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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself
You have a house.
You have no 220v outlets easily accessible. Yes you do. Even if you don't. Thank heavens for oscilloscopes. All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180 degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of phase with all the 120v breakers on the right side. Find a room or outlet where the lights go out when you flip off a left side breaker and plug a 25 ft grounded extension cord into it. Find a room where the lights go out when you flip off a right side breaker and plug a 25 foot grounded extension cord into it. Get a voltmeter and measure hot(little slot) to hot and you will get 240v. Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers. You can wire nut a third cord with a 240v receptacle into the first two hot to hot and you will have a female 240v outlet wherever you may go, provided there are two rooms, one on each 120v side of the breaker box, within 50ft of each other. I discovered this accidentally with my oscope a month ago. So I say screw the dynasty, get the HTP invertig 200. I'd rather spend 5 extra minutes hunting for an outlet and triple my welding capability versus trying to get 120v to act like anything more than a wonderful tool for hampster experiments at NIMH. |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discoveredthis w/o electrocuting myself
benwoodward.com wrote:
You have a house. You have no 220v outlets easily accessible. Yes you do. Even if you don't. Thank heavens for oscilloscopes. All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180 degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of phase with all the 120v breakers on the right side. Find a room or outlet where the lights go out when you flip off a left side breaker and plug a 25 ft grounded extension cord into it. Find a room where the lights go out when you flip off a right side breaker and plug a 25 foot grounded extension cord into it. Get a voltmeter and measure hot(little slot) to hot and you will get 240v. Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers. You can wire nut a third cord with a 240v receptacle into the first two hot to hot and you will have a female 240v outlet wherever you may go, provided there are two rooms, one on each 120v side of the breaker box, within 50ft of each other. I discovered this accidentally with my oscope a month ago. So I say screw the dynasty, get the HTP invertig 200. I'd rather spend 5 extra minutes hunting for an outlet and triple my welding capability versus trying to get 120v to act like anything more than a wonderful tool for hampster experiments at NIMH. The phases alternate vertically in your breaker box, they are not split left and right!!! Look at a 220 breaker, it is made to span two adjacent slots on one side of the box, not two slots on opposite sides... Not only that, there is no guarantee that any room will have outlets of both phases present. |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discoveredthis w/o electrocuting myself
benwoodward.com wrote: You have a house. You have no 220v outlets easily accessible. Yes you do. Even if you don't. Thank heavens for oscilloscopes. All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180 degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of phase with all the 120v breakers on the right side. Find a room or outlet where the lights go out when you flip off a left side breaker and plug a 25 ft grounded extension cord into it. Find a room where the lights go out when you flip off a right side breaker and plug a 25 foot grounded extension cord into it. Get a voltmeter and measure hot(little slot) to hot and you will get 240v. Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers. You can wire nut a third cord with a 240v receptacle into the first two hot to hot and you will have a female 240v outlet wherever you may go, provided there are two rooms, one on each 120v side of the breaker box, within 50ft of each other. I discovered this accidentally with my oscope a month ago. So I say screw the dynasty, get the HTP invertig 200. I'd rather spend 5 extra minutes hunting for an outlet and triple my welding capability versus trying to get 120v to act like anything more than a wonderful tool for hampster experiments at NIMH. The danger with this is if one of the breakers trips, the welder can feed 240 V back into various home appliances, possibly frying something expensive. That's why real 240 V breakers have the handles ganged together, and have internal trip linkages. But, yes, this does work in a pinch. Jon |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself
Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers.
No, actually it's not. The circuit breaker rating has little to do with reasonable expectations of the circuit capacity in this particular situation. Consumer grade extension cords aren't good alternatives to a proper wiring installation. The correct parts and materials required for an appropriate 240V circuit might cost less than $50. The plugs and receptacles on most retail store cords are usually fabricated with thin folded strips and crimped to the stranded conductors, then surrounded by plastic. In many cases the molded plastic body provides the tension for the electrical connections. The rated ampacity of new stranded wire is lower than the same gauge of solid wire used for building circuits, even if the connections are ideal. A used extension cord can be expected to have some broken strands and weak, oxidized connectors. Industrial rated cords or cord connectors aren't the best solution either. After years of use, generic residential wall receptacles aren't reliable for current loads. The current rating is based upon design specs when new, if they're installed properly. When checking wall receptacles for secure contact tension, a 2-wire plug will give an indication of weak contacts better than a 3-wire plug, since many times the H-N connections are loose, but the earth ground connector is tight. Push-in terminations have been a standard electrical installation method for a long time, and although a table lamp might work fine at that location, it doesn't guarantee that the connections are securely bonded, or that they haven't become oxidized. A similar weak connection could be simulated by plugging an appliance plug into an adapter, then plug the adapter into the wall receptacle. If you were to add more adapters, you would be simulating the other connections that are involved in a branch circuit. Tension connections aren't as reliable as securely bonded connections. Consider a small spring pressing a conductor against a contact. There's nothing to guarantee that the contacts are clean or properly mated for full contact. Newer insulation displacement IDC power connections give me the creeps. When using a branch circuit, the reliability is dependent upon a proper installation, and how secure every series connection is today. There was a recent RCM thread about improvised "Y" adapter cables for 240V use. A lethal safety risk may be present if one plug is removed from it's receptacle. WB .................. "benwoodward.com" wrote in message m... You have a house. You have no 220v outlets easily accessible. Yes you do. Even if you don't. Thank heavens for oscilloscopes. All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180 degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of phase with all the 120v breakers on the right side. Find a room or outlet where the lights go out when you flip off a left side breaker and plug a 25 ft grounded extension cord into it. Find a room where the lights go out when you flip off a right side breaker and plug a 25 foot grounded extension cord into it. Get a voltmeter and measure hot(little slot) to hot and you will get 240v. Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers. You can wire nut a third cord with a 240v receptacle into the first two hot to hot and you will have a female 240v outlet wherever you may go, provided there are two rooms, one on each 120v side of the breaker box, within 50ft of each other. I discovered this accidentally with my oscope a month ago. So I say screw the dynasty, get the HTP invertig 200. I'd rather spend 5 extra minutes hunting for an outlet and triple my welding capability versus trying to get 120v to act like anything more than a wonderful tool for hampster experiments at NIMH. |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discoveredthis w/o electrocuting myself
Not exactly true. GOOD boxes like Square D alternate, there are
some older units that have the left side of the box on one phase, the right on the other. I found some #12 neutrals in a house I bought that served two breakers next to each other in one of those. Let's see, 2x20 amps = 40 amps to blow the breakers on a 12 ga wire. not good. Replaced and upgraded the box promptly. Bob Robinson wrote: benwoodward.com wrote: You have a house. You have no 220v outlets easily accessible. Yes you do. Even if you don't. Thank heavens for oscilloscopes. All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180 degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of phase with all the 120v breakers on the right side. Find a room or outlet where the lights go out when you flip off a left side breaker and plug a 25 ft grounded extension cord into it. Find a room where the lights go out when you flip off a right side breaker and plug a 25 foot grounded extension cord into it. Get a voltmeter and measure hot(little slot) to hot and you will get 240v. Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers. You can wire nut a third cord with a 240v receptacle into the first two hot to hot and you will have a female 240v outlet wherever you may go, provided there are two rooms, one on each 120v side of the breaker box, within 50ft of each other. I discovered this accidentally with my oscope a month ago. So I say screw the dynasty, get the HTP invertig 200. I'd rather spend 5 extra minutes hunting for an outlet and triple my welding capability versus trying to get 120v to act like anything more than a wonderful tool for hampster experiments at NIMH. The phases alternate vertically in your breaker box, they are not split left and right!!! Look at a 220 breaker, it is made to span two adjacent slots on one side of the box, not two slots on opposite sides... Not only that, there is no guarantee that any room will have outlets of both phases present. |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discoveredthis w/o electrocuting myself
snip
All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180 degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of Bob responded to this error so I won't. You can't make that assumption, some older boxes ARE wired that way. see my other post |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discoveredthis w/o electrocuting myself
snip
The way a breaker panel is made, the lugs are ALTERNATING as you go down. The breakers on the Left vs. Breakers on the RIGHT is NOT the way to do this. Every other breaker running vertically down each side is on a different phase. This is done for 2 reasons, one is for a balanced load, the other is so you can get 240V with a double breaker. You should not ASSUME that the boxe is wired EITHER WAY. Some older boxes ARE wired left/right. Not my favorite ones but ya gotta check what's there. You do not want to ASSume that taking any right breaker and any left breaker will produce 240V in the correct phase. Running the extention cords like this is dangerous, I don't recommend it at all. Buy a double breaker and install it in the box if you need 240V. Use the appropriate sized wire. 14 Ga is rated to carry 15Amps 12 Ga is rated to carry 20Amps 10 Ga is rated to carry 30Amps 6 Ga is rated for 50Amps |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself
In article , Wild Bill says...
There was a recent RCM thread about improvised "Y" adapter cables for 240V use. A lethal safety risk may be present if one plug is removed from it's receptacle. Actually that was a *commercial* product, I dragged the thread over from the antique radio ng IIRC. And I think most of the folks came to the following conclusions: 1) WAY too much money for something like that 2) BAD idea 3) Product liability lawsuit city! Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself
Almost right. A 120 volt circuit is 120 volts from the hot to the
neutral and the neutral is at ground potential. A 240 volt circuit is essentially two 120 volt to ground circuits that are out of phase. So if one breaker trip you don't have 240 volts anymore, but you do have 120 volts on something that you might think is not energized. So it is not the safest thing to do. Dan Jon Elson wrote in message The danger with this is if one of the breakers trips, the welder can feed 240 V back into various home appliances, possibly frying something expensive. That's why real 240 V breakers have the handles ganged together, and have internal trip linkages. But, yes, this does work in a pinch. Jon |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself
Admittedly I haven't actually tried it yet. Thanks for the heads up on
the breaker box info. I'd check w/ a vom first under ant conditions. other post, then you could rig up a two breaker mini-box, ganged together. It could be done. I think it could be done safely if the circuit were verified first with a vom and a ganged, additional mini breaker box were used. Probably wouldn't be too much of a hassle once you developed a system or kit for it. Normally I try to stay away from any voltage greater than 1.5vdc, but if tig welding is the magical they say it is, there's no way to avoid marrying a telephone pole(which is what I'm trying to do here). |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discoveredthis w/o electrocuting myself
Dan Caster wrote: Almost right. A 120 volt circuit is 120 volts from the hot to the neutral and the neutral is at ground potential. A 240 volt circuit is essentially two 120 volt to ground circuits that are out of phase. So if one breaker trip you don't have 240 volts anymore, but you do have 120 volts on something that you might think is not energized. So it is not the safest thing to do. Dan Jon Elson wrote in message The danger with this is if one of the breakers trips, the welder can feed 240 V back into various home appliances, possibly frying something expensive. That's why real 240 V breakers have the handles ganged together, and have internal trip linkages. But, yes, this does work in a pinch. Jon Yup, you got me when I wasn't thinking straight. It is when the neutral goes out that some mayhem can happen. Jon |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself
In article , Wild Bill says...
There was a recent RCM thread about improvised "Y" adapter cables for 240V use. A lethal safety risk may be present if one plug is removed from it's receptacle. Aw, chicken! C'mon, now. OK, everyone here who has been electrocuted (to death) raise your hands. See? Not a single hand. While we've all been nibbled by Reddy Kilowatt, few of us have been charred. Bottom line: It only takes a few minutes to run wiring correctly and safely, so do so. I do hate the prices of those twist-lock connectors, though. Grrr... 120v plug = 47¢, 240v nema L6-20 plug = $10. ================================================== ========= Save the Endangered Boullions from being cubed! http://www.diversify.com/stees.html Hilarious T-shirts online ================================================== ========= |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discoveredthisw/o electrocuting myself
Actually, you do not need a neutral to run 220.
Jon Elson wrote: Yup, you got me when I wasn't thinking straight. It is when the neutral goes out that some mayhem can happen. Jon -- Bruce A. Frank, Editor "Ford 3.8/4.2L Engine and V-6 STOL Homebuilt Aircraft Newsletter" | Publishing interesting material| | on all aspects of alternative | | engines and homebuilt aircraft.| |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered thisw/o electrocuting myself
This is interesting, but I have never seen a house without a stove or
clothes dryer circuit that will give you 220V. I have run a welder in several homes with a three conductor 10 gage wire extension, that I made myself, as long as 50 ft with no reduced performance. Wire and male and female plugs cost less than $35. These circuits are already wired through a double breaker. "benwoodward.com" wrote: You have a house. You have no 220v outlets easily accessible. Yes you do. Even if you don't. Thank heavens for oscilloscopes. All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180 degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of phase with all the 120v breakers on the right side. Find a room or outlet where the lights go out when you flip off a left side breaker and plug a 25 ft grounded extension cord into it. Find a room where the lights go out when you flip off a right side breaker and plug a 25 foot grounded extension cord into it. Get a voltmeter and measure hot(little slot) to hot and you will get 240v. Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers. You can wire nut a third cord with a 240v receptacle into the first two hot to hot and you will have a female 240v outlet wherever you may go, provided there are two rooms, one on each 120v side of the breaker box, within 50ft of each other. I discovered this accidentally with my oscope a month ago. So I say screw the dynasty, get the HTP invertig 200. I'd rather spend 5 extra minutes hunting for an outlet and triple my welding capability versus trying to get 120v to act like anything more than a wonderful tool for hampster experiments at NIMH. -- Bruce A. Frank, Editor "Ford 3.8/4.2L Engine and V-6 STOL Homebuilt Aircraft Newsletter" | Publishing interesting material| | on all aspects of alternative | | engines and homebuilt aircraft.| |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself
You've led a sheltered life. G
RJ -- "You're just jealous because the voices are talking to me, instead of you." "Bruce A. Frank" wrote in message ... This is interesting, but I have never seen a house without a stove or clothes dryer circuit that will give you 220V. I have run a welder in several homes with a three conductor 10 gage wire extension, that I made myself, as long as 50 ft with no reduced performance. Wire and male and female plugs cost less than $35. These circuits are already wired through a double breaker. "benwoodward.com" wrote: You have a house. You have no 220v outlets easily accessible. Yes you do. Even if you don't. Thank heavens for oscilloscopes. All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180 degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of phase with all the 120v breakers on the right side. Find a room or outlet where the lights go out when you flip off a left side breaker and plug a 25 ft grounded extension cord into it. Find a room where the lights go out when you flip off a right side breaker and plug a 25 foot grounded extension cord into it. Get a voltmeter and measure hot(little slot) to hot and you will get 240v. Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers. You can wire nut a third cord with a 240v receptacle into the first two hot to hot and you will have a female 240v outlet wherever you may go, provided there are two rooms, one on each 120v side of the breaker box, within 50ft of each other. I discovered this accidentally with my oscope a month ago. So I say screw the dynasty, get the HTP invertig 200. I'd rather spend 5 extra minutes hunting for an outlet and triple my welding capability versus trying to get 120v to act like anything more than a wonderful tool for hampster experiments at NIMH. -- Bruce A. Frank, Editor "Ford 3.8/4.2L Engine and V-6 STOL Homebuilt Aircraft Newsletter" | Publishing interesting material| | on all aspects of alternative | | engines and homebuilt aircraft.| |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself
"Bruce A. Frank" wrote:
This is interesting, but I have never seen a house without a stove or clothes dryer circuit that will give you 220V. I have run a welder in several homes with a three conductor 10 gage wire extension, that I made myself, as long as 50 ft with no reduced performance. Wire and male and female plugs cost less than $35. These circuits are already wired through a double breaker. Well I Lived in one for 20 years. No 220 Oven recept, no 220 dryer recept, NO 220 period. Just 1 120 to neutral leg. jk |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:45:46 -0800, jk wrote:
Well I Lived in one for 20 years. No 220 Oven recept, no 220 dryer recept, NO 220 period. Just 1 120 to neutral leg. jk This is what the low-ball wire pullers used to get away with in newly electrified areas in the late forties, instal a service panel consisting of a two pole disconnect switch with two 15A fuses fed from the single hot wire. This way you got away with 2#10 wires in 3/4 conduit for a service, and gave the sucker a combination of up to 24 lights and receptacles, usually one of each per room. Of course, electrical octopi, copper penny fuses, and electrical fires proliferated, but the electrician was long gone before the suckers started to get used to the convenience and began to think that perhaps it might be nice to cook on an electric stove on those hot summer days! Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself
In article , Gerald Miller says...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:45:46 -0800, jk wrote: Well I Lived in one for 20 years. No 220 Oven recept, no 220 dryer recept, NO 220 period. Just 1 120 to neutral leg. jk This is what the low-ball wire pullers used to get away with in newly electrified areas in the late forties, instal a service panel consisting of a two pole disconnect switch with two 15A fuses fed from the single hot wire. You still see those around here. Because peekskill has natural gas, there are still houses with 60 amp 120 volt service around. When they sell, typically banks will not write mortgages on them until the service is upgraded. Jim ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself
On 11 Feb 2004 18:36:40 -0800, jim rozen
wrote: In article , Gerald Miller says... On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:45:46 -0800, jk wrote: Well I Lived in one for 20 years. No 220 Oven recept, no 220 dryer recept, NO 220 period. Just 1 120 to neutral leg. This is what the low-ball wire pullers used to get away with in newly electrified areas in the late forties, instal a service panel consisting of a two pole disconnect switch with two 15A fuses fed from the single hot wire. You still see those around here. Because peekskill has natural gas, there are still houses with 60 amp 120 volt service around. When they sell, typically banks will not write mortgages on them until the service is upgraded. For the Los Angeles area, the "Lowball" service from the twenties and thirties was often 30A 120/240V with an "A-base" power meter and a two-pole 30A plug-fuse safety switch main. Inside would be a 4-circuit or 6-circuit plug-fuse distribution panel. Sometimes connected to "knob and tube" wiring, but usually R wire in rigid conduit. When you got to the 50's, they'd use a 70A 120/240V Zinsco "Crowfoot" panel, using the 'six disconnects without a Main' rule. They would split the panel with two big copper forks and use the 'screw on each end' style Zinsco breakers, so the three breakers on the left were A phase, and the three on the right B phase. -- Bruce -- -- Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545 Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. |
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Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself
Roy J wrote in message ...
Not exactly true. GOOD boxes like Square D alternate, there are some older units that have the left side of the box on one phase, the right on the other. I found some #12 neutrals in a house I bought that served two breakers next to each other in one of those. Let's see, 2x20 amps = 40 amps to blow the breakers on a 12 ga wire. not good. Replaced and upgraded the box promptly. Bob Robinson wrote: benwoodward.com wrote: You have a house. You have no 220v outlets easily accessible. Yes you do. Even if you don't. Thank heavens for oscilloscopes. All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180 degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of phase with all the 120v breakers on the right side. Find a room or outlet where the lights go out when you flip off a left side breaker and plug a 25 ft grounded extension cord into it. Find a room where the lights go out when you flip off a right side breaker and plug a 25 foot grounded extension cord into it. Get a voltmeter and measure hot(little slot) to hot and you will get 240v. Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers. You can wire nut a third cord with a 240v receptacle into the first two hot to hot and you will have a female 240v outlet wherever you may go, provided there are two rooms, one on each 120v side of the breaker box, within 50ft of each other. I discovered this accidentally with my oscope a month ago. So I say screw the dynasty, get the HTP invertig 200. I'd rather spend 5 extra minutes hunting for an outlet and triple my welding capability versus trying to get 120v to act like anything more than a wonderful tool for hampster experiments at NIMH. The phases alternate vertically in your breaker box, they are not split left and right!!! Look at a 220 breaker, it is made to span two adjacent slots on one side of the box, not two slots on opposite sides... Not only that, there is no guarantee that any room will have outlets of both phases present. Please contact an electrician ASAP TG |
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