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OT- The Deadliest Men
Situation: A law-abiding armed citizen faces multiple armed robberies and murder attempts. Lesson: Only the power of lawful force can answer the power of lawless criminal force. A few years ago, the TV program Turning Point focused on private citizens who had used guns in self-defense. In refreshing contrast to much of the mainstream electronic media, the show for the most part gave a fair and balanced portrayal of ordinary people who had been forced to resort to defensive firearms in extraordinary circumstances. I wrote about it in this space at the time. Among the Turning Point shootings we discussed were the series of armed robberies and attempted murders defeated by Lance Thomas, the owner of a watch shop in Los Angeles. In 2001, Paladin Press published one of the best "reads" of the year for people who follow the gun culture and understand the principles of self-protection. The author is Paul Kirchner, who has collaborated with Col. Jeff Cooper on previous books, and the title is The Deadliest Men: The World's Deadliest Combatants Through the Ages. It covers figures as disparate as the French swordswoman known as La Maupin, such great American war heroes as Alvin York and Audie Murphy; gunfighters like Wild Bill Hickok and Bat Masterson, and a man named Lance Thomas. Over a period of less than 3 years, Thomas was involved in four gun battles against a total of 11 known suspects. He shot six of them, killing five. The watch dealer himself was wounded on two of these occasions, taking a total of five rounds. There are many lessons that the rest of us can learn: Lessons of long-term strategy and short-term tactics; of gun selection and ammunition effectiveness; and, above all, of courage under fire in the moment, and of determination over the long haul. August 10, 1989. Like so many storekeepers, Thomas feels his watch shop would be a safer place if he had a gun with which to fend off armed robbers. He has acquired a Model 36, a five-shot Smith & Wesson .38 Chief Special. He keeps the snubnose revolver where he can reach it easily. On this day, he'll be glad he did.Two men enter. One appears to have some sort of weapon, and the other pulls what Thomas recognizes as a 9mm semiautomatic pistol. Thomas knows he can just give the man his money and goods, but he also knows that to do so is to trust his life to the whim of a violent man unlawfully wielding a deadly weapon. Instead, Thomas chooses to fight.His hand flashes to the Chief Special, and he comes up shooting. The little revolver barks three times. Two of his bullets miss, but one smashes into the gunman's face, putting him out of the fight. The merchant swings toward the accomplice, but cannot see a weapon at the moment, and so, does not fire. Instead, he orders the suspect to leave. The now-compliant accomplice does so, dragging his wounded comrade with him. The robber will survive. Lance Thomas is unhurt. His decision to be an armed citizen, to fight back, has been validated. The wounded robber will be charged, and the armed citizen has the sympathy of the authorities. Thomas has won in every respect. In assessing the aftermath, the Rolex specialist analyzes what he has learned with the same precision he applies to the repair and adjustment of fine watches. It is not lost on him that he has expended 60 percent of his ammunition to neutralize 50 percent of his antagonists. It occurs to him that a single five-shot revolver might not be enough if there's a next time, and that there won't be much opportunity to reload.And what if he had been caught out of reach of his Smith? Thomas expands his defensive strategy. The .38 is joined by a trio of .357 Magnum revolvers: a Colt Python, a Smith & Wesson Model 19 Combat Magnum, and a Ruger Security-Six. He arrays them a few feet apart within the small perimeter of his workspace so there will always be one within reach no matter where he's standing.If he runs dry, he won't even think about reloading: he'll simply drop the empty gun and grab another fully loaded one. Professional Hit November 27, 1989. This time, it's the kind of professional hit that the NYPD Stakeout Squad warned you about-- a five-man team of thugs who know what they're doing. There's seeded backup, a perpetrator ambling around on the sidewalk outside, pretending to be a passerby. The outrider is in the driver's seat of the getaway car, at once a wheelman and a potential killer who can murderously interdict responding officers, or go inside with heavy weapons to rescue accomplices who are captured inside the premises. The remaining three perpetrators comprise the raid team.It opens hot, fast and ugly. One of the perpetrators opens up on Lance Thomas without warning, firing a semiautomatic pistol, hitting him four times with eight rounds fired. Three of the .25 ACP bullets bite into Thomas' right shoulder, a fourth into his neck. The watchmaker grabs the nearest revolver, the Ruger .357, missing with the first shot but scoring with the next five.The gunman falls to the floor and so does the Security-Six: it has clicked empty. Thomas drops it, lunging for the next nearest weapon, the snubnose .38 that had saved him last time.Now he engages the second suspect, who is shooting at him. Thomas shoots back. That gun, too, runs dry. He hasn't hit his antagonist, but he hasn't been hit either, and the second robber is in no mood to continue the gunfight.The third inside suspect opens fire at Thomas. Wounded, but furious and still in the fight, the storekeeper grabs his third gun of the shootout, another .357. As Paul Kirchner relates it, he "empties it into" the third gunman. That offender goes down.The little watch shop is filled with the stench of smokeless powder and the reek of blood. The second offender wants no more of being shot at, and has abjured from the conflict.Outside, the two additional robbers realize that three of their colleagues have gone inside for an easy score, there has been a long volley of explosive gunfire, and only one has come back out alive. Whatever is in there, they don't want any part of it. The three surviving robbers flee. Inside, only one of the combatants is standing. Bleeding but defiant, the wounded Lance Thomas looks down at the two men he has killed. In the course of the fight, he has fired 19 shots. Charmed Life. Some people are beginning to think that Thomas bears a charmed life. Since an enemy sent into ignominious retreat can certainly be said to have been vanquished, the score now stands at Lance Thomas 7, Armed Robbers 0.However, it occurs to the storekeeper that his survival armory might need another firepower upgrade. This time, he decides to try semiautomatic pistols. He buys four, all SIGs, that operate the same way. One is the compact nine-shot P-225 9mm. The other three are assorted versions of the P-220 8-shot .45 auto.As the Turning Point cameras pan across his gun collection, we see the American-style of SIG with push-button magazine release as well as the European-style with the butt heel mag release. There is a Browning BDA, which is a European P-220 by a different name.Magazine release styles don't matter. Lance Thomas still doesn't plan to reload. If one gun runs dry, he'll reach for another. He now has up to eight handguns readily available. Fully loaded, they hold 56 rounds between them.With his plan, they all function essentially the same: grab gun, index weapon on target, pull trigger until it stops shooting, grab additional guns, repeat as necessary. Thomas commits himself to constant practice in accessing one or another of his defense guns from any conceivable position. Two Year Break December 4, 1991. It has been more than two years since the last incident. Some others would be complacent by now. Not Lance Thomas, who has learned that vigilance equals survival, and from the beginning has realized he is responsible for the safety of his customers.On this date a male perpetrator strides in, accompanied by a female accomplice who shows no weapon. The man pulls a loaded Glock pistol. He points the gun at Thomas and orders him to be motionless.No way. Thomas goes for his gun.The perpetrator fires first, pumping a 9mm bullet through Thomas' neck, drilling a wound channel that is just a fraction of an inch from being fatal. But now, Thomas has reached his rarest pistol, the little P225, and he is firing back.The watch shop proprietor has been forced into an awkward hold on the gun, and he can only fire three rounds-- all straight into the chest of his opponent-- before his imperfect grasp causes the usually reliable SIG 9mm to jam. Without missing a beat, he drops it and grabs one of its big brothers, which he fires into the opponent five more times until the armed robber falls and stops trying to commit murder.Frozen in terror, the female accomplice offers no violence. It's over.Wounded, Lance Thomas will recover. Not so the criminal who shot him, who will die of the eight rounds-- all hits, eight for eight-- that the armed citizen has inflicted with his two SIG-Sauer pistols. Ever Vigilant February 20,1992. It has been just over two and a half months since the last shootout. Lance Thomas has remained vigilant. Now, his wariness pays off. Two armed perpetrators enter the store. As soon as Thomas sees the automatic pistol in one of their hands, he reflexes to his nearest pistol, one of the P-220s. This perpetrator goes down fast, hit with what author Kirchner describes as most of a "gunload" of .45 ACP ammunition. Grabbing another P-220, Thomas engages the second armed robbery suspect and shoots him four times. The suspect falls. The danger is over. Both armed robbers are dead at the shopowner's hands. In four gun battles, Lance Thomas has fired 40-plus shots. He has killed five men, and wounded another. He has defeated a total of 11 perpetrators, either shot down or driven off in abject flight. He has been wounded five times. Word On The Street By now the word was out on the street. Some of those who had died by the blazing Thomas guns had been members of the organized street gangs that infest Los Angeles like an advanced, spreading cancer. They had declared war. They were going to rake Lance Thomas' watch shop with drive-by shootings and massacre his customers for revenge. The armed citizen had to make a difficult decision. Thomas had stood up to the armed criminals for some 29 months. He was ready to continue to risk his own life, however, he felt he had no right to risk the lives of customers and bystanders in the face of this latest threat. Reluctantly, sadly, he switched to business by mail order and Internet. The watch shop was closed. The big Rolex sign that some believed had attracted the robbers like flies came down. Lance Thomas moved. The epoch of a modern urban gunfighter had ended. Ayoob's Analysis There were those who said that Lance Thomas was a vigilante, something out of the Death Wish movies. Nothing could be further from the truth. Thomas never went looking for men to harm. The harm came to him, and he warded it off. None of the predators he shot had been hunted down and self-righteously executed. Each and every one of them had died from a sudden and acute failure of the victim selection process. This is why each and every one of the deaths Thomas inflicted was ruled a justifiable homicide. "It is not unusual for critics of the American scene to deplore what they hold to be an uncivilized toleration of personal violence in our society," Jeff Cooper once wrote. "Violent crime is not so much the issue, but rather the use of violence by socially acceptable persons in self-defense, in the righting of wrongs, and in meeting challenging situations. Such critics feel that Americans are too ready to ignore the police and handle their emergencies personally; and that, further, this barbarous attitude is encouraged, rather than inhibited, by our tradition." Some thought Lance Thomas a dangerous man. I spoke at length with one of the producers of the Turning Point episode that featured the fighting watchmaker. He was appalled that Thomas had said that one reason he had survived these nearly unsurvivable experiences was that he had been "ready to die." I explained that the producer had misunderstood the point. "Ready to die" didn't mean wanting to die in the suicidal-cum-homcidal sense; it meant prepared to die if necessary. There are some things worth dying for. Freedom, including the right to make your living doing your chosen work. Protection of others from violence. There were times when innocent friends and customers were in the store when the attackers came in with guns in their hands and their fingers on the triggers. There were doubtless gang-bangers in Los Angeles who thought they had won, having driven off the man they feared. If so, they were deluding themselves. Lance Thomas had stood against 11 of them and won, 11 to nothing. Each time he had been against multiple intruders, never less than two-to-one odds and as high as five-to-one. He came back each time, resolute and defiant.He left only when, the threats to himself extended and went past him, reaching out to innocent customers and bystanders whom he could not protect out on the sidewalk if the promised drive-by shootings had come to pass. The same man who risked his life to stand up for his rights and to protect others, chose to give up the shop he had created, the shop he loved, for the sake of the safety of strangers.Lance Thomas was a better and more moral man than any of the street gang cowards who hated him, a better and more moral man than any of the commentators who criticized him from the safety of their office desks.Tactical LessonsSome observers in the gun world thought Thomas would have been better served to carry his hardware on his person instead of stashing the guns in strategic locations in the shop The theory is that when the gun is on your person. it is always where you can reach it, and also simultaneously secured from unauthorized personnel.The criticism has some validity; In his third gunfight, if Thomas could have quick-drawn from his hip instead of having to stretch and reach for his SIG, he might not have taken that first gunshot to the neck, which came so close to killing him.We each bring our own preferences and habits to these topics. This writer prefers to keep the gun on his person, and has done so since growing up in a jewelry store much like the one in this case. Yet Lance Thomas' story hits close to home, because my father used he same strategy of keeping his handguns seeded at various places in the store plus a shotgun in the back room.There are times-- when seated behind a watch repair bench, for example-- when it might be faster and easier to reach for a holster nailed to the side of the bench than to draw from one's belt.For the most part, the strategy worked for Thomas. It worked better the more guns he had. Toward the end, according to the Turning Point people, he had a gun about every three feet. His workplace was fairly compact. The larger the workspace, the more room there is for the good guy to move, the more sense it makes for the gun to be on the shopkeeper's person instead of in a fixed location.Practice is critical. Turning Point filmed Thomas at a shooting range, firing rapidly from a Weaver stance. Kirchner notes that he constantly practiced quick-draw of his guns from their resting places. There can be no doubt that both of these practices helped Lance Thomas survive his gunfights. Firepower was a factor in all but the first, three-shot incident. The next three averaged more than a dozen shots by Thomas per incident. Add in the first shooting, and it still comes out to at least 10 shots per gunfight fired by the defender, 19 shots in one incident. Once the scope of the predictable threat became evident to him, Thomas was wise indeed to upgrade his firepower from the five-shot, snubnose revolver he started with. Some critics-- usually ensconced safely in armchairs-- opine that five shots should be enough for five perpetrators. Well, well. One of Thomas antagonists apparently thought that four shots would be enough for one Rolex dealer: he shot Thomas four times. Thomas sucked up the four gunshot wounds and then proceeded to kill the man who shot him. Others might suggest, "He just didn't use the right ammo." Really? Unimpressed with the effects of conventional .38 Special ammo in his first shooting, he went to the Glaser Safety Slug, and was underwhelmed with its performance the next time, out in the real world. He shot men multiple times with 9mm and 45 automatics and with .357 Magnum revolvers and had to shoot them again and again. Sometimes, against dangerous men in the heat of battle, nothing less than multiple serious gunshot wounds will short-out the attack. If we learn nothing else from Lance Thomas' four gunfights, we cannot miss learning this. Will. The predators had strong motivations-- greed, perhaps anger, certainly lust for power over others. When fought back against by surprise, some exhibited great will to live, as evidenced by the fact that it took so many of the good guy's bullets to put them down. But one reason Lance Thomas prevailed against them was that his will to survive, to prevail, to stand up for the right thing was greater than their will to harm him. Outnumbered, drawing against drawn guns, sometimes wounded seriously at the opening of the encounters, Thomas never lost his indomitable will to survive, to fight, to prevail. This, in the last analysis, may be the most important lesson each of us can draw from his experiences. Again, a quote from Col. Cooper. "It is very difficult for a normal man to realize that he is suddenly in danger of death. The time it takes him to realize this and act upon it may be too long to save his life. Thus the prime quality of the gunfighter-- more important than either marksmanship or manual speed-- is the instant readiness to react to a threat." Amen. The subject of this article had this trait. It obviously kept him alive. Final Thoughts This is one of the very few "Ayoob Files" installments I have written without debriefing the survivor. I tried more than once to reach Thomas, and was unable to make contact. Given the many death threats and the unwelcome press attention, Thomas guards his privacy. It wasn't that he was hiding in terror from his antagonists. It was more that he took no pleasure in being lionized for his acts, and simply wanted to live his own life, quietly and peacefully. It was all he had ever wanted when the men he had to kill in self- defense forced their way into his life. In the end, I had to respect his obvious wishes, and I abandoned the search. Thus, the information above comes primarily from Turning Point and the excellent Kirchner book.Kirchner's The Deadliest Men celebrates strong individuals who used deadly force righteously. You'll not find Jack the Ripper, Henry Lee Lucas, or the Boston Strangler in those pages, deadly as they were. The Deadliest Men is a collection of heroes and heroines. Lance Thomas well deserves his place in the book. The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long |
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OT- The Deadliest Men
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OT- The Deadliest Men
Gunner wrote in
: snip Over a period of less than 3 years, Thomas was involved in four gun battles against a total of 11 known suspects. He shot six of them, killing five. The watch dealer himself was wounded on two of these occasions, taking a total of five rounds. There are many lessons that the rest of us can learn: Lessons of long-term strategy and short-term tactics; of gun selection and ammunition effectiveness; and, above all, of courage under fire in the moment, and of determination over the long haul. snip Since this is already an OT thread... I was in a punk band in high school that was named Watchmaker, the name being a result of our singer reading about this guy. I knew the general idea of what happened to him, but hadn't read the whole story before. chem -- * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * take out the trash to reply by email http://www.xanga.com/chemgurl |
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OT- The Deadliest Men
In article , DAUBIE1 says...
Hi, - NOT IN NY STATE!! - Try doing that self defense crap will land you in jail 95% of the time! Maybe if you wait to get wounded, then attack---MAYBE! - You better damn well be able to prove lethal force was necessary! - Example: that Getz guy a few years back. Goetz. Bernard Goetz. Please don't get gunner started on him! As an aside, I bet those folks on the LIRR who were on the receiving end had wished that bernie was on that train with them! ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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OT- The Deadliest Men
On 12 Mar 2004 05:08:25 -0800, jim rozen
wrote: In article , DAUBIE1 says... Hi, - NOT IN NY STATE!! - Try doing that self defense crap will land you in jail 95% of the time! Maybe if you wait to get wounded, then attack---MAYBE! - You better damn well be able to prove lethal force was necessary! - Example: that Getz guy a few years back. Goetz. Bernard Goetz. Please don't get gunner started on him! As an aside, I bet those folks on the LIRR who were on the receiving end had wished that bernie was on that train with them! ================================================= = please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================= = When I made the decision to start carrying a pistol 12 years ago, I sat down and envisioned various scenarios I might encounter, and what action I planned to take, and decided whether I could live with the possible outcomes. For example, if I'm in a convenience store and one or more robbers come in, my plan is to stay low profile and leave 'em alone, unless they look like they are going to hurt someone, or they start to search people. Then I open fire, with no warning which could result in hostage situation or get me or innocents killed. If they were to search me and find my weapon, standard criminal response would be to kill me because in their minds it's likely I'm an off-duty cop. It's happened many times. So a search triggers me to action. If I'm outside and it looks like I'm going to be robbed, I let 'em have my wallet unless I believe they intend violence or search. Had I been on that LIRR train, the guy would have gotten off one or two shots, but after that either I would have stopped him, or he would at least have spent a lot of his ammo on me rather than those poor unprepared people. Same thing if I had been at Perimeter Mall here in ATL a few years back when a nutcase decided to kill all the white folks he could find in the food court. I ate there regularly, but didn't that day. I wonder how many people I could have saved had I chosen lunch differently. Of course, the media would then have concentrated on reporting how it got me killed, rather than how many innocents were spared by my action. Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. |
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OT- The Deadliest Men
Makes you wonder what would happen if more citizens would carry. I content
that the crime rate would drop dramatically. Lane |
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OT- The Deadliest Men
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OT- The Deadliest Men
On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:37:18 -0500, Mike Patterson
wrote: On 12 Mar 2004 05:08:25 -0800, jim rozen wrote: In article , DAUBIE1 says... Hi, - NOT IN NY STATE!! - Try doing that self defense crap will land you in jail 95% of the time! Maybe if you wait to get wounded, then attack---MAYBE! - You better damn well be able to prove lethal force was necessary! - Example: that Getz guy a few years back. Goetz. Bernard Goetz. Please don't get gunner started on him! As an aside, I bet those folks on the LIRR who were on the receiving end had wished that bernie was on that train with them! ================================================ == please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================ == When I made the decision to start carrying a pistol 12 years ago, I sat down and envisioned various scenarios I might encounter, and what action I planned to take, and decided whether I could live with the possible outcomes. For example, if I'm in a convenience store and one or more robbers come in, my plan is to stay low profile and leave 'em alone, unless they look like they are going to hurt someone, or they start to search people. Then I open fire, with no warning which could result in hostage situation or get me or innocents killed. If they were to search me and find my weapon, standard criminal response would be to kill me because in their minds it's likely I'm an off-duty cop. It's happened many times. So a search triggers me to action. If I'm outside and it looks like I'm going to be robbed, I let 'em have my wallet unless I believe they intend violence or search. Had I been on that LIRR train, the guy would have gotten off one or two shots, but after that either I would have stopped him, or he would at least have spent a lot of his ammo on me rather than those poor unprepared people. Same thing if I had been at Perimeter Mall here in ATL a few years back when a nutcase decided to kill all the white folks he could find in the food court. I ate there regularly, but didn't that day. I wonder how many people I could have saved had I chosen lunch differently. Of course, the media would then have concentrated on reporting how it got me killed, rather than how many innocents were spared by my action. Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. Very good post and reasonable. One of the survivors of the Lubby's massacre in Texas ( a woman who had a ccw but was not allowed to carry it in the resturant as they sold spirts) watched her parents both be killed and has commented much the same. In fact..she was responsible for the change in Texas law and the Shall Issue CCW that they now enjoy. Many people seem to forget, there are few dangerous weapons. There are however Dangerous Men. That watchmaker is a prime example. Soaking up bullets and still determined to shoot his attackers. Thats a hard core dude. Gunner Gunner The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long |
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OT- The Deadliest Men
On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:24:38 GMT, Gunner
wrote: On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 11:37:18 -0500, Mike Patterson wrote: On 12 Mar 2004 05:08:25 -0800, jim rozen wrote: In article , DAUBIE1 says... Hi, - NOT IN NY STATE!! - Try doing that self defense crap will land you in jail 95% of the time! Maybe if you wait to get wounded, then attack---MAYBE! - You better damn well be able to prove lethal force was necessary! - Example: that Getz guy a few years back. Goetz. Bernard Goetz. Please don't get gunner started on him! As an aside, I bet those folks on the LIRR who were on the receiving end had wished that bernie was on that train with them! =============================================== === please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com =============================================== === When I made the decision to start carrying a pistol 12 years ago, I sat down and envisioned various scenarios I might encounter, and what action I planned to take, and decided whether I could live with the possible outcomes. For example, if I'm in a convenience store and one or more robbers come in, my plan is to stay low profile and leave 'em alone, unless they look like they are going to hurt someone, or they start to search people. Then I open fire, with no warning which could result in hostage situation or get me or innocents killed. If they were to search me and find my weapon, standard criminal response would be to kill me because in their minds it's likely I'm an off-duty cop. It's happened many times. So a search triggers me to action. If I'm outside and it looks like I'm going to be robbed, I let 'em have my wallet unless I believe they intend violence or search. Had I been on that LIRR train, the guy would have gotten off one or two shots, but after that either I would have stopped him, or he would at least have spent a lot of his ammo on me rather than those poor unprepared people. Same thing if I had been at Perimeter Mall here in ATL a few years back when a nutcase decided to kill all the white folks he could find in the food court. I ate there regularly, but didn't that day. I wonder how many people I could have saved had I chosen lunch differently. Of course, the media would then have concentrated on reporting how it got me killed, rather than how many innocents were spared by my action. Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me. Very good post and reasonable. One of the survivors of the Lubby's massacre in Texas ( a woman who had a ccw but was not allowed to carry it in the resturant as they sold spirts) watched her parents both be killed and has commented much the same. In fact..she was responsible for the change in Texas law and the Shall Issue CCW that they now enjoy. Spirits at Luby's ? Their ice tea is to kill for. Can't be, all those yrs. and I could have had a bourbon & coke with the tea? I'm really surprised no one else had a gun in there... Many people seem to forget, there are few dangerous weapons. There are however Dangerous Men. That watchmaker is a prime example. Soaking up bullets and still determined to shoot his attackers. Thats a hard core dude. Gunner Gunner The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long |
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OT- The Deadliest Men
In article , Mike Patterson says...
Had I been on that LIRR train, the guy would have gotten off one or two shots, but after that either I would have stopped him, or he would at least have spent a lot of his ammo on me rather than those poor unprepared people. They did wrestle him to the floor after he had expended his ammunition. I don't believe that the state should have a death penalty, but in this case if a private citizen should happen to accidentally pop the guy during the confusion and then walk away, I would be hard-pressed to identifiy exactly what he looked like. "It was just so fast and confusing, I'm not sure if he was tall, short, thin fat, blond, bald, male, female." Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:19:37 GMT, Gunner
wrote: Sounds like NY State is a dangerous place to live if the predators are not allowed to be thinned out. But it's not. Crime in NYC and Buffalo (the big stats makers) is down. The rest of the state is more rural than most people realize and walking into a farm house without knocking is the same thing as suicide. Tthere are a lot of small towns in NY where no one locks their doors. -Carl |
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"Lane" lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote in message ... Makes you wonder what would happen if more citizens would carry. I content that the crime rate would drop dramatically. Lane I believe that fact has been proven already, both down the road a piece in Kennasaw, Ga. and some place up north.(?) What criminal in even half of their right mind would break into a house or try to accoust(sp) someone in a town/county/state that allows its citizens to arm themselves? OK, I'll let the genie out of the lamp and go ahead and ask Gunner what his deal is with Getz? Like of dislike? I can barely remember his deal, shot 3 or 4 thugs that were trying to rob him on a NYC subway, right? Don't remember if he got any time, though. Regards, Jim |
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OT- The Deadliest Men
Had I been on that LIRR train, the guy would have gotten off one or two shots, but after that either I would have stopped him, or he would at least have spent a lot of his ammo on me rather than those poor unprepared people. They did wrestle him to the floor after he had expended his ammunition. I don't believe that the state should have a death penalty, but in this case if a private citizen should happen to accidentally pop the guy during the confusion and then walk away, I would be hard-pressed to identifiy exactly what he looked like. "It was just so fast and confusing, I'm not sure if he was tall, short, thin fat, blond, bald, male, female." Jim That comment, while it probably does accurately reflect today's climate, makes me sad. Because you should remember exactly what he looks like. So that when the mayor presents him with a medal you'll be there to thank and congratulate him too. But you're right, it often doesn't work out that way. The police and DAs don't like people treading into their territory. Even if the guy is eventually acquitted, he'll have spent considerable time and money getting there. That stinks. I was watching a "cold case" (true) type show the other day, and the DA being interviewed said that he would not prosecute a case unless he was convinced himself of the person's guilt. I'd like to think all are like him, but I guess I'm a bit too cynical. My mind keeps going back to just after 9/11, when a federal official remarked that it seemed some of the passengers on the flight that crashed in PA might have "taken the law into their own hands". It struck me as an odd choice of words, as it seemed to me to imply some amount of disapproval. Actually, I'd be surprised if there were not some passengers or crew on the plane itself who urged the others to do nothing and to leave things to the authorities. John Martin |
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#14
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OT- The Deadliest Men
I can barely remember his deal,
shot 3 or 4 thugs that were trying to rob him on a NYC subway, right? Don't remember if he got any time, though. Jim, You might want to do a Google.com search on "Bernie Goetz". From what I remember he had been mugged on NYC subways previously so he started carrying a handgun with him while commuting. One day four young black punks attempted to rob him using sharpened screwdrivers and other items as weapons. Goetz pulled his revolver and started shooting. IIRC one of the assailants was shot in the back and paralyzed for life and a couple others were hurt but they survived. All the assholes had extensive records for various violent offenses etc. For a time Goetz was a hero and the crime rates in NYC dropped dramatically. However the powers that know what is best for all of us decided that the idea that private citizens should be allowed to defend themselves was too dangerous to be allowed. Goetz faced several charges that would have had him behind bars for the rest of his life if convicted of all of them. The jury acquitted him of all but one charge, that of having an illegal firearm (a law that in my opinion and many others is unconstitutional). In a civil trial Goetz lost a lawsuit and the puke he shot and paralyzed won a large judgement. After the incident the four pukes involved went on to committ many more crimes. Even the punk confined to a wheelchair committed a rape a few years later. IMHO Goetz should have been given a medal, a few hundred rounds of ammunition for his pistol and a lifetime pass for the NYC subway. Dennis |
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#15
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OT- The Deadliest Men
In article , Carl Byrns says...
But it's not. Crime in NYC and Buffalo (the big stats makers) is down. The rest of the state is more rural than most people realize and walking into a farm house without knocking is the same thing as suicide. Tthere are a lot of small towns in NY where no one locks their doors. Sometimes even in the city. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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#16
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OT- The Deadliest Men
On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 21:46:46 GMT, Carl Byrns
wrote: On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:19:37 GMT, Gunner wrote: Sounds like NY State is a dangerous place to live if the predators are not allowed to be thinned out. But it's not. Crime in NYC and Buffalo (the big stats makers) is down. Down from what? The rest of the state is more rural than most people realize and walking into a farm house without knocking is the same thing as suicide. Tthere are a lot of small towns in NY where no one locks their doors. -Carl So then you can blow an intruder out of his socks if he enters a home illegally. Gunner The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long |
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#17
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OT- The Deadliest Men
On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:45:00 -0500, "Jim C Roberts"
jimnthem_AT_comcast_DOT_net wrote: "Lane" lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote in message ... Makes you wonder what would happen if more citizens would carry. I content that the crime rate would drop dramatically. Lane I believe that fact has been proven already, both down the road a piece in Kennasaw, Ga. and some place up north.(?) What criminal in even half of their right mind would break into a house or try to accoust(sp) someone in a town/county/state that allows its citizens to arm themselves? OK, I'll let the genie out of the lamp and go ahead and ask Gunner what his deal is with Getz? Like of dislike? I can barely remember his deal, shot 3 or 4 thugs that were trying to rob him on a NYC subway, right? Don't remember if he got any time, though. Regards, Jim Ive never mentioned him. However..this being NYC, another suckhole in the fabric of the universe... http://www.heroism.org/class/1980/goetz.htm BERNARD GOETZ On December 22, 1984, Bernard Goetz, otherwise known as the "subway vigilante," shot four young men in a Manhattan subway car after he said the men threatened him and tried to rob him. The shooting became a national sensation, as many subway riders, concerned about subway muggings, applauded Goetz's actions. But others criticized Goetz as a racist because the four young men were African-American. Three years after the shooting, Goetz, a 39-year-old electronics specialist, was acquitted of attempted murder and assault, but was convicted of criminal possession of an unlicensed weapon and spent 250 days in jail. Goetz said he started firing because he thought the four men were about to rob him. Many suspected however, that Goetz acted as an "avenging angel" because he had been mugged twice before. The youths said they were panhandling money to play video games when they asked him for $5, not trying to rob him. One of the four men, Darrell Cabey, was paralyzed in the shooting. In reaction to a $50 million lawauit filed by Cabey's familiy, Goetz said in a December 20, 1994 Toronto Star article, "If you're injured, paralyzed or whatever while committing a violent crime against me, that's not my fault." After the verdict, Goetz' lawyer Barry Slotnick said, "I think the true message is that people have a right to protect and defend themselves under justifiable situations." Goetz said he wants to "go back to being an anonymous stranger in New York," said Slotnick in a June 17, 1987 Toronto Star article. Supporters and critics argued outside the courthouse immediately after the verdict. Anti-Goetz demonstrators chased his car, shouting, "Goetz is an oppressor, murder no more." Another man carried a sign, "Criminals, think twice or we will Goetz you." 11 years later Cabey sued Goetz in a civil action and won, being awarded $43 million in damages. Goetz filed for bankrupcy and later ran for Mayor of NYC on the Vegitarian Ticket...G In 1997 Goetz was reported "alive and well" and living in Massachusetts. Gunner The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long |
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#18
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#19
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#21
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OT- The Deadliest Men
Lane wrote:
Makes you wonder what would happen if more citizens would carry. I content that the crime rate would drop dramatically. Lane Sure, after a while, any way... |
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#22
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OT- The Deadliest Men
A city wide blackout at Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:24:38 GMT did not prevent Gunner
from posting to rec.crafts.metalworking the following: Many people seem to forget, there are few dangerous weapons. There are however Dangerous Men. I am the Weapon, the gun is just a tool. That watchmaker is a prime example. Soaking up bullets and still determined to shoot his attackers. Thats a hard core dude. Heard of an interview of a similar situation, was asked why he kept shooting after getting hit in the neck. "I wasn't dead yet." Give that man a Cigar! Or as John used to say "Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!" tschus pyotr -- pyotr filipivich "The world seldom needs saving. I, on the other hand, just might!" Mike Eglestone, tpg. 2001.06.01 |
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#23
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OT- The Deadliest Men
On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:15:40 GMT, pyotr filipivich
wrote: A city wide blackout at Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:24:38 GMT did not prevent Gunner from posting to rec.crafts.metalworking the following: Many people seem to forget, there are few dangerous weapons. There are however Dangerous Men. I am the Weapon, the gun is just a tool. That watchmaker is a prime example. Soaking up bullets and still determined to shoot his attackers. Thats a hard core dude. Heard of an interview of a similar situation, was asked why he kept shooting after getting hit in the neck. "I wasn't dead yet." Give that man a Cigar! Or as John used to say "Winner! Winner! Chicken Dinner!" tschus pyotr "You may find me one day dead in a ditch somewhere. But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass."~~ Tpr. M. Padgett |
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#24
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OT- The Deadliest Men
On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 05:51:12 GMT, Gunner
wrote: On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 21:46:46 GMT, Carl Byrns wrote: On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:19:37 GMT, Gunner wrote: Sounds like NY State is a dangerous place to live if the predators are not allowed to be thinned out. But it's not. Crime in NYC and Buffalo (the big stats makers) is down. Down from what? From The Bad Old Days when much of NYC (like Times Square) was a hooker and drug dealer heaven. Buffalo was pretty violent for a while there, too. I live near Syracuse, a city of about 100,000 that has a higher murder rate than NYC. That shouild change- a huge gang just went up the river for a long time, and the police are leaning hard on the other gangs. As of 2001, New York State is way down on the list of violent crime states (D.C. has pole position). In fact, NY is parked between Arizona and Oklahoma, at least according to one source: http://www.statehealthfacts.kff.org/cgi-bin/healthfacts.cgi?action=compare&category=Health+Sta tus&subcategory=Violent+Crime&topic=Violent+Crime+ Offenses -Carl |
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#25
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OT- The Deadliest Men
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:50:35 GMT, Carl Byrns
wrote: On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 05:51:12 GMT, Gunner wrote: On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 21:46:46 GMT, Carl Byrns wrote: On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:19:37 GMT, Gunner wrote: Sounds like NY State is a dangerous place to live if the predators are not allowed to be thinned out. But it's not. Crime in NYC and Buffalo (the big stats makers) is down. Down from what? From The Bad Old Days when much of NYC (like Times Square) was a hooker and drug dealer heaven. Buffalo was pretty violent for a while there, too. I live near Syracuse, a city of about 100,000 that has a higher murder rate than NYC. That shouild change- a huge gang just went up the river for a long time, and the police are leaning hard on the other gangs. As of 2001, New York State is way down on the list of violent crime states (D.C. has pole position). In fact, NY is parked between Arizona and Oklahoma, at least according to one source: http://www.statehealthfacts.kff.org/cgi-bin/healthfacts.cgi?action=compare&category=Health+Sta tus&subcategory=Violent+Crime&topic=Violent+Crime+ Offenses -Carl I guess in the bad old days I would try to avoid big cities or make sure I had a full tank so I didn't have to stop. I've even gone way out of the way so that I would never see NYC. I gas up before St. Louis and El Paso for sure. There is no way around Chicago and one time had to fill up with the gas nozzle in one hand and a rifle in the other. Those 10+ people standing around in the gas station parking lot at 2 am must have been sight see-ers. I've even been chased for hundreds of miles , both times having a topped off tank. That will make you start thinking about adding fuel storage. Nothing like running on empty at 100 mph and about to give up when the pursuer has to bail for gas. That one time I tried everything to get away from them , even passing over sized oil rig equipment on huge tractor trailers in the rain passing on the right. And thinking naw they can't be that obsessed to follow through something almost suicidal and they would pop out of the mist from the break down lane. I tried also the get off the highway and get right back on , but it didn't work. BTW, didn't have a gun that time or things would have gone a lot differently. LA must be scary at night. |
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#26
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OT- The Deadliest Men
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:50:35 GMT, Carl Byrns
wrote: On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 05:51:12 GMT, Gunner wrote: On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 21:46:46 GMT, Carl Byrns wrote: On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:19:37 GMT, Gunner wrote: Sounds like NY State is a dangerous place to live if the predators are not allowed to be thinned out. But it's not. Crime in NYC and Buffalo (the big stats makers) is down. Down from what? From The Bad Old Days when much of NYC (like Times Square) was a hooker and drug dealer heaven. Buffalo was pretty violent for a while there, too. I live near Syracuse, a city of about 100,000 that has a higher murder rate than NYC. That shouild change- a huge gang just went up the river for a long time, and the police are leaning hard on the other gangs. As of 2001, New York State is way down on the list of violent crime states (D.C. has pole position). In fact, NY is parked between Arizona and Oklahoma, at least according to one source: http://www.statehealthfacts.kff.org/cgi-bin/healthfacts.cgi?action=compare&category=Health+Sta tus&subcategory=Violent+Crime&topic=Violent+Crime+ Offenses -Carl New York state is NOT NYC. G Lets compare the crime rate in my town of 18,000 to lets say...HollyWood, per capita of course. G New York state is a nice place. NYC..well..if they were gonna give the East Coast an enema..thats one of the places they would put the hose. Gunner "Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal" |
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#27
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OT- The Deadliest Men
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:55:02 GMT, Gunner
wrote: New York state is NOT NYC. Well, duh. But the two big cities tend to skew stats a lot. NYC should be the 51st state (it has an operating budget bigger than a lot of nations). Lets compare the crime rate in my town of 18,000 to lets say...HollyWood, per capita of course. I already did big town/little town: "I live near Syracuse, a city of about 100,000 that has a higher murder rate than NYC." By the numbers, it's safer in bad old NYC than in upstate NY. G New York state is a nice place. NYC..well..if they were gonna give the East Coast an enema..thats one of the places they would put the hose. Nonesense. I've been in NYC and DC and DC is far worse (leading the country in violent crime... way to go!). -Carl |
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#28
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#29
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OT- The Deadliest Men
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:53:11 GMT, Sunworshiper wrote:
I guess in the bad old days I would try to avoid big cities or make sure I had a full tank so I didn't have to stop. I've even gone way out of the way so that I would never see NYC. I gas up before St. Louis and El Paso for sure. There is no way around Chicago and one time had to fill up with the gas nozzle in one hand and a rifle in the other. Those 10+ people standing around in the gas station parking lot at 2 am must have been sight see-ers. I've even been chased for hundreds of miles , both times having a topped off tank. That will make you start thinking about adding fuel storage. Nothing like running on empty at 100 mph and about to give up when the pursuer has to bail for gas. That one time I tried everything to get away from them , even passing over sized oil rig equipment on huge tractor trailers in the rain passing on the right. And thinking naw they can't be that obsessed to follow through something almost suicidal and they would pop out of the mist from the break down lane. I tried also the get off the highway and get right back on , but it didn't work. BTW, didn't have a gun that time or things would have gone a lot differently. LA must be scary at night. Watched too many Mad Max movies have you, Sunworshiper? Gary |
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#30
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OT- The Deadliest Men
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 22:29:40 GMT, Carl Byrns
wrote: On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:55:02 GMT, Gunner wrote: New York state is NOT NYC. Well, duh. But the two big cities tend to skew stats a lot. NYC should be the 51st state (it has an operating budget bigger than a lot of nations). Lets compare the crime rate in my town of 18,000 to lets say...HollyWood, per capita of course. I already did big town/little town: "I live near Syracuse, a city of about 100,000 that has a higher murder rate than NYC." By the numbers, it's safer in bad old NYC than in upstate NY. G New York state is a nice place. NYC..well..if they were gonna give the East Coast an enema..thats one of the places they would put the hose. Nonesense. I've been in NYC and DC and DC is far worse (leading the country in violent crime... way to go!). -Carl DC is already hosed....G Gunner "Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal" |
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#31
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OT- The Deadliest Men
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:40:11 +0800, Old Nick
wrote: On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 05:35:07 -0500 (EST), (DAUBIE1) vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email Hi, - NOT IN NY STATE!! - Try doing that self defense crap will land you in jail 95% of the time! Maybe if you wait to get wounded, then attack---MAYBE! - You better damn well be able to prove lethal force was necessary! - My point among others; in order to prove lethal force, you need to be dure the guy does not have a dummy gun. You also have to be a nasty, or very angry *******, very quickly, because you are goping to go for and aim a gun at t aguy who is already aiming a gun at you. Ah..not in the States you dont. The dummy gun is legally assumed to be a real one in cases of self defense. This is one of the reasons toy guns are required by law to have bright orange end of the barrel. Another point, which I think I said before. If guns were harder to get, then the punks would not have had guns. Punks can always get guns. Always have, always will. Drugs are illegal. Drugs and guns can be purchased on nearly any street corner. Even in good old Blimey. Another point. I can see where the watchmaker may be an angry *******. But he has been wounded, Many have been killed instead, gun or not. Yup..but those that fought back, went down swinging, or shooting, rather than simply butchered like a sheep. And most win. Fighting back generally makes the bad guy go away. Can we be sure that he was not being chosen simply _because_ he was a challenge? Why would I rob a store that was famous for being dangerous, when there are a hundred watchmakers in the town? Criminals tend to be stupid. Incredibly so. Most have the brain power of a ****ant. Common sense is rare among the breed. I used to be a cop. As the watchmaker started to discover, all that was happening was escalation; more and more and bigger and bigger guns. So he simply should have been killed out of hand after the first one or two robberies and it would have made you feel much better. Right? "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns!" And they do, even in YOUR country. "If guns are made easy to get, _every_ outlaw will have a gun! He will want to use it first. You have to prove he was going to, or had." Every outlaw can get a gun, and most do. In fact, lots of cities have criminal "gun rentals" where they rent one for the crime. You seem to think the genie can be put back in the bottle. No can do. Sorry. Gunner ************************************************* *** sorry .........no I'm not! remove ns from my header address to reply via email Does Bill Gates dream of electronic sheep? "Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal" |
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#32
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OT- The Deadliest Men
Greetings and Salutations.
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:32:18 GMT, Gunner wrote: On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:40:11 +0800, Old Nick wrote: On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 05:35:07 -0500 (EST), (DAUBIE1) vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email *snip* Ah..not in the States you dont. The dummy gun is legally assumed to be a real one in cases of self defense. This is one of the reasons toy guns are required by law to have bright orange end of the barrel. Another point, which I think I said before. If guns were harder to get, then the punks would not have had guns. Punks can always get guns. Always have, always will. Drugs are illegal. Drugs and guns can be purchased on nearly any street corner. Even in good old Blimey. I have to agree here. Unless there is some way to magically make not only guns, but, ammunition *and* the tools and materials to MAKE guns (I.E. Steel pipe, etc) disappear from the world, there is no way to keep someone who wants a gun from having one. Zip guns, constructed from a bit of wood, sheet metal and steel pipe have been made for decades (actually, on a side note, I was a bit amused to see that ONE source on the Net for instructions on making such a weapon, in the section on making a shotgun, says that to comply with gun laws the barrel has to be at least 18" long) While it might be a wonderful, utopian idea to look to a world free of gun violence, realistically it is not going to happen. People have been killing other people with tools as long as mankind has been on the planet. This is likely to continue for as long as mankind exists, because when push comes to shove, people are stupid and many have poor impulse control. I still maintain that the way to deal with this problem is not by banning guns and gun ownership. Rather it is by a serious effort on education and training - even, perhaps, instituting manditory military service (as Israel and other countries do). I am not fool enough to believe that this will eliminate gun violence in America (if for no other reason because stress builds up in a diverse society, and, stress can cause irrational actions). However, it would make it harder for folks to work from a position of prejudice when it comes to guns and their uses. Knowledge is power. Another point. I can see where the watchmaker may be an angry *******. But he has been wounded, Many have been killed instead, gun or not. Yup..but those that fought back, went down swinging, or shooting, rather than simply butchered like a sheep. And most win. Fighting back generally makes the bad guy go away. It seems to me that, in a simplistic fashion, there are basically two types of people. 1) The Sheeple, who can be herded about and killed with impunity because they are too bound up by their own fears and worries. 2) The Guardians, who are the folks who are willing (or stupid enough *smile*) to run into the burning building to save someone else. Those are the folks that WILL fight back. Sometimes fighting back is the wrong answer, as it simply infuriates the attacker and leads to worse results. However, in MOST cases, I agree...fighting back makes a person less of an attractive target. Can we be sure that he was not being chosen simply _because_ he was a challenge? Why would I rob a store that was famous for being dangerous, when there are a hundred watchmakers in the town? Criminals tend to be stupid. Incredibly so. Most have the brain power of a ****ant. Common sense is rare among the breed. I used to be a cop. I have never been a cop, but, it has been my observation that the idea of criminals LOOKING for a challenge is, in most cases, nonsense. They tend to go for the EASY target. Given a choice between a car that is locked and has the windows rolled up, and, an unlocked car with the keys in the ignition, guess which one will disappear faster? As the watchmaker started to discover, all that was happening was escalation; more and more and bigger and bigger guns. So he simply should have been killed out of hand after the first one or two robberies and it would have made you feel much better. Right? Maybe so...it is always easier to know what is the best way for SOMEBODY ELSE to live. Dave Mundt |
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#33
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OT- The Deadliest Men
Gunner wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 22:29:40 GMT, Carl Byrns wrote: On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:55:02 GMT, Gunner wrote: New York state is NOT NYC. Well, duh. But the two big cities tend to skew stats a lot. NYC should be the 51st state (it has an operating budget bigger than a lot of nations). Lets compare the crime rate in my town of 18,000 to lets say...HollyWood, per capita of course. I already did big town/little town: "I live near Syracuse, a city of about 100,000 that has a higher murder rate than NYC." By the numbers, it's safer in bad old NYC than in upstate NY. G New York state is a nice place. NYC..well..if they were gonna give the East Coast an enema..thats one of the places they would put the hose. Nonesense. I've been in NYC and DC and DC is far worse (leading the country in violent crime... way to go!). -Carl DC is already hosed....G Gumdrop, when is the last time you have ever been to either city? |
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#34
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OT- The Deadliest Men
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 01:32:46 -0500, Gary Coffman
wrote: On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:53:11 GMT, Sunworshiper wrote: I guess in the bad old days I would try to avoid big cities or make sure I had a full tank so I didn't have to stop. I've even gone way out of the way so that I would never see NYC. I gas up before St. Louis and El Paso for sure. There is no way around Chicago and one time had to fill up with the gas nozzle in one hand and a rifle in the other. Those 10+ people standing around in the gas station parking lot at 2 am must have been sight see-ers. I've even been chased for hundreds of miles , both times having a topped off tank. That will make you start thinking about adding fuel storage. Nothing like running on empty at 100 mph and about to give up when the pursuer has to bail for gas. That one time I tried everything to get away from them , even passing over sized oil rig equipment on huge tractor trailers in the rain passing on the right. And thinking naw they can't be that obsessed to follow through something almost suicidal and they would pop out of the mist from the break down lane. I tried also the get off the highway and get right back on , but it didn't work. BTW, didn't have a gun that time or things would have gone a lot differently. LA must be scary at night. Watched too many Mad Max movies have you, Sunworshiper? Gary I don't make up stories , matter of fact I'm a terrible liar. Every intelligent friend that knows me will say so. Even when I have to come up with a lie , I draw a blank. Some times I have to ask a friend to help me out. If my stories come across as unbelievable there's not much I can say. I have all the Mad Max movies from X-mas presents and have seen them a good 10 times. I shy away from scary movies , but the wife got me the uncut version of The Exorcist , I laughed all the way through it the other night. Fantasy movies suck , I rented The Lord of the Rings? And turned it off after ten minutes. How it won a gazillion awards is beyond me. Never did get into common comic books , my sis would get me under ground comics like Cheech Wizard , Iron Wood, Dirty Duck, and Leather Nun. I've had an abnormal life and felt like I've lived a couple of life times before 20. |
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#36
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OT- The Deadliest Men
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 17:19:53 GMT, (Dave Mundt) wrote:
Greetings and Salutations. On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:32:18 GMT, Gunner wrote: On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 11:40:11 +0800, Old Nick wrote: On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 05:35:07 -0500 (EST), (DAUBIE1) vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!: remove ns from my header address to reply via email *snip* Ah..not in the States you dont. The dummy gun is legally assumed to be a real one in cases of self defense. This is one of the reasons toy guns are required by law to have bright orange end of the barrel. Another point, which I think I said before. If guns were harder to get, then the punks would not have had guns. Punks can always get guns. Always have, always will. Drugs are illegal. Drugs and guns can be purchased on nearly any street corner. Even in good old Blimey. I have to agree here. Unless there is some way to magically make not only guns, but, ammunition *and* the tools and materials to MAKE guns (I.E. Steel pipe, etc) disappear from the world, there is no way to keep someone who wants a gun from having one. Zip guns, constructed from a bit of wood, sheet metal and steel pipe have been made for decades (actually, on a side note, I was a bit amused to see that ONE source on the Net for instructions on making such a weapon, in the section on making a shotgun, says that to comply with gun laws the barrel has to be at least 18" long) While it might be a wonderful, utopian idea to look to a world free of gun violence, realistically it is not going to happen. People have been killing other people with tools as long as mankind has been on the planet. This is likely to continue for as long as mankind exists, because when push comes to shove, people are stupid and many have poor impulse control. I still maintain that the way to deal with this problem is not by banning guns and gun ownership. Rather it is by a serious effort on education and training - even, perhaps, instituting manditory military service (as Israel and other countries do). I am not fool enough to believe that this will eliminate gun violence in America (if for no other reason because stress builds up in a diverse society, and, stress can cause irrational actions). However, it would make it harder for folks to work from a position of prejudice when it comes to guns and their uses. Knowledge is power. Another point. I can see where the watchmaker may be an angry *******. But he has been wounded, Many have been killed instead, gun or not. Yup..but those that fought back, went down swinging, or shooting, rather than simply butchered like a sheep. And most win. Fighting back generally makes the bad guy go away. It seems to me that, in a simplistic fashion, there are basically two types of people. 1) The Sheeple, who can be herded about and killed with impunity because they are too bound up by their own fears and worries. 2) The Guardians, who are the folks who are willing (or stupid enough *smile*) to run into the burning building to save someone else. Those are the folks that WILL fight back. Sometimes fighting back is the wrong answer, as it simply infuriates the attacker and leads to worse results. However, in MOST cases, I agree...fighting back makes a person less of an attractive target. Can we be sure that he was not being chosen simply _because_ he was a challenge? Why would I rob a store that was famous for being dangerous, when there are a hundred watchmakers in the town? Criminals tend to be stupid. Incredibly so. Most have the brain power of a ****ant. Common sense is rare among the breed. I used to be a cop. I have never been a cop, but, it has been my observation that the idea of criminals LOOKING for a challenge is, in most cases, nonsense. They tend to go for the EASY target. Given a choice between a car that is locked and has the windows rolled up, and, an unlocked car with the keys in the ignition, guess which one will disappear faster? As the watchmaker started to discover, all that was happening was escalation; more and more and bigger and bigger guns. So he simply should have been killed out of hand after the first one or two robberies and it would have made you feel much better. Right? Maybe so...it is always easier to know what is the best way for SOMEBODY ELSE to live. Dave Mundt Excellent post. Gunner "Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal" |
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OT- The Deadliest Men
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:21:43 GMT, Gunner
wrote: On 15 Mar 2004 09:36:40 -0800, (Duck Dog) wrote: Gunner wrote in message . .. On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 22:29:40 GMT, Carl Byrns wrote: On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:55:02 GMT, Gunner wrote: New York state is NOT NYC. Well, duh. But the two big cities tend to skew stats a lot. NYC should be the 51st state (it has an operating budget bigger than a lot of nations). Lets compare the crime rate in my town of 18,000 to lets say...HollyWood, per capita of course. I already did big town/little town: "I live near Syracuse, a city of about 100,000 that has a higher murder rate than NYC." By the numbers, it's safer in bad old NYC than in upstate NY. G New York state is a nice place. NYC..well..if they were gonna give the East Coast an enema..thats one of the places they would put the hose. Nonesense. I've been in NYC and DC and DC is far worse (leading the country in violent crime... way to go!). -Carl DC is already hosed....G Gumdrop, when is the last time you have ever been to either city? Bout 10 yrs ago. Why? Because you're so way off base on both cities that I just assumed you were making it up. My guess is you were nowhere near these cities, and you really ARE making it up. When was the last time you were in Bakersfield? 1985, (late July to be exact), although we only drove through the L.A. area. You see, I don't claim to know that much about the area, and so I'm not making uninformed comments about it. You should learn from this. Gunner "Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal" |
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OT- The Deadliest Men
Unless there is some way to magically
make not only guns, but, ammunition *and* the tools and materials to MAKE guns (I.E. Steel pipe, etc) disappear from the world, there is no way to keep someone who wants a gun from having one. Zip guns, I recall many years ago, betting someone I could make a gun that would kill someone with what I found in his garage workshop in 2 hours. It only tool about 45 min, IIRC. Pipe, match heads, fishing sinker and toy caps. Hammer powered with rubber bands. Shot a large hole through his garbage can and lodged in a stud in the garage wall. I won the bet & the argument. Greg Sefton |
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OT- The Deadliest Men
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:10:39 GMT, Sunworshiper
wrote: ||On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 01:32:46 -0500, Gary Coffman ||wrote: || ||On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:53:11 GMT, Sunworshiper wrote: ||I guess in the bad old days I would try to avoid big cities or make ||sure I had a full tank so I didn't have to stop. I've even gone way ||out of the way so that I would never see NYC. I gas up before St. ||Louis and El Paso for sure. There is no way around Chicago and one ||time had to fill up with the gas nozzle in one hand and a rifle in the ||other. Those 10+ people standing around in the gas station parking lot ||at 2 am must have been sight see-ers. I've even been chased for ||hundreds of miles , both times having a topped off tank. That will ||make you start thinking about adding fuel storage. Nothing like ||running on empty at 100 mph and about to give up when the pursuer has ||to bail for gas. That one time I tried everything to get away from ||them , even passing over sized oil rig equipment on huge tractor ||trailers in the rain passing on the right. And thinking naw they can't ||be that obsessed to follow through something almost suicidal and they ||would pop out of the mist from the break down lane. I tried also the ||get off the highway and get right back on , but it didn't work. BTW, ||didn't have a gun that time or things would have gone a lot ||differently. LA must be scary at night. So what is it about you that made them want to chase you so badly? Rex in Fort Worth |
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OT- The Deadliest Men
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:19:07 GMT, Duck Dog wrote:
Gumdrop, when is the last time you have ever been to either city? Bout 10 yrs ago. Why? Because you're so way off base on both cities that I just assumed you were making it up. My guess is you were nowhere near these cities, and you really ARE making it up. Gunner's spot-on about DC. -Carl |
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