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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
I was just looking up expansion rates of metal for another post. The
next column in the Machinery's Handbook lists electrical conductivity ratings. I have worked with electricity in one way or another, most of my life, but I never realized how poorly some metals that are commonly associated with electrical connections are! With Silver as Conductivity = 100, Copper = 97.61 Yup. Lead = 8.42 !!! No wonder car batteries get hot!!! Tin =14.39 !!! Lead and tin are the main constituents of most soft solders. If you ever needed a case for making a good mechanical joint before soldering, there it is! Oh-- page 2193 of the 19th edition. Pete Stanaitis |
#2
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
spaco wrote:
I was just looking up expansion rates of metal for another post. The next column in the Machinery's Handbook lists electrical conductivity ratings. I have worked with electricity in one way or another, most of my life, but I never realized how poorly some metals that are commonly associated with electrical connections are! With Silver as Conductivity = 100, Copper = 97.61 Yup. Lead = 8.42 !!! No wonder car batteries get hot!!! Tin =14.39 !!! Lead and tin are the main constituents of most soft solders. If you ever needed a case for making a good mechanical joint before soldering, there it is! Oh-- page 2193 of the 19th edition. Pete Stanaitis Interesting... wonder what the conductivity of the "leadless" solders and "silver bearing solders" are. |
#3
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
A guy I know told me about how he thought his tooth enamel wasn't conductive
until he stripped the insulation on a plugged-in extension cord with his teeth. |
#4
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
In article , spaco says...
Tin =14.39 !!! Lead and tin are the main constituents of most soft solders. If you ever needed a case for making a good mechanical joint before soldering, there it is! Make a joint that is well-wrapped mechanically. Measure it's resistance. Then solder it. I bet you a case of cokes that it's lower resistance once it's soldered. Then make the joint, without wrapping it first, only soldering. I bet another case of cokes the two soldered joints will have the same resistance. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
#5
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
spaco wrote:
I was just looking up expansion rates of metal for another post. The next column in the Machinery's Handbook lists electrical conductivity ratings. I have worked with electricity in one way or another, most of my life, but I never realized how poorly some metals that are commonly associated with electrical connections are! With Silver as Conductivity = 100, Copper = 97.61 Yup. Lead = 8.42 !!! No wonder car batteries get hot!!! Tin =14.39 !!! Lead and tin are the main constituents of most soft solders. If you ever needed a case for making a good mechanical joint before soldering, there it is! Oh-- page 2193 of the 19th edition. Pete Stanaitis I 'spect that the usually thin sections and its intimate contact with materials having high thermal conductivity makes the poorer electrical conductivity of lead/tin solders not such a beeg problem, 'eh? P.S. I heard somewhere recently that someone calculated that there's more copper existing in wiring and plumbing in the USA than remains in the known national reserves. Can anyone confirm that? Jeff (Who remembers visiting that big open pit copper mine in Coppertown, Utah circa 1955.) -- Jeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented." |
#6
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Yipes! That certainly fits the subject.
Steve Tom Gardner wrote: A guy I know told me about how he thought his tooth enamel wasn't conductive until he stripped the insulation on a plugged-in extension cord with his teeth. |
#7
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
How Darwinian of him.
Bob Swinney "Tom Gardner" wrote in message m... A guy I know told me about how he thought his tooth enamel wasn't conductive until he stripped the insulation on a plugged-in extension cord with his teeth. |
#8
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Very interesting!
Which then suggests brazing electrical connections? You omitted alum, nickel, gold. Old wiring, at least in parts of NY, were soldered AND wire nutted!! I think soldering of splices in house wiring is a very good, safe idea. Just not all that convenient. Now here's sumpn fer you electricians: I have old cloth-covered #9-10 solid wire in my old cloth-covered house, and sed wire is, I believe, *silver plated*!!!! Well, plated w/ sumpn, brite and shiny. If it *is* silver, it is a marvelous idea, because sposedly the bulk of the current density in a conducting wire lies on the surface of the wire. If it's tin plated, the question is then *why*! Nickel?? Might make sense then, to silver, or even copper plate aluminum wire. Like our pennies. -- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll "spaco" wrote in message .. . I was just looking up expansion rates of metal for another post. The next column in the Machinery's Handbook lists electrical conductivity ratings. I have worked with electricity in one way or another, most of my life, but I never realized how poorly some metals that are commonly associated with electrical connections are! With Silver as Conductivity = 100, Copper = 97.61 Yup. Lead = 8.42 !!! No wonder car batteries get hot!!! Tin =14.39 !!! Lead and tin are the main constituents of most soft solders. If you ever needed a case for making a good mechanical joint before soldering, there it is! Oh-- page 2193 of the 19th edition. Pete Stanaitis |
#9
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Copper corrodes. It turns pretty green and blue. It eats up the wire.
If it is plated with something - it won't. If you remember the old telephone lines - those with lots stretched across crossbars.... Those are copper covered Steel. Thick - but it is known once the copper is breached - as the steel changes the resistance. Methods were developed to calculate the distance of the open, break or change in impedance. We got some of this when the lines were falling down - abandoned lines. They were on Air force property and old telegraph/telephone lines. We used it in a massive grape arbor - strong steel copper clad wire. Learned to coil wire with two hands that day. Martin Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH & Endowment Member NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder Proctologically Violated©® wrote: Very interesting! Which then suggests brazing electrical connections? You omitted alum, nickel, gold. Old wiring, at least in parts of NY, were soldered AND wire nutted!! I think soldering of splices in house wiring is a very good, safe idea. Just not all that convenient. Now here's sumpn fer you electricians: I have old cloth-covered #9-10 solid wire in my old cloth-covered house, and sed wire is, I believe, *silver plated*!!!! Well, plated w/ sumpn, brite and shiny. If it *is* silver, it is a marvelous idea, because sposedly the bulk of the current density in a conducting wire lies on the surface of the wire. If it's tin plated, the question is then *why*! Nickel?? Might make sense then, to silver, or even copper plate aluminum wire. Like our pennies. -- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll "spaco" wrote in message .. . I was just looking up expansion rates of metal for another post. The next column in the Machinery's Handbook lists electrical conductivity ratings. I have worked with electricity in one way or another, most of my life, but I never realized how poorly some metals that are commonly associated with electrical connections are! With Silver as Conductivity = 100, Copper = 97.61 Yup. Lead = 8.42 !!! No wonder car batteries get hot!!! Tin =14.39 !!! Lead and tin are the main constituents of most soft solders. If you ever needed a case for making a good mechanical joint before soldering, there it is! Oh-- page 2193 of the 19th edition. Pete Stanaitis ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#10
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Tom Gardner wrote:
A guy I know told me about how he thought his tooth enamel wasn't conductive until he stripped the insulation on a plugged-in extension cord with his teeth. **HE** told you? I would have expected to hear about THIS one from the CORONER! WOW! I got my tongue across a 9 V battery once, when I was 99.9% sure it was dead. It may have been weak, but definitely was not dead. I can't even imagine what 120 V in the mouth would be like. Better not talk about this too much or we'll hear about it being used at Abu Ghraib in next week's papers! Jon |
#11
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Jeff Wisnia wrote:
P.S. I heard somewhere recently that someone calculated that there's more copper existing in wiring and plumbing in the USA than remains in the known national reserves. Can anyone confirm that? There are totally MASSIVE amounts of copper in power company transformers all over the place. I suspect that the total copper in the little distribution transformers on everybody's power poles are a bit more than the amount in the substation transformers serving them, but it all adds up. The copper in generating station alternators is also pretty huge. Most power company transmission lines are aluminum with steel strength cables in the center. Jon |
#12
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
I have old cloth-covered #9-10 solid wire in my old cloth-covered house, and sed wire is, I believe, *silver plated*!!!! Well, plated w/ sumpn, brite and shiny. No way is it Silver! It is most likely tin or solder. Unless, of course, it is aluminum wire. If it is aluminum, be VERY careful to only use the proper aluminum-rated connections on everything - breakers, switches, outlets, etc. And, torque all connections every 10 years or so. Or, replace the damn fire hazard stuff with copper at the earliest convenience. If it *is* silver, it is a marvelous idea, because sposedly the bulk of the current density in a conducting wire lies on the surface of the wire. If it's tin plated, the question is then *why*! For anti-corrosion properties. Tin and solder don't corrode quickly. Tin oxide is a pretty good conductor, too, as it is used to make the see-through wiring on the glass plates of LCD displays. Silver DOES corrode badly in the ever-present sulfur compounds in our dirty air. It turns deeply black, which is why if the stuff on your wires still looks "silver", it isn't Silver. Wire wrap wire IS plated with pure Ag, and it definitely tarnishes on the outside of wire-wrap joints over time. That doesn't seem to keep them from still working, though. Jon |
#13
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Respectively beg to differ, Martin. The standard telephone wire was #9
copper. It was copper, not plated with anything. There is quite a lot of it still around. Generally the telegraph lines were heavier and sometimes they were made of iron. I'm not sure why - extra storm protection maybe. The old wire chiefs had fault location down to a science. One of the first jobs I had was working on the AT&T Long Lines test board. There were several tests used. Wheatstone and Varley were a couple I recall. I had the privilege of working under a retirement aged test boardman. He taught me a lot. That was my first encounter with a Wheatstone bridge. The bridge was part of the test board, where the test guys could patch into the various circuits - and isolate them from traffic. Elaborate resistance records were kept on each circuit (pair of #9 line wires). Those records were continually updated. They made it possible for a wire chief on the test board to locate the distance out to a line fault. This was all done away with when the TDR (Time Domain Reflectometer) was perfected. Crossbars, unless you are referring to the common crossbar switch in central offices, were out on the poles and known as *cross arms*. Little known trivia: Coast - to - coast telephone circuits existed before electronic amplification. This were done using lumped inductance loaded, heavy wire pairs, generally the lower capacitive, "pole pair". Expensive enough it made most folks send telegrams. Bob Swinney "Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message ... Copper corrodes. It turns pretty green and blue. It eats up the wire. If it is plated with something - it won't. If you remember the old telephone lines - those with lots stretched across crossbars.... Those are copper covered Steel. Thick - but it is known once the copper is breached - as the steel changes the resistance. Methods were developed to calculate the distance of the open, break or change in impedance. We got some of this when the lines were falling down - abandoned lines. They were on Air force property and old telegraph/telephone lines. We used it in a massive grape arbor - strong steel copper clad wire. Learned to coil wire with two hands that day. Martin Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH & Endowment Member NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder Proctologically Violated©® wrote: Very interesting! Which then suggests brazing electrical connections? You omitted alum, nickel, gold. Old wiring, at least in parts of NY, were soldered AND wire nutted!! I think soldering of splices in house wiring is a very good, safe idea. Just not all that convenient. Now here's sumpn fer you electricians: I have old cloth-covered #9-10 solid wire in my old cloth-covered house, and sed wire is, I believe, *silver plated*!!!! Well, plated w/ sumpn, brite and shiny. If it *is* silver, it is a marvelous idea, because sposedly the bulk of the current density in a conducting wire lies on the surface of the wire. If it's tin plated, the question is then *why*! Nickel?? Might make sense then, to silver, or even copper plate aluminum wire. Like our pennies. -- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll "spaco" wrote in message .. . I was just looking up expansion rates of metal for another post. The next column in the Machinery's Handbook lists electrical conductivity ratings. I have worked with electricity in one way or another, most of my life, but I never realized how poorly some metals that are commonly associated with electrical connections are! With Silver as Conductivity = 100, Copper = 97.61 Yup. Lead = 8.42 !!! No wonder car batteries get hot!!! Tin =14.39 !!! Lead and tin are the main constituents of most soft solders. If you ever needed a case for making a good mechanical joint before soldering, there it is! Oh-- page 2193 of the 19th edition. Pete Stanaitis ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#14
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message ... snip------- Jeff (Who remembers visiting that big open pit copper mine in Coppertown, Utah circa 1955.) Well, Jeff (Who remembers visiting that big open pit copper mine in Coppertown, Utah circa 1955.), I've been gone from Utah for ten years now, but if you were to return to the same mine, you wouldn't recognize it. For one, do you recall driving through a long tunnel, from Bingham Canyon to Copperfield, the town on the other side of the tunnel? That's where the observation point was when you go back far enough in time, for which '55 should qualify. Not only is the tunnel no longer there, neither is the mountain. It has all been mined and is now a much larger hole in the ground. It was that way when I left Utah. I can't imagine what it must look like now. Bingham Canyon was one of the places that was a complete throwback in time. Not much changed there, it just slowly died off and was destroyed by the mine. Narrow street, just barely wide enough for one car to pass another, I have fond memories of the place. The town you mentioned, Copperton (not Coppertown), is actually a couple miles outside of the mining district, and was, for the most part, the company town. It still exists as far as I know. Everything else is long gone. Harold |
#15
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
"Robert Swinney" wrote in message . .. Respectively beg to differ, Martin. The standard telephone wire was #9 copper. It was copper, not plated with anything. There is quite a lot of it still around. Generally the telegraph lines were heavier and sometimes they were made of iron. I'm not sure why - extra storm protection maybe. Toll lines, yes. The long distance lines were copper. The drops used for houses were, indeed, copper covered steel wire. Black rubber-like insulation with a pair of wires within-----sort of an overgrown version of 300 ohm TV cable----that had no value when taken to the salvage yard. Any of us old scroungers know that. Harold |
#16
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
allow me to point out to you that the surface effect is negligible at
power line frequencies - at RF frequencies it becomes significant. the coating is for corosion resistance. To study further, look up surface effect - you can derive it yourself if you care to solve maxwell's equations as a function of freq. On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 20:40:09 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®" wrote: Very interesting! Which then suggests brazing electrical connections? You omitted alum, nickel, gold. Old wiring, at least in parts of NY, were soldered AND wire nutted!! I think soldering of splices in house wiring is a very good, safe idea. Just not all that convenient. Now here's sumpn fer you electricians: I have old cloth-covered #9-10 solid wire in my old cloth-covered house, and sed wire is, I believe, *silver plated*!!!! Well, plated w/ sumpn, brite and shiny. If it *is* silver, it is a marvelous idea, because sposedly the bulk of the current density in a conducting wire lies on the surface of the wire. If it's tin plated, the question is then *why*! Nickel?? Might make sense then, to silver, or even copper plate aluminum wire. Like our pennies. Bill www.wbnoble.com to contact me, do not reply to this message, instead correct this address and use it will iam_ b_ No ble at msn daught com |
#17
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Seems to me simple coulombic forces (very large, btw) would drive the
electrons radially outwards. Assuming the wire were actually momentarily charged, like a capacitor.... Which, then, mebbe it's not, so then my argument fails.... much too confusing.... I think I'll solve Maxwell's Equations tonite, during CSI or sumpn..... -- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll "William B Noble (don't reply to this address)" wrote in message ... allow me to point out to you that the surface effect is negligible at power line frequencies - at RF frequencies it becomes significant. the coating is for corosion resistance. To study further, look up surface effect - you can derive it yourself if you care to solve maxwell's equations as a function of freq. On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 20:40:09 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®" wrote: Very interesting! Which then suggests brazing electrical connections? You omitted alum, nickel, gold. Old wiring, at least in parts of NY, were soldered AND wire nutted!! I think soldering of splices in house wiring is a very good, safe idea. Just not all that convenient. Now here's sumpn fer you electricians: I have old cloth-covered #9-10 solid wire in my old cloth-covered house, and sed wire is, I believe, *silver plated*!!!! Well, plated w/ sumpn, brite and shiny. If it *is* silver, it is a marvelous idea, because sposedly the bulk of the current density in a conducting wire lies on the surface of the wire. If it's tin plated, the question is then *why*! Nickel?? Might make sense then, to silver, or even copper plate aluminum wire. Like our pennies. Bill www.wbnoble.com to contact me, do not reply to this message, instead correct this address and use it will iam_ b_ No ble at msn daught com |
#18
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Yup. It was "P" wire. I still have some "P clamps around here someplace.
Pete Stanaitis ----------------- Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: "Robert Swinney" wrote in message . .. Respectively beg to differ, Martin. The standard telephone wire was #9 copper. It was copper, not plated with anything. There is quite a lot of it still around. Generally the telegraph lines were heavier and sometimes they were made of iron. I'm not sure why - extra storm protection maybe. Toll lines, yes. The long distance lines were copper. The drops used for houses were, indeed, copper covered steel wire. Black rubber-like insulation with a pair of wires within-----sort of an overgrown version of 300 ohm TV cable----that had no value when taken to the salvage yard. Any of us old scroungers know that. Harold |
#19
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Robert Swinney wrote:
Respectively beg to differ, Martin. The standard telephone wire was #9 copper. It was copper, not plated with anything. There is quite a lot of it still around. Generally the telegraph lines were heavier and sometimes they were made of iron. I'm not sure why - extra storm protection maybe. Robert. You must have been working with the original transcontinental telephone lines. They were indeed 9 or 10 gage solid copper wire. However many later Open Wire lines were smaller gage and copper steel. Many farmer lines used Iron as I think it was cheaper Bill K7NOM The old wire chiefs had fault location down to a science. One of the first jobs I had was working on the AT&T Long Lines test board. There were several tests used. Wheatstone and Varley were a couple I recall. I had the privilege of working under a retirement aged test boardman. He taught me a lot. That was my first encounter with a Wheatstone bridge. The bridge was part of the test board, where the test guys could patch into the various circuits - and isolate them from traffic. Elaborate resistance records were kept on each circuit (pair of #9 line wires). Those records were continually updated. They made it possible for a wire chief on the test board to locate the distance out to a line fault. This was all done away with when the TDR (Time Domain Reflectometer) was perfected. Crossbars, unless you are referring to the common crossbar switch in central offices, were out on the poles and known as *cross arms*. Little known trivia: Coast - to - coast telephone circuits existed before electronic amplification. This were done using lumped inductance loaded, heavy wire pairs, generally the lower capacitive, "pole pair". Expensive enough it made most folks send telegrams. Bob Swinney "Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message ... Copper corrodes. It turns pretty green and blue. It eats up the wire. If it is plated with something - it won't. If you remember the old telephone lines - those with lots stretched across crossbars.... Those are copper covered Steel. Thick - but it is known once the copper is breached - as the steel changes the resistance. Methods were developed to calculate the distance of the open, break or change in impedance. We got some of this when the lines were falling down - abandoned lines. They were on Air force property and old telegraph/telephone lines. We used it in a massive grape arbor - strong steel copper clad wire. Learned to coil wire with two hands that day. Martin Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH & Endowment Member NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder Proctologically Violated©® wrote: Very interesting! Which then suggests brazing electrical connections? You omitted alum, nickel, gold. Old wiring, at least in parts of NY, were soldered AND wire nutted!! I think soldering of splices in house wiring is a very good, safe idea. Just not all that convenient. Now here's sumpn fer you electricians: I have old cloth-covered #9-10 solid wire in my old cloth-covered house, and sed wire is, I believe, *silver plated*!!!! Well, plated w/ sumpn, brite and shiny. If it *is* silver, it is a marvelous idea, because sposedly the bulk of the current density in a conducting wire lies on the surface of the wire. If it's tin plated, the question is then *why*! Nickel?? Might make sense then, to silver, or even copper plate aluminum wire. Like our pennies. -- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll "spaco" wrote in message t... I was just looking up expansion rates of metal for another post. The next column in the Machinery's Handbook lists electrical conductivity ratings. I have worked with electricity in one way or another, most of my life, but I never realized how poorly some metals that are commonly associated with electrical connections are! With Silver as Conductivity = 100, Copper = 97.61 Yup. Lead = 8.42 !!! No wonder car batteries get hot!!! Tin =14.39 !!! Lead and tin are the main constituents of most soft solders. If you ever needed a case for making a good mechanical joint before soldering, there it is! Oh-- page 2193 of the 19th edition. Pete Stanaitis ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#20
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Jon Elson wrote: If it *is* silver, it is a marvelous idea, because sposedly the bulk of the current density in a conducting wire lies on the surface of the wire. If it's tin plated, the question is then *why*! For anti-corrosion properties. Tin and solder don't corrode quickly. Tin oxide is a pretty good conductor, too, as it is used to make the see-through wiring on the glass plates of LCD displays. Silver DOES corrode badly in the ever-present sulfur compounds in our dirty air. It turns deeply black, which is why if the stuff on your wires still looks "silver", it isn't Silver. .. Jon Or, perhaps, to make it easier to solder. Nothing easier to solder - and with a greater chance of getting perfect wetting - than pieces already tinned. John Martin |
#21
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
If it *is* silver, it is a marvelous idea, because sposedly the bulk of the current density in a conducting wire lies on the surface of the wire. If it's tin plated, the question is then *why*! Nickel?? Skin effect (current flowing on the surface of a conductor) only begins to become measurable at Megahertz frequencies. At 60 hz it would be essentially ZERO. ...lew... |
#22
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Robert Swinney wrote:
Respectively beg to differ, Martin. The standard telephone wire was #9 copper. It was copper, not plated with anything. There is quite a lot of it still around. Generally the telegraph lines were heavier and sometimes they were made of iron. I'm not sure why - extra storm protection maybe. Robert, One thing I'm absolutely certain of is when they finally ran the phone line up the two mile road to the little comunity of Marrysville in PA, where we lived at the time, in the 1940s (late, after the war) they used steel wire plated with copper. I collected some of the scraps hoping to use it. :-( ...lew... |
#23
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Jon Elson wrote:
Wire wrap wire IS plated with pure Ag, and it definitely tarnishes on the outside of wire-wrap joints over time. That doesn't seem to keep them from still working, though. Jon That is because the actual joint is "gas tight" and hence wont corrode. ...lew... (who has made a lot of wirewrap connections) |
#24
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message ... snip------- Jeff (Who remembers visiting that big open pit copper mine in Coppertown, Utah circa 1955.) Well, Jeff (Who remembers visiting that big open pit copper mine in Coppertown, Utah circa 1955.), I've been gone from Utah for ten years now, but if you were to return to the same mine, you wouldn't recognize it. For one, do you recall driving through a long tunnel, from Bingham Canyon to Copperfield, the town on the other side of the tunnel? That's where the observation point was when you go back far enough in time, for which '55 should qualify. I do remember that tunnel, and also a "town", if you could call it that, stretched out along a mile or more of road which had houses and shops on both sides of it. But, what I can't forget was stopping along that road to grab a Coke with whatever college buddy I was driving across the country with, and being immediately surrounded by very young native american kids begging for handouts. Being about 19 at the time, and I suppose having led what you'd consider a sheltered existance around the cities of San Francisco and Boston, I'd never experienced child beggars before or after that, here in the USA, though I've sure seen plenty of them elsewhere in the world since then. I'm always saddened by it, wherever it happens, though I understand that it's just local industry in some places. Not only is the tunnel no longer there, neither is the mountain. It has all been mined and is now a much larger hole in the ground. It was that way when I left Utah. I can't imagine what it must look like now. Yes, that mountain reminded me of a volcano, with a spiral road with RR tracks running around the inside. From the observation point we could see the dust puffs from blasting going on here and there on the inside walls, I remember it seemed like there was one of those explosions every few minutes. Bingham Canyon was one of the places that was a complete throwback in time. Not much changed there, it just slowly died off and was destroyed by the mine. Narrow street, just barely wide enough for one car to pass another, I have fond memories of the place. The town you mentioned, Copperton (not Coppertown), is actually a couple miles outside of the mining district, and was, for the most part, the company town. It still exists as far as I know. Everything else is long gone. But not forgotten by me... During that same trip through Utah a large wooden water pipeline ran alongside a road we were on, and I couldn't resist having my traveling companion take this silly photo of me at a spot where some AH must have taken a potshot at the pipe. http://home.comcast.net/~jwisnia18/temp/leaker.html Thanks for the mammaries... Jeff -- Jeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented." |
#25
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
spaco wrote: I was just looking up expansion rates of metal for another post. The next column in the Machinery's Handbook lists electrical conductivity ratings. I have worked with electricity in one way or another, most of my life, but I never realized how poorly some metals that are commonly associated with electrical connections are! With Silver as Conductivity = 100, Copper = 97.61 Yup. Lead = 8.42 !!! No wonder car batteries get hot!!! Tin =14.39 !!! Lead and tin are the main constituents of most soft solders. If you ever needed a case for making a good mechanical joint before soldering, there it is! Oh-- page 2193 of the 19th edition. Pete Stanaitis It's all relative, though, Pete. Iron (or steel) at room temperature is about 12. Yet you don't think of that as being a poor conductor. Or the mercury used in a mercury switch, which is under 2. They are actually pretty decent conductors, with silver being an incredible one. Unless you compare it, of course, to a superconductor down around absolute zero.... John Martin |
#26
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Lew sez:
Robert, One thing I'm absolutely certain of is when they finally ran the phone line up the two mile road to the little comunity of Marrysville in PA, where we lived at the time, in the 1940s (late, after the war) they used steel wire plated with copper. I collected some of the scraps hoping to use it. True. But I was describing long haul transmission lines on cross arms of wood poles. The only ones I was familiar with from AT&T and RR experience were #9 hard drawn copper. I think that was used most all over the U.S. for open wire. I think you are referring to what was generally called "parallel". Parallel consisted of 2 copper plated steel conductors of 17 - 18 AWG, laying side-by-side (not twisted) thus the name parallel; covered with a heavy rubber insulation. Parallel was flat and typically held in reuseable "P" clamps, although it could be "served up", or wrapped with soft copper to form a hook for hanging as well. P clamps were easy and fast to hang on poles in "J" hooks as I remember. Parallel was typically used only for short haul stuff such as house drops. Being flat, it lacked the cross-talk rejection characteristics of transposed open wire, or twisted pair. Bob Swinney "Lew Hartswick" wrote in message k.net... Robert Swinney wrote: Respectively beg to differ, Martin. The standard telephone wire was #9 copper. It was copper, not plated with anything. There is quite a lot of it still around. Generally the telegraph lines were heavier and sometimes they were made of iron. I'm not sure why - extra storm protection maybe. ...lew... |
#27
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 22:32:28 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote: "Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message ... snip------- Jeff (Who remembers visiting that big open pit copper mine in Coppertown, Utah circa 1955.) Well, Jeff (Who remembers visiting that big open pit copper mine in Coppertown, Utah circa 1955.), I've been gone from Utah for ten years now, but if you were to return to the same mine, you wouldn't recognize it. For one, do you recall driving through a long tunnel, from Bingham Canyon to Copperfield, the town on the other side of the tunnel? That's where the observation point was when you go back far enough in time, for which '55 should qualify. Not only is the tunnel no longer there, neither is the mountain. It has all been mined and is now a much larger hole in the ground. It was that way when I left Utah. I can't imagine what it must look like now. Bingham Canyon was one of the places that was a complete throwback in time. Not much changed there, it just slowly died off and was destroyed by the mine. Narrow street, just barely wide enough for one car to pass another, I have fond memories of the place. The town you mentioned, Copperton (not Coppertown), is actually a couple miles outside of the mining district, and was, for the most part, the company town. It still exists as far as I know. Everything else is long gone. Harold Mufilira, Luansha, Kitwe, Ndola and the surrounding areas of the CXopperbelt in Zambia had/have many large open pit copper mines as well. Spent a few years over there in the seventies. |
#28
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 20:40:09 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote: Very interesting! Which then suggests brazing electrical connections? You omitted alum, nickel, gold. Old wiring, at least in parts of NY, were soldered AND wire nutted!! I think soldering of splices in house wiring is a very good, safe idea. Just not all that convenient. Now here's sumpn fer you electricians: I have old cloth-covered #9-10 solid wire in my old cloth-covered house, and sed wire is, I believe, *silver plated*!!!! Well, plated w/ sumpn, brite and shiny. If it *is* silver, it is a marvelous idea, because sposedly the bulk of the current density in a conducting wire lies on the surface of the wire. If it's tin plated, the question is then *why*! Nickel?? Might make sense then, to silver, or even copper plate aluminum wire. Like our pennies. Skin effect is almost totally irrelevent at 60 htz, and most of that old knob and tube wiring was bright tin plated. Copper plated aluminum would be a corrosion nightmare. |
#29
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 12:11:03 -0600, "Robert Swinney"
wrote: I think you are referring to what was generally called "parallel". Parallel consisted of 2 copper plated steel conductors of 17 - 18 AWG, laying side-by-side (not twisted) thus the name parallel; covered with a heavy rubber insulation. Parallel was flat and typically held in reuseable "P" clamps, although it could be "served up", or wrapped with soft copper to form a hook for hanging as well. P clamps were easy and fast to hang on poles in "J" hooks as I remember. Parallel was typically used only for short haul stuff such as house drops. Being flat, it lacked the cross-talk rejection characteristics of transposed open wire, or twisted pair. You just described "C Rural" wire - they still make and use it today for long runs of one phone line. The big advantage being it will go 300 to 600 foot spans between poles depending on the ice and wind loading factors, just like the power line on the top of the pole. http://www.superioressex.com/product...rural-wire.pdf If they try using regular residential drop wire (1 or 2 pair) it can't handle that long of a span without inter-setting additional poles, and for one house it doesn't pay to hang a steel strand and lash a normal 25-pair Alpeth cable to it. -- Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545 Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. |
#30
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says...
The drops used for houses were, indeed, copper covered steel wire. Black rubber-like insulation with a pair of wires within-----sort of an overgrown version of 300 ohm TV cable----that had no value when taken to the salvage yard. Any of us old scroungers know that. This is called "CopperWeld" wire. Basically drawn by inserting a billet of steel inside a billet of copper. Then the billet is drawn down into wire. At the end the copper is still on the outside, and the steel is still on the inside! Very strong stuff, which is why it's used (self supporting) for subscriber's drops. The same kind of cored wire is made using copper on the outside, and niobium on the inside, for superconducting magnets. In this case though they put ten or fifteen niobium slugs inside the copper billet before drawing it down. When one is done there's a three mill diameter copper wire, with a dozen or so niobium fillaments visible in the cross section. Etch away the copper with nitric acid, and you get a microscopic niobium brush! Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
#31
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
In article , Robert Swinney
says... True. But I was describing long haul transmission lines on cross arms of wood poles. The only ones I was familiar with from AT&T and RR experience were #9 hard drawn copper. I think that was used most all over the U.S. for open wire. That stuff makes great ham radio antennas. Err, so I've *heard*. I think you are referring to what was generally called "parallel". That's copperweld wire, not plated. It's drawn down from billet with the same steel/copper cross section to start. Jim -- ================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ================================================== |
#32
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Robert Swinney wrote:
Lew sez: Robert, One thing I'm absolutely certain of is when they finally ran the phone line up the two mile road to the little comunity of Marrysville in PA, where we lived at the time, in the 1940s (late, after the war) they used steel wire plated with copper. I collected some of the scraps hoping to use it. True. But I was describing long haul transmission lines on cross arms of wood poles. The only ones I was familiar with from AT&T and RR experience were #9 hard drawn copper. I think that was used most all over the U.S. for open wire. I think you are referring to what was generally called "parallel". Parallel consisted of 2 copper plated steel conductors of 17 - 18 AWG, laying side-by-side (not twisted) thus the name parallel; covered with a heavy rubber insulation. Parallel was flat and typically held in reuseable "P" clamps, although it could be "served up", or wrapped with soft copper to form a hook for hanging as well. P clamps were easy and fast to hang on poles in "J" hooks as I remember. Parallel was typically used only for short haul stuff such as house drops. Being flat, it lacked the cross-talk rejection characteristics of transposed open wire, or twisted pair. Bob Swinney No this was a two mile run of open wire with one on each side of the pole. To about 4 or 5 people party line. Some other rememberances: A budy and I had a short pair of climbers (only up to the ankles OUCH) and a pair of earphones which we taped into the line ocaisonally. :-) ...lew... |
#33
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Bob - read my note- I said old failing abandoned - telegraph/telephone.
This was in the High desert and mountains north. I well know the TDR and Smith stuff - Long Lines used to send me stuff when I was a kid. I was in El Paso and my dad was ATT/WESTERN - Long Lines adopted my class and myself on the side I guess. The lines ran from El Paso to New Mexico. High winds required concrete weights to hand on the wires to keep them from sailing in the wind - pulling out the poles. Some lines had 2 large fruit can size weights. So strength was needed. It was cut by scoring and snapping. The wire required about a 3' minimum diameter. I suspect they were 100 years old at the time - maybe 75. Likely used between forts and during the war. The one with Black Jack in charge vs. Mexico bandits..... Martin Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH & Endowment Member NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder Robert Swinney wrote: Respectively beg to differ, Martin. The standard telephone wire was #9 copper. It was copper, not plated with anything. There is quite a lot of it still around. Generally the telegraph lines were heavier and sometimes they were made of iron. I'm not sure why - extra storm protection maybe. The old wire chiefs had fault location down to a science. One of the first jobs I had was working on the AT&T Long Lines test board. There were several tests used. Wheatstone and Varley were a couple I recall. I had the privilege of working under a retirement aged test boardman. He taught me a lot. That was my first encounter with a Wheatstone bridge. The bridge was part of the test board, where the test guys could patch into the various circuits - and isolate them from traffic. Elaborate resistance records were kept on each circuit (pair of #9 line wires). Those records were continually updated. They made it possible for a wire chief on the test board to locate the distance out to a line fault. This was all done away with when the TDR (Time Domain Reflectometer) was perfected. Crossbars, unless you are referring to the common crossbar switch in central offices, were out on the poles and known as *cross arms*. Little known trivia: Coast - to - coast telephone circuits existed before electronic amplification. This were done using lumped inductance loaded, heavy wire pairs, generally the lower capacitive, "pole pair". Expensive enough it made most folks send telegrams. Bob Swinney "Martin H. Eastburn" wrote in message ... Copper corrodes. It turns pretty green and blue. It eats up the wire. If it is plated with something - it won't. If you remember the old telephone lines - those with lots stretched across crossbars.... Those are copper covered Steel. Thick - but it is known once the copper is breached - as the steel changes the resistance. Methods were developed to calculate the distance of the open, break or change in impedance. We got some of this when the lines were falling down - abandoned lines. They were on Air force property and old telegraph/telephone lines. We used it in a massive grape arbor - strong steel copper clad wire. Learned to coil wire with two hands that day. Martin Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH & Endowment Member NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder Proctologically Violated©® wrote: Very interesting! Which then suggests brazing electrical connections? You omitted alum, nickel, gold. Old wiring, at least in parts of NY, were soldered AND wire nutted!! I think soldering of splices in house wiring is a very good, safe idea. Just not all that convenient. Now here's sumpn fer you electricians: I have old cloth-covered #9-10 solid wire in my old cloth-covered house, and sed wire is, I believe, *silver plated*!!!! Well, plated w/ sumpn, brite and shiny. If it *is* silver, it is a marvelous idea, because sposedly the bulk of the current density in a conducting wire lies on the surface of the wire. If it's tin plated, the question is then *why*! Nickel?? Might make sense then, to silver, or even copper plate aluminum wire. Like our pennies. -- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll "spaco" wrote in message t... I was just looking up expansion rates of metal for another post. The next column in the Machinery's Handbook lists electrical conductivity ratings. I have worked with electricity in one way or another, most of my life, but I never realized how poorly some metals that are commonly associated with electrical connections are! With Silver as Conductivity = 100, Copper = 97.61 Yup. Lead = 8.42 !!! No wonder car batteries get hot!!! Tin =14.39 !!! Lead and tin are the main constituents of most soft solders. If you ever needed a case for making a good mechanical joint before soldering, there it is! Oh-- page 2193 of the 19th edition. Pete Stanaitis ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#34
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Blame it on Edison. I bet it was for DC.
Martin Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH & Endowment Member NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder Lew Hartswick wrote: Proctologically Violated©® wrote: If it *is* silver, it is a marvelous idea, because sposedly the bulk of the current density in a conducting wire lies on the surface of the wire. If it's tin plated, the question is then *why*! Nickel?? Skin effect (current flowing on the surface of a conductor) only begins to become measurable at Megahertz frequencies. At 60 hz it would be essentially ZERO. ...lew... ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
#35
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
"jim rozen" wrote in message ... In article , Harold and Susan Vordos says... The drops used for houses were, indeed, copper covered steel wire. Black rubber-like insulation with a pair of wires within-----sort of an overgrown version of 300 ohm TV cable----that had no value when taken to the salvage yard. Any of us old scroungers know that. This is called "CopperWeld" wire. Basically drawn by inserting a billet of steel inside a billet of copper. Then the billet is drawn down into wire. At the end the copper is still on the outside, and the steel is still on the inside! Very strong stuff, which is why it's used (self supporting) for subscriber's drops. The same kind of cored wire is made using copper on the outside, and niobium on the inside, for superconducting magnets. In this case though they put ten or fifteen niobium slugs inside the copper billet before drawing it down. When one is done there's a three mill diameter copper wire, with a dozen or so niobium fillaments visible in the cross section. Etch away the copper with nitric acid, and you get a microscopic niobium brush! Jim Cool! I always wondered how they made that damned telephone wire. New why---it was obvious---for strength. Harold |
#36
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
During that same trip through Utah a large wooden water pipeline ran alongside a road we were on, and I couldn't resist having my traveling companion take this silly photo of me at a spot where some AH must have taken a potshot at the pipe. What a handsome guy! I bet you drove the chicks crazy! |
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 22:32:28 -0800, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote: Not only is the tunnel no longer there, neither is the mountain. It has all been mined and is now a much larger hole in the ground. It was that way when I left Utah. I can't imagine what it must look like now. it's an interesting view in google earth. |
#38
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
With Silver as Conductivity = 100,
Copper = 97.61 Yup. Lead = 8.42 !!! No wonder car batteries get hot!!! Tin =14.39 !!! Lead and tin are the main constituents of most soft solders. Ah, but the resistance across anything is: length/(area*conductivity) The cross sectional area of a solder joint between two copper wires laid side by side is huge compared to the cross section of any given point in the wire and the length is very short. Even with lead, the joint would conduct better than the rest of the wire... That's also why the lead car battery terminals someone else mentioned are not a problem (large cross-section). If your battery terminals are getting hot, it's because the contact surface between the post and the terminal is corroded or loose. |
#39
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message ... Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: "Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message ... snip-- but if you were to return to the same mine, you wouldn't recognize it. For one, do you recall driving through a long tunnel, from Bingham Canyon to Copperfield, the town on the other side of the tunnel? That's where the observation point was when you go back far enough in time, for which '55 should qualify. I do remember that tunnel, and also a "town", if you could call it that, stretched out along a mile or more of road which had houses and shops on both sides of it. The town in question was Bingham. But, what I can't forget was stopping along that road to grab a Coke with whatever college buddy I was driving across the country with, and being immediately surrounded by very young native american kids begging for handouts. Being about 19 at the time, and I suppose having led what you'd consider a sheltered existance around the cities of San Francisco and Boston, I'd never experienced child beggars before or after that, here in the USA, though I've sure seen plenty of them elsewhere in the world since then. I'm always saddened by it, wherever it happens, though I understand that it's just local industry in some places. That surprises me. I don't recall any large number of them in Bingham, and I spent considerable time there until the vast majority of the people moved out, many to West Jordan and Midvale, where I was born and raised. What you described could have easily been in another place----did you drive through any of the Indian reservations in Southern Utah? Bingham was a real melting pot------very unlike much of Utah. Because of the mine, where men could find work easily, ethnics could live and work without having a knowledge of English, so many of the people were foreigners. My grandparents and my father lived in Bingham early on, having immigrated from Greece. People, for the most part, got along beautifully, and were not much influenced by the Mormon Church, very unlike the majority of Utah. Only in one other city or town was it like that, and that was in Carbon County, Price, specifically. Another mining town, but this one coal mining. There were two drugstores in Bingham, owned by two brothers named Evans, as I recall. A very close family friend, who used to live in Bingham, worked for them. The one store was under the apartment complex owned by the family friend's father. The Royal Apartments, a 5 story building. There was almost no room in the narrow canyon, so everything was built up, thus the very narrow road. Not only is the tunnel no longer there, neither is the mountain. It has all been mined and is now a much larger hole in the ground. It was that way when I left Utah. I can't imagine what it must look like now. Yes, that mountain reminded me of a volcano, with a spiral road with RR tracks running around the inside. From the observation point we could see the dust puffs from blasting going on here and there on the inside walls, I remember it seemed like there was one of those explosions every few minutes. That, too, is totally different now. There are no trains, not even to deliver the ore to the smelter, which is several miles away, on the southern tip of the Great Salt Lake. Huge trucks now haul the overburden and ore, which is crushed and placed on a huge conveyer, transporting it around the mountain to the smelter. Hope I have it right. My memory is growing dim. The operation was (is?) known as Kennecott Copper. In recent years, it was sold on more than one occasion. While we were still living in Utah, the entire operation was shut down for what they called modernization. True enough, they did modernize, but their objective was to bust the union, which was way too powerful. People I knew held a job there, and held full time employment elsewhere as well. It was an often heard line that they'd go to work at Kennecott to get their night's sleep. Needless to say, the mine ran 7/24/365. When the mine closed down, they had a work force of something over 8,000 employees. When it was restarted, about 2,500 were called back, with a greater output than before. Not only was it more efficient, those that were called back were actually expected to work. During that same trip through Utah a large wooden water pipeline ran alongside a road we were on, and I couldn't resist having my traveling companion take this silly photo of me at a spot where some AH must have taken a potshot at the pipe. http://home.comcast.net/~jwisnia18/temp/leaker.html Thanks for the mammaries... Jeff That must have been along US 40, which was the main route east/west through northern Utah. You'll notice there are no mountains in the picture, and the Great Salt Lake appears to be in the background, so it must be the pipeline that carried water to the smelter in question. Do you recall seeing a huge (black) slag pile on the south side of the road? Harold |
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Surprises about electrical conductivity
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:
"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message But, what I can't forget was stopping along that road to grab a Coke with whatever college buddy I was driving across the country with, and being immediately surrounded by very young native american kids begging for handouts. snipped That surprises me. I don't recall any large number of them in Bingham, and I spent considerable time there until the vast majority of the people moved out, many to West Jordan and Midvale, where I was born and raised. What you described could have easily been in another place----did you drive through any of the Indian reservations in Southern Utah? That ould well have been, Harold. 50 or so years is stretching my memory a bit and I must have made about 8 of those Boston to San Francisco and back automobile commutes during my college years. The image of the kids begging is solid, but the location could have been off. Jeff -- Jeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented." |
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