Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default fillet knife blade's geometry?

Del's trying to make a fillet knife from a full-hard power hacksaw
blade and me being a desert-rat, don't know nuthin' about fillet
knives and can't help.

The easiest way to go about this I believe is if there are common
factory-made fillet knives out there that have certain properties
you like, used as examples we could check out, so the descriptions
wouldn't be so difficult.

What do you think?

Got any ideas about fillet knives you'd like to share?

If you could take your favorite parts of a few different factory
fillet knives and put them together in one knife, what parts would
that be?

Are there any special edge-angle changes you make to your own
factory-made fillet knives?

Alvin in AZ
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Del Cecchi
 
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Default fillet knife blade's geometry?


wrote in message ...
Del's trying to make a fillet knife from a full-hard power hacksaw
blade and me being a desert-rat, don't know nuthin' about fillet
knives and can't help.

The easiest way to go about this I believe is if there are common
factory-made fillet knives out there that have certain properties
you like, used as examples we could check out, so the descriptions
wouldn't be so difficult.

What do you think?

Got any ideas about fillet knives you'd like to share?

If you could take your favorite parts of a few different factory
fillet knives and put them together in one knife, what parts would
that be?

Are there any special edge-angle changes you make to your own
factory-made fillet knives?

Alvin in AZ


Fillet knives seem to be similar to flexible boning knives. I am not
sure exactly what the best shape is. They need to be flexible so they
can be held flat against the cutting board to remove the skin, relatively
narrow (which mine isn't particularly) to turn the corner from cutting
down to the backbone to cutting along the backbone, and able to cut rib
bones or other bones and scales. And do all that for as many fish as
possible before needing sharpening.

The buck fillet knife isn't bad.

I'll put some wood handles on what I got with epoxy or gorilla glue. If
I need to work on the shape or thickness and they are in the way, then
removal and redoing won't be a big chore. I even considered just
wrapping with tape, prison style.

del


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Default fillet knife blade's geometry?

15 degrees at the edge and thin enough to that point that the 15 is not
a huge transition from body to edge.
In other words if you are not carefullly holding 15 degrees your
abrasives will scratch the rest of the blade.

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Del Cecchi
 
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Default fillet knife blade's geometry?


wrote in message
oups.com...
15 degrees at the edge and thin enough to that point that the 15 is not
a huge transition from body to edge.
In other words if you are not carefullly holding 15 degrees your
abrasives will scratch the rest of the blade.

That isn't a concern. That stuff is so hard I can hardly shape it. And
a few scratches don't bother me. I am more interested in shaping, etc.


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Default fillet knife blade's geometry?

wrote:
15 degrees at the edge and thin enough to that point that the 15
is not a huge transition from body to edge.
In other words if you are not carefullly holding 15 degrees your
abrasives will


That's exactly the sort of insight/opinion we're looking for!

Anyone else got an opinion?

Alvin in AZ
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Default fillet knife blade's geometry?

Hi Alvin,
I'm wondering if a full hard power hacksaw blade might be a bit too
stiff to make a good fillet knife, I had my best results using the
spring steel body material of a bi-metal bandsaw blade,, (the part you
have left after grinding the high speed steel teeth off) The 1 1/2 X
..042 blades seemed to work the best for me for full size fillet knives
and the 1 1/4 X .035 blades worked real good for making specialty
blades for removing the Y bones from nothern pike and muskies.


Bear in MN

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Default fillet knife blade's geometry?

wrote:
I'm wondering if a full hard power hacksaw blade might be a bit
too stiff to make a good fillet knife, I had my best results
using the spring steel body material of a bi-metal bandsaw
blade,, (the part you have left after grinding the high speed
steel teeth off) The 1 1/2 X .042 blades seemed to work the best
for me for full size fillet knives and the 1 1/4 X .035 blades
worked real good for making specialty blades for removing the Y
bones from nothern pike and muskies.
Bear in MN


James P Crombie wrote:
I'll second that, I had a couple of power hacksaw blades once apon
a time :-) After several hours and burnt fingers plus a worn out
grinding wheel, I didn't have much to show for it. I would go for
the spring steel.


I'm not here to play "gotcha" but doggonit I gotta tell you. :/

Steel, iron and stainless steel and high speed steel all have the
same stiffness. What you are feeling is its thickness -and/or-
its yield point (in the case of iron and mild steel).

No kidding. :/

If you can't see it, this thread is as good a place as any to get
that straightened out.

Here is a page from a local knife firm and their fillet knives
http://www.grohmannknives.com/pages/fillet.html

Those pictures raise the questions I was planning to ask today.

Flat ground the best you suppose?

They look flat ground to me.

Do you see a hollow-ground blade being a problem?

What do you think?

Hollow ground blades are easier to maintain an acute angle to the
edge, but with the wear rate of HSS that's really not and issue here
(and I ain't kiddin''bout that neither get it right and it's good
for life (if you don't break it or lose it).

If you can make one, you can make another even better than the
first?

Re-reading Bear's post...
7/8" wide .050" thick full-hard (65hrc) power hacksaw blades are
avaiable along with .032" ones too but they are pretty stinkin
narrow, look almost like a hand hacksaw blade.

Del's working with a 1+1/8" wide .062" thick Simonds.

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/hosting/Delsfirst1.jpg
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/hosting/Delsfirst2.jpg

It's a used railroad rail saw blade, see where the base of the rail
scraped off the paint?

--------------

As far as metal removal... the answer is... "little hand grinder"
sportin' a Norton-NorZon wheel and to go along with that, a heavy
duty "mounted point dresser". Or a regular "star wheel" dresser
that held down somehow.

Clamp the blade to a board and grind it like you mean business.

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/dresser.jpg

Those are 1/4-28 bolts and the front "wheels" are hard-1095 discs
from a paper shreader mounted on a slice of VW-36hp cam follower
(motorcycle wrist pin was my second choice. They are still in
the "wonder if they'll work worth anything" stage.

When the NorZon wheel stops cutting aggressively, stop and dress it.
When the wheel is cutting aggressively it's easy since there is lots
of "feed back" to work with.

Little progress = little feed-back.

In that case you're lost and not knowing what to do.

----------

Edge angle, blade thickness, blade width, hollow ground versus flat
ground... those are the questions that only experience can answer.

Please post your experiences.

Alvin in AZ
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Cliff Stamp
 
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Default fillet knife blade's geometry?

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 wrote:

Flat ground the best you suppose?


Traditionally they are flat ground, some are dual ground, essentially
running a hollow above the flat which is supposed to keep the blade contact
surface down and make the blade go through the fish easier. I have not used
them but it seems a reasonable idea.

Do you see a hollow-ground blade being a problem?


Not of the style you run. Some hollows have a "T" shape which wedge high at
the spine and they are annoying for deep cuts.

Edge angle, blade thickness, blade width, hollow ground versus flat
ground... those are the questions that only experience can answer.


The best I have seen are made by Phil Wilson, they are 1/8" thick, under an
inch wide, with a full distal taper so most of the working blade is much
thinner. The edge is 0.005" thick, he essentially grinds down to nothing and
sharpens back. The edge angle is about 10 to 15 degrees. How light depends on
what is being done, some use the same knife to remove the head and/or tail
so there is bone work being done, it also depends on the fish, if you are
just cutting flesh and small bones in cod and similar you can run more acute
angles. It also depends on the steel, most are softer stainless so you need
more of an angle to get the strength to prevent rippling/distortion.

--
Cliff Stamp
http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus


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Default fillet knife blade's geometry?

Sorry for the late reply, I've been away from my computer for a while,
All I know is that you get a nice flex / resharpening frequency with a
56hrc blade and the 63hrc blade snapped when I tried putting a 9 inch
blade to about a 45 degree flex.

The 63hrc blade does make an exellent trout knife, it doesn't need to
flex like a fillet knife does,,, so if you can accurately temper (draw)
it back, yes the power hacksaw blade will work great.

If you are grinding it clamped to a board you most likely are getting
the blade hot enough to be drawing the hardness down a bit anyway,, but
you have to be real lucky to be able to do it that way consistantly
without burning the blade, although soaking the board with water might
help a bit as a heatsink.

I grind mine held in my bare hands with the blade supported with my
fingertips so when I start at 63 or 65rc I finish at the same hardness
because my fingers won't let me hold onto a blade much over 200degrees
F. (it's a very slow prossess)

When I read "full hard" in the first post I thought you meant to leave
it that hard so I may have miss-read your intent.

Happy grinding,
Bear

I'll catch back up with you in a week,, the ice just went out of the
lake my parents live by this past week,, I'm after some of those 2
pound crappies so I can test out my 10inch fillet knife.

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Default fillet knife blade's geometry?

In rec.knives wrote:
Sorry for the late reply, I've been away from my computer for a
while,


That's ok, some of you actually have a life away from newsgroups.

All I know is that you get a nice flex / resharpening frequency
with a 56hrc blade and the 63hrc blade snapped when I tried
putting a 9 inch blade to about a 45 degree flex.


If Del breaks the sucker, that's his problem.

But that isn't the question anyway.

What geometry would you suggest in a fillet blade?

Was the blade that you broke "full hard HSS" made from a power
hacksaw blade?

How thick and how wide was the blade on that broken blade?
Was it a forged blade heat treated by a bladesmith?

I have a full-hard tungsten HSS hand hacksaw blade here that can
flex more than 120 degrees. No kidding on any of that. The back
of that sucker absolutly cannot be filed. It's made in Sweden and
brags on the fact that it's tungsten HSS (and spark tests right).

The tungsten based HSS's are considered to have slightly less
strength and only slightly better edge holding.

So here we go again the flexibilty of the steel has mostly to
do with cross section.

The 63hrc blade does make an exellent trout knife, it doesn't need
to flex like a fillet knife does,,, so if you can accurately
temper (draw) it back, yes the power hacksaw blade will work
great.


Have you "drawn the temper back" on HSS like that before?

If you are grinding it clamped to a board you most likely are
getting the blade hot enough to be drawing the hardness down a bit
anyway,, but you have to be real lucky to be able to do it that
way consistantly without burning the blade, although soaking the
board with water might help a bit as a heatsink.

I grind mine held in my bare hands with the blade supported with
my fingertips so when I start at 63 or 65rc I finish at the same
hardness because my fingers won't let me hold onto a blade much
over 200degrees F. (it's a very slow prossess)


Oooo... what you just wrote is perfect for hardened carbon steel but
is not needed for HSS, it can handle the heat.

It takes 40 hours at 1200F for M2 HSS to be drawn down to 45hrc.
It takes 100 hours at 900F for M2 HSS to be drawn down to 64hrc.

That ain't a typo, Page-689 ASM's Tool Steels 4th Edition.

When I read "full hard" in the first post I thought you meant to
leave it that hard so I may have miss-read your intent.
Happy grinding,
Bear


Yes, we're completely knuts that's the whole point of making it
from a power hacksaw blade. The steel has already been heat treated
to high strength and at its best edge holding hardness by the
factory.

We want to use their heat treating knowledge and expensive equipment
to our advantage, even if it's just to cut up a stinky old fish.

That's why we're called "knife knuts"? :/

I'll catch back up with you in a week,, the ice just went out of
the lake my parents live by this past week,, I'm after some of
those 2 pound crappies so I can test out my 10inch fillet knife.


Cool.

Get back and tell us about it.

Compare this...

You've done enough hand hacksawing to know that a carbon steel
hacksaw blade with teeth at about ~65hrc will wear out pretty
dangged quick. And a high speed steel-toothed saw blade at about
the same hardness usually gets changed out when you get tired of
a kink in the blade, not because it quit cutting.

Am I anywhere close to your experience on that?

I've got several brands of all-hard (full-hard) hand hacksaw blades
around here and they are a hand-hacksawer's dream, they don't kink.

You push them hard enough they'll break.

If you push "un-breakable" type (carbon steel, or bi-metal or
"flexible HSS") hard enough it would break an all-hard one, the
un-breakable type would kink to beat heck and be ruined, anyway.

IME, the un-breakable type are weaker than the all-hard breakable
type. YMMV

Metallurgy theory agrees with me on that, BTW.

The all-hard ones cut straighter, in my expereince, it's true what
they say about the all-hard hacksaw blades cutting straighter than
the "un-breakable" kind. No kidding, see for yourself.

We (knife knuts) want to take advantage of the extra edge holding
ability HSS has over carbon steel at 65hrc. HSS holds its edge 5
to 7 times as long as high carbon steel at 65hrc according to
industry's sales pitches.

But knife blades aren't 65hrc from the factory, right?

They aren't hard like carbon steel taps and hacksaw blades, like
you're used to working with, they are much softer than that.

I drew the temper on a couple plain carbon steel hand hacksaw blade
to soften them up like a custom knife (~58 hrc) not as soft as the
typical factory knife. Yeah the factorys say they are that hard
but they weren't counting on you having access to a $10,000 Wilson
hardness tester, now were they?

It's to their advantage to fudge-toward the soft-side for production
reasons when they're grinding 10,000 knives per hour.

Ok, enough BS about the "about right for a knife blade is 58hrc"
knife magazine bull****, the ~58hrc carbon steel saw blades were
-forced!- to cut though 1/4 what the factory-hard ones would cut.

What number-value a guy could put on that is up for grabs, I put
"at least 4 times" but right away the ~58hrc ones didn't cut worth
anything.

Can you imagine drawing all your carbon steel taps for an hour at
525F so they'll "be easier to re-sharpen" -as sold to you- in the
knife magazines?

Until you get used to knives for certain cutting tasks that are hard
like a tap or hacksaw blade teeth, then you just don't know the
magic of them.

The extra hard knife blades cut into stuff that the soft ones won't
because the soft one's edge rolled so quick, you didn't really get a
chance to evaluate the original edge.

No kidding on that.

It's not just "edge holding" it's "cutting ability" or "edge
integrity" that makes it cut so extra good and keep cutting.

I'm not saying you can get this from a newsgroup post, it's
something you have to experience yourself to really get it.

Alvin in AZ
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Del Cecchi
 
Posts: n/a
Default fillet knife blade's geometry?


wrote in message ...
In rec.knives wrote:
Sorry for the late reply, I've been away from my computer for a
while,


That's ok, some of you actually have a life away from newsgroups.

All I know is that you get a nice flex / resharpening frequency
with a 56hrc blade and the 63hrc blade snapped when I tried
putting a 9 inch blade to about a 45 degree flex.


If Del breaks the sucker, that's his problem.

But that isn't the question anyway.

What geometry would you suggest in a fillet blade?

Was the blade that you broke "full hard HSS" made from a power
hacksaw blade?

How thick and how wide was the blade on that broken blade?
Was it a forged blade heat treated by a bladesmith?

I have a full-hard tungsten HSS hand hacksaw blade here that can
flex more than 120 degrees. No kidding on any of that. The back
of that sucker absolutly cannot be filed. It's made in Sweden and
brags on the fact that it's tungsten HSS (and spark tests right).

The tungsten based HSS's are considered to have slightly less
strength and only slightly better edge holding.

So here we go again the flexibilty of the steel has mostly to
do with cross section.

The 63hrc blade does make an exellent trout knife, it doesn't need
to flex like a fillet knife does,,, so if you can accurately
temper (draw) it back, yes the power hacksaw blade will work
great.


Have you "drawn the temper back" on HSS like that before?

If you are grinding it clamped to a board you most likely are
getting the blade hot enough to be drawing the hardness down a bit
anyway,, but you have to be real lucky to be able to do it that
way consistantly without burning the blade, although soaking the
board with water might help a bit as a heatsink.

I grind mine held in my bare hands with the blade supported with
my fingertips so when I start at 63 or 65rc I finish at the same
hardness because my fingers won't let me hold onto a blade much
over 200degrees F. (it's a very slow prossess)


Oooo... what you just wrote is perfect for hardened carbon steel but
is not needed for HSS, it can handle the heat.

It takes 40 hours at 1200F for M2 HSS to be drawn down to 45hrc.
It takes 100 hours at 900F for M2 HSS to be drawn down to 64hrc.

That ain't a typo, Page-689 ASM's Tool Steels 4th Edition.

When I read "full hard" in the first post I thought you meant to
leave it that hard so I may have miss-read your intent.
Happy grinding,
Bear


Yes, we're completely knuts that's the whole point of making it
from a power hacksaw blade. The steel has already been heat treated
to high strength and at its best edge holding hardness by the
factory.

We want to use their heat treating knowledge and expensive equipment
to our advantage, even if it's just to cut up a stinky old fish.

That's why we're called "knife knuts"? :/

I'll catch back up with you in a week,, the ice just went out of
the lake my parents live by this past week,, I'm after some of
those 2 pound crappies so I can test out my 10inch fillet knife.


Cool.

Get back and tell us about it.

Compare this...

You've done enough hand hacksawing to know that a carbon steel
hacksaw blade with teeth at about ~65hrc will wear out pretty
dangged quick. And a high speed steel-toothed saw blade at about
the same hardness usually gets changed out when you get tired of
a kink in the blade, not because it quit cutting.

Am I anywhere close to your experience on that?

I've got several brands of all-hard (full-hard) hand hacksaw blades
around here and they are a hand-hacksawer's dream, they don't kink.

You push them hard enough they'll break.

If you push "un-breakable" type (carbon steel, or bi-metal or
"flexible HSS") hard enough it would break an all-hard one, the
un-breakable type would kink to beat heck and be ruined, anyway.

IME, the un-breakable type are weaker than the all-hard breakable
type. YMMV

Metallurgy theory agrees with me on that, BTW.

The all-hard ones cut straighter, in my expereince, it's true what
they say about the all-hard hacksaw blades cutting straighter than
the "un-breakable" kind. No kidding, see for yourself.

We (knife knuts) want to take advantage of the extra edge holding
ability HSS has over carbon steel at 65hrc. HSS holds its edge 5
to 7 times as long as high carbon steel at 65hrc according to
industry's sales pitches.

But knife blades aren't 65hrc from the factory, right?

They aren't hard like carbon steel taps and hacksaw blades, like
you're used to working with, they are much softer than that.

I drew the temper on a couple plain carbon steel hand hacksaw blade
to soften them up like a custom knife (~58 hrc) not as soft as the
typical factory knife. Yeah the factorys say they are that hard
but they weren't counting on you having access to a $10,000 Wilson
hardness tester, now were they?

It's to their advantage to fudge-toward the soft-side for production
reasons when they're grinding 10,000 knives per hour.

Ok, enough BS about the "about right for a knife blade is 58hrc"
knife magazine bull****, the ~58hrc carbon steel saw blades were
-forced!- to cut though 1/4 what the factory-hard ones would cut.

What number-value a guy could put on that is up for grabs, I put
"at least 4 times" but right away the ~58hrc ones didn't cut worth
anything.

Can you imagine drawing all your carbon steel taps for an hour at
525F so they'll "be easier to re-sharpen" -as sold to you- in the
knife magazines?

Until you get used to knives for certain cutting tasks that are hard
like a tap or hacksaw blade teeth, then you just don't know the
magic of them.

The extra hard knife blades cut into stuff that the soft ones won't
because the soft one's edge rolled so quick, you didn't really get a
chance to evaluate the original edge.

No kidding on that.

It's not just "edge holding" it's "cutting ability" or "edge
integrity" that makes it cut so extra good and keep cutting.

I'm not saying you can get this from a newsgroup post, it's
something you have to experience yourself to really get it.

Alvin in AZ


I guess we will see if I break that poor feeble thing I sent the picture
of. Right now it is a little stiff for my taste but I figure I can
always take off some more, but it is hard to put steel back on.

Only fillet knife I ever broke was a buck lakemaster that broke when I
used the handle as a club to knock out a walleye that was flopping too
much. Held the blade carfully so as to not cut myself. I was surprised
when the handle and tang went flying. Buck sent me a new knife, free.

I have a Dick boning knife that is actually too flexible. So we will
see. I have to get a handle of some sort on this one. I think a piece
of 1 by 2 maple will be it for starters. Shape it up a little, get a
slot cut in it, and epoxy away. If I don't like it, it'll come off easy.

del


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Default fillet knife blade's geometry?

Right now it is a little stiff for my taste but I figure I can
always take off some more, but it is hard to put steel back on.
I have a Dick boning knife that is actually too flexible.
So we will see.


Wow Del, you had the answer all along!

Grind what flexibility you want into it, and call it good.

Steel's steel and anything other than a few odd ball situations
the geometry will work itself out while you get the metal thickness
down to the flexibility you want. -As long- as you keep one eye
peeled to form a wedge shape to the blade's cross section?

I have to get a handle of some sort on this one. I think a piece
of 1 by 2 maple will be it for starters. Shape it up a little,
get a slot cut in it, and epoxy away. If I don't like it, it'll
come off easy.
del


Later say, if you decide the handle you have on there, you want to
stay-on forever, drill some holes through it and epoxy in some pins?

Do what you want with it, when you want to do it.

That's the cool thing about making your own besides getting to make
it out of a steel that industry uses to cut stuff because it's the
doggone best.

Alvin in AZ
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Del Cecchi
 
Posts: n/a
Default fillet knife blade's geometry?

wrote:
Right now it is a little stiff for my taste but I figure I can
always take off some more, but it is hard to put steel back on.
I have a Dick boning knife that is actually too flexible.
So we will see.



Wow Del, you had the answer all along!

Grind what flexibility you want into it, and call it good.

Steel's steel and anything other than a few odd ball situations
the geometry will work itself out while you get the metal thickness
down to the flexibility you want. -As long- as you keep one eye
peeled to form a wedge shape to the blade's cross section?


I have to get a handle of some sort on this one. I think a piece
of 1 by 2 maple will be it for starters. Shape it up a little,
get a slot cut in it, and epoxy away. If I don't like it, it'll
come off easy.
del



Later say, if you decide the handle you have on there, you want to
stay-on forever, drill some holes through it and epoxy in some pins?

Do what you want with it, when you want to do it.

That's the cool thing about making your own besides getting to make
it out of a steel that industry uses to cut stuff because it's the
doggone best.

Alvin in AZ


Yes. It will be going canoeing with me in Quetico park soon. We will
see how it works, since I am the designated fish cutter.

--
Del Cecchi
"This post is my own and doesn’t necessarily represent IBM’s positions,
strategies or opinions.”


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Default fillet knife blade's geometry?

You are working with HHS,, Sorry, disreagard everything I said,, the
one I snapped was made from an ancient carbon steel power hacksaw
blade, it was about 1 inch wide by right close to .080 thick if I
remember correctly.

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Posted to rec.knives,rec.crafts.metalworking
Knives
 
Posts: n/a
Default fillet knife blade's geometry?

Most fillet knives are too bendy in my opinion. The fillet knife I was most
impressed with ever was lost.
It was made from a blank by Bob Engnath and the reason I liked it so much
was because it was about 50% stiffer than any other.
Bob made it that way without any prompting on my part but when I queried him
on it he surprised me by making a passionate statement about how fillet
knives were too floppy and therefore lacked control.
The spine was a full 1/8 inch thick near the handle, flat ground with a full
length distal taper all the way to the point so the flexibility changed
depending on if you were working near the tip or the handle. If you were
working on a small delicate fish you could take advantage of the flexibility
at the tip and if the fish was bigger you could use the blade closer to the
hilt and take advantage of the extra stiffness. This way you had a range to
work with. I gave it a rolled edge. I don't think fishermen care if the
blade is scratched.
Also the average fillet knife is about 3 inches too short
Daithi

wrote in message ...
wrote:
15 degrees at the edge and thin enough to that point that the 15
is not a huge transition from body to edge.
In other words if you are not carefullly holding 15 degrees your
abrasives will


That's exactly the sort of insight/opinion we're looking for!

Anyone else got an opinion?

Alvin in AZ



  #19   Report Post  
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Default fillet knife blade's geometry?

I've had a fair amout of practice grinding HSS, in grinding tool
blanks into metal cutting tools for the mill or the lathe,, even for a
shaper or two,,but have yet to make any knives from it with the
exception of two 1 1/4 inch blade chip carving blades for a woodworking
friend back when I was in tech school, made those from a parting tool
for a metal lathe,, I just ground the blades, he made his own handles,,
and said it worked out great for him.

Let me know how this project turns out,, I've often thought HSS would
work out well for a lot of different kinds of blades, (mostly while
carving mild steel with my Schrade Uncle Henry Bear Paw ) although I
was leaning more to hunting knives,, caping and skinning blades , just
never took the time to give it a good try. Nor the cost to get a new
parting tool of sufficient size to make a nice knife from.
Too many old files laying around for easy access for blade blanks I
guess.

Bear
BTW I noticed that fact about tapered tangs not helping the cutting
ability of a knife much too. only put it on one knife on purpose,, and
one to correct a wrap in heat treat that was all in the tang,, but I
did those the easy way,, with a surface grinder.

  #20   Report Post  
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Default fillet knife blade's geometry?

In rec.knives wrote:
I've had a fair amout of practice grinding HSS, in grinding tool
blanks into metal cutting tools for the mill or the lathe,, even
for a shaper or two,,but have yet to make any knives from it with
the exception of two 1 1/4 inch blade chip carving blades for a
woodworking friend back when I was in tech school, made those from
a parting tool for a metal lathe,, I just ground the blades, he
made his own handles,, and said it worked out great for him.


Cool.

I have an M42 HSS cutoff tool knife blade in the works.

....along with a thousand other things "in the works".

Let me know how this project turns out,, I've often thought HSS
would work out well for a lot of different kinds of blades,
(mostly while carving mild steel with my Schrade Uncle Henry Bear
Paw ) although I was leaning more to hunting knives,, caping and
skinning blades , just never took the time to give it a good try.
Nor the cost to get a new parting tool of sufficient size to make
a nice knife from.


All-hard power hacksaw blades are the way to go, IMO.

They are (unless it sez on it otherwise) M2 and the teeth are 64
to 65hrc. The "all hard" ones are that hard all the way to the
back. "for straight cuts" is the sales pitch.

As you know, HSS is the best stuff to be had for cutting stuff and
you might as well give it a try, if edge holding is what you want.

If you've compared an HSS hand hacksaw blade with a carbon steel
hand hacksaw blade, in edge holding, then you know what I'm talkin
about.

Cutting meat, it's even a bigger difference.

Too many old files laying around for easy access for blade blanks
I guess.


A file although better stuff than a carbon steel hacksaw blade is
still not the edge holder HSS is, even tho the full hard HSS at
~65hrc is not as hard as a file at 66+hrc.

Used to it was a major project to carefully grind down a good knife
blade from an all-hard power hacksaw blade but now it's not such a
big deal with a 4 or 4+1/2" hand grinder.

The trick is to be sure and get one of the "all hard" power hacksaw
blades.

David MacDonald has new ones at used
prices, out of production, CitCo brand from Canada.

Starrett RedStripes are still available at new prices.

If you get your hands on a used power hacksaw blade, use the corner
of an old file and file notches into the back, near the holes it
should be soft ~40hrc and everywhere else ~65hrc and relatively
unfilable.

Bear
BTW I noticed that fact about tapered tangs not helping the
cutting ability of a knife much too. only put it on one knife on
purpose,, and one to correct a wrap in heat treat that was all in
the tang,, but I did those the easy way,, with a surface grinder.


Yeah, and I actually spend as much time tappering the tang as hollow
grinding the blade. :/ Not a good pay off for just looks, IMO, but
still do it ever'once in a while anyway. Never said I was smart.

Where you at?

What would it cost to get a piece of annealed 1095, 16"x1"x.125"
surface ground down to ~.119 (~3mm) thick? Need it for pocket knife
blades.

O1 is avaiable in 3mm from MSC but the more I mess with that hi-Mn
stuff the less I like it. :/

Alvin in AZ


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Default fillet knife blade's geometry?

missed this somehow

So I'm praying for calmer waters
Bear


"pray in one hand and **** in the other and see which one fills up
first " -alvin

So how did it go with your fishing trip?
Get to fillet a bunch of fish?

PS the factory blades that I checked on the Wilson back when I was
working for the tool company all tested pretty soft too. only
exception was a broken Shrade "Bear Paw" lock back that tested out
at 63, I dropped the dern thing and it snapped right where the
grind starts,( I think it missed the temper cycle in the heat
treat some how)


Sounds like it.
It sure as heck didn't miss the cold treatment tho.

Way back in the early 80's (before I started studying metallurgy)
a friend had a Case Trapper where the spey blade somehow missed
getting tempering or something. It took and held an edge like crazy
right up until he was wittling down a new shovel handle and broke
the sucker.

Famous last words for that blade...
"i knew better than to use this blade for that, but used it anyway"

We'd talk about it, how he needed to save that blade for only
working cattle, but he just couldn't help himself, he -had- to
find out what it was capable of.

BTDT too :/

Alvin in AZ
ps- David MacDonald (CitCo brand) tested
65.5hrc under the de-carbed surface, that's one of the first
tests (out side of the factory) made on that new Wilson
pps- Nicholson said theirs were "64 to 65hrc" but I've never tested
anybodies all-hard power hacksaw blades that tested less than
64.5hrc
ppps- knives made from that stuff (M2) will friggin "hold an edge"
...believe it?
  #22   Report Post  
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Del Cecchi
 
Posts: n/a
Default fillet knife blade's geometry?


wrote in message ...
missed this somehow

So I'm praying for calmer waters
Bear


"pray in one hand and **** in the other and see which one fills up
first " -alvin

So how did it go with your fishing trip?
Get to fillet a bunch of fish?


I'll let you know about my fishing trip after memorial day. The ice is
off the lakes and we are going canoeing.



PS the factory blades that I checked on the Wilson back when I was
working for the tool company all tested pretty soft too. only
exception was a broken Shrade "Bear Paw" lock back that tested out
at 63, I dropped the dern thing and it snapped right where the
grind starts,( I think it missed the temper cycle in the heat
treat some how)


Sounds like it.
It sure as heck didn't miss the cold treatment tho.

Way back in the early 80's (before I started studying metallurgy)
a friend had a Case Trapper where the spey blade somehow missed
getting tempering or something. It took and held an edge like crazy
right up until he was wittling down a new shovel handle and broke
the sucker.

Famous last words for that blade...
"i knew better than to use this blade for that, but used it anyway"

We'd talk about it, how he needed to save that blade for only
working cattle, but he just couldn't help himself, he -had- to
find out what it was capable of.


I haven't quite figured out what "working cattle" is, unless it is making
steers out of them. Only thing involving cattle that a little sharp
knife would be good for that I could think of.

BTDT too :/

Alvin in AZ
ps- David MacDonald (CitCo brand) tested
65.5hrc under the de-carbed surface, that's one of the first
tests (out side of the factory) made on that new Wilson
pps- Nicholson said theirs were "64 to 65hrc" but I've never tested
anybodies all-hard power hacksaw blades that tested less than
64.5hrc
ppps- knives made from that stuff (M2) will friggin "hold an edge"
...believe it?



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Default fillet knife blade's geometry?

I'm no longer working at a well equiped shop,, with the exception of my
little belt grinder (in the picks I sent you) and a 1X30 and a 6 X 48
belt grinders I'm back to making my blades much in the manner you are.
You don't know how often I miss that p[lace!!!

Bear

  #24   Report Post  
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Default fillet knife blade's geometry?

I haven't quite figured out what "working cattle" is, unless it
is making steers out of them. Only thing involving cattle that
a little sharp knife would be good for that I could think of.


Since they run wild and take care of themselves, first is "round up"
that's an all year around thing, certain seasons are busier with it
tho.

Could be 6 head could be 180.

Sorting, singling them out, getting them on the ground ("tailing
them over") tieing up their legs using a "piggin string", branding
(using running irons since there are way too many brands to keep
track of and the typical branding iron looking thing don't work
worth anything), horn removal (mostly knife work sometimes a saw or
tree limb cutters is used to get things started, "ear marking",
that's the job that needs a knife that'll cut hair in mid-hair
and the ear is always full of grit and dried mud. The best factory
knife, Case with the chrome vanadium steel won't take much of that
business.

The owner decides what to do with each young bull, if one is looking
like he's worth saving, there's a discussion about that (that I
don't understand, might as well be a foreign language.

Letting some go right there and trucking some.

They have several "emasculators" that look like extra large nickel
plated pliers that you don't want any of your own "parts" in, no
matter what part.

But, those things are about as much trouble as they're worth.

Certain guys think they speed things up and/or do a better job
others won't touch 'em and use only a knife and "running iron".

As far as cows having trouble calving if they die they friggin die.

Several of the ranches that's been bought-out were ones that had
fancy cows and the ton of medicine, calf pulling chains and plastic
gloves that easily go to your shoulder and all that stuff. They
went out of business, all their stock sold off and some cows that
can take care of themselves (part Long Horn) are put on the place
and money made from the place again.

One ranch even came with buffalo, talkin about a pain in the ass.

Alvin in AZ
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Default fillet knife blade's geometry?

Greetin's
the fishing was great, what little time I actually got to do any,, all
of one afternoon in 2 weeks
the catching however left much to be desired,, 4 small yellow perch
smaller than the crankbaits I'll be tossing next month,

I saw quite a few fish that I want to get back and try for once that
spieces season opens,, muskies in the 4 foot range,, just hanging right
at the surface soaking up the sun,, and I found out that if the person
running the boat startles one you didn't spot by getting the boat too
close to it, it can really shock you back from daydreaming!!
but that season doesn't open until next month. walleye and northern
pike both open in the middle of this month.

So instead of getting much fishing in Dad and I went over to his first
cousin's place so I could make up the piece parts he needed to rework
the way the front running gear is on his mower to correct a design
flaw,, I had to spend a good 4 hours with a bucket of mineral spirits
and rags to clean off about 10 to 15 years of grease and dust from his
old lathe before I had convinced myself that it was still capable of
boring a bearing seat for a sealed ball bearing,, it's been a good 30
years since the last time I ran an old Atlas,, and that one was about 3
or 4 sizes bigger than the one I had to work with,, Dad was very happy
with the parts when I got done so it was a good trip anyway.

have fun,
Bear



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Gunner
 
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Default fillet knife blade's geometry?

On Sun, 7 May 2006 22:14:46 -0500, "Del Cecchi"
wrote:


wrote in message ...
missed this somehow

So I'm praying for calmer waters
Bear


"pray in one hand and **** in the other and see which one fills up
first " -alvin

So how did it go with your fishing trip?
Get to fillet a bunch of fish?


I'll let you know about my fishing trip after memorial day. The ice is
off the lakes and we are going canoeing.



PS the factory blades that I checked on the Wilson back when I was
working for the tool company all tested pretty soft too. only
exception was a broken Shrade "Bear Paw" lock back that tested out
at 63, I dropped the dern thing and it snapped right where the
grind starts,( I think it missed the temper cycle in the heat
treat some how)


Sounds like it.
It sure as heck didn't miss the cold treatment tho.

Way back in the early 80's (before I started studying metallurgy)
a friend had a Case Trapper where the spey blade somehow missed
getting tempering or something. It took and held an edge like crazy
right up until he was wittling down a new shovel handle and broke
the sucker.

Famous last words for that blade...
"i knew better than to use this blade for that, but used it anyway"

We'd talk about it, how he needed to save that blade for only
working cattle, but he just couldn't help himself, he -had- to
find out what it was capable of.


I haven't quite figured out what "working cattle" is, unless it is making
steers out of them. Only thing involving cattle that a little sharp
knife would be good for that I could think of.

BTDT too :/


The O Ring Machine works quicker and easier.
http://www.syrvet.com/pro_castrat.html

The Cord Crusher..always gave me a cold chill.....

http://www.jefferslivestock.com/ssc/...le&dept_id=492

As you will note..they are specifically noted to be not recommended
for dogs. This is due to the fact that unlike swine or lambs..dogs
have teeth and will come looking for you after being so treated.....



Alvin in AZ
ps- David MacDonald (CitCo brand) tested
65.5hrc under the de-carbed surface, that's one of the first
tests (out side of the factory) made on that new Wilson
pps- Nicholson said theirs were "64 to 65hrc" but I've never tested
anybodies all-hard power hacksaw blades that tested less than
64.5hrc
ppps- knives made from that stuff (M2) will friggin "hold an edge"
...believe it?



"I think this is because of your belief in biological Marxism.
As a genetic communist you feel that noticing behavioural
patterns relating to race would cause a conflict with your belief
in biological Marxism." Big Pete, famous Usenet Racist
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