Not good, he has a pellet in his heart, not a joking matter as Jeb Bush and
Scott McClellan have made jokes of the shooting.

"wayne mak" wrote in message
...
Not good, he has a pellet in his heart, not a joking matter as Jeb Bush
and Scott McClellan have made jokes of the shooting.

Geez, people. Lighten up. It's like you never shot anyone and made light
of it later. My brother shot my uncle, and they still joke about it.

It's just because they are Republicans, and the garden variety Joe Woodsman
Democrat can't imagine rich Republicans doing anything with quail unless
they were served on good china. Would it have been different if AlGore had
shot the real Quayle?

Or what about Ted Kennedy? Never mind. No one would have ever heard about
it, and Dan would be in an oil drum in the Chappaquiddick area somewhere
below the mud line.

Steve

Steve B wrote:
"wayne mak" wrote in message
...
Not good, he has a pellet in his heart, not a joking matter as Jeb Bush
and Scott McClellan have made jokes of the shooting.

Geez, people. Lighten up. It's like you never shot anyone and made light
of it later. My brother shot my uncle, and they still joke about it.

It's just because they are Republicans, and the garden variety Joe Woodsman
Democrat can't imagine rich Republicans doing anything with quail unless
they were served on good china. Would it have been different if AlGore had
shot the real Quayle?

The resident office Dem sauntered in here chortling about the latest
news, suggesting a murder charge might be forthcoming. Amazing how these
people can get such glee from the minor misfortunes of the leaders of
our own country.

I'm sorry I am not a party voter at all, I vote for who I feel is best. To
call me of either party is wrong, and if I was shoot I sure would not love a
bunch of jokes.
"Rex B" wrote in message
...
Steve B wrote:
"wayne mak" wrote in message
...
Not good, he has a pellet in his heart, not a joking matter as Jeb Bush
and Scott McClellan have made jokes of the shooting.

Geez, people. Lighten up. It's like you never shot anyone and made
light of it later. My brother shot my uncle, and they still joke about
it.

It's just because they are Republicans, and the garden variety Joe
Woodsman Democrat can't imagine rich Republicans doing anything with
quail unless they were served on good china. Would it have been
different if AlGore had shot the real Quayle?

The resident office Dem sauntered in here chortling about the latest news,
suggesting a murder charge might be forthcoming. Amazing how these people
can get such glee from the minor misfortunes of the leaders of our own
country.

Ignoramus21707 wrote:
Can anyone explain just what happened. Who was where, who arrived
when, who drank what before, who was wearing what color clothes,
etc. Was it an "accidental discharge", or was Cheney intending to
shoot where he shot.

i

From the paper it sounded like a garden variety, perhaps even
non-partisan, hunting accident.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/

In article ,
Ignoramus21707 wrote:

Can anyone explain just what happened. Who was where, who arrived
when, who drank what before, who was wearing what color clothes,
etc. Was it an "accidental discharge", or was Cheney intending to
shoot where he shot.

i

None of those points are relevant. The single relevant concept here is
"Hunter shot Buddy.". It doesn't matter in the least whether "Hunter" is
the sitting veep of the USA, the veep of the NRA, or the veep of a
1-stall garage located at the end of an alley in downtown Bumwad
Alabama. It doesn't matter that it was an "accident". It doesn't matter
that "Hunter" intended to shoot where he shot. What matters is that
"Hunter" screwed up in a major way, and needs to be expecting a big ol'
bucket of **** to come down on him as a result. When you have a gun in
hand, you've got a resonsibiltiy to be *ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN* of your
target and line of fire before you pull the trigger. If you don't know
*EXACTLY* what your round is going to hit, either before or after
hitting the intended target, then you've got no business pulling the
trigger. PERIOD.

(Spare me any gun-phobia commentary, please... I just spent 4 hours on
the rifle range yesterday, for no other reason than I had some time to
kill, and nothing more entertaining/enjoyable readily available to use
as the method of killing it. "Gun-phobic" is one of those concepts that
applies to me *ALMOST* as well as "supersonic fighter plane" applies to
a field-dressed moose carcass.)

--
Don Bruder - - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd for more info

Odds are Cheney intended to shoot in the direction he shot, its just
that the dude that got shot was not supposed to be there.....Cheney
pulled the trigger, but usually on organized hunts as such, its the
usual thing for hunters that leave the group and then come back to the
group to do some from behind and announce they are comming, which
evidenty the fellow with the lead did not do.....



On 14 Feb 2006 21:52:31 GMT, Ignoramus21707
wrote:
Can anyone explain just what happened. Who was where, who arrived
when, who drank what before, who was wearing what color clothes,
etc. Was it an "accidental discharge", or was Cheney intending to
shoot where he shot.

i

--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

"Rex B" wrote

The resident office Dem sauntered in here chortling about the latest news,
suggesting a murder charge might be forthcoming. Amazing how these people
can get such glee from the minor misfortunes of the leaders of our own
country.


You can bet a dollar to a donut hole that if it had been AlGore, he probably
would have blown the guy's head off. And that before they ever got out of
the car.

I remember during the campaign when Al was reminiscing about all the time he
was out in the woods. What was he doing?

Hint:

burying something ..................

Steve

"Don Bruder" wrote

None of those points are relevant. The single relevant concept here is
"Hunter shot Buddy.". It doesn't matter in the least whether "Hunter" is
the sitting veep of the USA, the veep of the NRA, or the veep of a
1-stall garage located at the end of an alley in downtown Bumwad
Alabama. It doesn't matter that it was an "accident". It doesn't matter
that "Hunter" intended to shoot where he shot. What matters is that
"Hunter" screwed up in a major way, and needs to be expecting a big ol'
bucket of **** to come down on him as a result. When you have a gun in
hand, you've got a resonsibiltiy to be *ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN* of your
target and line of fire before you pull the trigger. If you don't know
*EXACTLY* what your round is going to hit, either before or after
hitting the intended target, then you've got no business pulling the
trigger. PERIOD.

Don Bruder -

Small pieces of a bullseye, dead on, accurate post about where the
responsibility lies snipped

Kudos, Sir.

Steve

On 14 Feb 2006 22:10:37 GMT, Ignoramus21707 wrote:

That covers a lot of different scenarios. Was Cheney drunk? Was he
acting recklessly, with gross violations of safety standards? I want
to have a mental picture of what happened.

c'mon, Iggy. It's pretty simple. Guy was off getting a bird out of the
weeds. Another bird flew, cheney tracked it and went bang as it was
lining up with the guy who got shot. Cheney, and probably the other
guy, ****ed up.

Dave Hinz wrote:
On 14 Feb 2006 22:10:37 GMT, Ignoramus21707 wrote:

That covers a lot of different scenarios. Was Cheney drunk? Was he
acting recklessly, with gross violations of safety standards? I want
to have a mental picture of what happened.

c'mon, Iggy. It's pretty simple. Guy was off getting a bird out of the
weeds. Another bird flew, cheney tracked it and went bang as it was
lining up with the guy who got shot. Cheney, and probably the other
guy, ****ed up.

Sounds to me like the first ****up was the bird-dog that did not
retrieve the bird. Maybe Chaney shoulda shot the dog

Rex B wrote:
Dave Hinz wrote:

On 14 Feb 2006 22:10:37 GMT, Ignoramus21707
wrote:

That covers a lot of different scenarios. Was Cheney drunk? Was he
acting recklessly, with gross violations of safety standards? I want
to have a mental picture of what happened.


c'mon, Iggy. It's pretty simple. Guy was off getting a bird out of the
weeds. Another bird flew, cheney tracked it and went bang as it was
lining up with the guy who got shot. Cheney, and probably the other
guy, ****ed up.


Sounds to me like the first ****up was the bird-dog that did not
retrieve the bird. Maybe Chaney shoulda shot the dog

Right. That would certainly be better
than shooting a lawyer....

Ignoramus21707 wrote:

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 14:04:47 -0800, Tim Wescott wrote:

Ignoramus21707 wrote:

Can anyone explain just what happened. Who was where, who arrived
when, who drank what before, who was wearing what color clothes,
etc. Was it an "accidental discharge", or was Cheney intending to
shoot where he shot.

i

From the paper it sounded like a garden variety, perhaps even
non-partisan, hunting accident.


That covers a lot of different scenarios. Was Cheney drunk? Was he
acting recklessly, with gross violations of safety standards? I want
to have a mental picture of what happened.

i
Acording to ABC (is that liberal enough?) the guy shot had gone out
in front to check or retrieve a bird, he was comming back toward
Cheney with the sun at his back (in Cheneys eyes) when another
covey flushed and Cheney took a shot at them.
I use to hunt a lot and it sounds like it was at least half the
other guys fault. He shouldnt have gone in front of the line to
look for a bird. The sun in Cheneys eyes made it easier for the
accident to happen.
...lew...

"Don Bruder" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ignoramus21707 wrote:

Can anyone explain just what happened. Who was where, who arrived
when, who drank what before, who was wearing what color clothes,
etc. Was it an "accidental discharge", or was Cheney intending to
shoot where he shot.

i

None of those points are relevant. The single relevant concept here is
"Hunter shot Buddy.". It doesn't matter in the least whether "Hunter" is
the sitting veep of the USA, the veep of the NRA, or the veep of a
1-stall garage located at the end of an alley in downtown Bumwad
Alabama. It doesn't matter that it was an "accident". It doesn't matter
that "Hunter" intended to shoot where he shot. What matters is that
"Hunter" screwed up in a major way, and needs to be expecting a big ol'
bucket of **** to come down on him as a result. When you have a gun in
hand, you've got a resonsibiltiy to be *ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN* of your
target and line of fire before you pull the trigger. If you don't know
*EXACTLY* what your round is going to hit, either before or after
hitting the intended target, then you've got no business pulling the
trigger. PERIOD.

(Spare me any gun-phobia commentary, please... I just spent 4 hours on
the rifle range yesterday, for no other reason than I had some time to
kill, and nothing more entertaining/enjoyable readily available to use
as the method of killing it. "Gun-phobic" is one of those concepts that
applies to me *ALMOST* as well as "supersonic fighter plane" applies to
a field-dressed moose carcass.)

--
Don Bruder - - If your "From:" address isn't on my
whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text
"PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without
my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd for more
info

I agree completely, But, **** happens! You can not control everything around
you, one of the reasons I no longer hunt! I got tired of being shot at!
Years back I was deer hunting with a bunch of my extended family. I was
posting and getting ready to shoot at a couple of deer when bullets started
whizzing just over my head. I looked over the one deer and saw my cousin
shooting and missing a deer the was between us. I finally fired a shoot
right over his head, into a rock, to get his attention! He ducked, then
looked up, and I waved back. He had buck fever so bad he never paid any
attention to what was on the other side of the deer.
After being shot at pretty much every year, whether it was duck geese,
partridge, or deer I quit!

--
PoorUB
'05 Ultra Classic

"Greg O" wrote


I agree completely, But, **** happens! You can not control everything
around you, one of the reasons I no longer hunt! I got tired of being shot
at!
Years back I was deer hunting with a bunch of my extended family. I was
posting and getting ready to shoot at a couple of deer when bullets
started whizzing just over my head. I looked over the one deer and saw my
cousin shooting and missing a deer the was between us. I finally fired a
shoot right over his head, into a rock, to get his attention! He ducked,
then looked up, and I waved back. He had buck fever so bad he never paid
any attention to what was on the other side of the deer.
After being shot at pretty much every year, whether it was duck geese,
partridge, or deer I quit!

--
PoorUB
'05 Ultra Classic


Hunting in wide open spaces, or on private property affords one a little
more safety. But, as we see here, not much.

I've always been reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally picky about who I have sex with and
who I go hunting and camping with.

Steve

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 17:50:42 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, Andy
Asberry quickly quoth:

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:34:33 -0500, "wayne mak"
wrote:

Not good, he has a pellet in his heart, not a joking matter as Jeb Bush and
Scott McClellan have made jokes of the shooting.

Not exactly accurate; heart area, not in the heart.

Houston - The Texas lawyer accidentally shot by United States Vice
President Dick Cheney during a weekend quail hunt suffered a minor
heart attack on Tuesday when some of the birdshot still in his body
lodged near his heart, a hospital spokesperson said.

Everyone knows this is bull****. Lawyers don't HAVE hearts.


--
Like they say, 99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
------------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Lawyer-free Website Development

"Ignoramus21707" wrote in message
...
Can anyone explain just what happened. Who was where, who arrived
when, who drank what before, who was wearing what color clothes,
etc. Was it an "accidental discharge", or was Cheney intending to
shoot where he shot.

The victim has a few words for Cheney:

Shot through the heart
And you're to blame
You give love a bad name
I play my part and you play your game
You give love a bad name
You give love a bad name

Paint your smile on your lips
Blood red nails on your fingertips
A school boy's dream, you act so shy
Your very first kiss was your first kiss goodbye

You're a loaded gun
There's nowhere to run
No one can save me
The damage is done

None of those points are relevant. The single relevant concept here is
"Hunter shot Buddy.". It doesn't matter in the least whether "Hunter" is


Hunter shot Buddy?

Gunner? Are you still with us?

Ed! Why? I thought you guys were only debating!

"Dave Hinz" wrote: (clip) Another bird flew, cheney tracked it and went
bang as it was lining up with the guy who got shot. Cheney, and probably
the other guy, ****ed up.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes, and there is perfectly acceptable nomenclature for an event like this.
It is called "collateral damage" from "friendly fire."

WELL CHENEY GOT A GUN
CHENEY GOT A GUN
THE WHOLE WORLD'S COME UNDONE
FROM LOOKIN' STRAIGHT AT THE SUN

"Richard Lamb" wrote in message
hlink.net...


None of those points are relevant. The single relevant concept here is
"Hunter shot Buddy.". It doesn't matter in the least whether "Hunter" is


Hunter shot Buddy?

Gunner? Are you still with us?

Ed! Why? I thought you guys were only debating!

g I think of Gunner as a backstop, not as a target...

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Richard Lamb" wrote in message
hlink.net...


None of those points are relevant. The single relevant concept here is
"Hunter shot Buddy.". It doesn't matter in the least whether "Hunter" is


Hunter shot Buddy?

Gunner? Are you still with us?

Ed! Why? I thought you guys were only debating!

g I think of Gunner as a backstop, not as a target...

--
Ed Huntress

g I think of Gunner as a backstop, not as a target...

Speaking of targets, where were all the security people that should
have been present? Did they know, ahead of time, that if they were
along they could also become "targets" and decide instead to hang out
back at the ranch?

dennis
in nca

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Richard Lamb" wrote in message
hlink.net...

None of those points are relevant. The single relevant concept here is
"Hunter shot Buddy.". It doesn't matter in the least whether "Hunter" is


Hunter shot Buddy?

Gunner? Are you still with us?

Ed! Why? I thought you guys were only debating!


g I think of Gunner as a backstop, not as a target...

--
Ed Huntress


Yeah right!
Let's see how this story plays out in 12 hours...
bg

Richard

On 14 Feb 2006 21:52:31 GMT, Ignoramus21707
wrote:

Can anyone explain just what happened. Who was where, who arrived
when, who drank what before, who was wearing what color clothes,
etc. Was it an "accidental discharge", or was Cheney intending to
shoot where he shot.

i

This is what I've read in two newspaper articles and on the net.

There were 3 hunters plus the land owner, who was not hunting, in the
hunting party. (Plus, I assume, numerous Secret Service agents and the
ambulance attendants that were said to be standing by due to Cheney's
health problems.)

According to the land owner, Whittington had shot a bird and had gone
into some tall grass to retrieve it. He was rejoining the others who
had gone on ahead. At this time, another covey flushed and Cheney was
swinging on a bird that flew to his rear. The bird was in line with
Whittington as Cheney fired. He was hit in the cheek, neck and chest.

A preliminary sheriff's report stated that neither drugs nor alcohol
were a factor. All of the hunters were wearing orange vests. The
distance from Cheney to Whittington was 30 yards. Cheney had a
non-resident Texas hunting license but did not have the Upland Game
Bird Stamp. He was issued a citation and bought the $7.00 stamp.

I've been peppered with birdshot before. It stings but only once did
it penetrate the skin. And I realize the skin of a 78 year old is much
thinner. I set out to find some information on shotgun ballistics.

Remember that with birdshot, smaller pellets have higher numbers.
Number 6 shot is twice the weight of number 8 shot. Typical shot sizes
for quail are 7 1/2, 8 and 9. I picked number 8 for my research
because it is the middle size.

Most of the info came from gunshot forensic sites.

Number 6 was the smallest size pellet listed. An individual pellet has
a muzzle energy of 3 ft/lbs. It will penetrate ballistic gelatin
(equivalent to human flesh) 4 to 6 inches at a range of 5 yards. Since
a number 8 is half the weight of number 6, it would have 1.5 ft/lbs of
energy.

What I could not find was the velocity at 30 yards. The muzzle
velocity is about 1200 ft/sec. The drag coefficient of a sphere at
this speed is about 1.27. Maybe someone can calculate the downrange
speed and therefore the remaining energy at 30 yards.

I did find some state wildlife statistics that said only 42% of birds
would be hit and only 10% of birds HIT at that range would die.

Depending on the choke of Cheney's gun, up to 187 pellets could be
expected to hit in a 30 inch circle at 30 yards. That jives with the
doctor's estimate of 200 hitting Whittington. Probably less because no
man can cover a 30 inch circle with his body.

"Andy Asberry" wrote

According to the land owner, Whittington had shot a bird and had gone
into some tall grass to retrieve it. He was rejoining the others who
had gone on ahead. At this time, another covey flushed and Cheney was
swinging on a bird that flew to his rear. The bird was in line with
Whittington as Cheney fired. He was hit in the cheek, neck and chest.


I saw the drawing today of the Texas hunting officials. Man, he really
peppered him, and the marks where it hit the old bird were pretty
concentrated in the upper left chest quadrant, the neck, lower jaw and face.

Looks like a full choke or even a turkey choke. Well, maybe not, but he did
catch a lot of shot in a small area.

That had to hurt.

Steve

According to the land owner, Whittington had shot a bird and had gone
into some tall grass to retrieve it. He was rejoining the others who
had gone on ahead. At this time,


another covey flushed and Cheney was
swinging on a bird that flew to his rear.

Now there is an interesting sentence...


The bird was in line with
Whittington as Cheney fired. He was hit in the cheek, neck and chest.

On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:43:14 -0800, Jim Stewart wrote:
Rex B wrote:

Sounds to me like the first ****up was the bird-dog that did not
retrieve the bird. Maybe Chaney shoulda shot the dog

Right. That would certainly be better
than shooting a lawyer....

What, now it's illegal to use a lawyer as a bird dog in Texas? Who
knew?

On 15 Feb 2006 14:15:42 GMT, Ignoramus7443 wrote:

Thanks Andy. I am very confused. How can birdshot, at a distance of 30
yards, penetrate Whittington so deeply. It does not make sense to
me. My shotgun experience is very limited, as I rarely shoot my
shotgun and usually shoot rifles.

thesmokinggun (.com I think?) has the police report online. Pretty
complete description of what was recorded to have happened, details like
clothing color and all that.

Dave

"Ignoramus7443" wrote

Thanks Andy. I am very confused. How can birdshot, at a distance of 30
yards, penetrate Whittington so deeply. It does not make sense to
me. My shotgun experience is very limited, as I rarely shoot my
shotgun and usually shoot rifles.

i

This past year, we had a buffer crop of quail here in the Las Vegas area.
Some years, we have none.

I have hunted with a Remington 870 Wingmaster for nearly thirty years now.
But, I got a Remington 1100 a while back in a good deal. The 870 has a 28"
modified choke barrel. The 1100 has a 26" with the changeable chokes. The
1100 had an improved choke, so I went and bought a modified.

I took it out and set up a long piece of butcher paper. I paced off thirty
paces, the distance that I would approximately be shooting at, and fired
dead center.

I was thoroughly amazed at how many pellets hit within a 6" x 6" square.
IIRC, it was about 35. If it was a human silhouette, the number would have
been much greater. I was shooting #8 shot low base. Lots of people shoot
high base which gives higher velocity, and less spread for the same
distance.

Tighter chokes like full and turkey will give even tighter patterns.

Take your shotgun out and do some practice shots on paper and on targets.
You will be surprised.

Steve

I think the incident is over blown. Anybody worth his salt that goes hunting
regularly has been peppered once or twice by somebody, it just happens.
Unfortunately this shot was close up. If the Vice -President is using a 28
gauge as reported he must be a very good shot as this gauge is not that
potent compared to a 12 gauge.
Accidents happen, I hope he recovers fully and you anti-gun, anti-Bush
followers can go suck an egg.

"Mike" wrote in message
...
I think the incident is over blown. Anybody worth his salt that goes
hunting
regularly has been peppered once or twice by somebody, it just happens.
Unfortunately this shot was close up. If the Vice -President is using a 28
gauge as reported he must be a very good shot as this gauge is not that
potent compared to a 12 gauge.
Accidents happen, I hope he recovers fully and you anti-gun, anti-Bush
followers can go suck an egg.

Damned right. If Bush or Cheney shoot somebody, that's their business.
Executive priviledge, and all that.

--
Ed Huntress

Whittington was in a washout - a depression - so only his head and upper torso
were visible. The Chaney stated the first I saw him was as he dropped.

That had to been a heart stopper for Chaney at the time! Normally a dog
or someone gets it in the behind - since the orange doesn't show well while
bending over.

Martin

Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



Steve B wrote:
"Andy Asberry" wrote


According to the land owner, Whittington had shot a bird and had gone
into some tall grass to retrieve it. He was rejoining the others who
had gone on ahead. At this time, another covey flushed and Cheney was
swinging on a bird that flew to his rear. The bird was in line with
Whittington as Cheney fired. He was hit in the cheek, neck and chest.



I saw the drawing today of the Texas hunting officials. Man, he really
peppered him, and the marks where it hit the old bird were pretty
concentrated in the upper left chest quadrant, the neck, lower jaw and face.

Looks like a full choke or even a turkey choke. Well, maybe not, but he did
catch a lot of shot in a small area.

That had to hurt.

Steve



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
"Mike" wrote in message
...
I think the incident is over blown. Anybody worth his salt that goes
hunting
regularly has been peppered once or twice by somebody, it just happens.
Unfortunately this shot was close up. If the Vice -President is using a
28
gauge as reported he must be a very good shot as this gauge is not that
potent compared to a 12 gauge.
Accidents happen, I hope he recovers fully and you anti-gun, anti-Bush
followers can go suck an egg.

Damned right. If Bush or Cheney shoot somebody, that's their business.
Executive priviledge, and all that.

--
Ed Huntress



Well, you do have to admit that down through history, presidents, and even
lowly Congressmen did get away with quite a bit when compared to the
"average" man.

I won't mention any names, but some of them were even Democrats.

Steve

"Steve B" wrote in message
news:g3SIf.39800$JT.5413@fed1read06...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
"Mike" wrote in message
...
I think the incident is over blown. Anybody worth his salt that goes
hunting
regularly has been peppered once or twice by somebody, it just happens.
Unfortunately this shot was close up. If the Vice -President is using a
28
gauge as reported he must be a very good shot as this gauge is not that
potent compared to a 12 gauge.
Accidents happen, I hope he recovers fully and you anti-gun, anti-Bush
followers can go suck an egg.

Damned right. If Bush or Cheney shoot somebody, that's their business.
Executive priviledge, and all that.

--
Ed Huntress



Well, you do have to admit that down through history, presidents, and even
lowly Congressmen did get away with quite a bit when compared to the
"average" man.

I won't mention any names, but some of them were even Democrats.

Let's see if we can now deflect attention from the fact that our current
veep, Vice President Strangelove, is probably the most bizarre freak we've
had in that office in a generation.

As a former NRA Safe Hunter instructor, an NRA- and NY State-certified rifle
instructor, a hunter for 46 years, and a former DCM range officer, I have an
opinion about hunting accidents that involve shooting somebody who is
*behind* you. What's your opinion, Steve?

FWIW, most of the time -- not always, but most of the time -- a guy who
shoots somebody in a hunting accident is a boob and a ****-up. This sounds
like one of those to me. They probably do their quail hunting a little
differently down South but I don't think that shooting your hunting partner
is part of the routine, is it?

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Steve B" wrote in message
news:g3SIf.39800$JT.5413@fed1read06...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
"Mike" wrote in message
...
I think the incident is over blown. Anybody worth his salt that goes
hunting
regularly has been peppered once or twice by somebody, it just happens.
Unfortunately this shot was close up. If the Vice -President is using a
28
gauge as reported he must be a very good shot as this gauge is not that
potent compared to a 12 gauge.
Accidents happen, I hope he recovers fully and you anti-gun, anti-Bush
followers can go suck an egg.

Damned right. If Bush or Cheney shoot somebody, that's their business.
Executive priviledge, and all that.

--
Ed Huntress



Well, you do have to admit that down through history, presidents, and even
lowly Congressmen did get away with quite a bit when compared to the
"average" man.

I won't mention any names, but some of them were even Democrats.

Let's see if we can now deflect attention from the fact that our current
veep, Vice President Strangelove, is probably the most bizarre freak we've
had in that office in a generation.

As a former NRA Safe Hunter instructor, an NRA- and NY State-certified rifle
instructor, a hunter for 46 years, and a former DCM range officer, I have an
opinion about hunting accidents that involve shooting somebody who is
*behind* you. What's your opinion, Steve?

FWIW, most of the time -- not always, but most of the time -- a guy who
shoots somebody in a hunting accident is a boob and a ****-up. This sounds
like one of those to me. They probably do their quail hunting a little
differently down South but I don't think that shooting your hunting partner
is part of the routine, is it?

--
Ed Huntress

As a former Marine pistol range instructor, I agree that Mr. Cheney
shouldn't be using a weapon without additional hunter safety training.
It's the "Vice President Strangelove" and "bizarre freak" part that I
don't get. Sounds like something out of a Michael Moore movie.
GW

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Steve B" wrote in message
news:g3SIf.39800$JT.5413@fed1read06...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
"Mike" wrote in message
...
I think the incident is over blown. Anybody worth his salt that goes
hunting
regularly has been peppered once or twice by somebody, it just happens.
Unfortunately this shot was close up. If the Vice -President is using a
28
gauge as reported he must be a very good shot as this gauge is not that
potent compared to a 12 gauge.
Accidents happen, I hope he recovers fully and you anti-gun, anti-Bush
followers can go suck an egg.

Damned right. If Bush or Cheney shoot somebody, that's their business.
Executive priviledge, and all that.

--
Ed Huntress



Well, you do have to admit that down through history, presidents, and even
lowly Congressmen did get away with quite a bit when compared to the
"average" man.

I won't mention any names, but some of them were even Democrats.

Let's see if we can now deflect attention from the fact that our current
veep, Vice President Strangelove, is probably the most bizarre freak we've
had in that office in a generation.

As a former NRA Safe Hunter instructor, an NRA- and NY State-certified rifle
instructor, a hunter for 46 years, and a former DCM range officer, I have an
opinion about hunting accidents that involve shooting somebody who is
*behind* you. What's your opinion, Steve?

FWIW, most of the time -- not always, but most of the time -- a guy who
shoots somebody in a hunting accident is a boob and a ****-up. This sounds
like one of those to me. They probably do their quail hunting a little
differently down South but I don't think that shooting your hunting partner
is part of the routine, is it?

--
Ed Huntress

Say Ed:

As I've never been on a bird hunt would you mind bringing me (and
perhaps some others) up-to-speed on how it's supposed to work to insure
safety?

If you have three hunters walking in line and one brings down a bird do
the other two hunters just proceed forward? If they do proceed forward
are they obligated to remember there was someone behind them?

I'd just like to throw in here I imagine the reason for the delay in
reporting the incident was to assure themeless of the judge's
condition. After all the dredging up of the Ted Kennedy thing on this
topic I begin to wonder if they hadn't been considering the possibility
of some type of cover-up if this had gone more sour for the VP. It
might be interesting to know (although I'm sure we never will) who and
how many in the gov. knew about this early on. Got to give the spin
doctors time to work you know.

dennis
in nca

"In my world, the fact that someone was hit by his fire constitutes
prima facie evidence of recklessness and gross violation of safety
standards - Whether he was drinking or not is irrelevant except as a
consideration for the penalty phase of whatever develops. (As in "He
was
drinking? Penalty is doubled/tripled/more." versus "He wasn't? OK,
penalty stands as initially called.") Alcohol and gunpowder don't mix
any better than alcohol and gasoline. "

I agree.

Alcohol was very likely involved.

And without the proper game fees being paid, they were also
poaching....no surprise when you consider the track record of this
Administration thinking that they are above the laws that govern the
rest of us mere mortals.

The holder of the gun is ALWAYS responsible for ALL damages, both
financial and physical, caused by the firearm.

While I have no research to cite, in my own personal experiences many
of those who support the use of guns also supposely support gun
responsibility...that is until an incident occurs. It is telling to see
those desparate to do damage control to make excuses, protray the
victum at fault and attempt to deflect responsibility by referencing a
decades old Democratic incident. I would think as an intelligent
citizen you would see through this shame for what it is.

Owning up to one's personal responsibility is a hallmark of ethical
maturity...and is the minimum that the public should require from its
elected leaders.

Time to "walk the talk" boys and girls.

TMT

"Sounds like something out of a Michael Moore movie"

If Moore is writing the screen plot right now, he is missing a great
chance for another movie.

Heck....I would even rent this one.

TMT

On 16 Feb 2006 13:04:49 -0800, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

Owning up to one's personal responsibility is a hallmark of ethical
maturity...and is the minimum that the public should require from its
elected leaders.

Cheney took full responsibility for this, what Moore do ya want?

Time to "walk the talk" boys and girls.

It was a ****in' accident fer cryin' out loud. **** happens.
Actually, that happens quite frequently, I have some bird shot in my
neck from a partner who accidently peppered me while we were pheasant
hunting. He was extremely sorry, as was Cheney I'd imagine. Nobody
wants to injure a friend.

Go fry some other fish, ain't like ya don't have plenty of 'em
available.

Th' only news here is that th' DC press corps didn't have this one
handed to 'em on a silver platter while it was still hot, big ****in'
deal. Perhaps they need to actually work for a living once in awhile.

Snarl

In article .com,
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote:

"In my world, the fact that someone was hit by his fire constitutes
prima facie evidence of recklessness and gross violation of safety
standards - Whether he was drinking or not is irrelevant except as a
consideration for the penalty phase of whatever develops. (As in "He
was
drinking? Penalty is doubled/tripled/more." versus "He wasn't? OK,
penalty stands as initially called.") Alcohol and gunpowder don't mix
any better than alcohol and gasoline. "

I agree.

Alcohol was very likely involved.

With the circumstances as reported so far, I'd be inclined to disagree.
A beer (the only alcohol I've seen reported with anything that sounds
like reliability so far) "several" (I'm assuming "several" is a number
greater than 2) hours before they hit the field is a non-issue, and even
the sheriff's release specifically states that alcohol is not believed
to be a factor.

So yes - At this point, we have an accidental/negligent shooting.
Which implies to me recklessness and gross violation of safety
standards, the most important one being "do not fire unless you are
*ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN* of your target". A man being hit by a shot fired
from a gun the shooter is holding is all the evidence it takes to
convince me that this rule, and the closely related rule, "Know exactly
what your shot is going to hit - whether it's in front of or behind your
intended target", have been violated.

What we have no evidence of (and a specific statement contrary to such
speculation made by a LEO) so far is a drunk gunman.

And without the proper game fees being paid, they were also
poaching....

Now this little nugget bothers me. People talk about making a mountain
out of a molehill...

With the exception of one article on the incident - I think it
accompanied the release of the Game Warden's report on the shooting - it
seems that everybody who has mentioned the license issue has forgotten
to also mention that Dick sent one of his SS guys to get the stamp for
quail, but apparently the SS guy, through misunderstanding, non-hunter
ignorance, confusion, or some other reason, came back with a stamp that
covered goose, rather than quail - A stamp that Dick already had, is
slightly more expensive than the correct one, and which doesn't do
anything useful if you have more than one of them.

I'd hardly call that poaching. At least, not unless I was trying
desperately hard to find an excuse to be a complete asshole. A clerical
mixup, certainly. But poaching? Gimme a break.

(And for the record, no, I'm no fan of either Dick or GW, but come on...
let's try to be at least a *LITTLE* realistic in how we try to slag
them, huh?)

--
Don Bruder - - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd for more info