Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #1   Report Post  
benwoodward.com
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself

You have a house.
You have no 220v outlets easily accessible.
Yes you do.
Even if you don't.
Thank heavens for oscilloscopes.
All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180
degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of
phase with all the 120v breakers on the right side.
Find a room or outlet where the lights go out when you flip off a left
side breaker and plug a 25 ft grounded extension cord into it.
Find a room where the lights go out when you flip off a right side
breaker and plug a 25 foot grounded extension cord into it.
Get a voltmeter and measure hot(little slot) to hot and you will get
240v.
Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers.
You can wire nut a third cord with a 240v receptacle into the first
two hot to hot and you will have a female 240v outlet wherever you may
go, provided there are two rooms, one on each 120v side of the breaker
box, within 50ft of each other.
I discovered this accidentally with my oscope a month ago.
So I say screw the dynasty, get the HTP invertig 200.
I'd rather spend 5 extra minutes hunting for an outlet and triple my
welding capability versus trying to get 120v to act like anything more
than a wonderful tool for hampster experiments at NIMH.
  #2   Report Post  
Bob Robinson
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discoveredthis w/o electrocuting myself

benwoodward.com wrote:
You have a house.
You have no 220v outlets easily accessible.
Yes you do.
Even if you don't.
Thank heavens for oscilloscopes.
All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180
degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of
phase with all the 120v breakers on the right side.
Find a room or outlet where the lights go out when you flip off a left
side breaker and plug a 25 ft grounded extension cord into it.
Find a room where the lights go out when you flip off a right side
breaker and plug a 25 foot grounded extension cord into it.
Get a voltmeter and measure hot(little slot) to hot and you will get
240v.
Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers.
You can wire nut a third cord with a 240v receptacle into the first
two hot to hot and you will have a female 240v outlet wherever you may
go, provided there are two rooms, one on each 120v side of the breaker
box, within 50ft of each other.
I discovered this accidentally with my oscope a month ago.
So I say screw the dynasty, get the HTP invertig 200.
I'd rather spend 5 extra minutes hunting for an outlet and triple my
welding capability versus trying to get 120v to act like anything more
than a wonderful tool for hampster experiments at NIMH.


The phases alternate vertically in your breaker box, they are not split
left and right!!! Look at a 220 breaker, it is made to span two
adjacent slots on one side of the box, not two slots on opposite
sides... Not only that, there is no guarantee that any room will have
outlets of both phases present.

  #3   Report Post  
Jon Elson
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discoveredthis w/o electrocuting myself



benwoodward.com wrote:

You have a house.
You have no 220v outlets easily accessible.
Yes you do.
Even if you don't.
Thank heavens for oscilloscopes.
All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180
degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of
phase with all the 120v breakers on the right side.
Find a room or outlet where the lights go out when you flip off a left
side breaker and plug a 25 ft grounded extension cord into it.
Find a room where the lights go out when you flip off a right side
breaker and plug a 25 foot grounded extension cord into it.
Get a voltmeter and measure hot(little slot) to hot and you will get
240v.
Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers.
You can wire nut a third cord with a 240v receptacle into the first
two hot to hot and you will have a female 240v outlet wherever you may
go, provided there are two rooms, one on each 120v side of the breaker
box, within 50ft of each other.
I discovered this accidentally with my oscope a month ago.
So I say screw the dynasty, get the HTP invertig 200.
I'd rather spend 5 extra minutes hunting for an outlet and triple my
welding capability versus trying to get 120v to act like anything more
than a wonderful tool for hampster experiments at NIMH.


The danger with this is if one of the breakers trips, the welder can
feed 240 V
back into various home appliances, possibly frying something expensive.
That's why real 240 V breakers have the handles ganged together, and have
internal trip linkages.

But, yes, this does work in a pinch.

Jon

  #5   Report Post  
Wild Bill
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself

Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers.

No, actually it's not. The circuit breaker rating has little to do with
reasonable expectations of the circuit capacity in this particular
situation.

Consumer grade extension cords aren't good alternatives to a proper wiring
installation. The correct parts and materials required for an appropriate
240V circuit might cost less than $50.
The plugs and receptacles on most retail store cords are usually fabricated
with thin folded strips and crimped to the stranded conductors, then
surrounded by plastic. In many cases the molded plastic body provides the
tension for the electrical connections.
The rated ampacity of new stranded wire is lower than the same gauge of
solid wire used for building circuits, even if the connections are ideal. A
used extension cord can be expected to have some broken strands and weak,
oxidized connectors.
Industrial rated cords or cord connectors aren't the best solution either.

After years of use, generic residential wall receptacles aren't reliable for
current loads. The current rating is based upon design specs when new, if
they're installed properly. When checking wall receptacles for secure
contact tension, a 2-wire plug will give an indication of weak contacts
better than a 3-wire plug, since many times the H-N connections are loose,
but the earth ground connector is tight.

Push-in terminations have been a standard electrical installation method for
a long time, and although a table lamp might work fine at that location, it
doesn't guarantee that the connections are securely bonded, or that they
haven't become oxidized. A similar weak connection could be simulated by
plugging an appliance plug into an adapter, then plug the adapter into the
wall receptacle. If you were to add more adapters, you would be simulating
the other connections that are involved in a branch circuit.
Tension connections aren't as reliable as securely bonded connections.
Consider a small spring pressing a conductor against a contact. There's
nothing to guarantee that the contacts are clean or properly mated for full
contact.
Newer insulation displacement IDC power connections give me the creeps.

When using a branch circuit, the reliability is dependent upon a proper
installation, and how secure every series connection is today.

There was a recent RCM thread about improvised "Y" adapter cables for 240V
use. A lethal safety risk may be present if one plug is removed from it's
receptacle.

WB
..................

"benwoodward.com" wrote in message
m...
You have a house.
You have no 220v outlets easily accessible.
Yes you do.
Even if you don't.
Thank heavens for oscilloscopes.
All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180
degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of
phase with all the 120v breakers on the right side.
Find a room or outlet where the lights go out when you flip off a left
side breaker and plug a 25 ft grounded extension cord into it.
Find a room where the lights go out when you flip off a right side
breaker and plug a 25 foot grounded extension cord into it.
Get a voltmeter and measure hot(little slot) to hot and you will get
240v.
Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers.
You can wire nut a third cord with a 240v receptacle into the first
two hot to hot and you will have a female 240v outlet wherever you may
go, provided there are two rooms, one on each 120v side of the breaker
box, within 50ft of each other.
I discovered this accidentally with my oscope a month ago.
So I say screw the dynasty, get the HTP invertig 200.
I'd rather spend 5 extra minutes hunting for an outlet and triple my
welding capability versus trying to get 120v to act like anything more
than a wonderful tool for hampster experiments at NIMH.





  #6   Report Post  
Anthony
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself

(benwoodward.com) wrote in
m:

You have a house.
You have no 220v outlets easily accessible.
Yes you do.
Even if you don't.
Thank heavens for oscilloscopes.
All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180
degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of
phase with all the 120v breakers on the right side.
Find a room or outlet where the lights go out when you flip off a left
side breaker and plug a 25 ft grounded extension cord into it.
Find a room where the lights go out when you flip off a right side
breaker and plug a 25 foot grounded extension cord into it.
Get a voltmeter and measure hot(little slot) to hot and you will get
240v.
Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers.
You can wire nut a third cord with a 240v receptacle into the first
two hot to hot and you will have a female 240v outlet wherever you may
go, provided there are two rooms, one on each 120v side of the breaker
box, within 50ft of each other.
I discovered this accidentally with my oscope a month ago.
So I say screw the dynasty, get the HTP invertig 200.
I'd rather spend 5 extra minutes hunting for an outlet and triple my
welding capability versus trying to get 120v to act like anything more
than a wonderful tool for hampster experiments at NIMH.



Um....hold on a sec there.
The way a breaker panel is made, the lugs are ALTERNATING as you go down.
The breakers on the Left vs. Breakers on the RIGHT is NOT the way to do
this. Every other breaker running vertically down each side is on a
different phase. This is done for 2 reasons, one is for a balanced load,
the other is so you can get 240V with a double breaker.

You do not want to ASSume that taking any right breaker and any left
breaker will produce 240V in the correct phase.

Running the extention cords like this is dangerous, I don't recommend it
at all.
Buy a double breaker and install it in the box if you need 240V. Use the
appropriate sized wire.
14 Ga is rated to carry 15Amps
12 Ga is rated to carry 20Amps
10 Ga is rated to carry 30Amps
6 Ga is rated for 50Amps


--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

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  #7   Report Post  
Roy J
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discoveredthis w/o electrocuting myself

Not exactly true. GOOD boxes like Square D alternate, there are
some older units that have the left side of the box on one phase,
the right on the other. I found some #12 neutrals in a house I
bought that served two breakers next to each other in one of
those. Let's see, 2x20 amps = 40 amps to blow the breakers on a
12 ga wire. not good.

Replaced and upgraded the box promptly.

Bob Robinson wrote:

benwoodward.com wrote:

You have a house.
You have no 220v outlets easily accessible.
Yes you do.
Even if you don't.
Thank heavens for oscilloscopes.
All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180
degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of
phase with all the 120v breakers on the right side.
Find a room or outlet where the lights go out when you flip off a left
side breaker and plug a 25 ft grounded extension cord into it.
Find a room where the lights go out when you flip off a right side
breaker and plug a 25 foot grounded extension cord into it.
Get a voltmeter and measure hot(little slot) to hot and you will get
240v.
Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers.
You can wire nut a third cord with a 240v receptacle into the first
two hot to hot and you will have a female 240v outlet wherever you may
go, provided there are two rooms, one on each 120v side of the breaker
box, within 50ft of each other.
I discovered this accidentally with my oscope a month ago.
So I say screw the dynasty, get the HTP invertig 200.
I'd rather spend 5 extra minutes hunting for an outlet and triple my
welding capability versus trying to get 120v to act like anything more
than a wonderful tool for hampster experiments at NIMH.



The phases alternate vertically in your breaker box, they are not split
left and right!!! Look at a 220 breaker, it is made to span two
adjacent slots on one side of the box, not two slots on opposite
sides... Not only that, there is no guarantee that any room will have
outlets of both phases present.

  #8   Report Post  
Roy J
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discoveredthis w/o electrocuting myself

snip

All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180
degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of


Bob responded to this error so I won't.


You can't make that assumption, some older boxes ARE wired that
way. see my other post
  #9   Report Post  
Roy J
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discoveredthis w/o electrocuting myself

snip


The way a breaker panel is made, the lugs are ALTERNATING as you go down.
The breakers on the Left vs. Breakers on the RIGHT is NOT the way to do
this. Every other breaker running vertically down each side is on a
different phase. This is done for 2 reasons, one is for a balanced load,
the other is so you can get 240V with a double breaker.


You should not ASSUME that the boxe is wired EITHER WAY. Some
older boxes ARE wired left/right. Not my favorite ones but ya
gotta check what's there.


You do not want to ASSume that taking any right breaker and any left
breaker will produce 240V in the correct phase.

Running the extention cords like this is dangerous, I don't recommend it
at all.
Buy a double breaker and install it in the box if you need 240V. Use the
appropriate sized wire.
14 Ga is rated to carry 15Amps
12 Ga is rated to carry 20Amps
10 Ga is rated to carry 30Amps
6 Ga is rated for 50Amps


  #10   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself

In article , Wild Bill says...

There was a recent RCM thread about improvised "Y" adapter cables for 240V
use. A lethal safety risk may be present if one plug is removed from it's
receptacle.


Actually that was a *commercial* product, I dragged the thread
over from the antique radio ng IIRC. And I think most of the
folks came to the following conclusions:

1) WAY too much money for something like that

2) BAD idea

3) Product liability lawsuit city!

Jim

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  #11   Report Post  
Dan Caster
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself

Almost right. A 120 volt circuit is 120 volts from the hot to the
neutral and the neutral is at ground potential. A 240 volt circuit is
essentially two 120 volt to ground circuits that are out of phase. So
if one breaker trip you don't have 240 volts anymore, but you do have
120 volts on something that you might think is not energized. So it
is not the safest thing to do.

Dan


Jon Elson wrote in message


The danger with this is if one of the breakers trips, the welder can
feed 240 V
back into various home appliances, possibly frying something expensive.
That's why real 240 V breakers have the handles ganged together, and have
internal trip linkages.

But, yes, this does work in a pinch.

Jon

  #12   Report Post  
benwoodward.com
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself

Admittedly I haven't actually tried it yet. Thanks for the heads up on
the breaker box info. I'd check w/ a vom first under ant conditions.
other post, then you could rig up a two breaker mini-box, ganged
together. It could be done. I think it could be done safely if the
circuit were verified first with a vom and a ganged, additional mini
breaker box were used. Probably wouldn't be too much of a hassle once
you developed a system or kit for it.
Normally I try to stay away from any voltage greater than 1.5vdc, but
if tig welding is the magical they say it is, there's no way to avoid
marrying a telephone pole(which is what I'm trying to do here).
  #13   Report Post  
Bruce L. Bergman
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself

On 6 Feb 2004 12:05:03 -0800,
(benwoodward.com) wrote:

You have a house.
You have no 220v outlets easily accessible.
Yes you do.
Even if you don't.

snip

You are SO wrong on this, in so many ways, I really don't know where
to start. But please, do yourself a big favor - Stop giving out free
electrical advice if you don't have a clue what the f*** you are
talking about. Stupid people only kill themselves, but it takes a
real moron to set up a deadly trap for someone else to spring.

And I'm restraining myself.

There are some very complex (and often contradictory) local,
regional, state and national rules in effect that are referred to in
aggregate as Electrical Codes. Your "Killer Cord" method breaks about
half the rules in the book.

Depending on which circuits you pick to bridge with your "Killer
Cord" rig, you can blow up a lot of expensive stuff on the same
circuits - your new 40" TV & Home Theater System, your Computer...

If your wife or children see Daddy doing this, they're liable to
pull out one of the plugs and play with it - or worse, a toddler puts
an extension cord with hot 120V on the exposed male pins in their
mouth... Instant "Darwin Awards by Proxy."

IMNSHO, that would rate a murder charge, no pleading it down to
manslaughter. You rigged it up even with the knowledge that it was
inherently dangerous.

The proper solution:

If your main panel isn't stuffed or overloaded, it will cost you
anywhere from $50 to $200 to have a licensed professional electrician
come out and add a 220V 20A to 50A receptacle below (or close to) the
main panel, and a little more if you run it any distance.

Ripping out an overloaded or hopelessly obsolete 30A - 100A Main
service and installing a new 200A Meter Main panel to get the extra
capacity you need for your home shop will cost roughly $1,500 - 2,500,
and can go up if you have to do extra work like trench and replace an
underground conduit out to the power company feed transformer.

But the safety of having a real 220V outlet or two available for
running your welder or plasma cutter, instead of using a "Killer Cord"
method to get 220V out of two 120V convenience receptacle circuits
like you describe? Priceless...

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a
net.
  #14   Report Post  
Jon Elson
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discoveredthis w/o electrocuting myself



Dan Caster wrote:
Almost right. A 120 volt circuit is 120 volts from the hot to the
neutral and the neutral is at ground potential. A 240 volt circuit is
essentially two 120 volt to ground circuits that are out of phase. So
if one breaker trip you don't have 240 volts anymore, but you do have
120 volts on something that you might think is not energized. So it
is not the safest thing to do.

Dan


Jon Elson wrote in message




The danger with this is if one of the breakers trips, the welder can
feed 240 V
back into various home appliances, possibly frying something expensive.
That's why real 240 V breakers have the handles ganged together, and have
internal trip linkages.

But, yes, this does work in a pinch.

Jon



Yup, you got me when I wasn't thinking straight. It is when the neutral
goes out that some mayhem can happen.

Jon

  #15   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself

In article , Wild Bill says...

There was a recent RCM thread about improvised "Y" adapter cables for 240V
use. A lethal safety risk may be present if one plug is removed from it's
receptacle.


Aw, chicken! C'mon, now. OK, everyone here who has
been electrocuted (to death) raise your hands. See?
Not a single hand. While we've all been nibbled by
Reddy Kilowatt, few of us have been charred.

Bottom line: It only takes a few minutes to run wiring
correctly and safely, so do so. I do hate the prices
of those twist-lock connectors, though. Grrr...
120v plug = 47¢, 240v nema L6-20 plug = $10.


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http://www.diversify.com/stees.html Hilarious T-shirts online
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  #16   Report Post  
Gerald Miller
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself

On 6 Feb 2004 12:05:03 -0800,
(benwoodward.com) wrote:

You have a house.
You have no 220v outlets easily accessible.
Yes you do.
Even if you don't.
Thank heavens for oscilloscopes.
All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180
degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of
phase with all the 120v breakers on the right side.
Find a room or outlet where the lights go out when you flip off a left
side breaker and plug a 25 ft grounded extension cord into it.
Find a room where the lights go out when you flip off a right side
breaker and plug a 25 foot grounded extension cord into it.
Get a voltmeter and measure hot(little slot) to hot and you will get
240v.
Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers.
You can wire nut a third cord with a 240v receptacle into the first
two hot to hot and you will have a female 240v outlet wherever you may
go, provided there are two rooms, one on each 120v side of the breaker
box, within 50ft of each other.
I discovered this accidentally with my oscope a month ago.
So I say screw the dynasty, get the HTP invertig 200.
I'd rather spend 5 extra minutes hunting for an outlet and triple my
welding capability versus trying to get 120v to act like anything more
than a wonderful tool for hampster experiments at NIMH.

Most houses wired in the last 25 years will have split receptacles in
the kitchen, which, with very little effort can be made to give 220V.
If you need a bit more oomph, use the (electric) dryer (30-35A). or
stove (40A). But, whatever you do, be aware that under the wrong
conditions, a minor boo-boo can kill you. Wonder of wonders, I have
survived 55 years of electrical work, having graduated from kerosene
lighting at a tender age.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
  #17   Report Post  
Bruce A. Frank
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discoveredthisw/o electrocuting myself

Actually, you do not need a neutral to run 220.

Jon Elson wrote:


Yup, you got me when I wasn't thinking straight. It is when the neutral
goes out that some mayhem can happen.

Jon


--
Bruce A. Frank, Editor "Ford 3.8/4.2L Engine and V-6 STOL
Homebuilt Aircraft Newsletter"
| Publishing interesting material|
| on all aspects of alternative |
| engines and homebuilt aircraft.|
  #18   Report Post  
Bruce A. Frank
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered thisw/o electrocuting myself

This is interesting, but I have never seen a house without a stove or
clothes dryer circuit that will give you 220V. I have run a welder in
several homes with a three conductor 10 gage wire extension, that I made
myself, as long as 50 ft with no reduced performance. Wire and male and
female plugs cost less than $35. These circuits are already wired
through a double breaker.

"benwoodward.com" wrote:

You have a house.
You have no 220v outlets easily accessible.
Yes you do.
Even if you don't.
Thank heavens for oscilloscopes.
All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180
degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of
phase with all the 120v breakers on the right side.
Find a room or outlet where the lights go out when you flip off a left
side breaker and plug a 25 ft grounded extension cord into it.
Find a room where the lights go out when you flip off a right side
breaker and plug a 25 foot grounded extension cord into it.
Get a voltmeter and measure hot(little slot) to hot and you will get
240v.
Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers.
You can wire nut a third cord with a 240v receptacle into the first
two hot to hot and you will have a female 240v outlet wherever you may
go, provided there are two rooms, one on each 120v side of the breaker
box, within 50ft of each other.
I discovered this accidentally with my oscope a month ago.
So I say screw the dynasty, get the HTP invertig 200.
I'd rather spend 5 extra minutes hunting for an outlet and triple my
welding capability versus trying to get 120v to act like anything more
than a wonderful tool for hampster experiments at NIMH.


--
Bruce A. Frank, Editor "Ford 3.8/4.2L Engine and V-6 STOL
Homebuilt Aircraft Newsletter"
| Publishing interesting material|
| on all aspects of alternative |
| engines and homebuilt aircraft.|
  #19   Report Post  
Backlash
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself

You've led a sheltered life. G

RJ


--
"You're just jealous because the voices are talking to me, instead of you."


"Bruce A. Frank" wrote in message
...
This is interesting, but I have never seen a house without a stove or
clothes dryer circuit that will give you 220V. I have run a welder in
several homes with a three conductor 10 gage wire extension, that I made
myself, as long as 50 ft with no reduced performance. Wire and male and
female plugs cost less than $35. These circuits are already wired
through a double breaker.

"benwoodward.com" wrote:

You have a house.
You have no 220v outlets easily accessible.
Yes you do.
Even if you don't.
Thank heavens for oscilloscopes.
All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180
degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of
phase with all the 120v breakers on the right side.
Find a room or outlet where the lights go out when you flip off a left
side breaker and plug a 25 ft grounded extension cord into it.
Find a room where the lights go out when you flip off a right side
breaker and plug a 25 foot grounded extension cord into it.
Get a voltmeter and measure hot(little slot) to hot and you will get
240v.
Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers.
You can wire nut a third cord with a 240v receptacle into the first
two hot to hot and you will have a female 240v outlet wherever you may
go, provided there are two rooms, one on each 120v side of the breaker
box, within 50ft of each other.
I discovered this accidentally with my oscope a month ago.
So I say screw the dynasty, get the HTP invertig 200.
I'd rather spend 5 extra minutes hunting for an outlet and triple my
welding capability versus trying to get 120v to act like anything more
than a wonderful tool for hampster experiments at NIMH.


--
Bruce A. Frank, Editor "Ford 3.8/4.2L Engine and V-6 STOL
Homebuilt Aircraft Newsletter"
| Publishing interesting material|
| on all aspects of alternative |
| engines and homebuilt aircraft.|



  #20   Report Post  
Gary Coffman
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself

On 6 Feb 2004 12:05:03 -0800, (benwoodward.com) wrote:
You have a house.
You have no 220v outlets easily accessible.
Yes you do.
Even if you don't.
Thank heavens for oscilloscopes.
All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180
degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of
phase with all the 120v breakers on the right side.


Usually not. Most residential breaker boxes have the legs alternating
in the same row. That allows you to replace two adjacent single 120
volt breakers with a single ganged 240 volt breaker. If there are any
240 volt breakers in your panel, this is the way it is made. You *can*
find breakers on opposite legs in opposite sides of this sort of panel,
but you have a 50-50 chance of being wrong.

(In a bolted breaker panel, all bets are off. It could be arranged
any sort of way, and you can't know unless you open it up and
trace it out.)

In very rare cases, the box may only be supplied with one hot and
a neutral. In that case, you don't have access to 240. This will
usually be true only of a subpanel, not the service entrance panel.
The utilities do not like to unbalance their neutrals this way, so
this sort of panel as an entrance panel is most likely to be found
in a barn, pump house, or other outbuilding where the owner only
ran a pair of separate overhead wires to it to supply 120 volt power
for lights or utility outlets. Normally, this sort of panel will only have
a single row of breakers, but not always. You have to open it up
and look to make sure what you have.

Find a room or outlet where the lights go out when you flip off a left
side breaker and plug a 25 ft grounded extension cord into it.
Find a room where the lights go out when you flip off a right side
breaker and plug a 25 foot grounded extension cord into it.
Get a voltmeter and measure hot(little slot) to hot and you will get
240v.


As noted above, maybe. Note too that the overhead lights in a
room are usually wired to a different breaker than the outlets in
that room. That's so you won't be fumbling around in the dark
when you plug in something which blows a breaker. So the lights
going out doesn't necessarily mean you've found the right breaker.

Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers.


Including all the *other* loads on the circuit. A 120 volt breaker
usually feeds more than one outlet. Unless you're sure all the
other loads on the two 120 volt circuits are disconnected, you
won't have the full rated value of the breaker available (typically
only 15 amps if you do).

If you have a resistive neutral on either circuit (fairly likely in older
wiring), other equipment on the combined circuit can see more than
120 volts (neutral imbalance). This can damage 120 volt equipment
in the house. It *can* also cause a fire.

You can wire nut a third cord with a 240v receptacle into the first
two hot to hot and you will have a female 240v outlet wherever you may
go, provided there are two rooms, one on each 120v side of the breaker
box, within 50ft of each other.


Note that this sort of "suicide cord" wiring is dangerous. Since you'll be
feeding the equipment from two different breakers, tripping one breaker
will *not* make the equipment cold. That's why 240 volt breakers are
ganged, so both have to trip at the same time.

I discovered this accidentally with my oscope a month ago.
So I say screw the dynasty, get the HTP invertig 200.
I'd rather spend 5 extra minutes hunting for an outlet and triple my
welding capability versus trying to get 120v to act like anything more
than a wonderful tool for hampster experiments at NIMH.


I'd rather spend the time once to install a proper 240 breaker and
circuit. Then I wouldn't have to worry about it again. Adding a 240
volt circuit to an existing panel is usually possible, and is much safer
than what you are proposing.

Gary


  #21   Report Post  
jk
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself

"Bruce A. Frank" wrote:

This is interesting, but I have never seen a house without a stove or
clothes dryer circuit that will give you 220V. I have run a welder in
several homes with a three conductor 10 gage wire extension, that I made
myself, as long as 50 ft with no reduced performance. Wire and male and
female plugs cost less than $35. These circuits are already wired
through a double breaker.

Well I Lived in one for 20 years. No 220 Oven recept, no 220 dryer
recept, NO 220 period. Just 1 120 to neutral leg.
jk
  #22   Report Post  
Gerald Miller
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:45:46 -0800, jk wrote:


Well I Lived in one for 20 years. No 220 Oven recept, no 220 dryer
recept, NO 220 period. Just 1 120 to neutral leg.
jk

This is what the low-ball wire pullers used to get away with in newly
electrified areas in the late forties, instal a service panel
consisting of a two pole disconnect switch with two 15A fuses fed from
the single hot wire. This way you got away with 2#10 wires in 3/4
conduit for a service, and gave the sucker a combination of up to 24
lights and receptacles, usually one of each per room. Of course,
electrical octopi, copper penny fuses, and electrical fires
proliferated, but the electrician was long gone before the suckers
started to get used to the convenience and began to think that perhaps
it might be nice to cook on an electric stove on those hot summer
days!
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada
  #23   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself

In article , Gerald Miller says...

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:45:46 -0800, jk wrote:


Well I Lived in one for 20 years. No 220 Oven recept, no 220 dryer
recept, NO 220 period. Just 1 120 to neutral leg.
jk

This is what the low-ball wire pullers used to get away with in newly
electrified areas in the late forties, instal a service panel
consisting of a two pole disconnect switch with two 15A fuses fed from
the single hot wire.


You still see those around here. Because peekskill has natural
gas, there are still houses with 60 amp 120 volt service around.
When they sell, typically banks will not write mortgages on them
until the service is upgraded.

Jim

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  #24   Report Post  
Bruce L. Bergman
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself

On 11 Feb 2004 18:36:40 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:
In article , Gerald Miller says...
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:45:46 -0800, jk wrote:


Well I Lived in one for 20 years. No 220 Oven recept, no 220 dryer
recept, NO 220 period. Just 1 120 to neutral leg.


This is what the low-ball wire pullers used to get away with in newly
electrified areas in the late forties, instal a service panel
consisting of a two pole disconnect switch with two 15A fuses fed from
the single hot wire.


You still see those around here. Because peekskill has natural
gas, there are still houses with 60 amp 120 volt service around.
When they sell, typically banks will not write mortgages on them
until the service is upgraded.


For the Los Angeles area, the "Lowball" service from the twenties
and thirties was often 30A 120/240V with an "A-base" power meter and a
two-pole 30A plug-fuse safety switch main. Inside would be a
4-circuit or 6-circuit plug-fuse distribution panel. Sometimes
connected to "knob and tube" wiring, but usually R wire in rigid
conduit.

When you got to the 50's, they'd use a 70A 120/240V Zinsco
"Crowfoot" panel, using the 'six disconnects without a Main' rule.
They would split the panel with two big copper forks and use the
'screw on each end' style Zinsco breakers, so the three breakers on
the left were A phase, and the three on the right B phase.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.
  #25   Report Post  
Tim
 
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Default Why a 220v welder is as good as a 120v..listen up, I discovered this w/o electrocuting myself

Roy J wrote in message ...
Not exactly true. GOOD boxes like Square D alternate, there are
some older units that have the left side of the box on one phase,
the right on the other. I found some #12 neutrals in a house I
bought that served two breakers next to each other in one of
those. Let's see, 2x20 amps = 40 amps to blow the breakers on a
12 ga wire. not good.

Replaced and upgraded the box promptly.

Bob Robinson wrote:

benwoodward.com wrote:

You have a house.
You have no 220v outlets easily accessible.
Yes you do.
Even if you don't.
Thank heavens for oscilloscopes.
All the 120v breakers on the left side of you breaker box are 180
degrees(or Pi radians for the less mathematically inclined) out of
phase with all the 120v breakers on the right side.
Find a room or outlet where the lights go out when you flip off a left
side breaker and plug a 25 ft grounded extension cord into it.
Find a room where the lights go out when you flip off a right side
breaker and plug a 25 foot grounded extension cord into it.
Get a voltmeter and measure hot(little slot) to hot and you will get
240v.
Totally usable up to the value of the smaller of the two breakers.
You can wire nut a third cord with a 240v receptacle into the first
two hot to hot and you will have a female 240v outlet wherever you may
go, provided there are two rooms, one on each 120v side of the breaker
box, within 50ft of each other.
I discovered this accidentally with my oscope a month ago.
So I say screw the dynasty, get the HTP invertig 200.
I'd rather spend 5 extra minutes hunting for an outlet and triple my
welding capability versus trying to get 120v to act like anything more
than a wonderful tool for hampster experiments at NIMH.



The phases alternate vertically in your breaker box, they are not split
left and right!!! Look at a 220 breaker, it is made to span two
adjacent slots on one side of the box, not two slots on opposite
sides... Not only that, there is no guarantee that any room will have
outlets of both phases present.


Please contact an electrician ASAP
TG
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