Recently, during a late night "tweaking" of connections between a boiler
and steam engine, I did a very stupid thing. Common safety practices of
adequate ventilation had been completely ignored when making a quick heat to
check new connections between boiler and engine. Surely, there wouldn't be
a dangerous build-up of CO2 with just a quick heat on solid fuel. Wrong!
Almost tragically, wrong!

About ten minutes into the project one of our cats was crying at the door
wanting to get out of the closed garage - he had more common sense than I
had. Shortly, he collapsed. I rushed to do whatever I could, totally
perplexed over what could have "poisoned" poor Wilbur. There seemed to be
nothing I could do to rescue him from the throes of Death. In the midst of
all this, I noticed that there was none of the usual verbiage from the other
kitty, "Noisy". Noisy had also collapsed, out of sight, hidden under the
lathe. Finally, it dawned on me - carbon monoxide from the open fire under
my boiler!!

Immediately, I opened the garage door and removed both lifeless kitties into
the fresh air. They were barely breathing, gasping in erratically short
bursts. What to do? They had to be oxygenated as quickly as possible. I
began giving them "mouth to mouth", alternating between them. Slowly, their
breathing seemed to improve - - but was I doing more harm than good with my
crude attempts at "mouth to mouth" ? Then, it occurred to me I had oxygen
on hand in my welding rig. At first it was difficult to cup my hand over
their faces while holding the torch, but they seemed to be responding,
albeit very slowly. By now, Judy was on the scene with very practical
assistance. She grabbed small funnel off the shelf and suggested it would
make a better oxygen mask than my cupped hand. Viola!

The message here is: Don't fool around with common safely issues! Even
though I thought I knew what I was doing and no harm could come from a very
brief heat, I almost killed two cats. I felt no ill effects but apparently
cats are much more susceptible to CO2 poisoning than I am. On the other
hand, they may have saved my life! I will have to live with that haunting
thought and of how even a brief lapse in common-sense safety practices can
lead to tragedy.

Bob Swinney

You probably were suffering the early effects, CO poisoning is VERY
sneaky. It's a good thing the cats faded out, they had more sense than
the owner. But a good reminder to NOT ignore good safety practice.

Robert Swinney wrote:

Recently, during a late night "tweaking" of connections between a boiler
and steam engine, I did a very stupid thing. Common safety practices of
adequate ventilation had been completely ignored when making a quick heat to
check new connections between boiler and engine. Surely, there wouldn't be
a dangerous build-up of CO2 with just a quick heat on solid fuel. Wrong!
Almost tragically, wrong!

About ten minutes into the project one of our cats was crying at the door
wanting to get out of the closed garage - he had more common sense than I
had. Shortly, he collapsed. I rushed to do whatever I could, totally
perplexed over what could have "poisoned" poor Wilbur. There seemed to be
nothing I could do to rescue him from the throes of Death. In the midst of
all this, I noticed that there was none of the usual verbiage from the other
kitty, "Noisy". Noisy had also collapsed, out of sight, hidden under the
lathe. Finally, it dawned on me - carbon monoxide from the open fire under
my boiler!!

Immediately, I opened the garage door and removed both lifeless kitties into
the fresh air. They were barely breathing, gasping in erratically short
bursts. What to do? They had to be oxygenated as quickly as possible. I
began giving them "mouth to mouth", alternating between them. Slowly, their
breathing seemed to improve - - but was I doing more harm than good with my
crude attempts at "mouth to mouth" ? Then, it occurred to me I had oxygen
on hand in my welding rig. At first it was difficult to cup my hand over
their faces while holding the torch, but they seemed to be responding,
albeit very slowly. By now, Judy was on the scene with very practical
assistance. She grabbed small funnel off the shelf and suggested it would
make a better oxygen mask than my cupped hand. Viola!

The message here is: Don't fool around with common safely issues! Even
though I thought I knew what I was doing and no harm could come from a very
brief heat, I almost killed two cats. I felt no ill effects but apparently
cats are much more susceptible to CO2 poisoning than I am. On the other
hand, they may have saved my life! I will have to live with that haunting
thought and of how even a brief lapse in common-sense safety practices can
lead to tragedy.

Bob Swinney

Oxygen surely helps some, but Carbon monoxyde binds with red blood cells
with much, much more affinity then oxygen, and it is quite difficult to
replace. The best cure for CO emergency situations is hyperbaric O2. The
victim is placed in a pressure chamber with O2.

cheers
T.Alan

CO (not CO2) is heavier than air, so the cats, being at floor level,
took the hit first. Just starting my car in the garage and driving out
sets off the CO detector upstairs; Dangerous stuff if you are in the
right (wrong) conditions.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Robert Swinney wrote:

Recently, during a late night "tweaking" of connections between a boiler
and steam engine, I did a very stupid thing. Common safety practices of
adequate ventilation had been completely ignored when making a quick heat to
check new connections between boiler and engine. Surely, there wouldn't be
a dangerous build-up of CO2 with just a quick heat on solid fuel. Wrong!
Almost tragically, wrong!

About ten minutes into the project one of our cats was crying at the door
wanting to get out of the closed garage - he had more common sense than I
had. Shortly, he collapsed. I rushed to do whatever I could, totally
perplexed over what could have "poisoned" poor Wilbur. There seemed to be
nothing I could do to rescue him from the throes of Death. In the midst of
all this, I noticed that there was none of the usual verbiage from the other
kitty, "Noisy". Noisy had also collapsed, out of sight, hidden under the
lathe. Finally, it dawned on me - carbon monoxide from the open fire under
my boiler!!

Immediately, I opened the garage door and removed both lifeless kitties into
the fresh air. They were barely breathing, gasping in erratically short
bursts. What to do? They had to be oxygenated as quickly as possible. I
began giving them "mouth to mouth", alternating between them. Slowly, their
breathing seemed to improve - - but was I doing more harm than good with my
crude attempts at "mouth to mouth" ? Then, it occurred to me I had oxygen
on hand in my welding rig. At first it was difficult to cup my hand over
their faces while holding the torch, but they seemed to be responding,
albeit very slowly. By now, Judy was on the scene with very practical
assistance. She grabbed small funnel off the shelf and suggested it would
make a better oxygen mask than my cupped hand. Viola!

The message here is: Don't fool around with common safely issues! Even
though I thought I knew what I was doing and no harm could come from a very
brief heat, I almost killed two cats. I felt no ill effects but apparently
cats are much more susceptible to CO2 poisoning than I am. On the other
hand, they may have saved my life! I will have to live with that haunting
thought and of how even a brief lapse in common-sense safety practices can
lead to tragedy.

Bob Swinney




--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

Don Bruder wrote:

Just starting my car in the garage and driving out
sets off the CO detector upstairs

If that's not an exageration, your car is either pre-catalytic converter
and hopelessly out of tune, or the cat-con is shot, and it's running
hideously rich. (and the cat-con is probably shot BECAUSE it's running
so rich)

The catalytic converter doesn't work right until it gets up to
temperature. Assorted nasties are to be expected when you first start
the engine anyway, but moreso if the converter is cold.

And even then, when the converter is working right, there's still more
CO than you'd want to breathe, unless the garage is very well
ventilated.

If buying a CO detector, I'd recommend springing for the extra bucks
for one with a readout - some things that won't set off the alarm may
still be worth investigating, while when the alarm goes off it's
usefull to be able to follow the immediate evacuate/doors/windows drill
with having some idea of what happened and to what degree you've
mitigated it.

Only when the cat is *lit*, Don. On cold start, the cat does not
function. Even a newer car, with air injection scheme to light the cat
sooner, there is a 30-45 sec. delay before any reduction can be expected.
I know what you are saying, but totally untrue in my case. My car blows
zeros (warm) and runs perfectly.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
JR North wrote:


CO (not CO2) is heavier than air, so the cats, being at floor level,
took the hit first.


True.


Just starting my car in the garage and driving out
sets off the CO detector upstairs


If that's not an exageration, your car is either pre-catalytic converter
and hopelessly out of tune, or the cat-con is shot, and it's running
hideously rich. (and the cat-con is probably shot BECAUSE it's running
so rich)

A properly tuned vehicle with an operating cat-con produces practically
zero carbon monoxide. Not actually zero, but so close as to be
irrelevant unless you're sucking directly off the tailpipe for an
extended period of time. CO is one of the things a cat-con is
specifically designed and intended to remove from the exhaust stream.
(by converting it to CO2).



--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

On Sun, 14 May 2006 10:09:59 -0500, "Robert Swinney"
wrote:

Recently, during a late night "tweaking" of connections between a boiler
and steam engine, I did a very stupid thing. Common safety practices of
adequate ventilation had been completely ignored when making a quick heat to
check new connections between boiler and engine. Surely, there wouldn't be
a dangerous build-up of CO2 with just a quick heat on solid fuel. Wrong!
Almost tragically, wrong!

About ten minutes into the project one of our cats was crying at the door
wanting to get out of the closed garage - he had more common sense than I
had. Shortly, he collapsed. I rushed to do whatever I could, totally
perplexed over what could have "poisoned" poor Wilbur. There seemed to be
nothing I could do to rescue him from the throes of Death. In the midst of
all this, I noticed that there was none of the usual verbiage from the other
kitty, "Noisy". Noisy had also collapsed, out of sight, hidden under the
lathe. Finally, it dawned on me - carbon monoxide from the open fire under
my boiler!!

Immediately, I opened the garage door and removed both lifeless kitties into
the fresh air. They were barely breathing, gasping in erratically short
bursts. What to do? They had to be oxygenated as quickly as possible. I
began giving them "mouth to mouth", alternating between them. Slowly, their
breathing seemed to improve - - but was I doing more harm than good with my
crude attempts at "mouth to mouth" ? Then, it occurred to me I had oxygen
on hand in my welding rig. At first it was difficult to cup my hand over
their faces while holding the torch, but they seemed to be responding,
albeit very slowly. By now, Judy was on the scene with very practical
assistance. She grabbed small funnel off the shelf and suggested it would
make a better oxygen mask than my cupped hand. Viola!

The message here is: Don't fool around with common safely issues! Even
though I thought I knew what I was doing and no harm could come from a very
brief heat, I almost killed two cats. I felt no ill effects but apparently
cats are much more susceptible to CO2 poisoning than I am. On the other
hand, they may have saved my life! I will have to live with that haunting
thought and of how even a brief lapse in common-sense safety practices can
lead to tragedy.

Bob Swinney

CO can..can.. be slightly heavier than air..so may settle to the floor
faster as well..so the poor cats probably got the biggest dose before
it got up to your level. Particularly in a room with a thermal layer.

All my CO detectors are mounted lowish..and I have a number of
them..its one of my private fears, having grown up in the Lake
Superior region, and finding more than one family stone dead when
their heaters leaked. I lost a best friend that way.

Excellent thinking on the O2, and its a good lesson for all of us.

Gunner

The aim of untold millions is to be free to do exactly as they choose
and for someone else to pay when things go wrong.

In the past few decades, a peculiar and distinctive psychology
has emerged in England. Gone are the civility, sturdy independence,
and admirable stoicism that carried the English through the war years
.. It has been replaced by a constant whine of excuses, complaints,
and special pleading. The collapse of the British character has been
as swift and complete as the collapse of British power.

Theodore Dalrymple,

On 14 May 2006 09:59:40 -0700, wrote:

Don Bruder wrote:

Just starting my car in the garage and driving out
sets off the CO detector upstairs

If that's not an exageration, your car is either pre-catalytic converter
and hopelessly out of tune, or the cat-con is shot, and it's running
hideously rich. (and the cat-con is probably shot BECAUSE it's running
so rich)

The catalytic converter doesn't work right until it gets up to
temperature. Assorted nasties are to be expected when you first start
the engine anyway, but moreso if the converter is cold.

And even then, when the converter is working right, there's still more
CO than you'd want to breathe, unless the garage is very well
ventilated.

If buying a CO detector, I'd recommend springing for the extra bucks
for one with a readout - some things that won't set off the alarm may
still be worth investigating, while when the alarm goes off it's
usefull to be able to follow the immediate evacuate/doors/windows drill
with having some idea of what happened and to what degree you've
mitigated it.

http://www.consumersearch.com/www/ho...ors/index.html

As a survivalist..Ive read the reviews over the years..and bought the
various incarnations of the Nighthawk.

Gunner

The aim of untold millions is to be free to do exactly as they choose
and for someone else to pay when things go wrong.

In the past few decades, a peculiar and distinctive psychology
has emerged in England. Gone are the civility, sturdy independence,
and admirable stoicism that carried the English through the war years
.. It has been replaced by a constant whine of excuses, complaints,
and special pleading. The collapse of the British character has been
as swift and complete as the collapse of British power.

Theodore Dalrymple,

Yeah, Roy. You are probably correct. Since the event, I have had more
throat and sinus irritation. Thanks for the observation.

Bob Swinney
"RoyJ" wrote in message
k.net...
You probably were suffering the early effects, CO poisoning is VERY
sneaky. It's a good thing the cats faded out, they had more sense than the
owner. But a good reminder to NOT ignore good safety practice.

Robert Swinney wrote:

Recently, during a late night "tweaking" of connections between a boiler
and steam engine, I did a very stupid thing. Common safety practices of
adequate ventilation had been completely ignored when making a quick heat
to check new connections between boiler and engine. Surely, there
wouldn't be a dangerous build-up of CO2 with just a quick heat on solid
fuel. Wrong! Almost tragically, wrong!

About ten minutes into the project one of our cats was crying at the door
wanting to get out of the closed garage - he had more common sense than I
had. Shortly, he collapsed. I rushed to do whatever I could, totally
perplexed over what could have "poisoned" poor Wilbur. There seemed to
be nothing I could do to rescue him from the throes of Death. In the
midst of all this, I noticed that there was none of the usual verbiage
from the other kitty, "Noisy". Noisy had also collapsed, out of sight,
hidden under the lathe. Finally, it dawned on me - carbon monoxide from
the open fire under my boiler!!

Immediately, I opened the garage door and removed both lifeless kitties
into the fresh air. They were barely breathing, gasping in erratically
short bursts. What to do? They had to be oxygenated as quickly as
possible. I began giving them "mouth to mouth", alternating between
them. Slowly, their breathing seemed to improve - - but was I doing more
harm than good with my crude attempts at "mouth to mouth" ? Then, it
occurred to me I had oxygen on hand in my welding rig. At first it was
difficult to cup my hand over their faces while holding the torch, but
they seemed to be responding, albeit very slowly. By now, Judy was on
the scene with very practical assistance. She grabbed small funnel off
the shelf and suggested it would make a better oxygen mask than my cupped
hand. Viola!

The message here is: Don't fool around with common safely issues! Even
though I thought I knew what I was doing and no harm could come from a
very brief heat, I almost killed two cats. I felt no ill effects but
apparently cats are much more susceptible to CO2 poisoning than I am. On
the other hand, they may have saved my life! I will have to live with
that haunting thought and of how even a brief lapse in common-sense
safety practices can lead to tragedy.

Bob Swinney

In article ,
"T.Alan Kraus" wrote:

Oxygen surely helps some, but Carbon monoxyde binds with red blood cells
with much, much more affinity then oxygen, and it is quite difficult to
replace. The best cure for CO emergency situations is hyperbaric O2. The
victim is placed in a pressure chamber with O2.

I recall reading somewhere that CO2 (carbon dioxide) would displace CO
(carbon monoxide) in the red blood cells, so the standard treatment was
a mixture of pure oxygen and carbon dioxide, hyperbaric chambers being
rare.

Does anybody know for sure?

Joe Gwinn

JR North wrote:
CO (not CO2) is heavier than air, so the cats, being at floor level,
took the hit first. Just starting my car in the garage and driving out
sets off the CO detector upstairs; Dangerous stuff if you are in the
right (wrong) conditions.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Check the atomic weights of C and O and then tell me again. :-)
one c and one O vs. two O
...lew...

The sure tip off of CO poisoning is a headache like you've never had
before (after you get out to fresh air and recuperate). A hatchet down
the middle of the skull and someone twisting it would feel better. Sinus
and throat is probably from all the OTHER crud that you put into the air.

Robert Swinney wrote:
Yeah, Roy. You are probably correct. Since the event, I have had more
throat and sinus irritation. Thanks for the observation.

Bob Swinney
"RoyJ" wrote in message
k.net...

You probably were suffering the early effects, CO poisoning is VERY
sneaky. It's a good thing the cats faded out, they had more sense than the
owner. But a good reminder to NOT ignore good safety practice.

Robert Swinney wrote:


Recently, during a late night "tweaking" of connections between a boiler
and steam engine, I did a very stupid thing. Common safety practices of
adequate ventilation had been completely ignored when making a quick heat
to check new connections between boiler and engine. Surely, there
wouldn't be a dangerous build-up of CO2 with just a quick heat on solid
fuel. Wrong! Almost tragically, wrong!

About ten minutes into the project one of our cats was crying at the door
wanting to get out of the closed garage - he had more common sense than I
had. Shortly, he collapsed. I rushed to do whatever I could, totally
perplexed over what could have "poisoned" poor Wilbur. There seemed to
be nothing I could do to rescue him from the throes of Death. In the
midst of all this, I noticed that there was none of the usual verbiage
from the other kitty, "Noisy". Noisy had also collapsed, out of sight,
hidden under the lathe. Finally, it dawned on me - carbon monoxide from
the open fire under my boiler!!

Immediately, I opened the garage door and removed both lifeless kitties
into the fresh air. They were barely breathing, gasping in erratically
short bursts. What to do? They had to be oxygenated as quickly as
possible. I began giving them "mouth to mouth", alternating between
them. Slowly, their breathing seemed to improve - - but was I doing more
harm than good with my crude attempts at "mouth to mouth" ? Then, it
occurred to me I had oxygen on hand in my welding rig. At first it was
difficult to cup my hand over their faces while holding the torch, but
they seemed to be responding, albeit very slowly. By now, Judy was on
the scene with very practical assistance. She grabbed small funnel off
the shelf and suggested it would make a better oxygen mask than my cupped
hand. Viola!

The message here is: Don't fool around with common safely issues! Even
though I thought I knew what I was doing and no harm could come from a
very brief heat, I almost killed two cats. I felt no ill effects but
apparently cats are much more susceptible to CO2 poisoning than I am. On
the other hand, they may have saved my life! I will have to live with
that haunting thought and of how even a brief lapse in common-sense
safety practices can lead to tragedy.

Bob Swinney

" Check the atomic weights of C and O and then tell me again. :-)
one c and one O vs. two O"

My mistake, originally. CO2 is such a common symbol, it was an automatic
mistake. CO, of course, would be correct.

Bob Swinney



"Lew Hartswick" wrote in message
nk.net...
JR North wrote:
CO (not CO2) is heavier than air, so the cats, being at floor level, took
the hit first. Just starting my car in the garage and driving out sets
off the CO detector upstairs; Dangerous stuff if you are in the right
(wrong) conditions.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

...lew...

On Sun, 14 May 2006 10:09:59 +0000, Robert Swinney wrote:

Recently, during a late night "tweaking" of connections between a boiler
and steam engine, I did a very stupid thing. Common safety practices of
adequate ventilation had been completely ignored when making a quick heat to
check new connections between boiler and engine. Surely, there wouldn't be
a dangerous build-up of CO2 with just a quick heat on solid fuel. Wrong!
Almost tragically, wrong!


When I fire my furnace I make sure all the cats sit in the highest shelves
and set some lit candles on the floor a couple feet away from the furnace,
the rationale being that the flames will redden if they become oxygen
starved. So far nothing has happened. Anyway, I hope I can spare the cash
for some CO detectors soon.



Camilo.


*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***

Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In article ,
"T.Alan Kraus" wrote:

Oxygen surely helps some, but Carbon monoxyde binds with red blood cells
with much, much more affinity then oxygen, and it is quite difficult to
replace. The best cure for CO emergency situations is hyperbaric O2. The
victim is placed in a pressure chamber with O2.

I recall reading somewhere that CO2 (carbon dioxide) would displace CO
(carbon monoxide) in the red blood cells, so the standard treatment was
a mixture of pure oxygen and carbon dioxide, hyperbaric chambers being
rare.

Does anybody know for sure?

Joe Gwinn


Also, some CO2 is required to trigger the breathing response.
I'd imagine the CO causes the blood to not transport CO2 out of the
body well, and so some CO2 might be required to keep lung action going
as a reflex.

Dave

A canary works well too.

Gunner wrote:

As a survivalist..Ive read the reviews over the years..and bought the
various incarnations of the Nighthawk.

On Mon, 15 May 2006 11:31:53 -0500, Mike Berger
wrote:

A canary works well too.

Gunner wrote:

As a survivalist..Ive read the reviews over the years..and bought the
various incarnations of the Nighthawk.

Every time I plugged a canary into the wall socket, it made a funny
noise, stiffened up, stuff squirted out its backside, then went limp.

Maybe I had the polarity wrong?


Gunner

"If thy pride is sorely vexed when others disparage your offering, be
as lamb's wool is to cold rain and the Gore-tex of Odin's raiment
is to gull**** in the gale, for thy angst shall vex them not at
all. Yea, they shall scorn thee all the more. Rejoice in
sharing what you have to share without expectation of adoration,
knowing that sharing your treasure does not diminish your treasure
but enriches it."

- Onni 1:33

On Mon, 15 May 2006 18:08:51 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Mon, 15 May 2006 11:31:53 -0500, Mike Berger
wrote:

A canary works well too.

Every time I plugged a canary into the wall socket, it made a funny
noise, stiffened up, stuff squirted out its backside, then went limp.
Maybe I had the polarity wrong?

Hm, that's odd. African, or European?

Dave Hinz wrote in news:4crv0bF17hd0sU3
@individual.net:

On Mon, 15 May 2006 18:08:51 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Mon, 15 May 2006 11:31:53 -0500, Mike Berger
wrote:

A canary works well too.

Every time I plugged a canary into the wall socket, it made a funny
noise, stiffened up, stuff squirted out its backside, then went limp.
Maybe I had the polarity wrong?

Hm, that's odd. African, or European?

If you don't know you can check, it's tatooed on the back of their
necks.....

Bill

On Mon, 15 May 2006 14:43:13 -0500, Bill wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote in news:4crv0bF17hd0sU3
@individual.net:

On Mon, 15 May 2006 18:08:51 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Mon, 15 May 2006 11:31:53 -0500, Mike Berger
wrote:

A canary works well too.

Every time I plugged a canary into the wall socket, it made a funny
noise, stiffened up, stuff squirted out its backside, then went limp.
Maybe I had the polarity wrong?

Hm, that's odd. African, or European?

If you don't know you can check, it's tatooed on the back of their
necks.....

Wouldn't that be a Cardinal then?

Dave "Yes, I know, but 'bishop' doesn't fit as well" Hinz