One of the problems with a pacemaker are warnings re the use of stick or mig
electric welders.
The cardiologists see non-commital on this . Does anyone know of any
protective clothing, e.g. metal or lead apron, that would allow some limited
welding. Any help would be much appreciated as a farmer, I sometimes need to
stick a couple pieces together antil the pros can do it.

Thank you.

Bob Zinck

Oxy-Acetylene shouldn't be a problem at all. Because of the possibility of
electric shock, almost any other type could pose a possible problem, I'm
supposing.
Respectfully,
Ron Moore

"Bob Zinck" wrote in message
news:4xNPf.15444$Cp4.12534@edtnps90...
One of the problems with a pacemaker are warnings re the use of stick or
mig electric welders.
The cardiologists see non-commital on this . Does anyone know of any
protective clothing, e.g. metal or lead apron, that would allow some
limited welding. Any help would be much appreciated as a farmer, I
sometimes need to stick a couple pieces together antil the pros can do it.

Thank you.

Bob Zinck

"Bob Zinck" wrote in message
news:4xNPf.15444$Cp4.12534@edtnps90...
One of the problems with a pacemaker are warnings re the use of stick or
mig electric welders.
The cardiologists see non-commital on this . Does anyone know of any
protective clothing, e.g. metal or lead apron, that would allow some
limited welding. Any help would be much appreciated as a farmer, I
sometimes need to stick a couple pieces together antil the pros can do it.

Thank you.

Bob Zinck


Can't honestly say. I would say consult the manufacturer of the pacemaker.
Should have an 800# or some help line. I had a five way bypass and an
aortic valve replaced. They told me to never touch another power tool.


But, did I listen?

Steve

Bob Zinck wrote:
One of the problems with a pacemaker are warnings re the use of stick or mig
electric welders.
The cardiologists see non-commital on this . Does anyone know of any
protective clothing, e.g. metal or lead apron, that would allow some limited
welding. Any help would be much appreciated as a farmer, I sometimes need to
stick a couple pieces together antil the pros can do it.

Thank you.

Bob Zinck

The concern is the RF field generated by the welder - its a BIG spark
transmitter. The cardiologist is non commital - , as will be the
manufacturer - NO WAY are they going to tell you ANYTHING that could
possibly bite them in court.

Any medical device MUST meet certain standards of RF immunity - what
they are, I dont know. Are they applicable on Wednesday afternoon in
April while welding steel plate with a green coloured welder with red
leads? (full moon optional) - These are the sort of questions that
lawyers make lots of money about interpreting.

A prudent man would ask the cardiologist what is the worst possible
fault mode of the device - do you die, or start running round the yard
clucking like a chicken? Do you get to finish the weld before this
happens?

And I guess I cant say yes or no either - how about you do a search
and see if anyones pacemaker has actually gone faulty due welding?.....

Andrew VK3BFA.

Andrew VK3BFA.

Andrew VK3BFA wrote:

snip

Any medical device MUST meet certain standards of RF immunity - what
they are, I dont know. Are they applicable on Wednesday afternoon in
April while welding steel plate with a green coloured welder with red
leads? (full moon optional) -

These are the sort of questions that
lawyers make lots of money about interpreting.

Lawyers don't interpret, they attempt to manipulate. Judges and/or
juries are supposed to interpret.

Pete C.

On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 03:45:04 GMT, Bob Zinck wrote:
One of the problems with a pacemaker are warnings re the use of stick or mig
electric welders.
The cardiologists see non-commital on this .

Well, they don't want to say it's fine and have you drop over dead, so
they're not going to give you anything the manufacturers don't.

Does anyone know of any
protective clothing, e.g. metal or lead apron,

Well, lead is more for ionizing radiation (xrays, etc) than the sort of
shielding we're talking about here.

that would allow some limited
welding. Any help would be much appreciated as a farmer, I sometimes need to
stick a couple pieces together antil the pros can do it.

Well, not a great substitute, but gas welding or brazing wouldn't have
the electrical aspect of it. I'm not sure you're going to find anyone
who will tell you "yeah, that'd be fine" on any shielding you're able to
come up with. The manufacturer would be crucified by the FDA (they
don't play around), the docs don't want to take on the risk, and it's
questionable if anyone else is really qualified to answer the question.

(I worked in the medical device industry for about 15 years).

Dave Hinz

Pete C. wrote:

Andrew VK3BFA wrote:

snip

Any medical device MUST meet certain standards of RF immunity - what
they are, I dont know. Are they applicable on Wednesday afternoon in
April while welding steel plate with a green coloured welder with red
leads? (full moon optional) -

These are the sort of questions that
lawyers make lots of money about interpreting.

Lawyers don't interpret, they attempt to manipulate. Judges and/or
juries are supposed to interpret.

Actually, they do--when they disagree on interpretation, _then_ the judges
and/or juries get into the act.

Pete C.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

a lot of info is available if you google "arc weld" + pacemaker.
here's a sample:

PACEMAKER PRECAUTIONS

# Do not arc-weld. Electromagnetic fields may interfere with your
pacemaker function.
# Do not do mechanical work on a running car or engine. Small
electromagnetic fields are present.
# If you are to undergo magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), inform the
doctor or medical staff that you have a pacemaker, because this
procedure can pose problems for your pacemaker.
---------------------------------------
Sounds like arc welding is a process you'd best avoid.

Good luck,

Red

On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 03:45:04 GMT, "Bob Zinck" wrote:

One of the problems with a pacemaker are warnings re the use of stick or mig
electric welders.
The cardiologists see non-commital on this . Does anyone know of any
protective clothing, e.g. metal or lead apron, that would allow some limited
welding. Any help would be much appreciated as a farmer, I sometimes need to
stick a couple pieces together antil the pros can do it.

Thank you.

Bob Zinck



I found this link care of Google:-

http://www.scts.com.au/welding.pdf

They seem to be slightly less paranoid than some.

regards
Mark Rand
RTFM

According to Dave Hinz :
On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 03:45:04 GMT, Bob Zinck wrote:
One of the problems with a pacemaker are warnings re the use of stick or mig
electric welders.
The cardiologists see non-commital on this .

Well, they don't want to say it's fine and have you drop over dead, so
they're not going to give you anything the manufacturers don't.

Does anyone know of any
protective clothing, e.g. metal or lead apron,

Well, lead is more for ionizing radiation (xrays, etc) than the sort of
shielding we're talking about here.

For the RFI shielding, I would probably personally try something
like two layers of chain mail (fine rather than large rings would be
lighter), with a layer of aluminum foil between them. But -- your arms
are still going to be big antennas conducting the RFI into the body
cavity, so I'm not really sure whether that would be sufficient. I
might bet *my* life on it (if I had a pacemaker), but I would not
suggest betting *your* life on it.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Bob Zinck wrote:

One of the problems with a pacemaker are warnings re the use of stick or mig
electric welders.
The cardiologists see non-commital on this . Does anyone know of any
protective clothing, e.g. metal or lead apron, that would allow some limited
welding. Any help would be much appreciated as a farmer, I sometimes need to
stick a couple pieces together antil the pros can do it.


Well, first you need to check what sort of device you have, and what the
specific problem
it is there to treat. If it is a plain pacer, with no defibrillation
capability, and your
problem is just plain slow hearbeat, then it is pretty likely the worst
the pacer could
ever do is shut off. They are supposed to shut off when an external
defibrillator
is used, then swich back on some short time after the defibrillator is
done blasting
you. If the pacer is DESIGNED to tolerate the use of a defibrillator
(which it
definitely IS) this is a WAY more severe electrical current through the body
(several amps at 1000+ volts for milliseconds) than any welder could
possibly
deliver. The magnetic field of the welder is fairly strong, but it
isn't as massive
as a lot of other things, unless you are welding a part that is resting
on your chest
(not too likely). Anyway, in the case of a pacer shutting off, your
heart will slow
down, and you might faint. This would not be good when handling a welding
torch, and if you were in a position where falling could cause more
injury, then
you'd want to avoid such positions.

Anyway, I tend to be a bull about this sort of scare-mongering, like the
fast food
restaurants that have labels on the doors warning pacemaker-equipped
people to
not even enter the building. What I'd do is have somebody standing by
who was
instructed on how to make the welder safe (turn it off) and such
details, and then
go for it, knowing that the worst likely outcome would be fainting or
lightheadedness.

Now, if the device is actually an internal defibrillator or other device
to prevent/
correct heart arrythmias, that is another story entirely, and you don't
want to risk
driving one of these crazy, or having it shut off just when you need it
most.

Jon

On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 03:45:04 +0000, Bob Zinck wrote:

One of the problems with a pacemaker are warnings re the use of stick or mig
electric welders.
The cardiologists see non-commital on this . Does anyone know of any
protective clothing, e.g. metal or lead apron, that would allow some limited
welding. Any help would be much appreciated as a farmer, I sometimes need to
stick a couple pieces together antil the pros can do it.


Sure! Just get one of these:
http://www.mainlesson.com/books/tapp...d/zpage021.gif

I'm not a weldor, but I sit in an office that has people welding about 10
feet (3m) away, and every time they strike an arc, my monitor distorts.
Kind of a twisty effect, from the magnetic field from that big one-turn
loop from the welder, to the part, to the arc, to the electrode, and back
to the welder.

Other than a mu-metal shield around your chest, I'd ask your cardiologist.

Good Luck!
Rich

I have an ICD (implantable cardiac defibrillator) in my chest and was told that Mig welding was OK . My machine is about 150amps , I don't use it that often but have been back for check ups a number of times and the ICD is functioning fine (and it has not had any reason to discharge thankfully ) .

If I remember correctly the cardiologist said that stick welders or Tigs generated too much interference .


He recounted a story to me whereby a patient came in for a checkup a few months after fitment and they discovered the batteries were flat . At first they thought it was a faulty device but it transpired that the chap was working as a car mechanic . Apparently leaning over a running alternator will flatten the battery of a defibrillator or pace maker very quickly .

I'm fortunate to live in United Kingdom and got this device fitted under our state funded National Health Service which aims to gives universal access to health care based on clinical need .

The politicians like to pick on it as a soft target but it has come through for me and many of my loved ones and we don't have too much else to be proud of these days .

PS As John says , you don't want one of these devices to be disabled for when it is needed as you may not get a second chance . If the electromagnetic radiation is severe enough (we are not talking about nuclear explosions) the device I have will be deactivated for a few seconds . Since I don't weld for a living statistically the risk for me is very small .

On Thu, 9 Mar 2006 23:18:35 +0000, with neither quill nor qualm,
striebs quickly quoth:


I have an ICD (implantable cardiac defibrillator) in my chest and was
told that Mig welding was OK . My machine is about 150amps , I don't
use it that often but have been back for check ups a number of times and
the ICD is functioning fine (and it has not had any reason to discharge
thankfully ) .

If I remember correctly the cardiologist said that stick welders or
Tigs generated too much interference .

I wonder if something like a well-grounded suit of chain mail would
disperse it. That would be a bit like putting your body in a Faraday
cage, wot?

Congrats on your benefits from a working healthcare system.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
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On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 05:23:18 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote:

I wonder if something like a well-grounded suit of chain mail would
disperse it. That would be a bit like putting your body in a Faraday
cage, wot?

Well, that's kind of the idea of the mu-metal platemail someone else
alluded to. Not sure it has to be grounded, it just has to be more
permissive than your body. That said, you've still got those two big
antennas sticking out each side of the torso, and I for one would take
this as a signal to learn to gasweld.

I have a pacemaker and I have welded both with stick and mig with no problems.
Its magnetic fields that are the problem. Keep away from the welder itself and
make sure that neither cable passes close to the pacemaker. And wear at least
one rubber/insulated glove especially with stick welding
Dale Larson

In article 4xNPf.15444$Cp4.12534@edtnps90, says...


One of the problems with a pacemaker are warnings re the use of stick or mig
electric welders.
The cardiologists see non-commital on this . Does anyone know of any
protective clothing, e.g. metal or lead apron, that would allow some limited
welding. Any help would be much appreciated as a farmer, I sometimes need to
stick a couple pieces together antil the pros can do it.

Thank you.

Bob Zinck



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Fitment of an implantable defibrillator plus one overnight stay is cheap but the unit itself is very expensive , something like 30,000 USD . The UK healthcare budget per person per year is slightly under 2,000 USD and I'd be happy to pay a bit more in taxes to improve it further .

AFAIK , the healthcare spend in the US averaged out over the whole population is just over 5,000 USD per annum but with access based on ability to pay .

It is a bit hypocritical for politicians to claim to preside over a civilised society whilst maintaining healthcare is a privilege which should not be available to everyone . What are they going to cancel next , education ?

The super-rich are sucking so hard that there is going to be a backlash . It is about time the little guy got a better deal in the US and the UK .

Bob Zinck wrote:
One of the problems with a pacemaker are warnings re the use of stick or mig
electric welders.
The cardiologists see non-commital on this . Does anyone know of any
protective clothing, e.g. metal or lead apron, that would allow some limited
welding. Any help would be much appreciated as a farmer, I sometimes need to
stick a couple pieces together antil the pros can do it.


The major concern is the magnetic field. Some pacemakers contain a
magnetically activated reed switch to turn them on and off.

http://www.mhra.gov.uk/home/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&useSecondary=true&ss DocName=CON008930&ssTargetNodeId=419

The high current running through the cables creates a strong magnetic
field. In that the field is difficult to characterize, it may be prudent
to learn new oxy-acetylene techniques.

If you want to have someone else modify the welding setup and measure
the fields in an attempt to get the levels low enough, you may want to try:

Running the cables in a(steel)conduit. Could be Greenfield. Grounding
the conduit will help with RF EMI issues.

An additional sheet steel enclosure around the welding power supply. (Mu
Metal is expensive and a pain to fabricate).

Protective clothing? One of the common cable wraps for magnetic
shielding is Monel mesh. Chainmail borrowed from the local SCA chapter
may also work.

Whatever you do, don't put it into practice until you know it will work.
Good luck in getting a "safe" flux level from the pacemaker manufacturer.

Kevin Gallimore


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