of all this, I noticed that there was none of the usual verbiage from the other kitty, "Noisy". Noisy had also collapsed, out of sight, hidden under the lathe. Finally, it dawned on me - carbon monoxide from the open fire under my boiler!! Immediately, I opened the garage door and removed both lifeless kitties into the fresh air. They were barely breathing, gasping in erratically short bursts. What to do? They had to be oxygenated as quickly as possible. I began giving them "mouth to mouth", alternating between them. Slowly, their breathing seemed to improve - - but was I doing more harm than good with my crude attempts at "mouth to mouth" ? Then, it occurred to me I had oxygen on hand in my welding rig. At first it was difficult to cup my hand over their faces while holding the torch, but they seemed to be responding, albeit very slowly. By now, Judy was on the scene with very practical assistance. She grabbed small funnel off the shelf and suggested it would make a better oxygen mask than my cupped hand. Viola! The message here is: Don't fool around with common safely issues! Even though I thought I knew what I was doing and no harm could come from a very brief heat, I almost killed two cats. I felt no ill effects but apparently cats are much more susceptible to CO2 poisoning than I am. On the other hand, they may have saved my life! I will have to live with that haunting thought and of how even a brief lapse in common-sense safety practices can lead to tragedy. Bob Swinney CO can..can.. be slightly heavier than air..so may settle to the floor faster as well..so the poor cats probably got the biggest dose before it got up to your level. Particularly in a room with a thermal layer. All my CO detectors are mounted lowish..and I have a number of them..its one of my private fears, having grown up in the Lake Superior region, and finding more than one family stone dead when their heaters leaked. I lost a best friend that way. Excellent thinking on the O2, and its a good lesson for all of us. Gunner The aim of untold millions is to be free to do exactly as they choose and for someone else to pay when things go wrong. In the past few decades, a peculiar and distinctive psychology has emerged in England. Gone are the civility, sturdy independence, and admirable stoicism that carried the English through the war years .. It has been replaced by a constant whine of excuses, complaints, and special pleading. The collapse of the British character has been as swift and complete as the collapse of British power. Theodore Dalrymple, |
#9
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Danger - stujpidity, steam and pets
Yeah, Roy. You are probably correct. Since the event, I have had more
throat and sinus irritation. Thanks for the observation. Bob Swinney "RoyJ" wrote in message k.net... You probably were suffering the early effects, CO poisoning is VERY sneaky. It's a good thing the cats faded out, they had more sense than the owner. But a good reminder to NOT ignore good safety practice. Robert Swinney wrote: Recently, during a late night "tweaking" of connections between a boiler and steam engine, I did a very stupid thing. Common safety practices of adequate ventilation had been completely ignored when making a quick heat to check new connections between boiler and engine. Surely, there wouldn't be a dangerous build-up of CO2 with just a quick heat on solid fuel. Wrong! Almost tragically, wrong! About ten minutes into the project one of our cats was crying at the door wanting to get out of the closed garage - he had more common sense than I had. Shortly, he collapsed. I rushed to do whatever I could, totally perplexed over what could have "poisoned" poor Wilbur. There seemed to be nothing I could do to rescue him from the throes of Death. In the midst of all this, I noticed that there was none of the usual verbiage from the other kitty, "Noisy". Noisy had also collapsed, out of sight, hidden under the lathe. Finally, it dawned on me - carbon monoxide from the open fire under my boiler!! Immediately, I opened the garage door and removed both lifeless kitties into the fresh air. They were barely breathing, gasping in erratically short bursts. What to do? They had to be oxygenated as quickly as possible. I began giving them "mouth to mouth", alternating between them. Slowly, their breathing seemed to improve - - but was I doing more harm than good with my crude attempts at "mouth to mouth" ? Then, it occurred to me I had oxygen on hand in my welding rig. At first it was difficult to cup my hand over their faces while holding the torch, but they seemed to be responding, albeit very slowly. By now, Judy was on the scene with very practical assistance. She grabbed small funnel off the shelf and suggested it would make a better oxygen mask than my cupped hand. Viola! The message here is: Don't fool around with common safely issues! Even though I thought I knew what I was doing and no harm could come from a very brief heat, I almost killed two cats. I felt no ill effects but apparently cats are much more susceptible to CO2 poisoning than I am. On the other hand, they may have saved my life! I will have to live with that haunting thought and of how even a brief lapse in common-sense safety practices can lead to tragedy. Bob Swinney |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Danger - stujpidity, steam and pets
In article ,
"T.Alan Kraus" wrote: Oxygen surely helps some, but Carbon monoxyde binds with red blood cells with much, much more affinity then oxygen, and it is quite difficult to replace. The best cure for CO emergency situations is hyperbaric O2. The victim is placed in a pressure chamber with O2. I recall reading somewhere that CO2 (carbon dioxide) would displace CO (carbon monoxide) in the red blood cells, so the standard treatment was a mixture of pure oxygen and carbon dioxide, hyperbaric chambers being rare. Does anybody know for sure? Joe Gwinn |
#11
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Danger - stujpidity, steam and pets
JR North wrote:
CO (not CO2) is heavier than air, so the cats, being at floor level, took the hit first. Just starting my car in the garage and driving out sets off the CO detector upstairs; Dangerous stuff if you are in the right (wrong) conditions. JR Dweller in the cellar Check the atomic weights of C and O and then tell me again. :-) one c and one O vs. two O ...lew... |
#12
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Danger - stujpidity, steam and pets
The sure tip off of CO poisoning is a headache like you've never had
before (after you get out to fresh air and recuperate). A hatchet down the middle of the skull and someone twisting it would feel better. Sinus and throat is probably from all the OTHER crud that you put into the air. Robert Swinney wrote: Yeah, Roy. You are probably correct. Since the event, I have had more throat and sinus irritation. Thanks for the observation. Bob Swinney "RoyJ" wrote in message k.net... You probably were suffering the early effects, CO poisoning is VERY sneaky. It's a good thing the cats faded out, they had more sense than the owner. But a good reminder to NOT ignore good safety practice. Robert Swinney wrote: Recently, during a late night "tweaking" of connections between a boiler and steam engine, I did a very stupid thing. Common safety practices of adequate ventilation had been completely ignored when making a quick heat to check new connections between boiler and engine. Surely, there wouldn't be a dangerous build-up of CO2 with just a quick heat on solid fuel. Wrong! Almost tragically, wrong! About ten minutes into the project one of our cats was crying at the door wanting to get out of the closed garage - he had more common sense than I had. Shortly, he collapsed. I rushed to do whatever I could, totally perplexed over what could have "poisoned" poor Wilbur. There seemed to be nothing I could do to rescue him from the throes of Death. In the midst of all this, I noticed that there was none of the usual verbiage from the other kitty, "Noisy". Noisy had also collapsed, out of sight, hidden under the lathe. Finally, it dawned on me - carbon monoxide from the open fire under my boiler!! Immediately, I opened the garage door and removed both lifeless kitties into the fresh air. They were barely breathing, gasping in erratically short bursts. What to do? They had to be oxygenated as quickly as possible. I began giving them "mouth to mouth", alternating between them. Slowly, their breathing seemed to improve - - but was I doing more harm than good with my crude attempts at "mouth to mouth" ? Then, it occurred to me I had oxygen on hand in my welding rig. At first it was difficult to cup my hand over their faces while holding the torch, but they seemed to be responding, albeit very slowly. By now, Judy was on the scene with very practical assistance. She grabbed small funnel off the shelf and suggested it would make a better oxygen mask than my cupped hand. Viola! The message here is: Don't fool around with common safely issues! Even though I thought I knew what I was doing and no harm could come from a very brief heat, I almost killed two cats. I felt no ill effects but apparently cats are much more susceptible to CO2 poisoning than I am. On the other hand, they may have saved my life! I will have to live with that haunting thought and of how even a brief lapse in common-sense safety practices can lead to tragedy. Bob Swinney |
#13
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Danger - stujpidity, steam and pets
" Check the atomic weights of C and O and then tell me again. :-)
one c and one O vs. two O" My mistake, originally. CO2 is such a common symbol, it was an automatic mistake. CO, of course, would be correct. Bob Swinney "Lew Hartswick" wrote in message nk.net... JR North wrote: CO (not CO2) is heavier than air, so the cats, being at floor level, took the hit first. Just starting my car in the garage and driving out sets off the CO detector upstairs; Dangerous stuff if you are in the right (wrong) conditions. JR Dweller in the cellar ...lew... |
#14
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Danger - stujpidity, steam and pets
On Sun, 14 May 2006 10:09:59 +0000, Robert Swinney wrote:
Recently, during a late night "tweaking" of connections between a boiler and steam engine, I did a very stupid thing. Common safety practices of adequate ventilation had been completely ignored when making a quick heat to check new connections between boiler and engine. Surely, there wouldn't be a dangerous build-up of CO2 with just a quick heat on solid fuel. Wrong! Almost tragically, wrong! When I fire my furnace I make sure all the cats sit in the highest shelves and set some lit candles on the floor a couple feet away from the furnace, the rationale being that the flames will redden if they become oxygen starved. So far nothing has happened. Anyway, I hope I can spare the cash for some CO detectors soon. Camilo. *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com *** |
#15
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Danger - stujpidity, steam and pets
Joseph Gwinn wrote: In article , "T.Alan Kraus" wrote: Oxygen surely helps some, but Carbon monoxyde binds with red blood cells with much, much more affinity then oxygen, and it is quite difficult to replace. The best cure for CO emergency situations is hyperbaric O2. The victim is placed in a pressure chamber with O2. I recall reading somewhere that CO2 (carbon dioxide) would displace CO (carbon monoxide) in the red blood cells, so the standard treatment was a mixture of pure oxygen and carbon dioxide, hyperbaric chambers being rare. Does anybody know for sure? Joe Gwinn Also, some CO2 is required to trigger the breathing response. I'd imagine the CO causes the blood to not transport CO2 out of the body well, and so some CO2 might be required to keep lung action going as a reflex. Dave |
#16
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Danger - stujpidity, steam and pets
A canary works well too.
Gunner wrote: As a survivalist..Ive read the reviews over the years..and bought the various incarnations of the Nighthawk. |
#17
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Danger - stujpidity, steam and pets
On Mon, 15 May 2006 11:31:53 -0500, Mike Berger
wrote: A canary works well too. Gunner wrote: As a survivalist..Ive read the reviews over the years..and bought the various incarnations of the Nighthawk. Every time I plugged a canary into the wall socket, it made a funny noise, stiffened up, stuff squirted out its backside, then went limp. Maybe I had the polarity wrong? Gunner "If thy pride is sorely vexed when others disparage your offering, be as lamb's wool is to cold rain and the Gore-tex of Odin's raiment is to gull**** in the gale, for thy angst shall vex them not at all. Yea, they shall scorn thee all the more. Rejoice in sharing what you have to share without expectation of adoration, knowing that sharing your treasure does not diminish your treasure but enriches it." - Onni 1:33 |
#18
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Danger - stujpidity, steam and pets
On Mon, 15 May 2006 18:08:51 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Mon, 15 May 2006 11:31:53 -0500, Mike Berger wrote: A canary works well too. Every time I plugged a canary into the wall socket, it made a funny noise, stiffened up, stuff squirted out its backside, then went limp. Maybe I had the polarity wrong? Hm, that's odd. African, or European? |
#19
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Danger - stujpidity, steam and pets
Dave Hinz wrote in news:4crv0bF17hd0sU3
@individual.net: On Mon, 15 May 2006 18:08:51 GMT, Gunner wrote: On Mon, 15 May 2006 11:31:53 -0500, Mike Berger wrote: A canary works well too. Every time I plugged a canary into the wall socket, it made a funny noise, stiffened up, stuff squirted out its backside, then went limp. Maybe I had the polarity wrong? Hm, that's odd. African, or European? If you don't know you can check, it's tatooed on the back of their necks..... Bill |
#20
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Danger - stujpidity, steam and pets
On Mon, 15 May 2006 14:43:13 -0500, Bill wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote in news:4crv0bF17hd0sU3 @individual.net: On Mon, 15 May 2006 18:08:51 GMT, Gunner wrote: On Mon, 15 May 2006 11:31:53 -0500, Mike Berger wrote: A canary works well too. Every time I plugged a canary into the wall socket, it made a funny noise, stiffened up, stuff squirted out its backside, then went limp. Maybe I had the polarity wrong? Hm, that's odd. African, or European? If you don't know you can check, it's tatooed on the back of their necks..... Wouldn't that be a Cardinal then? Dave "Yes, I know, but 'bishop' doesn't fit as well" Hinz |
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