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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.machines.cnc
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Running hydraulic pumps backwards?
Awl--
Ahm about to hook up a very bad-assed Kalamazoo automatic horz'l cutoff saw. Ahm doin my best not to burn it up/down (which would make *three* in a goddamm row...), but I don't have a way of predetermining rotation on the pump. The saw motor used to be a "reference", but numbers came off the wiring, and that reference is lost. IOW, even if the saw motor spins right, the pump could still spin wrong. How bad is that to do, momentarily? Can I get away with it, ie verify pump direction w/ the pressure gauge? As a pita alternative, I could disconnect the lovejoy coupling, and look at just the motor spinning, IF I knew what direction the pump head should turn. I looked for the arrow on the head, but did not see it. I know the high and low side of the pump head--is there a std rotation direction between the two? Iny idears?? I'm tryna get this thing going *tonite*, as I got some peeps comin over tomorrow, who I would like to see turn green w/ envy.... -- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.machines.cnc
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Running hydraulic pumps backwards?
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote:
Awl-- Ahm about to hook up a very bad-assed Kalamazoo automatic horz'l cutoff saw. Ahm doin my best not to burn it up/down (which would make *three* in a goddamm row...), but I don't have a way of predetermining rotation on the pump. The saw motor used to be a "reference", but numbers came off the wiring, and that reference is lost. IOW, even if the saw motor spins right, the pump could still spin wrong. How bad is that to do, momentarily? Can I get away with it, ie verify pump direction w/ the pressure gauge? As a pita alternative, I could disconnect the lovejoy coupling, and look at just the motor spinning, IF I knew what direction the pump head should turn. I looked for the arrow on the head, but did not see it. I know the high and low side of the pump head--is there a std rotation direction between the two? Iny idears?? I'm tryna get this thing going *tonite*, as I got some peeps comin over tomorrow, who I would like to see turn green w/ envy.... -- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll Have you tried to find the pump info online? As long as the pump is filled with hydraulic fluid there should be no problem with it running briefly in reverse. To be extra safe you might try disconnecting the coupling and turning the pump by hand to determine the correct rotation. If turning by hand is too slow, then perhaps with a cordless drill, the slower it spins the more likely the fluid already in the pump will provide adequate lubrication to prevent any harm. A quick review of one pump manufacturer indicated that many (not all though) of the gear pumps are designed for bi-directional operation. Pete C. |
#3
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.machines.cnc
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Running hydraulic pumps backwards?
clip) Iny idears?? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ If it is a gear pump it's easy. The gears carry fluid around the outside, and it gets squeezed as the teeth mesh. So the flow is in the direction that the outside of the gears move. Iny mo questions? |
#4
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.machines.cnc
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Running hydraulic pumps backwards?
Well if you can reach the Lovejoy coupling, try moving it some by hand
while you put your finger over one of the supply or discharge ports. Usually they seal well enough you can feel some pressure or suction at the port. Once you know which way it has to turn, reconnect the lines and bump it over with a quick on off while someone holds a piece of paper or cardboard against the coupling to see which way it's turning. Assuming this is a three phase motor, and if the pump design prohibits any reverse motion at all, (not likely), borrow or buy a motor phase checker. Grainger used to sell them, maybe they still do. It connects to the motor leads allows rotation pre checking without actually running the motor. Proctologically Violated©® wrote: Awl-- Ahm about to hook up a very bad-assed Kalamazoo automatic horz'l cutoff saw. Ahm doin my best not to burn it up/down (which would make *three* in a goddamm row...), but I don't have a way of predetermining rotation on the pump. The saw motor used to be a "reference", but numbers came off the wiring, and that reference is lost. IOW, even if the saw motor spins right, the pump could still spin wrong. How bad is that to do, momentarily? Can I get away with it, ie verify pump direction w/ the pressure gauge? As a pita alternative, I could disconnect the lovejoy coupling, and look at just the motor spinning, IF I knew what direction the pump head should turn. I looked for the arrow on the head, but did not see it. I know the high and low side of the pump head--is there a std rotation direction between the two? Iny idears?? I'm tryna get this thing going *tonite*, as I got some peeps comin over tomorrow, who I would like to see turn green w/ envy.... -- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll |
#5
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.machines.cnc
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Running hydraulic pumps backwards?
In article ,
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote: How bad is that to do, momentarily? Can I get away with it, ie verify pump direction w/ the pressure gauge? Hydraulic pumps have a case drain that will dump leaked oil back to the intake side. If you run the pump backwards and pressure up the side connected to the case drain you can blow out seals or even hydraulically push a shaft sideways in the housing, causing a lot of damage. While you're trying to figure out which way to go, keep the flow unrestricted. -- B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net |
#6
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.machines.cnc
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Running hydraulic pumps backwards?
The intake is larger than the output.
"Pete C." wrote in message ... "Proctologically Violated©®" wrote: Awl-- Ahm about to hook up a very bad-assed Kalamazoo automatic horz'l cutoff saw. Ahm doin my best not to burn it up/down (which would make *three* in a goddamm row...), but I don't have a way of predetermining rotation on the pump. The saw motor used to be a "reference", but numbers came off the wiring, and that reference is lost. IOW, even if the saw motor spins right, the pump could still spin wrong. How bad is that to do, momentarily? Can I get away with it, ie verify pump direction w/ the pressure gauge? As a pita alternative, I could disconnect the lovejoy coupling, and look at just the motor spinning, IF I knew what direction the pump head should turn. I looked for the arrow on the head, but did not see it. I know the high and low side of the pump head--is there a std rotation direction between the two? Iny idears?? I'm tryna get this thing going *tonite*, as I got some peeps comin over tomorrow, who I would like to see turn green w/ envy.... -- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll Have you tried to find the pump info online? As long as the pump is filled with hydraulic fluid there should be no problem with it running briefly in reverse. To be extra safe you might try disconnecting the coupling and turning the pump by hand to determine the correct rotation. If turning by hand is too slow, then perhaps with a cordless drill, the slower it spins the more likely the fluid already in the pump will provide adequate lubrication to prevent any harm. A quick review of one pump manufacturer indicated that many (not all though) of the gear pumps are designed for bi-directional operation. Pete C. |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.machines.cnc
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Running hydraulic pumps backwards?
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 04:20:15 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
wrote: If it is a gear pump it's easy. The gears carry fluid around the outside, and it gets squeezed as the teeth mesh. So the flow is in the direction that the outside of the gears move. Iny mo questions? LOL .. -- Cliff |
#8
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.machines.cnc
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Running hydraulic pumps backwards?
"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message ... clip) Iny idears?? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ If it is a gear pump it's easy. The gears carry fluid around the outside, and it gets squeezed as the teeth mesh. So the flow is in the direction that the outside of the gears move. Iny mo questions? Let go a little farther with this. The fluid flow in a pump ALWAYS takes the longest path through the pump from entrance to exit. Hence the oil in a gear pump travels around the outside of the gears, Someone please give me an example of a pump where this is not true. Gary H. Lucas |
#9
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.machines.cnc
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Running hydraulic pumps backwards?
I'll bet there IS an arrow, took me an hour to find one once. You won't
hurt it with a quick test but don't run it bakwards for long, that would...suck! "Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message ... Awl-- Ahm about to hook up a very bad-assed Kalamazoo automatic horz'l cutoff saw. Ahm doin my best not to burn it up/down (which would make *three* in a goddamm row...), but I don't have a way of predetermining rotation on the pump. The saw motor used to be a "reference", but numbers came off the wiring, and that reference is lost. IOW, even if the saw motor spins right, the pump could still spin wrong. How bad is that to do, momentarily? Can I get away with it, ie verify pump direction w/ the pressure gauge? As a pita alternative, I could disconnect the lovejoy coupling, and look at just the motor spinning, IF I knew what direction the pump head should turn. I looked for the arrow on the head, but did not see it. I know the high and low side of the pump head--is there a std rotation direction between the two? Iny idears?? I'm tryna get this thing going *tonite*, as I got some peeps comin over tomorrow, who I would like to see turn green w/ envy.... -- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.machines.cnc
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Running hydraulic pumps backwards?
Funny you mentioned this.
I did go back, figgering indeed there's *gotta* be an arrow some place. Well, I found what were proly the most cryptic arrows in all of Pump-dom--goddamm.... All seems well. All the advice is appreciated, and I inadvertently followed one, causing quite a mess: Running the pump w/ the hoses disconnected--goodgawd... But, if you know which hoses are the supply, and which are the return (obvious in most cases), effluent oil from one or the other should indicate desired rotation--under low pressure, as the poster mentioned. -- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll "Tom Gardner" wrote in message om... I'll bet there IS an arrow, took me an hour to find one once. You won't hurt it with a quick test but don't run it bakwards for long, that would...suck! "Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in message ... Awl-- Ahm about to hook up a very bad-assed Kalamazoo automatic horz'l cutoff saw. Ahm doin my best not to burn it up/down (which would make *three* in a goddamm row...), but I don't have a way of predetermining rotation on the pump. The saw motor used to be a "reference", but numbers came off the wiring, and that reference is lost. IOW, even if the saw motor spins right, the pump could still spin wrong. How bad is that to do, momentarily? Can I get away with it, ie verify pump direction w/ the pressure gauge? As a pita alternative, I could disconnect the lovejoy coupling, and look at just the motor spinning, IF I knew what direction the pump head should turn. I looked for the arrow on the head, but did not see it. I know the high and low side of the pump head--is there a std rotation direction between the two? Iny idears?? I'm tryna get this thing going *tonite*, as I got some peeps comin over tomorrow, who I would like to see turn green w/ envy.... -- Mr. P.V.'d formerly Droll Troll |
#11
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.machines.cnc
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Running hydraulic pumps backwards?
In article QpfCf.5705$Jn1.1385@trndny01,
"Gary H. Lucas" wrote: "Leo Lichtman" wrote in message ... clip) Iny idears?? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ If it is a gear pump it's easy. The gears carry fluid around the outside, and it gets squeezed as the teeth mesh. So the flow is in the direction that the outside of the gears move. Iny mo questions? Let go a little farther with this. The fluid flow in a pump ALWAYS takes the longest path through the pump from entrance to exit. Hence the oil in a gear pump travels around the outside of the gears, Someone please give me an example of a pump where this is not true. Gary H. Lucas Balanced rotary vane pump. Oil at one of the inlets only has to travel less than 90 degrees around the pump before it reaches an outlet. But I've never seen one of those that wasn't marked really well with lots and lots of redundancy. -- B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net |
#12
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.machines.cnc
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Running hydraulic pumps backwards?
"B.B." wrote: (clip) marked really well with lots and lots of redundancy. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That is really, really, really redundant, as well as being repetative. |
#13
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.machines.cnc
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Running hydraulic pumps backwards?
Hence the oil in a
gear pump travels around the outside of the gears, Someone please give me an example of a pump where this is not true. How about an internal gear pump? Chrysler oil pump fer example. The oil goes aronud the Inside of the gear. Pete |
#14
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.machines.cnc
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Running hydraulic pumps backwards?
"Half-nutz" wrote in message oups.com... Hence the oil in a gear pump travels around the outside of the gears, Someone please give me an example of a pump where this is not true. How about an internal gear pump? Chrysler oil pump fer example. The oil goes aronud the Inside of the gear. Pete Pete, I said it takes the longest path. Take a look at the path of fluid flow in the pump you are talking about. I think you'll find it is the longest path. Gary H. Lucas |
#15
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Running hydraulic pumps backwards?
I fully understand it is the longest path.
I specifically quoted the part where you stated the oil goes around the -outside- of the gear. You specifically asked for an example where the oild does not go around the outside of the gear. I fully believed you were challenging someone to find an example where they could not visually determine the pump operation from the outside of the casting, because you supplied the 'obvious' information that the oil will always go around the outside of the gears. My example shows where it is harder to look at the outside of a casting, and know where the oil passages are located, which is the point this thread was exploring. Pete |
#16
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Running hydraulic pumps backwards?
On 28 Jan 2006 10:01:31 -0800, "Half-nutz" wrote:
Hence the oil in a gear pump travels around the outside of the gears, Someone please give me an example of a pump where this is not true. How about an internal gear pump? Chrysler oil pump fer example. The oil goes aronud the Inside of the gear. What happens on the "outside" of the gear(s)? Have a picture? -- Cliff |
#17
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Running hydraulic pumps backwards?
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#18
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking,alt.machines.cnc
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Running hydraulic pumps backwards?
wrote in message oups.com... I fully understand it is the longest path. I specifically quoted the part where you stated the oil goes around the -outside- of the gear. You specifically asked for an example where the oild does not go around the outside of the gear. I fully believed you were challenging someone to find an example where they could not visually determine the pump operation from the outside of the casting, because you supplied the 'obvious' information that the oil will always go around the outside of the gears. My example shows where it is harder to look at the outside of a casting, and know where the oil passages are located, which is the point this thread was exploring. Pete Pete, I read what I wrote again. I read it as asking if anyone knew of a pump where the fluid doesn't take the longest path. It wasn't a challenge, it was a question. I've been using this approach to tell the correct rotation of pumps for a long time. I'd like to know if there are pumps where this is not true, so it doesn't bite me in the ass some day. Gary H. Lucas |
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