Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #1   Report Post  
patlandy
 
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Default Old Standby......

What would be the lathe equivalent of the Bridgeport? What I mean is
there must be a particular manufacturer and/or model of engine lathe
that has gained reputation among those of you who have used them.
Clausing, South Bend, something I can concentrate my search on.
Thanks,
Pat Landy

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Marty Escarcega
 
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patlandy wrote in news:0Xk_b.67626$1S1.50381
@nwrddc01.gnilink.net:

What would be the lathe equivalent of the Bridgeport? What I mean is
there must be a particular manufacturer and/or model of engine lathe
that has gained reputation among those of you who have used them.
Clausing, South Bend, something I can concentrate my search on.
Thanks,
Pat Landy



Hmm, I would have to say Southbend, but hey these are all good lathes and
worth looking for as they all have a spindle that would allow 5C Collet
Capacity. 5C Collets are the standard as developed by Hardinge as R8 is to
the Bridgeport Mill

11" Rockwell/Delta
10" South Bend Heavy 10
11" Logan
12" Clausing

I'm sure there are bunches of others.....just make sure they are complete,
run them through all the gears, no cracks or breaks, look for wear on the
ways (most of us can get by with clapped out lathe). I Dave at Meridian did
a good right up on his site, "In praise of old Klunkers" http://mermac.com
  #3   Report Post  
Jon Elson
 
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patlandy wrote:
What would be the lathe equivalent of the Bridgeport? What I mean is
there must be a particular manufacturer and/or model of engine lathe
that has gained reputation among those of you who have used them.
Clausing, South Bend, something I can concentrate my search on.
Thanks,
Pat Landy


Maybe South Bend, as the higher class machine, and Atlas/Craftsman as
the mostly hobby class. LOTS of them around. I'm not sure it
really makes a whole lot of difference. Sufficient parts are available
for many standard American lathes, including LeBlond, Clausing, Logan
etc., that they can be maintained for many years to come.

But, you really need to define what you will be making, in terms of
size and materials, to decide which machine is best for you.

Jon

  #4   Report Post  
Richard W.
 
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"patlandy" wrote in message
...
What would be the lathe equivalent of the Bridgeport? What I mean is
there must be a particular manufacturer and/or model of engine lathe
that has gained reputation among those of you who have used them.
Clausing, South Bend, something I can concentrate my search on.
Thanks,
Pat Landy


It's really a matter of opinion. My opinion of a South Bend is it's more of
a gunsmith lathe. I had one once a 10" model "A" almost 30 years ago. Would
I buy one now? No, I have out grown them, to under powered. Although they
did make a nice gear head, which would have been nice. But I haven't seen
many of them around.
When I was looking for a lathe I wanted an 18" X 54 Lodge & Shipley.
Don't remember the model right this moment. But the 20 hp and the heavy iron
that went with it, made it a real nice choice in my mind. What I found first
was a 16" Pratt & Whitney. 18.5" swing 7.5 hp and it fit in the space I had
better. It has enough power to get the material out of the way real quick. I
guess this isn't what you asked.
I would think probably a 15" Clausing or LeBlond or a 14" Monarch would be
the answer to your question. Still it's a matter of opinion. Also I think
15" swing lathe to go with a Bridgeport. Many years ago an outfit sold a
Bridgeport type mill with a 15" swing lathe as a package deal. I thought
that was a good combination and still do.

Richard W.


  #5   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article , Richard W. says...

When I was looking for a lathe I wanted an 18" X 54 Lodge & Shipley.
Don't remember the model right this moment. But the 20 hp and the heavy iron
that went with it, made it a real nice choice in my mind. What I found first
was a 16" Pratt & Whitney. 18.5" swing 7.5 hp and it fit in the space I had
better. It has enough power to get the material out of the way real quick. I
guess this isn't what you asked.


Heh, I bet not. The old department shop had one of those
P&W machines. I never had a chance to use it but I did
get to see it in use. Possibly one of the most solid
gear head lathes I've ever seen.

I guess the question he posed was kind of unusual.

It's tolerably rare to find a small home shop with a
brigeport, but in industry they are indeed the standard
milling machine. I suspect though that in a large
shop that has a bunch of brigeports, it's pretty rare
to see the same number of southbend lathes.

In our shop the equivelent is the hardinge lathe. I
guess that fits even better now that they are made
by the same company.

For real home shop use, there are a few names that
stand out. Atlas, Logan, South Bend. Of course none
of those folks still make new machines. But one will
almost *never* see one of those brands in a working
commercial shop.

Jim

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JMartin957
 
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For real home shop use, there are a few names that
stand out. Atlas, Logan, South Bend. Of course none
of those folks still make new machines. But one will
almost *never* see one of those brands in a working
commercial shop.

Jim


Have to disagree there. While Atlas and Logan may be uncommon in commercial
shops, I've seen quite a few with South Bends.

John Martin
  #7   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article , JMartin957 says...

For real home shop use, there are a few names that
stand out. Atlas, Logan, South Bend. Of course none
of those folks still make new machines. But one will
almost *never* see one of those brands in a working
commercial shop.


Have to disagree there. While Atlas and Logan may be uncommon in commercial
shops, I've seen quite a few with South Bends.


In a *real* production shop? Not a mantainance facility,
but a place where they actually produce parts for money?

It's really really tough to make any money with old
belt-drive SBs.

Jim

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  #8   Report Post  
Toolbert \(Bob Powell\)
 
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"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , JMartin957

says...

For real home shop use, there are a few names that
stand out. Atlas, Logan, South Bend. Of course none
of those folks still make new machines. But one will
almost *never* see one of those brands in a working
commercial shop.


Have to disagree there. While Atlas and Logan may be uncommon in

commercial
shops, I've seen quite a few with South Bends.


In a *real* production shop? Not a mantainance facility,
but a place where they actually produce parts for money?

It's really really tough to make any money with old
belt-drive SBs.


SB gets no respect, hah. The only SB lathe I have ever seen at auction was
a like-new heavy 10 ... in a maintenance shop.

It was part of a lot bid for the entire maintenance shop. Had to take the
lathe and 5 tons of oily junk together.

This *is* the northwest, where there never were a lot of old shops with
small machines.

Bob


  #9   Report Post  
Tony
 
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Default Old Standby......

I've had heavy 10's in production shops. But they are more typically found
in the toolroom making jigs & fixtures for the production shop.

Tony

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , JMartin957

says...

For real home shop use, there are a few names that
stand out. Atlas, Logan, South Bend. Of course none
of those folks still make new machines. But one will
almost *never* see one of those brands in a working
commercial shop.


Have to disagree there. While Atlas and Logan may be uncommon in

commercial
shops, I've seen quite a few with South Bends.


In a *real* production shop? Not a mantainance facility,
but a place where they actually produce parts for money?

It's really really tough to make any money with old
belt-drive SBs.

Jim

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  #10   Report Post  
Dan Caster
 
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Default Old Standby......

I have seen more SB's in production shops than any other brand of
lathes. You might define the shops as maintenance shops as they were
not producing machine parts. One is a shop that produces aluminum
boats. They were all older SB's, maybe 16 inch swing and six foot or
longer bed.

Dan


jim rozen wrote in message

Have to disagree there. While Atlas and Logan may be uncommon in commercial
shops, I've seen quite a few with South Bends.


In a *real* production shop? Not a mantainance facility,
but a place where they actually produce parts for money?

It's really really tough to make any money with old
belt-drive SBs.

Jim

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JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
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  #12   Report Post  
Lennie the Lurker
 
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jim rozen wrote in message ...
In article , JMartin957 says...



In a *real* production shop? Not a mantainance facility,
but a place where they actually produce parts for money?

It's really really tough to make any money with old
belt-drive SBs.

Ummm, yes. The last shop I worked in, we have an 11 inch SB, and make
quite a lot of expendable gaging plugs for a glass factory. With a
Jacobs collet on it, it's ideal for this type of short run work.
There have been times when we've tried to run it on one of the bigger
lathes, and lost our asses in the process.

Side note, for general information, I just bought the VIS .200 - 1.200
inside mike, pretty nice. Not as nice as the Starrett, but checks
well with the master rings I have. Got their 5 - 6 and 4 - 5 outside
mikes too, also nice. Haven't checked them with the blocks yet, but
having the smaller four already, I'm not looking for any problems.
More expensive than the chinese, but IMNSHO, well worth the money.
  #14   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article , Gunner says...

Yup, I still see a fair number of Logans in California shops.


Manual machines, actually in production??
I can't imagine anyone making money that way.

Jim

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  #15   Report Post  
Lennie the Lurker
 
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jim rozen wrote in message ...
In article , Gunner says...

Yup, I still see a fair number of Logans in California shops.


Manual machines, actually in production??
I can't imagine anyone making money that way.

Jim, I used to love it when I could take work away from a CNC shop,

With my 1900 vintage Garvin #2 turret lathe.

(Not hard to do with short run, (Less than 1000 pieces) orders.)

Any more than that, and I didn't want it either.


  #16   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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On 25 Feb 2004 23:10:37 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Yup, I still see a fair number of Logans in California shops.


Manual machines, actually in production??
I can't imagine anyone making money that way.

Jim


Yup, used for various second ops, as well as tool making. Short run
stuff is still often faster and cheaper done on manual machines.

Ill bet if Scott Logan searched last years sales records..a significant
number of parts were sold to shops.

Gunner

The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty."
Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly
save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long
  #17   Report Post  
Alan Moore
 
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On 25 Feb 2004 23:10:37 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Yup, I still see a fair number of Logans in California shops.


Manual machines, actually in production??
I can't imagine anyone making money that way.


That's how my father-in-law paid for his South Bend, and later, after
having mistakenly sold that, a Logan, now in my posession.

He found someone who needed parts he could make, and made a few every
day after work.

The California Academy of Sciences in San Francisco is still using a
South Bend "Heavy 10" they originally aquired to do optical work for
the navy during WWII. Not actually a production shop, exactly,
although they do make stuff for planetaria and science museums
nationwide.

Al Moore

  #18   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article , Alan Moore says...

Manual machines, actually in production??
I can't imagine anyone making money that way.


That's how my father-in-law paid for his South Bend, and later, after
having mistakenly sold that, a Logan, now in my posession.


Right, but that was probably sometime in the past, correct?

The California Academy of Sciences in San Francisco is still using a
South Bend "Heavy 10" they originally aquired to do optical work for
the navy during WWII. Not actually a production shop, exactly,
although they do make stuff for planetaria and science museums
nationwide.


Sure, but they're not making any money with that. At best
they're providing a well-needed service, but it's just
break-even. If that.

Jim

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jim rozen
 
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In article , Gunner says...

Yup, used for various second ops, as well as tool making. Short run
stuff is still often faster and cheaper done on manual machines.


Hmm. Basically I've been figuring that the present market
will not allow a small shop with a couple of manual machines
to make money. Ed Huntress, and also teenut, expounded on
the idea that if you try to start a business doing production
of any magnitute with a small shop, running manual machines,
you will probably loose your shirt.

Or, as Ed put it, if you don't, you'll *wish* you had, because
you'll be spending all your time turning cranks and handles.
The "john henry syndrom" he called it. The notion that there
is no way a manual machine and a man can ever outperform a
CNC setup - for a machining run of any length at all.

His rules for setting up a business were, IIRC

Get plenty of capital.
Get good shop space, with running water.
Never mortage your home for financing.
Have CNC capability
Most important: have customers identified and waiting.

Jim

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  #20   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article , Lennie the Lurker
says...

Jim, I used to love it when I could take work away from a CNC shop,
With my 1900 vintage Garvin #2 turret lathe.
(Not hard to do with short run, (Less than 1000 pieces) orders.)


Is this an implicit statement about setup times? Ie,
does the majority of the time for a short run get spent
doing the setup, so if you are good at that, you can
beat the actual total time, even if the run time per
part is somewhat longer?

Jim

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  #22   Report Post  
Gunner
 
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On 27 Feb 2004 05:06:46 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Gunner says...

Yup, used for various second ops, as well as tool making. Short run
stuff is still often faster and cheaper done on manual machines.


Hmm. Basically I've been figuring that the present market
will not allow a small shop with a couple of manual machines
to make money. Ed Huntress, and also teenut, expounded on
the idea that if you try to start a business doing production
of any magnitute with a small shop, running manual machines,
you will probably loose your shirt.

Or, as Ed put it, if you don't, you'll *wish* you had, because
you'll be spending all your time turning cranks and handles.
The "john henry syndrom" he called it. The notion that there
is no way a manual machine and a man can ever outperform a
CNC setup - for a machining run of any length at all.

His rules for setting up a business were, IIRC

Get plenty of capital.
Get good shop space, with running water.
Never mortage your home for financing.
Have CNC capability
Most important: have customers identified and waiting.

Jim


Absolutly correct. Second ops, is the roll of manual machines if you
dont have hip slick and cool subspindle machines which will do both
ends of the part at the same time. The DV-59 is such a lathe, and they
are in every shop I deal with.

Short runs, second ops, reworks, tool making still play a part in why
you keep a manual lathe around.
Its indeed true that many state of the art shops dont have a manual
lathe or even a mill around. They also dont have a bench vise, hammer
or flashlight. They are configured to run a series of parts as
effeciently as possible with as little human interaction as possible.
They seldom have a maintainence department, or maint guy, and contract
out for such services. Its actually more effecient and cheaper.

Until the hip slick and cool machine takes a **** in the middle of a
hot order ("just in time", remember?) and you need to fix something
NOW, or to open up a bore .002, or to face off the part another .005,
etc etc. Or to make an adapter, or fixture or...etc

Gunner

"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas
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