I have a 10 year old hydronic heating system in my home. There is a boiler and
it leads to a special tank which holds the heated water, which is circulated on
demand through wall registers. The thing that makes this tank special is that it
also holds potable water, i.e. a hot water tank. The heating and potable water
never mix, ever.

My tank has developed a pinhole leak right up on the domed top. I cannot imagine
that there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but the warranty says that if the
house is sold the warranty ends at 5 years. Before I buy a new tank at a
whopping $1200, I want to at least try to fix the pinhole. My heating system guy
shook his head and said "it would never hold" but I don't see how I have much to
lose. There is almost certainly some kind of liner which I'd have to worry
about, so I'd want to use minimum heat.

Anyone have any idea how something like this might be patched? I was thinking of
trying a soft solder perhaps.

GWE

Grant Erwin wrote:
I have a 10 year old hydronic heating system in my home. There is a
boiler and it leads to a special tank which holds the heated water,
which is circulated on demand through wall registers. The thing that
makes this tank special is that it also holds potable water, i.e. a hot
water tank. The heating and potable water never mix, ever.

My tank has developed a pinhole leak right up on the domed top. I cannot
imagine that there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but the warranty says
that if the house is sold the warranty ends at 5 years. Before I buy a
new tank at a whopping $1200, I want to at least try to fix the pinhole.
My heating system guy shook his head and said "it would never hold" but
I don't see how I have much to lose. There is almost certainly some kind
of liner which I'd have to worry about, so I'd want to use minimum heat.

Anyone have any idea how something like this might be patched? I was
thinking of trying a soft solder perhaps.

GWE
Depending on how hot this gets, you might be able to epoxy it.
What is the tank made of? Galvanized steel? You have to get the
area near the repair dry on the inside to get it hot enough to
solder. It may be very difficult to get the 10-year old surface
clean enough to solder well. Make sure there is no trapped water
in the tank, or you could have a deadly steam explosion.

Jon

Grant,
It sounds like Jon has the ticket! Rough up (clean) the outside well and
apply a patch over the hole with JB Weld.

Bob Swinney

"Jon Elson" wrote in message
...
Grant Erwin wrote:
I have a 10 year old hydronic heating system in my home. There is a
boiler and it leads to a special tank which holds the heated water, which
is circulated on demand through wall registers. The thing that makes this
tank special is that it also holds potable water, i.e. a hot water tank.
The heating and potable water never mix, ever.

My tank has developed a pinhole leak right up on the domed top. I cannot
imagine that there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but the warranty says
that if the house is sold the warranty ends at 5 years. Before I buy a
new tank at a whopping $1200, I want to at least try to fix the pinhole.
My heating system guy shook his head and said "it would never hold" but I
don't see how I have much to lose. There is almost certainly some kind of
liner which I'd have to worry about, so I'd want to use minimum heat.

Anyone have any idea how something like this might be patched? I was
thinking of trying a soft solder perhaps.

GWE
Depending on how hot this gets, you might be able to epoxy it.
What is the tank made of? Galvanized steel? You have to get the
area near the repair dry on the inside to get it hot enough to
solder. It may be very difficult to get the 10-year old surface
clean enough to solder well. Make sure there is no trapped water
in the tank, or you could have a deadly steam explosion.

Jon

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
I have a 10 year old hydronic heating system in my home. There is a boiler
and it leads to a special tank which holds the heated water, which is
circulated on demand through wall registers. The thing that makes this tank
special is that it also holds potable water, i.e. a hot water tank. The
heating and potable water never mix, ever.

My tank has developed a pinhole leak right up on the domed top. I cannot
imagine that there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but the warranty says
that if the house is sold the warranty ends at 5 years. Before I buy a new
tank at a whopping $1200, I want to at least try to fix the pinhole. My
heating system guy shook his head and said "it would never hold" but I
don't see how I have much to lose. There is almost certainly some kind of
liner which I'd have to worry about, so I'd want to use minimum heat.

Anyone have any idea how something like this might be patched? I was
thinking of trying a soft solder perhaps.

How thick is the tank wall? You might be able to drill and tap for a small
pipe plug like 1/16" NPT.

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
I have a 10 year old hydronic heating system in my home. There is a boiler
and it leads to a special tank which holds the heated water, which is
circulated on demand through wall registers. The thing that makes this tank
special is that it also holds potable water, i.e. a hot water tank. The
heating and potable water never mix, ever.

My tank has developed a pinhole leak right up on the domed top. I cannot
imagine that there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but the warranty says
that if the house is sold the warranty ends at 5 years. Before I buy a new
tank at a whopping $1200, I want to at least try to fix the pinhole. My
heating system guy shook his head and said "it would never hold" but I
don't see how I have much to lose. There is almost certainly some kind of
liner which I'd have to worry about, so I'd want to use minimum heat.

Anyone have any idea how something like this might be patched? I was
thinking of trying a soft solder perhaps.

GWE

I would get some JBFix, a small square of metal window screen, and make a 2
x 2" patch.

My experience with these is that they corrode from the inside. If you were
to cut this open, you would see corrosion marks. This was so with several
aluminum hot water heater units people brought me out of motorhomes. They
had a pinhole, and not enough metal that was thick enough to weld to. It
just blew holes. Finally, we did the JBFix thing, and they lasted a little
while longer, but just until the next cancer popped through at another
place.

It's just like freeze plugs. You ever change a freeze plug in a motor
block. I did it once, and replaced only the one that was leaking. After
firing it up, a week later, another started leaking, as they were all the
same age, and all in the same state of corrosion. So, I pulled the engine
AGAIN, and did all the plugs. A lesson.

This is not to say that you might patch this tank, and see another ten years
of problem free use.

I have had some incredible results with JB products when it was the last
best thing to do before replacement. And, for a few bucks, you could do
several patches.

Just drain to make sure it's dry, and clean the surface and sand it a bit.

Let us know what you do and how it works.

STeve

In article ,
Grant Erwin wrote:

I have a 10 year old hydronic heating system in my home. There is a boiler
and
it leads to a special tank which holds the heated water, which is circulated
on
demand through wall registers. The thing that makes this tank special is that
it
also holds potable water, i.e. a hot water tank. The heating and potable
water
never mix, ever.

My tank has developed a pinhole leak right up on the domed top. I cannot
imagine
that there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but the warranty says that if the
house is sold the warranty ends at 5 years. Before I buy a new tank at a
whopping $1200, I want to at least try to fix the pinhole. My heating system
guy
shook his head and said "it would never hold" but I don't see how I have much
to
lose. There is almost certainly some kind of liner which I'd have to worry
about, so I'd want to use minimum heat.

Anyone have any idea how something like this might be patched? I was thinking
of
trying a soft solder perhaps.

GWE

One question that's critical: What's the maximum expected pressure of
the tank? Is it ever expected that the holding tank will exceed about
40-60 PSI (Typical potable water system pressure), or is it a case of
"The boiler doesn't actually boil anything - just makes the water hot,
and a pump puts it into the tank at a few PSI/circulates it"?

If it's just "There's hot water inside", then I'd expect it to be no big
deal to drill directly through the leak, then sink an appropriately
sized stainless steel self-tapping screw through a rubber grommet. No
muss, no fuss, no bother.

On the other hand, if the boiler truly is a boiler, then it's probably a
pressure-rated system, and as such, things get *REAL* dicey, from both a
legal and safety standpoint, no matter how you attempt the fix. If this
is the case, it will likely end up being easier/cheaper/safer to just
replace the tank, regardless of how bad it hurts the wallet - Better to
spring for the $1200 than have the thing fail under pressure and blow
the house off the foundation, doncha know...

Pressure vessels are definitely nothing to mess with if you don't know
*EXACTLY* how to do it right, and I wouldn't be surprised if doing
anything to it without proper "powers that be" approval, inspection,
maybe even a license, etc. etc. etc., could set you up for some
*SERIOUS* legal/insurance trouble sometime down the road.

--
Don Bruder - - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd for more info

Chances are that the pinhole is a rust through. If you fix one you
will probably develop more soon.


On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 09:58:43 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:

I have a 10 year old hydronic heating system in my home. There is a boiler and
it leads to a special tank which holds the heated water, which is circulated on
demand through wall registers. The thing that makes this tank special is that it
also holds potable water, i.e. a hot water tank. The heating and potable water
never mix, ever.

My tank has developed a pinhole leak right up on the domed top. I cannot imagine
that there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but the warranty says that if the
house is sold the warranty ends at 5 years. Before I buy a new tank at a
whopping $1200, I want to at least try to fix the pinhole. My heating system guy
shook his head and said "it would never hold" but I don't see how I have much to
lose. There is almost certainly some kind of liner which I'd have to worry
about, so I'd want to use minimum heat.

Anyone have any idea how something like this might be patched? I was thinking of
trying a soft solder perhaps.

GWE
Gary Pewitt N9ZSV
Sturgeon's Law "Ninety per cent of everything is crap"

Grant Erwin wrote:

I have a 10 year old hydronic heating system in my home. There is a boiler and
it leads to a special tank which holds the heated water, which is circulated on
demand through wall registers. The thing that makes this tank special is that it
also holds potable water, i.e. a hot water tank. The heating and potable water
never mix, ever.

My tank has developed a pinhole leak right up on the domed top. I cannot imagine
that there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but the warranty says that if the
house is sold the warranty ends at 5 years. Before I buy a new tank at a
whopping $1200, I want to at least try to fix the pinhole. My heating system guy
shook his head and said "it would never hold" but I don't see how I have much to
lose. There is almost certainly some kind of liner which I'd have to worry
about, so I'd want to use minimum heat.

Anyone have any idea how something like this might be patched? I was thinking of
trying a soft solder perhaps.

GWE

I think you're actually referring to an indirect fired domestic hot
water system.

The "boiler" normally feeds your hydronic baseboards directly with a
circulator pump and zone valves if needed. You DHW normally is provided
one of three different ways, in-boiler tankless DHW coil, separate
standalone water heater with it's own burner, of indirect fired DHW from
a separate heat exchanger tank.

The indirect fired DHW normally has a separate heavily insulated storage
tank with a heat exchanger coil in it. This heat exchanger coil is
normally plumbed to the boiler as an additional zone and there is a
separate thermostat for the DHW tank. It's rather the opposite of the
in-boiler tankless DHW setup where the DHW is in a heat exchanger coil
in the boiler tank.

If this is the case, the tank itself holds the potable DHW water so
anything you use to patch it must be potable water safe. The actual DHW
tank temperature normally should not exceed 130 degrees and your normal
domestic water pressure. The problem is that if the cause of the leak is
general corrosion as opposed to one defective spot, you could have the
heat exchanger coil ready to go as well and the potential for cross
contamination. If you have antifreeze in the boiler side of the system
this would be particularly bad.

I think you need to lookup the exact brand / model tank and determine
exactly what you are dealing with before proceeding.

Pete C.

Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
Grant Erwin wrote:


I have a 10 year old hydronic heating system in my home. There is a boiler
and
it leads to a special tank which holds the heated water, which is circulated
on
demand through wall registers. The thing that makes this tank special is that
it
also holds potable water, i.e. a hot water tank. The heating and potable
water
never mix, ever.

My tank has developed a pinhole leak right up on the domed top. I cannot
imagine
that there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but the warranty says that if the
house is sold the warranty ends at 5 years. Before I buy a new tank at a
whopping $1200, I want to at least try to fix the pinhole. My heating system
guy
shook his head and said "it would never hold" but I don't see how I have much
to
lose. There is almost certainly some kind of liner which I'd have to worry
about, so I'd want to use minimum heat.

Anyone have any idea how something like this might be patched? I was thinking
of
trying a soft solder perhaps.

GWE


One question that's critical: What's the maximum expected pressure of
the tank? Is it ever expected that the holding tank will exceed about
40-60 PSI (Typical potable water system pressure), or is it a case of
"The boiler doesn't actually boil anything - just makes the water hot,
and a pump puts it into the tank at a few PSI/circulates it"?

If it's just "There's hot water inside", then I'd expect it to be no big
deal to drill directly through the leak, then sink an appropriately
sized stainless steel self-tapping screw through a rubber grommet. No
muss, no fuss, no bother.

On the other hand, if the boiler truly is a boiler, then it's probably a
pressure-rated system, and as such, things get *REAL* dicey, from both a
legal and safety standpoint, no matter how you attempt the fix. If this
is the case, it will likely end up being easier/cheaper/safer to just
replace the tank, regardless of how bad it hurts the wallet - Better to
spring for the $1200 than have the thing fail under pressure and blow
the house off the foundation, doncha know...

Pressure vessels are definitely nothing to mess with if you don't know
*EXACTLY* how to do it right, and I wouldn't be surprised if doing
anything to it without proper "powers that be" approval, inspection,
maybe even a license, etc. etc. etc., could set you up for some
*SERIOUS* legal/insurance trouble sometime down the road.


It isn't a pressure vessel, city water pressure (60-70 psi) is it.

GWE

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 19:04:17 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Grant Erwin wrote:

I have a 10 year old hydronic heating system in my home. There is a boiler and
it leads to a special tank which holds the heated water, which is circulated on
demand through wall registers. The thing that makes this tank special is that it
also holds potable water, i.e. a hot water tank. The heating and potable water
never mix, ever.

My tank has developed a pinhole leak right up on the domed top. I cannot imagine
that there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but the warranty says that if the
house is sold the warranty ends at 5 years. Before I buy a new tank at a
whopping $1200, I want to at least try to fix the pinhole. My heating system guy
shook his head and said "it would never hold" but I don't see how I have much to
lose. There is almost certainly some kind of liner which I'd have to worry
about, so I'd want to use minimum heat.

Anyone have any idea how something like this might be patched? I was thinking of
trying a soft solder perhaps.

GWE

I think you're actually referring to an indirect fired domestic hot
water system.

The "boiler" normally feeds your hydronic baseboards directly with a
circulator pump and zone valves if needed. You DHW normally is provided
one of three different ways, in-boiler tankless DHW coil, separate
standalone water heater with it's own burner, of indirect fired DHW from
a separate heat exchanger tank.

The indirect fired DHW normally has a separate heavily insulated storage
tank with a heat exchanger coil in it. This heat exchanger coil is
normally plumbed to the boiler as an additional zone and there is a
separate thermostat for the DHW tank. It's rather the opposite of the
in-boiler tankless DHW setup where the DHW is in a heat exchanger coil
in the boiler tank.

If this is the case, the tank itself holds the potable DHW water so
anything you use to patch it must be potable water safe. The actual DHW
tank temperature normally should not exceed 130 degrees and your normal
domestic water pressure. The problem is that if the cause of the leak is
general corrosion as opposed to one defective spot, you could have the
heat exchanger coil ready to go as well and the potential for cross
contamination. If you have antifreeze in the boiler side of the system
this would be particularly bad.

I think you need to lookup the exact brand / model tank and determine
exactly what you are dealing with before proceeding.

Pete C.

I would agree - but if I was fixing it I'd braze it with the O/A torch
and the "blue" brazing rod. I'd drain the tank down and open it to
atmospheric pressure, sand the area around the pinhole perfectly
clean, and flow brass on in an area about the size of a quarter or
half-dollar.
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Use a self tapping screw and JB weld. Clean area real good .Rough the
surface.
Tap hole. Apply a generous load of JB and insert screw. Apply excess over
the top of everything to seal it up for good.

Mike" wrote in message
...
Use a self tapping screw and JB weld. Clean area real good .Rough the
surface.
Tap hole. Apply a generous load of JB and insert screw. Apply excess over
the top of everything to seal it up for good.

With a self tapper there is always the possibility of setting up a galvanic
cell inside, and speeding up the corrosion. I'd go for mesh and epoxy
outside (where the epoxy also keeps oxygenated water off the mesh, so that
even if there is a dissimilar metal pair connected, there's no oxygen).

"Newshound" wrote in message
...

Mike" wrote in message
...
Use a self tapping screw and JB weld. Clean area real good .Rough the
surface.
Tap hole. Apply a generous load of JB and insert screw. Apply excess over
the top of everything to seal it up for good.

With a self tapper there is always the possibility of setting up a
galvanic cell inside, and speeding up the corrosion. I'd go for mesh and
epoxy outside (where the epoxy also keeps oxygenated water off the mesh,
so that even if there is a dissimilar metal pair connected, there's no
oxygen).

My experience from seeing the inside of a few dead aluminum hot water tanks
is that there is always corrosion in other areas, just waiting to be the
next leak. They are like looking at the surface of the moon, little patches
of flat craters, being dish shaped. To merely drill in the center and epoxy
WOULD solve the problem temporarily in that area, but putting a patch larger
than that outside makes the area you are building up a lot bigger, so that
it is over the "crater" on the inside. If it corrodes more in that thin
spot in the center of the crater, it will just come out where the epoxy is.
And if you are drilling into the thinnest part of the crater, you won't have
much "meat" to anchor to.

Now, I know this is not an aluminum hot water tank. I do not know what this
material is, and if, when it is dead, if you looked inside, exactly what the
post mortem examination would reveal. The best way to understand what
happened and what the best fix would be is to do a post mortem, but that is
what the OP is trying to avoid for as long as possible.

However, once the tank does give up the ghost, cut it up. Examine the
interior. See what's there, and what might be the best thing to do in the
NEXT case. Also, you can do some tear apart of the actual repairs and see
how they performed. There will be a lot of information and things to be
learned there, so don't just chuck it without examining. Maybe a sheet of
fiberglass with two element fiberglass dope would have worked better.

Anyway, that is what I would do. YMMV. I consider it a good day if I have
learned something new.

Steve

I'd clean it real good, and sweat a copper penny onto it. No, really, I've
done it before.
Good luck,

Bob

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote in message
...
On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 19:04:17 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Grant Erwin wrote:

I have a 10 year old hydronic heating system in my home. There is a
boiler and
it leads to a special tank which holds the heated water, which is
circulated on
demand through wall registers. The thing that makes this tank special is
that it
also holds potable water, i.e. a hot water tank. The heating and potable
water
never mix, ever.

My tank has developed a pinhole leak right up on the domed top. I cannot
imagine
that there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but the warranty says that if
the
house is sold the warranty ends at 5 years. Before I buy a new tank at a
whopping $1200, I want to at least try to fix the pinhole. My heating
system guy
shook his head and said "it would never hold" but I don't see how I have
much to
lose. There is almost certainly some kind of liner which I'd have to
worry
about, so I'd want to use minimum heat.

Anyone have any idea how something like this might be patched? I was
thinking of
trying a soft solder perhaps.

GWE

I think you're actually referring to an indirect fired domestic hot
water system.

The "boiler" normally feeds your hydronic baseboards directly with a
circulator pump and zone valves if needed. You DHW normally is provided
one of three different ways, in-boiler tankless DHW coil, separate
standalone water heater with it's own burner, of indirect fired DHW from
a separate heat exchanger tank.

The indirect fired DHW normally has a separate heavily insulated storage
tank with a heat exchanger coil in it. This heat exchanger coil is
normally plumbed to the boiler as an additional zone and there is a
separate thermostat for the DHW tank. It's rather the opposite of the
in-boiler tankless DHW setup where the DHW is in a heat exchanger coil
in the boiler tank.

If this is the case, the tank itself holds the potable DHW water so
anything you use to patch it must be potable water safe. The actual DHW
tank temperature normally should not exceed 130 degrees and your normal
domestic water pressure. The problem is that if the cause of the leak is
general corrosion as opposed to one defective spot, you could have the
heat exchanger coil ready to go as well and the potential for cross
contamination. If you have antifreeze in the boiler side of the system
this would be particularly bad.

I think you need to lookup the exact brand / model tank and determine
exactly what you are dealing with before proceeding.

Pete C.

I would agree - but if I was fixing it I'd braze it with the O/A torch
and the "blue" brazing rod. I'd drain the tank down and open it to
atmospheric pressure, sand the area around the pinhole perfectly
clean, and flow brass on in an area about the size of a quarter or
half-dollar.
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*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
http://www.SecureIX.com ***

1.It sounds like an indirect water heater, and doesn't heat your radiators.

2. They are usually coated steel, (porcelain), any welding will further
damage the coating. What brand is this unit? How old is it?

3. As others have mentioned, fix one spot and you'll play little Dutch boy
with more leaks.

4. If the whole thing goes while your away you'll flood your basement.
Consider this a free warning

5. Next time replace the zinc anode inside the tank every 10 years or so, if
it is accessible.

Tony



"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
I have a 10 year old hydronic heating system in my home. There is a boiler
and
it leads to a special tank which holds the heated water, which is
circulated on
demand through wall registers. The thing that makes this tank special is
that it
also holds potable water, i.e. a hot water tank. The heating and potable
water
never mix, ever.

My tank has developed a pinhole leak right up on the domed top. I cannot
imagine
that there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but the warranty says that if
the
house is sold the warranty ends at 5 years. Before I buy a new tank at a
whopping $1200, I want to at least try to fix the pinhole. My heating
system guy
shook his head and said "it would never hold" but I don't see how I have
much to
lose. There is almost certainly some kind of liner which I'd have to worry
about, so I'd want to use minimum heat.

Anyone have any idea how something like this might be patched? I was
thinking of
trying a soft solder perhaps.

GWE

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 09:58:43 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:

I have a 10 year old hydronic heating system in my home. There is a boiler and
it leads to a special tank which holds the heated water, which is circulated on
demand through wall registers. The thing that makes this tank special is that it
also holds potable water, i.e. a hot water tank. The heating and potable water
never mix, ever.

My tank has developed a pinhole leak right up on the domed top. I cannot imagine
that there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but the warranty says that if the
house is sold the warranty ends at 5 years. Before I buy a new tank at a
whopping $1200, I want to at least try to fix the pinhole. My heating system guy
shook his head and said "it would never hold" but I don't see how I have much to
lose. There is almost certainly some kind of liner which I'd have to worry
about, so I'd want to use minimum heat.

If it's a lined tank you are probably going to have to stick with
non-heat methods - the lining can be "Glass" (porcelain) or some sort
of epoxy or blown-in-place polyethylene. Either way, the application
of welding or soldering heat is going to be a problem.

And consider what will happen if that patch pops big-time, and you
have a half-inch gusher flowing your water main full out into the room
- is this tank somewhere you'll have huge water damage problems?

I'd try an external epoxy patch as a stop-gap to either buy a few
weeks or get through this winter, and I'd try to work some epoxy
inside the hole to act as a mushroom plug of sorts. If it's a
flexible lining you could use a mechanical seal like the 'boiler patch
bolt' with a big neoprene washer under the head. But if it's a rigid
lining (porcelain) you could crack a big chunk off on the inside and
accelerate the deterioration.

And now the "r.c.m Monster Garage" question: Is it possible to
split up the systems and save a lot of dough in the long run?

Instead of spending $1,200 for that special heat-exchanger tank you
install a plain old electric DHW water heater for $300, and a plain
hot-water storage tank (or a second electric water heater) for the
boiler for roughly the same, and an external water-water heat
exchanger and a pair of wet-rotor circulation pumps to heat the DHW
from the boiler side.

You leave the electric heating elements turned off for normal use,
and if the boiler or the heat exchanger dies, you can fire up the
electric elements as an "Oh, Sh*t" backup heat system.

The storage tanks they sell for solar systems are nothing more than
an electric water heater with no wiring, elements or thermostats
installed. You can even remove the access hatches and see the plugs
in the element holes.

There are other dodges to this, but what fuels do you have available
at the house?

If you have natural gas or propane available, substitute the
appropriate gas water heaters for the storage tanks. (And plug off
the vent flues when not in use to prevent heat loss.) And then you
have the option to switch over if fuel oil prices spike higher than
propane or natural gas, or vice versa.

This is where having a 'Plan B' shines. I have accounts with big
condo buildings with two or three Raypak gas fired hot-water boilers
for DHW in a tankless pipe-circulation system, one of the buildings
has them all in the same room - but plumbed as totally separate
systems. No "Oh Sh*t" valves to tie two sections together for a few
days in case one of the boilers fails. The hot water might get
lukewarm during the "morning rush" but if the residents know, they can
adjust.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

Lots of great advice. This problem is greatly compounded by the fact that the
shutoff valve which feeds cold potable water to this tank is malfunctioning and
will *not* shut off. It's a gate valve and it's just plain stuck.

More details: I was wrong, this tank does not store heating water, only potable
water. It has a heat exchanger in it, so boiler water is circulated through the
heat exchanger and the rest of the water is potable water. This is good news
because when I figured this out at least I could turn my heat back on.

I also have an electric hot water tank and I could have hot water again if the
shutoff valve were working. It's soldered inline onto 1" copper pipe, and it's
going to be a bitch to fix it. The two hot water tanks are plumbed in series and
the electric one is upstream of the boiler-heated one so if I keep the electric
one shut off then I can drain the boiler-heated one.

So I decided to try patching the leak. First, I took an awl and gently poked at
the pinhole leak. Remember, this tank contains hot water under approx. 70 psi.
Well, what happened was that the pinhole rapidly opened up and I got sprayed
with hot rusty water, along with my ceiling, etc. The thing that really turned
it into a cluster **** was that the floor drain was plugged with concrete, the
*******s must never have tested it. I was able to chip through it and clear the
J-pipe in the floor and squeegee the water down the floor drain, and the pools
remaining I sucked up with the shop vac, which has seen a lot of duty tonight,
more to come.

Anyway, I tried high temperature RTV in conjunction with a sheet metal screw,
let it set up for a couple of hours, no way at all did it hold. Next I cut out a
patch of copper sheet about the size of a 50 cent piece and had a go at sweating
it on using plumber's solder. That's where I am now. Next step is to go cut the
water back on and see if it leaks through my patch. If so, off comes the patch
and I'll try directly brazing up the hole using bronze brazing rod and blue flux.

I know this patch won't hold for long, I'm just trying to get through the
holiday weekend with 4 teenagers here without having no hot water.

GWE

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 09:58:43 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:


I have a 10 year old hydronic heating system in my home. There is a boiler and
it leads to a special tank which holds the heated water, which is circulated on
demand through wall registers. The thing that makes this tank special is that it
also holds potable water, i.e. a hot water tank. The heating and potable water
never mix, ever.

My tank has developed a pinhole leak right up on the domed top. I cannot imagine
that there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but the warranty says that if the
house is sold the warranty ends at 5 years. Before I buy a new tank at a
whopping $1200, I want to at least try to fix the pinhole. My heating system guy
shook his head and said "it would never hold" but I don't see how I have much to
lose. There is almost certainly some kind of liner which I'd have to worry
about, so I'd want to use minimum heat.


If it's a lined tank you are probably going to have to stick with
non-heat methods - the lining can be "Glass" (porcelain) or some sort
of epoxy or blown-in-place polyethylene. Either way, the application
of welding or soldering heat is going to be a problem.

And consider what will happen if that patch pops big-time, and you
have a half-inch gusher flowing your water main full out into the room
- is this tank somewhere you'll have huge water damage problems?

I'd try an external epoxy patch as a stop-gap to either buy a few
weeks or get through this winter, and I'd try to work some epoxy
inside the hole to act as a mushroom plug of sorts. If it's a
flexible lining you could use a mechanical seal like the 'boiler patch
bolt' with a big neoprene washer under the head. But if it's a rigid
lining (porcelain) you could crack a big chunk off on the inside and
accelerate the deterioration.

And now the "r.c.m Monster Garage" question: Is it possible to
split up the systems and save a lot of dough in the long run?

Instead of spending $1,200 for that special heat-exchanger tank you
install a plain old electric DHW water heater for $300, and a plain
hot-water storage tank (or a second electric water heater) for the
boiler for roughly the same, and an external water-water heat
exchanger and a pair of wet-rotor circulation pumps to heat the DHW
from the boiler side.

You leave the electric heating elements turned off for normal use,
and if the boiler or the heat exchanger dies, you can fire up the
electric elements as an "Oh, Sh*t" backup heat system.

The storage tanks they sell for solar systems are nothing more than
an electric water heater with no wiring, elements or thermostats
installed. You can even remove the access hatches and see the plugs
in the element holes.

There are other dodges to this, but what fuels do you have available
at the house?

If you have natural gas or propane available, substitute the
appropriate gas water heaters for the storage tanks. (And plug off
the vent flues when not in use to prevent heat loss.) And then you
have the option to switch over if fuel oil prices spike higher than
propane or natural gas, or vice versa.

This is where having a 'Plan B' shines. I have accounts with big
condo buildings with two or three Raypak gas fired hot-water boilers
for DHW in a tankless pipe-circulation system, one of the buildings
has them all in the same room - but plumbed as totally separate
systems. No "Oh Sh*t" valves to tie two sections together for a few
days in case one of the boilers fails. The hot water might get
lukewarm during the "morning rush" but if the residents know, they can
adjust.

-- Bruce --

OK, the copper patch didn't sweat on fully. I took it off, wirebrushed the area,
and brazed a patch just using bronze rod and blue flux as someone recommended,
not that I have any other brazing rod or flux. This patch is holding up,
although I'm positive I didn't do the plastic lining of the tank any good. Score
another one for the O/A torch. Now my heat's back on and I have hot water. I'll
get to replacing the tank when the plumbing supply store opens on Monday, busted
shutoff valve too. Thanks to everyone, just tons and tons of great advice.

GWE

Grant Erwin wrote:

Lots of great advice. This problem is greatly compounded by the fact
that the shutoff valve which feeds cold potable water to this tank is
malfunctioning and will *not* shut off. It's a gate valve and it's just
plain stuck.

More details: I was wrong, this tank does not store heating water, only
potable water. It has a heat exchanger in it, so boiler water is
circulated through the heat exchanger and the rest of the water is
potable water. This is good news because when I figured this out at
least I could turn my heat back on.

I also have an electric hot water tank and I could have hot water again
if the shutoff valve were working. It's soldered inline onto 1" copper
pipe, and it's going to be a bitch to fix it. The two hot water tanks
are plumbed in series and the electric one is upstream of the
boiler-heated one so if I keep the electric one shut off then I can
drain the boiler-heated one.

So I decided to try patching the leak. First, I took an awl and gently
poked at the pinhole leak. Remember, this tank contains hot water under
approx. 70 psi. Well, what happened was that the pinhole rapidly opened
up and I got sprayed with hot rusty water, along with my ceiling, etc.
The thing that really turned it into a cluster **** was that the floor
drain was plugged with concrete, the *******s must never have tested it.
I was able to chip through it and clear the J-pipe in the floor and
squeegee the water down the floor drain, and the pools remaining I
sucked up with the shop vac, which has seen a lot of duty tonight, more
to come.

Anyway, I tried high temperature RTV in conjunction with a sheet metal
screw, let it set up for a couple of hours, no way at all did it hold.
Next I cut out a patch of copper sheet about the size of a 50 cent piece
and had a go at sweating it on using plumber's solder. That's where I am
now. Next step is to go cut the water back on and see if it leaks
through my patch. If so, off comes the patch and I'll try directly
brazing up the hole using bronze brazing rod and blue flux.

I know this patch won't hold for long, I'm just trying to get through
the holiday weekend with 4 teenagers here without having no hot water.

GWE

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 09:58:43 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:


I have a 10 year old hydronic heating system in my home. There is a
boiler and it leads to a special tank which holds the heated water,
which is circulated on demand through wall registers. The thing that
makes this tank special is that it also holds potable water, i.e. a
hot water tank. The heating and potable water never mix, ever.

My tank has developed a pinhole leak right up on the domed top. I
cannot imagine that there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but the
warranty says that if the house is sold the warranty ends at 5 years.
Before I buy a new tank at a whopping $1200, I want to at least try
to fix the pinhole. My heating system guy shook his head and said "it
would never hold" but I don't see how I have much to lose. There is
almost certainly some kind of liner which I'd have to worry about, so
I'd want to use minimum heat.



If it's a lined tank you are probably going to have to stick with
non-heat methods - the lining can be "Glass" (porcelain) or some sort
of epoxy or blown-in-place polyethylene. Either way, the application
of welding or soldering heat is going to be a problem.

And consider what will happen if that patch pops big-time, and you
have a half-inch gusher flowing your water main full out into the room
- is this tank somewhere you'll have huge water damage problems?

I'd try an external epoxy patch as a stop-gap to either buy a few
weeks or get through this winter, and I'd try to work some epoxy
inside the hole to act as a mushroom plug of sorts. If it's a
flexible lining you could use a mechanical seal like the 'boiler patch
bolt' with a big neoprene washer under the head. But if it's a rigid
lining (porcelain) you could crack a big chunk off on the inside and
accelerate the deterioration.

And now the "r.c.m Monster Garage" question: Is it possible to
split up the systems and save a lot of dough in the long run?

Instead of spending $1,200 for that special heat-exchanger tank you
install a plain old electric DHW water heater for $300, and a plain
hot-water storage tank (or a second electric water heater) for the
boiler for roughly the same, and an external water-water heat
exchanger and a pair of wet-rotor circulation pumps to heat the DHW
from the boiler side.
You leave the electric heating elements turned off for normal use,
and if the boiler or the heat exchanger dies, you can fire up the
electric elements as an "Oh, Sh*t" backup heat system.

The storage tanks they sell for solar systems are nothing more than
an electric water heater with no wiring, elements or thermostats
installed. You can even remove the access hatches and see the plugs
in the element holes.

There are other dodges to this, but what fuels do you have available
at the house?

If you have natural gas or propane available, substitute the
appropriate gas water heaters for the storage tanks. (And plug off
the vent flues when not in use to prevent heat loss.) And then you
have the option to switch over if fuel oil prices spike higher than
propane or natural gas, or vice versa.

This is where having a 'Plan B' shines. I have accounts with big
condo buildings with two or three Raypak gas fired hot-water boilers
for DHW in a tankless pipe-circulation system, one of the buildings
has them all in the same room - but plumbed as totally separate
systems. No "Oh Sh*t" valves to tie two sections together for a few
days in case one of the boilers fails. The hot water might get
lukewarm during the "morning rush" but if the residents know, they can
adjust.

-- Bruce --

The pinhole is only the external manifestation of significant metal
loss inside the tank. In other words, It prolly ain't fixable! I had a
10,000 gal. tank that I rehabilitated myself. It took 450 lb. of rod to
build up the thinned out sections to a usable thickness but I was
dealing with 3/8" plate. A pressure rated tank will need to be
recertified under the ASME boiler code. Better to replace the tank with
a lined pressure tank available from a well supply co.
Bugs

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 21:14:24 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:

Lots of great advice. This problem is greatly compounded by the fact that the
shutoff valve which feeds cold potable water to this tank is malfunctioning and
will *not* shut off. It's a gate valve and it's just plain stuck.

Can you shut off the entire water supply, cut the supply line to the
tand and insert another valve?

Anyway, I tried high temperature RTV in conjunction with a sheet metal screw,
let it set up for a couple of hours, no way at all did it hold. Next I cut out a
patch of copper sheet about the size of a 50 cent piece and had a go at sweating
it on using plumber's solder. That's where I am now. Next step is to go cut the
water back on and see if it leaks through my patch. If so, off comes the patch
and I'll try directly brazing up the hole using bronze brazing rod and blue flux.

I know this patch won't hold for long, I'm just trying to get through the
holiday weekend with 4 teenagers here without having no hot water.

How about covering that patch with some more of the RTV and putting a
strap all the way around the tank (like a bandage) to minimize the
possible leakage?

Maybe you could hang some plastic dropsheets around the tank, now that
you have the floor drain working, and in case it springs another leak.

p wrote:

Grant Erwin wrote:

Lots of great advice. This problem is greatly compounded by the fact that the
shutoff valve which feeds cold potable water to this tank is malfunctioning and
will *not* shut off. It's a gate valve and it's just plain stuck.

Can you shut off the entire water supply, cut the supply line to the
tank and insert another valve?

Late last night I did indeed shut all the water to the house off and drained the
line with the stuck valve in it, and I was able to disassemble the valve and get
it unstuck. Now it's working again, and we have hot water.

How about covering that patch with some more of the RTV and putting a
strap all the way around the tank (like a bandage) to minimize the
possible leakage?

No point. The bronze braze is going to hold, it's solid as a rock.

Maybe you could hang some plastic dropsheets around the tank, now that
you have the floor drain working, and in case it springs another leak.

I'm going to replace this tank pretty quick, and now that I have the shutoff
valve working and understand the piping I now realize the tanks are in parallel
and not in series so if I get another leak short-term I can just shut this one
down and drain it into the floor drain and switch over to the electric hot water
heater.

GWE

Sorry to remind you but there are several rules of plumbing:

#1) Never work on plumbing when the stores are closed.
#2) Never work on plumbing when SWMBO is planning a party. (or your
teenagers are all home at the same time)
#3) Violation of Rule #1 and Rule #2 on the same day is NOT in your best
interests
#4) Escape from Rule #3 requires substantial bribery to whomever.


Heh heh. I got my pick of a friend's wine cellar at 4:30 on Thanksgiving
day last year. See, bribery does work.

Grant Erwin wrote:
OK, the copper patch didn't sweat on fully. I took it off, wirebrushed
the area, and brazed a patch just using bronze rod and blue flux as
someone recommended, not that I have any other brazing rod or flux. This
patch is holding up, although I'm positive I didn't do the plastic
lining of the tank any good. Score another one for the O/A torch. Now my
heat's back on and I have hot water. I'll get to replacing the tank when
the plumbing supply store opens on Monday, busted shutoff valve too.
Thanks to everyone, just tons and tons of great advice.

GWE

Grant Erwin wrote:

Lots of great advice. This problem is greatly compounded by the fact
that the shutoff valve which feeds cold potable water to this tank is
malfunctioning and will *not* shut off. It's a gate valve and it's
just plain stuck.

More details: I was wrong, this tank does not store heating water,
only potable water. It has a heat exchanger in it, so boiler water is
circulated through the heat exchanger and the rest of the water is
potable water. This is good news because when I figured this out at
least I could turn my heat back on.

I also have an electric hot water tank and I could have hot water
again if the shutoff valve were working. It's soldered inline onto 1"
copper pipe, and it's going to be a bitch to fix it. The two hot water
tanks are plumbed in series and the electric one is upstream of the
boiler-heated one so if I keep the electric one shut off then I can
drain the boiler-heated one.

So I decided to try patching the leak. First, I took an awl and gently
poked at the pinhole leak. Remember, this tank contains hot water
under approx. 70 psi. Well, what happened was that the pinhole rapidly
opened up and I got sprayed with hot rusty water, along with my
ceiling, etc. The thing that really turned it into a cluster **** was
that the floor drain was plugged with concrete, the *******s must
never have tested it. I was able to chip through it and clear the
J-pipe in the floor and squeegee the water down the floor drain, and
the pools remaining I sucked up with the shop vac, which has seen a
lot of duty tonight, more to come.

Anyway, I tried high temperature RTV in conjunction with a sheet metal
screw, let it set up for a couple of hours, no way at all did it hold.
Next I cut out a patch of copper sheet about the size of a 50 cent
piece and had a go at sweating it on using plumber's solder. That's
where I am now. Next step is to go cut the water back on and see if it
leaks through my patch. If so, off comes the patch and I'll try
directly brazing up the hole using bronze brazing rod and blue flux.

I know this patch won't hold for long, I'm just trying to get through
the holiday weekend with 4 teenagers here without having no hot water.

GWE

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 09:58:43 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:


I have a 10 year old hydronic heating system in my home. There is a
boiler and it leads to a special tank which holds the heated water,
which is circulated on demand through wall registers. The thing that
makes this tank special is that it also holds potable water, i.e. a
hot water tank. The heating and potable water never mix, ever.

My tank has developed a pinhole leak right up on the domed top. I
cannot imagine that there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but the
warranty says that if the house is sold the warranty ends at 5
years. Before I buy a new tank at a whopping $1200, I want to at
least try to fix the pinhole. My heating system guy shook his head
and said "it would never hold" but I don't see how I have much to
lose. There is almost certainly some kind of liner which I'd have to
worry about, so I'd want to use minimum heat.




If it's a lined tank you are probably going to have to stick with
non-heat methods - the lining can be "Glass" (porcelain) or some sort
of epoxy or blown-in-place polyethylene. Either way, the application
of welding or soldering heat is going to be a problem.

And consider what will happen if that patch pops big-time, and you
have a half-inch gusher flowing your water main full out into the room
- is this tank somewhere you'll have huge water damage problems?

I'd try an external epoxy patch as a stop-gap to either buy a few
weeks or get through this winter, and I'd try to work some epoxy
inside the hole to act as a mushroom plug of sorts. If it's a
flexible lining you could use a mechanical seal like the 'boiler patch
bolt' with a big neoprene washer under the head. But if it's a rigid
lining (porcelain) you could crack a big chunk off on the inside and
accelerate the deterioration.

And now the "r.c.m Monster Garage" question: Is it possible to
split up the systems and save a lot of dough in the long run?

Instead of spending $1,200 for that special heat-exchanger tank you
install a plain old electric DHW water heater for $300, and a plain
hot-water storage tank (or a second electric water heater) for the
boiler for roughly the same, and an external water-water heat
exchanger and a pair of wet-rotor circulation pumps to heat the DHW
from the boiler side. You leave the electric heating elements
turned off for normal use,
and if the boiler or the heat exchanger dies, you can fire up the
electric elements as an "Oh, Sh*t" backup heat system.

The storage tanks they sell for solar systems are nothing more than
an electric water heater with no wiring, elements or thermostats
installed. You can even remove the access hatches and see the plugs
in the element holes.

There are other dodges to this, but what fuels do you have available
at the house?

If you have natural gas or propane available, substitute the
appropriate gas water heaters for the storage tanks. (And plug off
the vent flues when not in use to prevent heat loss.) And then you
have the option to switch over if fuel oil prices spike higher than
propane or natural gas, or vice versa.

This is where having a 'Plan B' shines. I have accounts with big
condo buildings with two or three Raypak gas fired hot-water boilers
for DHW in a tankless pipe-circulation system, one of the buildings
has them all in the same room - but plumbed as totally separate
systems. No "Oh Sh*t" valves to tie two sections together for a few
days in case one of the boilers fails. The hot water might get
lukewarm during the "morning rush" but if the residents know, they can
adjust.

-- Bruce --

In the beginning when I thought this tank held heating water, I had the heat
shut off. Seattle is in the middle of a cold snap, gets down to the high teens
at night now. Our house is full of teenagers as it is every other weekend, it's
a 3-day holiday weekend, and today (Sunday) I have to cook a large turkey dinner
for my father-in-law's 70th birthday. About the worst imaginable scenario for
having your home heating and hot water system disabled.

We recently had a one-day gas welding/brazing/soldering class in which our own
Ernie Leimkuhler taught about 20 students the basics. If I hadn't taken that
class I would have never had a prayer of fixing this leak. I wish we could clone
Ernie and put one of him in every metropolitan area, he's an awesome welding
resource.

GWE

RoyJ wrote:
Sorry to remind you but there are several rules of plumbing:

#1) Never work on plumbing when the stores are closed.
#2) Never work on plumbing when SWMBO is planning a party. (or your
teenagers are all home at the same time)
#3) Violation of Rule #1 and Rule #2 on the same day is NOT in your best
interests
#4) Escape from Rule #3 requires substantial bribery to whomever.


Heh heh. I got my pick of a friend's wine cellar at 4:30 on Thanksgiving
day last year. See, bribery does work.

Grant Erwin wrote:

OK, the copper patch didn't sweat on fully. I took it off, wirebrushed
the area, and brazed a patch just using bronze rod and blue flux as
someone recommended, not that I have any other brazing rod or flux.
This patch is holding up, although I'm positive I didn't do the
plastic lining of the tank any good. Score another one for the O/A
torch. Now my heat's back on and I have hot water. I'll get to
replacing the tank when the plumbing supply store opens on Monday,
busted shutoff valve too. Thanks to everyone, just tons and tons of
great advice.

GWE

Grant Erwin wrote:

Lots of great advice. This problem is greatly compounded by the fact
that the shutoff valve which feeds cold potable water to this tank is
malfunctioning and will *not* shut off. It's a gate valve and it's
just plain stuck.

More details: I was wrong, this tank does not store heating water,
only potable water. It has a heat exchanger in it, so boiler water is
circulated through the heat exchanger and the rest of the water is
potable water. This is good news because when I figured this out at
least I could turn my heat back on.

I also have an electric hot water tank and I could have hot water
again if the shutoff valve were working. It's soldered inline onto 1"
copper pipe, and it's going to be a bitch to fix it. The two hot
water tanks are plumbed in series and the electric one is upstream of
the boiler-heated one so if I keep the electric one shut off then I
can drain the boiler-heated one.

So I decided to try patching the leak. First, I took an awl and
gently poked at the pinhole leak. Remember, this tank contains hot
water under approx. 70 psi. Well, what happened was that the pinhole
rapidly opened up and I got sprayed with hot rusty water, along with
my ceiling, etc. The thing that really turned it into a cluster ****
was that the floor drain was plugged with concrete, the *******s must
never have tested it. I was able to chip through it and clear the
J-pipe in the floor and squeegee the water down the floor drain, and
the pools remaining I sucked up with the shop vac, which has seen a
lot of duty tonight, more to come.

Anyway, I tried high temperature RTV in conjunction with a sheet
metal screw, let it set up for a couple of hours, no way at all did
it hold. Next I cut out a patch of copper sheet about the size of a
50 cent piece and had a go at sweating it on using plumber's solder.
That's where I am now. Next step is to go cut the water back on and
see if it leaks through my patch. If so, off comes the patch and I'll
try directly brazing up the hole using bronze brazing rod and blue flux.

I know this patch won't hold for long, I'm just trying to get through
the holiday weekend with 4 teenagers here without having no hot water.

GWE

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 09:58:43 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:


I have a 10 year old hydronic heating system in my home. There is a
boiler and it leads to a special tank which holds the heated water,
which is circulated on demand through wall registers. The thing
that makes this tank special is that it also holds potable water,
i.e. a hot water tank. The heating and potable water never mix, ever.

My tank has developed a pinhole leak right up on the domed top. I
cannot imagine that there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but the
warranty says that if the house is sold the warranty ends at 5
years. Before I buy a new tank at a whopping $1200, I want to at
least try to fix the pinhole. My heating system guy shook his head
and said "it would never hold" but I don't see how I have much to
lose. There is almost certainly some kind of liner which I'd have
to worry about, so I'd want to use minimum heat.





If it's a lined tank you are probably going to have to stick with
non-heat methods - the lining can be "Glass" (porcelain) or some sort
of epoxy or blown-in-place polyethylene. Either way, the application
of welding or soldering heat is going to be a problem.

And consider what will happen if that patch pops big-time, and you
have a half-inch gusher flowing your water main full out into the room
- is this tank somewhere you'll have huge water damage problems?

I'd try an external epoxy patch as a stop-gap to either buy a few
weeks or get through this winter, and I'd try to work some epoxy
inside the hole to act as a mushroom plug of sorts. If it's a
flexible lining you could use a mechanical seal like the 'boiler patch
bolt' with a big neoprene washer under the head. But if it's a rigid
lining (porcelain) you could crack a big chunk off on the inside and
accelerate the deterioration.

And now the "r.c.m Monster Garage" question: Is it possible to
split up the systems and save a lot of dough in the long run?

Instead of spending $1,200 for that special heat-exchanger tank you
install a plain old electric DHW water heater for $300, and a plain
hot-water storage tank (or a second electric water heater) for the
boiler for roughly the same, and an external water-water heat
exchanger and a pair of wet-rotor circulation pumps to heat the DHW
from the boiler side. You leave the electric heating elements
turned off for normal use,
and if the boiler or the heat exchanger dies, you can fire up the
electric elements as an "Oh, Sh*t" backup heat system.

The storage tanks they sell for solar systems are nothing more than
an electric water heater with no wiring, elements or thermostats
installed. You can even remove the access hatches and see the plugs
in the element holes.

There are other dodges to this, but what fuels do you have available
at the house?

If you have natural gas or propane available, substitute the
appropriate gas water heaters for the storage tanks. (And plug off
the vent flues when not in use to prevent heat loss.) And then you
have the option to switch over if fuel oil prices spike higher than
propane or natural gas, or vice versa.

This is where having a 'Plan B' shines. I have accounts with big
condo buildings with two or three Raypak gas fired hot-water boilers
for DHW in a tankless pipe-circulation system, one of the buildings
has them all in the same room - but plumbed as totally separate
systems. No "Oh Sh*t" valves to tie two sections together for a few
days in case one of the boilers fails. The hot water might get
lukewarm during the "morning rush" but if the residents know, they can
adjust.

-- Bruce --

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 16:17:52 GMT, RoyJ wrote:

Sorry to remind you but there are several rules of plumbing:

#1) Never work on plumbing when the stores are closed.
#2) Never work on plumbing when SWMBO is planning a party. (or your
teenagers are all home at the same time)
#3) Violation of Rule #1 and Rule #2 on the same day is NOT in your best
interests
#4) Escape from Rule #3 requires substantial bribery to whomever.


But old Murphy dictated that plumbing (and electrical) problems ONLY
happen when #1 and #2 are true.

Water heater let go Christmas eve (Thursday) afternoon managed to find
a plumbing supply still open who had what I needed in stock so I was
able to replace it.

Furnace blower motor let go a year or two later, coldest night of the
year, and you guessed it - holiday weekend. I managed to find a used
motor I could cobble in to keep the heat on 'till I could get the
right motor.

Last feb we went to friend's cottage - to find the main breaker
sizzling on Friday night. No replacement breaker available, so we went
looking for a new panel Sat morning and mamaged to find one we could
make fit - changed the panel in the dark and in the cold, with a storm
outside and with the panel 'live. Lots of expansion room now as the
new panel has almost twice as many breaker slots than the original
(same overal capacity)
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In article , Grant Erwin says...

In the beginning when I thought this tank held heating water, I had the heat
shut off. Seattle is in the middle of a cold snap, gets down to the high teens
at night now. Our house is full of teenagers as it is every other weekend, it's
a 3-day holiday weekend, and today (Sunday) I have to cook a large turkey
dinner
for my father-in-law's 70th birthday. About the worst imaginable scenario for
having your home heating and hot water system disabled.

We're not gonna talk about the christmas my parents were hosting the
entire extended family, and about an hour before everyone was due to
arrive, the drain line out to the septic tank blocked up.

Grant, at least you go the floor drain working!

Ain't home ownership grand.

Jim


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On 19 Feb 2006 17:41:30 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Grant Erwin says...

In the beginning when I thought this tank held heating water, I had the heat
shut off. Seattle is in the middle of a cold snap, gets down to the high teens
at night now. Our house is full of teenagers as it is every other weekend, it's
a 3-day holiday weekend, and today (Sunday) I have to cook a large turkey
dinner
for my father-in-law's 70th birthday. About the worst imaginable scenario for
having your home heating and hot water system disabled.

We're not gonna talk about the christmas my parents were hosting the
entire extended family, and about an hour before everyone was due to
arrive, the drain line out to the septic tank blocked up.

Grant, at least you go the floor drain working!

Ain't home ownership grand.
Or the Christmas eve that the oven element shorted from the inner
resistance wire to the outer, grounded casing and burned half way
around before SWMBO got hold of me and I got her to pull the stove
away from the wall and pull the plug. Fortunately I had access to
another stove.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Happily, the company (Amtrol) realized that there was no way this tank should be
failing, and is replacing the $1200 tank under warranty. I'm off to pick it up
now. This is an extremely positive development. When I get the old one out I'll
cut it open and report on a post mortem.

NOTE: my original posting was incorrect, this tank does not store heating water,
only potable water; the potable water in the tank is heated via a heat exchanger.

Grant Erwin

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 19:04:17 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:


Grant Erwin wrote:

I have a 10 year old hydronic heating system in my home. There is a boiler and
it leads to a special tank which holds the heated water, which is circulated on
demand through wall registers. The thing that makes this tank special is that it
also holds potable water, i.e. a hot water tank. The heating and potable water
never mix, ever.

My tank has developed a pinhole leak right up on the domed top. I cannot imagine
that there wasn't a manufacturing defect, but the warranty says that if the
house is sold the warranty ends at 5 years. Before I buy a new tank at a
whopping $1200, I want to at least try to fix the pinhole. My heating system guy
shook his head and said "it would never hold" but I don't see how I have much to
lose. There is almost certainly some kind of liner which I'd have to worry
about, so I'd want to use minimum heat.

Anyone have any idea how something like this might be patched? I was thinking of
trying a soft solder perhaps.

GWE

I think you're actually referring to an indirect fired domestic hot
water system.

The "boiler" normally feeds your hydronic baseboards directly with a
circulator pump and zone valves if needed. You DHW normally is provided
one of three different ways, in-boiler tankless DHW coil, separate
standalone water heater with it's own burner, of indirect fired DHW from
a separate heat exchanger tank.

The indirect fired DHW normally has a separate heavily insulated storage
tank with a heat exchanger coil in it. This heat exchanger coil is
normally plumbed to the boiler as an additional zone and there is a
separate thermostat for the DHW tank. It's rather the opposite of the
in-boiler tankless DHW setup where the DHW is in a heat exchanger coil
in the boiler tank.

If this is the case, the tank itself holds the potable DHW water so
anything you use to patch it must be potable water safe. The actual DHW
tank temperature normally should not exceed 130 degrees and your normal
domestic water pressure. The problem is that if the cause of the leak is
general corrosion as opposed to one defective spot, you could have the
heat exchanger coil ready to go as well and the potential for cross
contamination. If you have antifreeze in the boiler side of the system
this would be particularly bad.

I think you need to lookup the exact brand / model tank and determine
exactly what you are dealing with before proceeding.

Pete C.


I would agree - but if I was fixing it I'd braze it with the O/A torch
and the "blue" brazing rod. I'd drain the tank down and open it to
atmospheric pressure, sand the area around the pinhole perfectly
clean, and flow brass on in an area about the size of a quarter or
half-dollar.
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On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 09:26:33 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:

Happily, the company (Amtrol) realized that there was no way this tank should be
failing, and is replacing the $1200 tank under warranty. I'm off to pick it up
now. This is an extremely positive development. When I get the old one out I'll
cut it open and report on a post mortem.

Did Amtrol acknowledge other similar failures with that specific tank?
You'd think they'd like to disect it to pinpoint (no pun intended) why
it failed.

Snarl

wrote:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 09:26:33 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:


Happily, the company (Amtrol) realized that there was no way this tank should be
failing, and is replacing the $1200 tank under warranty. I'm off to pick it up
now. This is an extremely positive development. When I get the old one out I'll
cut it open and report on a post mortem.


Did Amtrol acknowledge other similar failures with that specific tank?
You'd think they'd like to disect it to pinpoint (no pun intended) why
it failed.

Snarl


I didn't talk to Amtrol, our heating contractor did, so I can't answer that
question.

GWE

In article ,
Grant Erwin wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 09:26:33 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:


Happily, the company (Amtrol) realized that there was no way this tank
should be
failing, and is replacing the $1200 tank under warranty. I'm off to pick it
up
now. This is an extremely positive development. When I get the old one out
I'll
cut it open and report on a post mortem.


Did Amtrol acknowledge other similar failures with that specific tank?
You'd think they'd like to disect it to pinpoint (no pun intended) why
it failed.

Snarl


I didn't talk to Amtrol, our heating contractor did, so I can't answer that
question.

GWE

Just a quick heads-up to consider, Grant...

Before you start cutting the beast open, make *SURE* (in writing, if
possible) that Amtrol *DOESN'T* want it back so they can do a
post-mortem on it themselves. Otherwise, you may find yourself getting
billed for the new one because their procedures weren't followed, or
some similar trumped-up excuse.

With the "Find somebody else to take the blame/pick up the tab" society
we've got today, I'd be at least somewhat surprised if they didn't want
the old one back for inspection/testing.

--
Don Bruder - - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd for more info

Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
Grant Erwin wrote:


wrote:

On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 09:26:33 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:



Happily, the company (Amtrol) realized that there was no way this tank
should be
failing, and is replacing the $1200 tank under warranty. I'm off to pick it
up
now. This is an extremely positive development. When I get the old one out
I'll
cut it open and report on a post mortem.


Did Amtrol acknowledge other similar failures with that specific tank?
You'd think they'd like to disect it to pinpoint (no pun intended) why
it failed.

Snarl


I didn't talk to Amtrol, our heating contractor did, so I can't answer that
question.

GWE


Just a quick heads-up to consider, Grant...

Before you start cutting the beast open, make *SURE* (in writing, if
possible) that Amtrol *DOESN'T* want it back so they can do a
post-mortem on it themselves. Otherwise, you may find yourself getting
billed for the new one because their procedures weren't followed, or
some similar trumped-up excuse.

With the "Find somebody else to take the blame/pick up the tab" society
we've got today, I'd be at least somewhat surprised if they didn't want
the old one back for inspection/testing.


I specifically talked to the guy at the commercial plumbing supply about this,
and he had me bring in the actual nameplate from the tank, they do NOT want the
old tank back. They don't much care about QC problems from 11 years ago, but
they don't want someone else claiming a new tank off this serial number either,
so the actual physical plate goes back to the factory, and no replacement gets
issued without that actual plate. Strange system, but effective.

GWE

On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 13:45:55 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 09:26:33 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:

Happily, the company (Amtrol) realized that there was no way this tank should be
failing, and is replacing the $1200 tank under warranty. I'm off to pick it up
now. This is an extremely positive development. When I get the old one out I'll
cut it open and report on a post mortem.

Did Amtrol acknowledge other similar failures with that specific tank?
You'd think they'd like to disect it to pinpoint (no pun intended) why
it failed.

I didn't talk to Amtrol, our heating contractor did, so I can't answer that
question.

Turns out my Dad (in Poulsbo) has a radiant heating system with Amtrol
componants also, just curious what you find out. Thanks.

Snarl

Grant Erwin wrote:

... bring in the actual nameplate from the tank, ...

I had a Sears water heater that leaked under warranty. They had me
bring in the date-of-manufacture sticker from the tank and gave me a new
one (tank, not sticker). They did not want the tank, they didn't even
want to *see* it. Just bring in the sticker, get a new tank. Seemed to
me to be an opportunity for fraud (bring in the sticker from a good tank
and get a new one).

They put a sticker on the new tank that had the same date as the
original tank.

Bob

replying to Robert Swinney, John Duffy wrote:
I have 2 cracks on the top of a well water tank near s small red cap can i
solder them


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