120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

Has anyone hooked up an oscilloscope to the AC outlets of an engine
driven welder? How clean is the output? Could you run a computer,
radio, television, or laser printer off it?


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120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

"Barry S." wrote in message
...
Has anyone hooked up an oscilloscope to the AC outlets of an engine
driven welder? How clean is the output? Could you run a computer,
radio, television, or laser printer off it?


__________________
Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with
'mail'.
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120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

Barry:

I have been researching the same thing for almost a year and all the info I
can find says the quality just isn't there to run sensitive equipment.
From everthing I have read if you need clean power to run the more sensitive
newer appliance/computers etc. you need a good quality inverter style
generator. I'm sure there are some good quality very expensive
construction grade engine driven welders out there that would do the job
nicely but they are out of my price range.

I have an old Miller Big 20 engine welder with a single outlet and a Coleman
5000 watt generator and I was looking to replace them with one single unit
but look s like it's not that easy if clean power is required.


Jimbo


"Barry S." wrote in message
...
Has anyone hooked up an oscilloscope to the AC outlets of an engine
driven welder? How clean is the output? Could you run a computer,
radio, television, or laser printer off it?


__________________
Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with
'mail'.
N38.6 W121.4

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

to the thread


That's why I have * 2 * UPSes. G

Actually I have my answering machine on one of them.

I don't know what you're doin' but that oughta solve the problem.

- "Jimbo" . - spluttered in
:

Barry:

I have been researching the same thing for almost a year and all the
info I can find says the quality just isn't there to run sensitive
equipment. From everthing I have read if you need clean power to run
the more sensitive newer appliance/computers etc. you need a good
quality inverter style generator. I'm sure there are some good
quality very expensive construction grade engine driven welders out
there that would do the job nicely but they are out of my price range.

I have an old Miller Big 20 engine welder with a single outlet and a
Coleman 5000 watt generator and I was looking to replace them with one
single unit but look s like it's not that easy if clean power is
required.


Jimbo


"Barry S." wrote in message
...
Has anyone hooked up an oscilloscope to the AC outlets of an engine
driven welder? How clean is the output? Could you run a computer,
radio, television, or laser printer off it?

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

Earlier this winter we had a huge storm in the Seattle metropolitan area
which knocked out power in many places. My son had a major school paper due
the next morning, and it (about 40 pages) only resided on the hard drive of
my PC. Our first step in coping with the impending disaster which would have
ensued had he failed to turn in his paper on time was to unplug my PC and
drive it to a job site where we used the power of a generator/welder unit
on the back of a truck to bring up my PC and copy the paper to a floppy. The
generator, which brand I don't recall but it was a lot like a Miller Legend,
powered my computer perfectly. Don't forget, your computer doesn't actually
*use* AC, everything is transformed and rectified to +/-12VDC and 5VDC.

(He took the floppy to the city library where we did the final edits and
printed the paper out. Feeling tremendous, he took it to school the next
day only to find that the teacher had granted extra days due to the storm
and he just couldn't face working on it any more. He ended up barely passing,
which is much more a reflection on his school than his paper - I know, I read
it very carefully indeed.)

I suspect a printer would work fine. Anything with an AC supply in it like
a radio or TV I would wonder about.

Grant Erwin
Kirkland, Washington

Barry S. wrote:

Has anyone hooked up an oscilloscope to the AC outlets of an engine
driven welder? How clean is the output? Could you run a computer,
radio, television, or laser printer off it?

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

One could put a protection UPS unit between generator and a computer.
Most are small and would be good to protect from spikes or surges.

I have a 1KW one under my desk now - shares were my feet would kick around. :-)

Martin

Grant Erwin wrote:
Earlier this winter we had a huge storm in the Seattle metropolitan area
which knocked out power in many places. My son had a major school paper due
the next morning, and it (about 40 pages) only resided on the hard drive of
my PC. Our first step in coping with the impending disaster which would
have
ensued had he failed to turn in his paper on time was to unplug my PC and
drive it to a job site where we used the power of a generator/welder unit
on the back of a truck to bring up my PC and copy the paper to a floppy.
The
generator, which brand I don't recall but it was a lot like a Miller
Legend,
powered my computer perfectly. Don't forget, your computer doesn't actually
*use* AC, everything is transformed and rectified to +/-12VDC and 5VDC.

(He took the floppy to the city library where we did the final edits and
printed the paper out. Feeling tremendous, he took it to school the next
day only to find that the teacher had granted extra days due to the storm
and he just couldn't face working on it any more. He ended up barely
passing,
which is much more a reflection on his school than his paper - I know, I
read
it very carefully indeed.)

I suspect a printer would work fine. Anything with an AC supply in it like
a radio or TV I would wonder about.

Grant Erwin
Kirkland, Washington

Barry S. wrote:

Has anyone hooked up an oscilloscope to the AC outlets of an engine
driven welder? How clean is the output? Could you run a computer,
radio, television, or laser printer off it?




--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

On 14 Feb 2004 17:30:09 -0600, Barry S. wrote:

Has anyone hooked up an oscilloscope to the AC outlets of an engine
driven welder? How clean is the output? Could you run a computer,
radio, television, or laser printer off it?

We have a house and shop full of stuff that runs off two different
types of inverters and occasionally from two different generators, one
of which is an 8kW Hobart welder/generator. Very few problems. X10
(sensitive) is only happy with the best inverter output, but OK on
both of our generators. Some clocks might not be happy if your
generator isn't well governed, especially if the load fluctuates. No
problem with computers, they're quite happy to run off even cheapy
square-wave inverters by most reports. You might search the archives
of alt.energy.homepower, lots of discussion of the topic.

List of our loads etc. at
http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/07solar_power.htm

Wayne

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

On 14 Feb 2004 17:30:09 -0600, Barry S. wrote:
Has anyone hooked up an oscilloscope to the AC outlets of an engine
driven welder? How clean is the output? Could you run a computer,
radio, television, or laser printer off it?

I have a Miller Bobcat. The scope says the output is as pure a sinewave
as I see from the utility company. That's to be expected since it is an
alternator, what else could it be? The frequency varies around a bit
(function of engine RPM), but only things like electric clocks and old
phonograph turntables care much about the frequency being precisely
60 Hz. Voltage regulation is pretty decent at light to moderate loads,
about +/- 5%. With a heavy switched load, I've seen voltage momentarily
drop as much as 15%. All of that is acceptable, and comparable to
what you'd get from the utility with a slightly undersized service drop.

Computers all use switching power supplies, so they don't much care
if the power is clean, exactly on frequency, or well regulated (within
reason). They convert the AC directly to DC, chop it at a high frequency,
step it down, and rectify and regulate it again at the 5 and 12 volts
the computer's electronics actually need. Sinewave, square wave,
or even DC is acceptable as input power as long as the voltage is
relatively close to nominal (+/- 20% or so).

CRT monitors can be a different story. Some aren't regulated very
well, so line voltage variations can cause the picture to expand
or collapse, or go out of convergence. You may also get traveling
hum bars if the frequency is off. The amount of regulation they have
isn't always a function of price either. I've seen some expensive
monitors show these problems, and some cheap ones which didn't.
It is just a matter of how the designer of the particular model felt
about good power supply design. In general, LCD monitors don't
suffer these problems, and are much less power hogs too.

Laser printers generally use switching power supplies, so the
comments above about computers apply to them too. They do
require a lot of power compared to a computer or monitor, so
there could be problems with a marginal generator.

Ink jet printers usually use a wall wart power supply, which
while it is a switcher too, is generally not a very classy switcher,
and may not produce good results if the frequency or voltage
is too far off nominal (I haven't had any problems with my
Canon and HP ink jets running on the Bobcat, though).

The same sorts of comments apply to radios and TVs too.
Tape players may wow a bit with changes in line frequency.
CD players generally don't care.

I use my Bobcat as backup power for the house. It runs all
my computers, TVs, TiVos, satellite receivers, ham radio gear,
etc, as well as some lights, refrigerator, freezer, furnace blower,
and central air conditioning. The voltage dips a little when one
of the bigger loads switches on, but not enough to cause any
problems.

If several of the bigger loads switched on at once there might
be a problem, but that hasn't happened to my knowledge while
I've been running on the generator. For sure none of the computers
has ever rebooted, nor has one of the TiVos lost a program it was
recording, while I was running on the generator. I do try to practice
power management, and don't try to run everything at the same
time.

I was a little concerned that the central air might be asking too
much from the generator since its starting surge is right at the
full rated output of the generator, but it has handled it without
complaint. I suspect Miller's ratings are a bit on the conservative
side. It sure is nice to be able to sit in air conditioned comfort
watching TV while all the neighbors swelter in the dark.

Gary

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

- Gary Coffman - spluttered in
:

On 14 Feb 2004 17:30:09 -0600, Barry S. wrote:
Has anyone hooked up an oscilloscope to the AC outlets of an engine
driven welder? How clean is the output? Could you run a computer,
radio, television, or laser printer off it?

I have a Miller Bobcat. The scope says the output is as pure a
sinewave as I see from the utility company. That's to be expected
since it is an alternator, what else could it be? The frequency varies
around a bit (function of engine RPM), but only things like electric
clocks and old phonograph turntables care much about the frequency
being precisely 60 Hz. Voltage regulation is pretty decent at light to
moderate loads, about +/- 5%. With a heavy switched load, I've seen
voltage momentarily drop as much as 15%. All of that is acceptable,
and comparable to what you'd get from the utility with a slightly
undersized service drop.

snip

Nice post Gary.

Thanks.

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

After reading Gary's post I'm beginning to think this clean power thing
isn't as critical as I have been led to believe.

Jimbo
"Greg M" wrote in message
...
- Gary Coffman - spluttered in
:

On 14 Feb 2004 17:30:09 -0600, Barry S. wrote:
Has anyone hooked up an oscilloscope to the AC outlets of an engine
driven welder? How clean is the output? Could you run a computer,
radio, television, or laser printer off it?

I have a Miller Bobcat. The scope says the output is as pure a
sinewave as I see from the utility company. That's to be expected
since it is an alternator, what else could it be? The frequency varies
around a bit (function of engine RPM), but only things like electric
clocks and old phonograph turntables care much about the frequency
being precisely 60 Hz. Voltage regulation is pretty decent at light to
moderate loads, about +/- 5%. With a heavy switched load, I've seen
voltage momentarily drop as much as 15%. All of that is acceptable,
and comparable to what you'd get from the utility with a slightly
undersized service drop.

snip

Nice post Gary.

Thanks.

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

Jimbo wrote:
After reading Gary's post I'm beginning to think this clean power thing
isn't as critical as I have been led to believe.

I think so too. Many of the ATX power supplies
available today will run on 90 to 240 volts with
no adjustment.


Jimbo
"Greg M" wrote in message
...

- Gary Coffman - spluttered in
m:


On 14 Feb 2004 17:30:09 -0600, Barry S. wrote:

Has anyone hooked up an oscilloscope to the AC outlets of an engine
driven welder? How clean is the output? Could you run a computer,
radio, television, or laser printer off it?

I have a Miller Bobcat. The scope says the output is as pure a
sinewave as I see from the utility company. That's to be expected
since it is an alternator, what else could it be? The frequency varies
around a bit (function of engine RPM), but only things like electric
clocks and old phonograph turntables care much about the frequency
being precisely 60 Hz. Voltage regulation is pretty decent at light to
moderate loads, about +/- 5%. With a heavy switched load, I've seen
voltage momentarily drop as much as 15%. All of that is acceptable,
and comparable to what you'd get from the utility with a slightly
undersized service drop.

snip

Nice post Gary.

Thanks.

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:44:48 -0500, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On 14 Feb 2004 17:30:09 -0600, Barry S. wrote:
Has anyone hooked up an oscilloscope to the AC outlets of an engine
driven welder? How clean is the output? Could you run a computer,
radio, television, or laser printer off it?

I have a Miller Bobcat. The scope says the output is as pure a sinewave
as I see from the utility company. That's to be expected since it is an
alternator, what else could it be? The frequency varies around a bit
(function of engine RPM), but only things like electric clocks and old
phonograph turntables care much about the frequency being precisely
60 Hz. Voltage regulation is pretty decent at light to moderate loads,
about +/- 5%. With a heavy switched load, I've seen voltage momentarily
drop as much as 15%. All of that is acceptable, and comparable to
what you'd get from the utility with a slightly undersized service drop.

How loud is the Bobcat? Too loud to sleep at night with it on?

__________________
Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'.
N38.6 W121.4

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

That sounds good - but was the sine wave there if you struck an arc ?
The surge or HV strike might have induced a peak on the sine or maybe a sag.
They might be conditioned very well just for off site computers.


Martin

Gary Coffman wrote:
On 14 Feb 2004 17:30:09 -0600, Barry S. wrote:

Has anyone hooked up an oscilloscope to the AC outlets of an engine
driven welder? How clean is the output? Could you run a computer,
radio, television, or laser printer off it?


I have a Miller Bobcat. The scope says the output is as pure a sinewave
as I see from the utility company. That's to be expected since it is an
alternator, what else could it be? The frequency varies around a bit
(function of engine RPM), but only things like electric clocks and old
phonograph turntables care much about the frequency being precisely
60 Hz. Voltage regulation is pretty decent at light to moderate loads,
about +/- 5%. With a heavy switched load, I've seen voltage momentarily
drop as much as 15%. All of that is acceptable, and comparable to
what you'd get from the utility with a slightly undersized service drop.

Computers all use switching power supplies, so they don't much care
if the power is clean, exactly on frequency, or well regulated (within
reason). They convert the AC directly to DC, chop it at a high frequency,
step it down, and rectify and regulate it again at the 5 and 12 volts
the computer's electronics actually need. Sinewave, square wave,
or even DC is acceptable as input power as long as the voltage is
relatively close to nominal (+/- 20% or so).

CRT monitors can be a different story. Some aren't regulated very
well, so line voltage variations can cause the picture to expand
or collapse, or go out of convergence. You may also get traveling
hum bars if the frequency is off. The amount of regulation they have
isn't always a function of price either. I've seen some expensive
monitors show these problems, and some cheap ones which didn't.
It is just a matter of how the designer of the particular model felt
about good power supply design. In general, LCD monitors don't
suffer these problems, and are much less power hogs too.

Laser printers generally use switching power supplies, so the
comments above about computers apply to them too. They do
require a lot of power compared to a computer or monitor, so
there could be problems with a marginal generator.

Ink jet printers usually use a wall wart power supply, which
while it is a switcher too, is generally not a very classy switcher,
and may not produce good results if the frequency or voltage
is too far off nominal (I haven't had any problems with my
Canon and HP ink jets running on the Bobcat, though).

The same sorts of comments apply to radios and TVs too.
Tape players may wow a bit with changes in line frequency.
CD players generally don't care.

I use my Bobcat as backup power for the house. It runs all
my computers, TVs, TiVos, satellite receivers, ham radio gear,
etc, as well as some lights, refrigerator, freezer, furnace blower,
and central air conditioning. The voltage dips a little when one
of the bigger loads switches on, but not enough to cause any
problems.

If several of the bigger loads switched on at once there might
be a problem, but that hasn't happened to my knowledge while
I've been running on the generator. For sure none of the computers
has ever rebooted, nor has one of the TiVos lost a program it was
recording, while I was running on the generator. I do try to practice
power management, and don't try to run everything at the same
time.

I was a little concerned that the central air might be asking too
much from the generator since its starting surge is right at the
full rated output of the generator, but it has handled it without
complaint. I suspect Miller's ratings are a bit on the conservative
side. It sure is nice to be able to sit in air conditioned comfort
watching TV while all the neighbors swelter in the dark.

Gary


--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

How loud is the Bobcat? Too loud to sleep at night with it on?

Those welder/generators are not optimized for fuel efficiency or for
low noise. They would make poor backup domestic power sources for this
reason. But they undeniably work. I had a Miller Legend AEAD for a couple
of years, had a big Onan gas engine. I *loved* stick welding with that
machine. Really well engineered. Sold it for more than I paid. - GWE

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

Gary Coffman wrote in message . ..

Computers all use switching power supplies, so they don't
much care if the power is clean, exactly on frequency, or
well regulated (within reason).

CRT monitors can be a different story. Some aren't regulated
very well, so line voltage variations can cause the picture
to expand or collapse, or go out of convergence. You may also
get traveling hum bars if the frequency is off. The amount of
regulation they have isn't always a function of price either.

I haven't seen a CRT monitor made since the mid-1980s that didn't
contain a fairly decent switching power supply, and I do mean the main
supply, not just the scan-derived supply. They also seem to be
tolerant of voltage down to 90V.
And since displays often don't scan at 60 Hz, monitors have to be
resistant to hum interference, and I've never seen any unless a bad
ground loop cropped up.

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

On 15 Feb 2004 22:18:06 -0600, Barry S. wrote:



How loud is the Bobcat? Too loud to sleep at night with it on?


Depends how thick your walls are. If you're thinking about using that
machine for home power, it's a bad idea. It's only suitable in that
role for temporary use. Very inefficient, and the hours will add up
quickly. Combined with a modest inverter/charger and some batteries
you could cut the gen run time in half easily enough though. Even
better, scale up the inverter/battery setup and cut the gen time to a
couple hours per day.

Wayne

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

Gary, as always I found your post to be most informative -- many
thanks. However, I did want to clarify one point. Can a switching
power supply really be fed a DC input? I was under the impression that
it required an alternating input -- not at any particular frequency,
but that it did use a step-down transformer to lower the voltage into
something closer to the required range. Of course, my impression is
based on what I vaguely remember from the schematics for an Apple II
power supply back in the early 80's, so it may be that my memory is at
fault, or that switching power supply design has evolved a wee bit
since then!

Gary Coffman wrote in message . ..
On 14 Feb 2004 17:30:09 -0600, Barry S. wrote:
Has anyone hooked up an oscilloscope to the AC outlets of an engine
driven welder? How clean is the output? Could you run a computer,
radio, television, or laser printer off it?

I have a Miller Bobcat. The scope says the output is as pure a sinewave
as I see from the utility company. That's to be expected since it is an
alternator, what else could it be? The frequency varies around a bit
(function of engine RPM), but only things like electric clocks and old
phonograph turntables care much about the frequency being precisely
60 Hz. Voltage regulation is pretty decent at light to moderate loads,
about +/- 5%. With a heavy switched load, I've seen voltage momentarily
drop as much as 15%. All of that is acceptable, and comparable to
what you'd get from the utility with a slightly undersized service drop.

Computers all use switching power supplies, so they don't much care
if the power is clean, exactly on frequency, or well regulated (within
reason). They convert the AC directly to DC, chop it at a high frequency,
step it down, and rectify and regulate it again at the 5 and 12 volts
the computer's electronics actually need. Sinewave, square wave,
or even DC is acceptable as input power as long as the voltage is
relatively close to nominal (+/- 20% or so).

CRT monitors can be a different story. Some aren't regulated very
well, so line voltage variations can cause the picture to expand
or collapse, or go out of convergence. You may also get traveling
hum bars if the frequency is off. The amount of regulation they have
isn't always a function of price either. I've seen some expensive
monitors show these problems, and some cheap ones which didn't.
It is just a matter of how the designer of the particular model felt
about good power supply design. In general, LCD monitors don't
suffer these problems, and are much less power hogs too.

Laser printers generally use switching power supplies, so the
comments above about computers apply to them too. They do
require a lot of power compared to a computer or monitor, so
there could be problems with a marginal generator.

Ink jet printers usually use a wall wart power supply, which
while it is a switcher too, is generally not a very classy switcher,
and may not produce good results if the frequency or voltage
is too far off nominal (I haven't had any problems with my
Canon and HP ink jets running on the Bobcat, though).

The same sorts of comments apply to radios and TVs too.
Tape players may wow a bit with changes in line frequency.
CD players generally don't care.

I use my Bobcat as backup power for the house. It runs all
my computers, TVs, TiVos, satellite receivers, ham radio gear,
etc, as well as some lights, refrigerator, freezer, furnace blower,
and central air conditioning. The voltage dips a little when one
of the bigger loads switches on, but not enough to cause any
problems.

If several of the bigger loads switched on at once there might
be a problem, but that hasn't happened to my knowledge while
I've been running on the generator. For sure none of the computers
has ever rebooted, nor has one of the TiVos lost a program it was
recording, while I was running on the generator. I do try to practice
power management, and don't try to run everything at the same
time.

I was a little concerned that the central air might be asking too
much from the generator since its starting surge is right at the
full rated output of the generator, but it has handled it without
complaint. I suspect Miller's ratings are a bit on the conservative
side. It sure is nice to be able to sit in air conditioned comfort
watching TV while all the neighbors swelter in the dark.

Gary

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

On 15 Feb 2004 22:18:06 -0600, Barry S. wrote:
How loud is the Bobcat? Too loud to sleep at night with it on?

I may be the wrong person to ask that question, I can sleep virtually
anywhere at virtually any time. With the welder on the truck in the
driveway, and the house closed up to run the AC, I can *hear* the
generator running, but it isn't particularly loud or obnoxious in the
house.

The Bobcat isn't a particularly quiet unit, you do have to raise your
voice to carry on a conversation when standing right next to it. But
through the walls of a well insulated house, it isn't very loud at all.

Gary

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 04:38:56 GMT, "Martin H. Eastburn" wrote:
That sounds good - but was the sine wave there if you struck an arc ?

Didn't try that. I don't normally expect to be welding with it while using it
as emergency house power. According to Miller, you get reduced power
output from the auxillary generator when welding (there's a chart in the
manual). That's never concerned me, since I don't do that.

Gary

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

On 16 Feb 2004 08:13:12 -0800, (Andy Wakefield) wrote:
Gary, as always I found your post to be most informative -- many
thanks. However, I did want to clarify one point. Can a switching
power supply really be fed a DC input? I was under the impression that
it required an alternating input -- not at any particular frequency,
but that it did use a step-down transformer to lower the voltage into
something closer to the required range. Of course, my impression is
based on what I vaguely remember from the schematics for an Apple II
power supply back in the early 80's, so it may be that my memory is at
fault, or that switching power supply design has evolved a wee bit
since then!

Not every switcher can operate from DC, but many of them can.
In particular, a PC power supply immediately rectifies the incoming
AC to DC before chopping it at high frequency and using a toroid
transformer to step it down to the working voltage.

Gary

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

Computer power supplies are hardly sensitive. They're about as cheap a
power supply as one can get.

J
"Barry S." wrote in message
...
Has anyone hooked up an oscilloscope to the AC outlets of an engine
driven welder? How clean is the output? Could you run a computer,
radio, television, or laser printer off it?


__________________
Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with
'mail'.
N38.6 W121.4

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

This may be astupid question but what's a UPS

Jimbo
"Greg M" wrote in message
...
to the thread


That's why I have * 2 * UPSes. G

Actually I have my answering machine on one of them.

I don't know what you're doin' but that oughta solve the problem.

- "Jimbo" . - spluttered in
:

Barry:

I have been researching the same thing for almost a year and all the
info I can find says the quality just isn't there to run sensitive
equipment. From everthing I have read if you need clean power to run
the more sensitive newer appliance/computers etc. you need a good
quality inverter style generator. I'm sure there are some good
quality very expensive construction grade engine driven welders out
there that would do the job nicely but they are out of my price range.

I have an old Miller Big 20 engine welder with a single outlet and a
Coleman 5000 watt generator and I was looking to replace them with one
single unit but look s like it's not that easy if clean power is
required.


Jimbo


"Barry S." wrote in message
...
Has anyone hooked up an oscilloscope to the AC outlets of an engine
driven welder? How clean is the output? Could you run a computer,
radio, television, or laser printer off it?

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

Jimbo wrote:

This may be astupid question but what's a UPS

Jimbo

Uninteruptable Power Supply. Battery backup for a computer system in
case of power failure.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

Jimbo wrote:
1. Never a stupid question. It is smart to ask!

A UPS is "Un-interrupted Power Supply" - e.g. battery backup wall plug.
The battery drives an inverter that then drives the load that is plugged in.
It also has a high level of line interference and line hit protection.

I have two in this room that I sit in now. Two computers and two printers
and two monitors.

The one on this system has 37 minutes it can handle the load and keep up.
That also means that I have xx minutes or more to fire up a shaver, a radio
whatever I want when the power is out. Mountain house so it happens here.

I have my TV, DVD, Tape deck, DVDBurner, PDA all plugged into a protected
socket(s) - not battery backed up ones. They protect from voltage spiking
that occurs on the power line almost every day - everywhere!

Martin
This may be astupid question but what's a UPS

Jimbo
"Greg M" wrote in message
...

to the thread


That's why I have * 2 * UPSes. G

Actually I have my answering machine on one of them.

I don't know what you're doin' but that oughta solve the problem.

- "Jimbo" . - spluttered in
:


Barry:

I have been researching the same thing for almost a year and all the
info I can find says the quality just isn't there to run sensitive
equipment. From everthing I have read if you need clean power to run
the more sensitive newer appliance/computers etc. you need a good
quality inverter style generator. I'm sure there are some good
quality very expensive construction grade engine driven welders out
there that would do the job nicely but they are out of my price range.

I have an old Miller Big 20 engine welder with a single outlet and a
Coleman 5000 watt generator and I was looking to replace them with one
single unit but look s like it's not that easy if clean power is
required.


Jimbo


"Barry S." wrote in message
...

Has anyone hooked up an oscilloscope to the AC outlets of an engine
driven welder? How clean is the output? Could you run a computer,
radio, television, or laser printer off it?





--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

90 volts is about the low end. I had 90V here and my Compaq refused
to boot. - The UPS refused actually. I didn't have a auto generate switcher
in the UPS.

Power company fixed the temp patch in the substation and got us back on-line.

Martin

do_not_spam_me wrote:

Gary Coffman wrote in message . ..


Computers all use switching power supplies, so they don't
much care if the power is clean, exactly on frequency, or
well regulated (within reason).


CRT monitors can be a different story. Some aren't regulated
very well, so line voltage variations can cause the picture
to expand or collapse, or go out of convergence. You may also
get traveling hum bars if the frequency is off. The amount of
regulation they have isn't always a function of price either.


I haven't seen a CRT monitor made since the mid-1980s that didn't
contain a fairly decent switching power supply, and I do mean the main
supply, not just the scan-derived supply. They also seem to be
tolerant of voltage down to 90V.
And since displays often don't scan at 60 Hz, monitors have to be
resistant to hum interference, and I've never seen any unless a bad
ground loop cropped up.


--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

Obviously something worth looking in to.

Thanks

Jimbo


"Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message
. com...
Jimbo wrote:
1. Never a stupid question. It is smart to ask!

A UPS is "Un-interrupted Power Supply" - e.g. battery backup wall plug.
The battery drives an inverter that then drives the load that is plugged
in.
It also has a high level of line interference and line hit protection.

I have two in this room that I sit in now. Two computers and two printers
and two monitors.

The one on this system has 37 minutes it can handle the load and keep up.
That also means that I have xx minutes or more to fire up a shaver, a
radio
whatever I want when the power is out. Mountain house so it happens here.

I have my TV, DVD, Tape deck, DVDBurner, PDA all plugged into a protected
socket(s) - not battery backed up ones. They protect from voltage spiking
that occurs on the power line almost every day - everywhere!

Martin
This may be astupid question but what's a UPS

Jimbo
"Greg M" wrote in message
...

to the thread


That's why I have * 2 * UPSes. G

Actually I have my answering machine on one of them.

I don't know what you're doin' but that oughta solve the problem.

- "Jimbo" . - spluttered in
:


Barry:

I have been researching the same thing for almost a year and all the
info I can find says the quality just isn't there to run sensitive
equipment. From everthing I have read if you need clean power to run
the more sensitive newer appliance/computers etc. you need a good
quality inverter style generator. I'm sure there are some good
quality very expensive construction grade engine driven welders out
there that would do the job nicely but they are out of my price range.

I have an old Miller Big 20 engine welder with a single outlet and a
Coleman 5000 watt generator and I was looking to replace them with one
single unit but look s like it's not that easy if clean power is
required.


Jimbo


"Barry S." wrote in message
...

Has anyone hooked up an oscilloscope to the AC outlets of an engine
driven welder? How clean is the output? Could you run a computer,
radio, television, or laser printer off it?





--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

Jimbo wrote:
This may be astupid question but what's a UPS

Jimbo
Here is a link to a former employer you can learn more than you ever
wanted to know about UPSs off their site.

http://www.powerware.com/USA/default.asp

Be warned there are a number of different designs for UPSs and most will
not function from a DC output generator check with the manufacturer.
Most will not function properly with a laser printer attached, the in
rush is too high from the laser printer.
UPSs are allot like welders there is a big difference between consumer
and industrial products and you do get what you pay for.

Doug Hamilton

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

wrote:

Jimbo wrote:

This may be astupid question but what's a UPS

Jimbo

Here is a link to a former employer you can learn more than you ever
wanted to know about UPSs off their site.

http://www.powerware.com/USA/default.asp

Be warned there are a number of different designs for UPSs and most will
not function from a DC output generator check with the manufacturer.
Most will not function properly with a laser printer attached, the in
rush is too high from the laser printer.
UPSs are allot like welders there is a big difference between consumer
and industrial products and you do get what you pay for.

Doug Hamilton

Or go to www.apc.com

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

These FAQ's are pretty good too.
http://www.powersentry.com/faq2.html
http://www.tripplite.com/support/faq/tech_surge.cfm
One thing I learned that left me feeling frustrated is that the protecting varistors wear out and most devices
will provide no protection when they are gone so you never know if the one you have is doing any good or not.

120V/240V AC Output Quality Of Welders
 

These FAQs address my comments about getting what you pay for. Better
products have built in diagnostics and alarms to warn you when
components fail.
The most important feature if you have concerns about power quality from
your generator is to get an on-line or double conversion UPS. These
units convert all incoming AC into DC then convert it back from DC to AC
so you have complete isolation from the input to the output. Machines
that are sold as "Off-line", "Stand-by" should be avoided unless cost is
the most important factor, the protection is not much better than a
surge suppresser power bar with the bonus of battery back up.
"Line-interactive" machines are the middle ground providing a little
more protection by basically conditioning the line power by suppressing
the surges and boosting the sags and with varying degrees of filtering
depending the quality of the machine for other line garbage.
Line-interactive machines tend to get over worked when connected to a
noisy generator or a generator that the frequency or voltage wanders
allot, depending on the machine it may shut down, fail, or go to bypass
none of these condition is desirable.

Doug Hamilton

Zorro wrote:
These FAQ's are pretty good too.
http://www.powersentry.com/faq2.html
http://www.tripplite.com/support/faq/tech_surge.cfm
One thing I learned that left me feeling frustrated is that the protecting varistors wear out and most devices
will provide no protection when they are gone so you never know if the one you have is doing any good or not.