Howdy,

I've been thinking about buying a micro lathe for some projects, but
it is a fairly large buy for something that I don't need all that
often. I'd like to find a hobby shop or somewhere that I can go learn
to use these micor lathes and mills so I can get a feel for how often
I'd use it, and what I really need.

Obviously accessability will depend on location, but I'm wondering if
this is something that is common, and what kinds of places I'd want to
look for to get access to this kind of equipment.

And on the off chance that someone might know about my area, I'm near
Omaha, Nebraska, so if you happen to know a place nearby lemme know.

Thanks!
DK

In article , David Knaack
says...

Howdy,

I've been thinking about buying a micro lathe for some projects, but
it is a fairly large buy for something that I don't need all that
often. I'd like to find a hobby shop or somewhere that I can go learn
to use these micor lathes and mills so I can get a feel for how often
I'd use it, and what I really need.

Probably your best bet is to investigate local voc-tech
schools in your area. I was able to find a program for
adult education where I could take a machine shop class
during the evenings, very inexpensively.

Another plus with this is it allows you to meet other
folks who share your hobby, and you can compare notes
etc.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 15 Jan 2004 13:14:54 -0800, (David Knaack) wrote:

Howdy,

I've been thinking about buying a micro lathe for some projects, but
it is a fairly large buy for something that I don't need all that
often. I'd like to find a hobby shop or somewhere that I can go learn
to use these micor lathes and mills so I can get a feel for how often
I'd use it, and what I really need.

Obviously accessability will depend on location, but I'm wondering if
this is something that is common, and what kinds of places I'd want to
look for to get access to this kind of equipment.

And on the off chance that someone might know about my area, I'm near
Omaha, Nebraska, so if you happen to know a place nearby lemme know.

Thanks!
DK

The big question is what sort of project are you planning on doing..and
what is your definition of a micro mill.

Shrug..for me..a micro mill is any mill that swings less t han 6" and
weighs under 250 lbs.

Gunner



"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

(David Knaack) wrote in message . com...
Howdy,

I've been thinking about buying a micro lathe for some projects, but
it is a fairly large buy for something that I don't need all that
often. I'd like to find a hobby shop or somewhere that I can go learn
to use these micor lathes and mills so I can get a feel for how often
I'd use it, and what I really need.

Obviously accessability will depend on location, but I'm wondering if
this is something that is common, and what kinds of places I'd want to
look for to get access to this kind of equipment.

And on the off chance that someone might know about my area, I'm near
Omaha, Nebraska, so if you happen to know a place nearby lemme know.

Thanks!
DK


In addition to the voc-tech school class route, you might see what's
available in the area for vintage/antique engine enthusiasts and maybe
live steam railroad guys. If you have a lathe available, it's more
apt to be used for a lot more than you think right now. The larger,
the better. About the largest one that can still be shuffled around
and put on a shelf is the one of the 7x imports and they can be had
fairly cheaply. Some need more attention than others out of the box,
that's one reason they're cheap. HF is one importer, Homier is
another. There's sites and mailing lists on the 7x lathes, Yahoo
hosts one of the lists. Besides schools, nobody I know has
do-it-yourself machine time available on a per-hour basis with or
without tutoring.

If you've got the room, think about getting something larger than the
Sherline/Unimat/Taig-class lathes, you can always do small stuff on a
large lathe, but it's really hard doing large stuff on a small one.

Stan

I have a similar question and was browsing newsgroups looking for
somewhere to post it:

I have various RC aircraft and other hobbies for which I need custom
metal parts built from various commonly-used metals and milled/lathed.
I dont understand much about these industrial equipment except that
(1) I cant afford them (2) I will require higher-precision milling
machines for the purpose.

Has anyone used 'outside resources' for hobby purposes at a low cost?
I work at a manufacturing company in Toronto, and I know how much such
resources can cost, plus they have a minimum amount they can take else
the cost skyrockets. I could probably fool some of those companies
(not through my company) that I'll send them much more business after
the first round of free 'samples' but I wont choose that path.

Anyone with experiences and suggestions? I specifically have small
engine parts, small rocketry parts and possibly parts for small
helicopters in mind...

I have various RC aircraft and other hobbies for which I need custom
metal parts built from various commonly-used metals and milled/lathed.

Small casting runs in aluminum might be a viable alternative. I've got
a buddy who's a professional blacksmith. We've been using his forge
and petrobond sand to cast aluminum and bronze. If the part is
relatively simple (in the 2D sense) and you can supply a pattern then
it becomes economical, especially if you've got a few parts to make
all in one pour, not necessarily multiple copies of the same piece.
I've even used broken parts as patterns to cast new replicas.

I've used it to make a replacement handle for a Devilbiss pressure
tank in 6061 Al plus a bunch of 1/4-20 thumbscrews in bronze. His
website is www.highlandforge.ca but he doesn't have much of anything
up on casting yet.

Usual sort of disclaimers - I have a part interest in the foundry
operation but it's all at the hobby level right now. For some things
it's a good idea, for others, probably not so smart.

Regards,

Matt Turner
Turner Racing Shells Ltd.
www.turnershells.com
Kingston, Ontario

In article , Ghazan Haider
says...

Anyone with experiences and suggestions? I specifically have small
engine parts, small rocketry parts and possibly parts for small
helicopters in mind...

I think that your situation is the exact reason why folks become
interested in hobby metalworking - their jobs are simply too
small, or too intricate, to be jobbed out to a local shop at
any decent cost.

So it becomes cheaper for the hobbyist to purchase the machines
to to do the job himself, and learn how it is done, on the fly.
(no pun intended...)

The other approach is to learn the skills at a local voc tech
school, in a formal fashion. This is nice because there is
often time devoted to individual projects after the material
is covered.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

jim rozen wrote:
In article , Ghazan Haider
says...


Anyone with experiences and suggestions? I specifically have small
engine parts, small rocketry parts and possibly parts for small
helicopters in mind...


I think that your situation is the exact reason why folks become
interested in hobby metalworking - their jobs are simply too
small, or too intricate, to be jobbed out to a local shop at
any decent cost.

So it becomes cheaper for the hobbyist to purchase the machines
to to do the job himself, and learn how it is done, on the fly.
(no pun intended...)

The other approach is to learn the skills at a local voc tech
school, in a formal fashion. This is nice because there is
often time devoted to individual projects after the material
is covered.

Speaking of vo-tech, I keep trying to check if my local tech school had
a machine tool program, but they seem to be gone. The website doesn't
even have a DNS entry. In fact, it's a state-wide system and NONE of
the sites respond, I think the domain is gone. Does anyone in NH know
what happened to the NH tech school system?

On 15 Jan 2004 13:14:54 -0800, (David Knaack) wrote:
I've been thinking about buying a micro lathe for some projects, but
it is a fairly large buy for something that I don't need all that
often. I'd like to find a hobby shop or somewhere that I can go learn
to use these micor lathes and mills so I can get a feel for how often
I'd use it, and what I really need.

I don't have any suggestions for where you might get some hands on
experience with these micro-lathes, except maybe to meet someone
who has one, probably at a hobby club meeting. However, I do have
a Taig lathe, and even though I have 3 other larger lathes in my shop
(up to a 7.5 hp 15x60), the little guy sees a good bit of use.

The micro-lathes are very good for very small parts. That's because
small diameters need to turn fast, and most larger lathes can't turn
as fast as these little guys. Figure about the largest thing you'd use
one for would be about 1 inch diameter and about 6 inches long
(you can fit bigger pieces on them, but you're asking a lot from the
little machine to turn them).

Mostly, you'd use them for parts a good deal smaller than that,
though I have done 2 inch aluminum wheels on mine. Aluminum
and brass would be the work materials of choice, though the Taig
is quite capable of turning small steel pieces as well.

Gary

Hey thats pretty interesting and I'll look into that. I had mechanical
parts in mind, upto even a simple combustion engine, and the gear and
clutch system of a small helicopter. I'm not gonna finish all my
projects but thats the scale of things I'm interested in covering.

So although aluminum is too soft for some of the jobs, it does make
for good structures especially in model airplanes.

On a side note, I'm wondering how much would the cheapest low-volume
high-precision lathing and milling machines cost. Given the largest
part is 10cm x 10cm but steel might be used...

In article ,
Ghazan Haider wrote:

On a side note, I'm wondering how much would the cheapest low-volume
high-precision lathing and milling machines cost.

First -- let's clarify the terminology.

1) Yes -- a milling machine does milling.

2) But -- a lathe does "turning". That is the understood term,
and "lathing" is not normally used, and can lead to confusion.

Given the largest
part is 10cm x 10cm but steel might be used...

Hmm ... another thing is that in machining, the common units of
measure (an capacities of the machines) are given either in inches (and
thousandths), or in mm, not cm. (It is a more reasonable size of unit
for precision work.

Now -- for both the mill and the lathe, the answer to "how much
dose it cost" can be anything from $50.00 (lots of luck on a used
machine), to several thousand (or perhaps tens of thousands of) dollars
for a quality *new* machine.

Now -- for the lathe, assuming that your 100 x 100 mm is length
and diameter, you would want a 100 mm swing lathe (maximum diameter), or
perhaps twice that to allow the workpiece to pass over the carriage --
needed for machining the whole of the length to those dimensions). 100
mm is approximately four inches, so an eight inch swing lathe would do
nicely, and that probably means in reality a nine inch as a standard
size. (They seem to jump from seven inch to nine inch). And in the UK,
you would want half the specified size, because they specify the maximum
radius, not the maximum diameter. :-)

Do you really intend to work purely in metric units? If so,
that limits your choices to mostly imported machines. and if you want to
cut threads as part of your operations, you really want a machine which
was made as metric from the ground up. This probably means Austrian, or
perhaps UK. while the Chinese import lathes tend to be partially metric
(such as all of the fasteners used), the leadscrews and handwheels are
most likely calibrated in inch mode.

Chinese lathes in that size range can be made to work, but
ideally they require someone who knows how a machine should behave, and
can did into the machine and fix a lot of the things which weren't
done properly (such as de-burring corners, cleaning out casting sand, and
proper adjustment. And while you're about it -- replace the screws with
US-made ones in the same (metric) sizes. The metallurgy of Chinese
screws tends to be rather poor. (Note that once you get to the 12"
swing or larger, the Chinese lathes tend to be somewhat better -- simply
because the customer base expects more, and will return machines which
don't measure up.

However, used US-made machines, which probably started as better
machines, may be worn enough so they will need some rebuilding -- or at
least replacing of things like cross-feed leadscrews and nuts or similar
things. Again -- this requires someone who knows the machines to
evaluate the quality vs the cost. My Clausing (12x24" size) was a very
good one, and only needed a replacement cross-feed leadscrew and nut to
become a very serviceable. machine. (I was lucky -- but I was dealing
with someone who I trusted.)

Now -- you haven't really specified what kind of precision you
really need for these projects. What is precision to one individual is
very loose tolerances to another.

Any lathe in good condition should be capable of cuts to +/-
0.001" over a short distance with care -- and will need careful initial
setup to maintain that over a longer distance.

However, if you need tolerances in the range of +/- 0.0001",
you're going to need a much better (more expensive) machine -- and more
personal skill in the machinist -- you or someone else.

With lots of patience, skill in following classified ads, and
luck, you might be able to find the machines you need for perhaps
$200-$300 each. The more of a hurry you are in, the more it will cost
you.

To put a bit of perspective on it, I paid about $1700.00 for my
12x24" Clausing lathe about four years ago -- and it was made in 1957.

The Horizontal spindle mill which I got about a year later cost
only $200.00. The shipping cost more. :-) But you need more skill and
imagination to use a horizontal spindle machine. Most people prefer
vertical spindle.

However -- the machines are only part of the cost. Each machine
will need tooling to make it do what it needs to do, and you will need
measuring instruments as well. For a machine obtained at a good price
(not a steal, as you would like), you need to expect to pay as much
again for the tooling as you paid for the machines -- though this can be
stretched out over a long period -- buying what you need when you need
it.

Do you have room to set up a couple of machines weighing
somewhere between 500 pounds and perhaps 1500 pounds? Obviously, this
should be on the ground floor, with easy access to bring them indoors.

This weekend would have been an excellent place to look around
and perhaps even get some of the machines you need -- at the Cabin Fever
expo in Pennsylvannia. There are some other similar gatherings in other
parts of the country -- so you need to specify where you are -- at least
to the state, and perhaps the part of the state if a large state.

And, of course, you might be in one of the industrial areas
currently suffering a downturn, and thus be able to buy the tools quite
inexpensively.

There is a lot to be settled upon before you can be given good
advice.

Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On a side note, I'm wondering how much would the cheapest low-volume
high-precision lathing and milling machines cost. Given the largest
part is 10cm x 10cm but steel might be used...

I picked up my lathe at Darbert Machinery in Toronto. It's a Mashstroy
Troyan lathe (Bulgarian) and is metric and english - the parts are all
metric, it will cut both threads etc. It ran about $4,000.00 but
included quick-change milling attachment, vertical slide for milling,
full change gears for threading, plus a full set of collets for the
milling attachment. 4.25" (or, 8.5" if you prefer) swing with 8"
faceplate etc. No gap bed.

On the other hand, I wish I'd got quick change threading, and the
collets are all metric, and of a really off-size. Plan on spending a
whole bunch more on tooling. The milling function is pretty limited,
but certainly works.

Lee Valley in T.O. has the Taig lathe in their store, and Busybee also
has a bunch of larger machines.

If you're making engines, start looking up the properties of
silicon-aluminum. It's the grey stuff many cylinder heads are made
from, as well as pistons, transmission housings etc. and it's supposed
to have excellent casting properties.

Regards,

Matt Turner
Turner Racing Shells Ltd.
www.turnershells.com

Thanks Matt. I'll visit Darbert Machinery because I needed to check
out mini lathes personally.

I found these two interesting:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=46199
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44142

The smaller one along with a good saw should be a complete
metalworking set for me. I really dont understand much about lathes,
except I need something like this for my projects and will have to
learn it. I'm not too used to the terminology but I can compare the
machines and know the dimensions of materials I'll be using. I will
also have to research materials much further.

I found your website interesting on building sculls. I used to be in a
scull + kayak club in Quetta, its a small town in Pakistan close to
Afghanistan border. Been looking for tranquil lakes here in Canada to
get the practice up...



(Matthew Turner) wrote in message . com...
On a side note, I'm wondering how much would the cheapest low-volume
high-precision lathing and milling machines cost. Given the largest
part is 10cm x 10cm but steel might be used...

I picked up my lathe at Darbert Machinery in Toronto. It's a Mashstroy
Troyan lathe (Bulgarian) and is metric and english - the parts are all
metric, it will cut both threads etc. It ran about $4,000.00 but
included quick-change milling attachment, vertical slide for milling,
full change gears for threading, plus a full set of collets for the
milling attachment. 4.25" (or, 8.5" if you prefer) swing with 8"
faceplate etc. No gap bed.

On the other hand, I wish I'd got quick change threading, and the
collets are all metric, and of a really off-size. Plan on spending a
whole bunch more on tooling. The milling function is pretty limited,
but certainly works.

Lee Valley in T.O. has the Taig lathe in their store, and Busybee also
has a bunch of larger machines.

If you're making engines, start looking up the properties of
silicon-aluminum. It's the grey stuff many cylinder heads are made
from, as well as pistons, transmission housings etc. and it's supposed
to have excellent casting properties.

Regards,

Matt Turner
Turner Racing Shells Ltd.
www.turnershells.com

(Stan Schaefer) wrote in message (David Knaack) wrote in message .
I've been thinking about buying a micro lathe for some projects, but
it is a fairly large buy for something that I don't need all that
often. I'd like to find a hobby shop or somewhere that I can go learn
to use these micor lathes and mills so I can get a feel for how often
I'd use it, and what I really need.

If you've got the room, think about getting something larger than the
Sherline/Unimat/Taig-class lathes, you can always do small stuff on a
large lathe, but it's really hard doing large stuff on a small one.

I've read that doing very small stuff, I'm thinking on the order of a
few mm in diameter and a few cm long, can be difficult on larger
machines because they don't necessarily run as smoothly as the good
micro-lathes.

Obviously this is going to depend on the quality of the lathe, I don't
mean to imply that the big ones can't handle this kind of stuff, just
that the larger lathes that are likely to be in my price range may not
have the ability to do very small precision work.

Thats just what I've read while doing my research into this. I'm not
sure I believe it, it seems to me that any problems that would make
tiny work difficult would likely wreck a large piece too.

Does this sound like a reasonable point against getting a larger
lathe?

Gary Coffman wrote in message . ..
On 15 Jan 2004 13:14:54 -0800, (David Knaack) wrote:
I've been thinking about buying a micro lathe for some projects, but
it is a fairly large buy for something that I don't need all that
often. I'd like to find a hobby shop or somewhere that I can go learn
to use these micor lathes and mills so I can get a feel for how often
I'd use it, and what I really need.

The micro-lathes are very good for very small parts. That's because
small diameters need to turn fast, and most larger lathes can't turn
as fast as these little guys.

That explains why I've been seeing comments that the large lathes are
not as good for small parts.

Figure about the largest thing you'd use
one for would be about 1 inch diameter and about 6 inches long

I can't think of anything I'd use it for that would be that large.
Thats nearly an order of magnitude larger than what I'm after

Thanks to you and all who have responded.
I think the Taig-sized stuff is about what I'm looking for. I just
hope I can find enough projects to justify the expense

DK

In article ,
(David Knaack) wrote:

I can't think of anything I'd use it for that would be that large.
Thats nearly an order of magnitude larger than what I'm after

Then you might want to to look for a watchmakers lathe, rather than the
Taig/Sherline sized ones. My own inclinations are towards much larger
lathes, but I did have fun playing around with a watchmakers lathe which
a friend who has gotten into that line of work encouraged me to try. The
entire setup fit in a smallish breifcase, and may be more suited to the
size work you're doing. New, they are rather expensive, but used ones
can be had more reasonably, and they ship well.

--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by

On 20 Jan 2004 06:53:27 -0800, (David Knaack) wrote:
I've read that doing very small stuff, I'm thinking on the order of a
few mm in diameter and a few cm long, can be difficult on larger
machines because they don't necessarily run as smoothly as the good
micro-lathes.

Obviously this is going to depend on the quality of the lathe, I don't
mean to imply that the big ones can't handle this kind of stuff, just
that the larger lathes that are likely to be in my price range may not
have the ability to do very small precision work.

Thats just what I've read while doing my research into this. I'm not
sure I believe it, it seems to me that any problems that would make
tiny work difficult would likely wreck a large piece too.

What the little machines can usually do that the large machines
usually can't, is turn faster. That's important for small diameter
work because to get up into the range of surface speeds you
want for good cutting action, you have to spin the small diameter
stuff much faster.

But otherwise, the larger machine has to be just as precise if it
is intended to do precise work. You can use collets, or even a pin
vise, to hold work too small to hold normally in a big chuck, so that's
not a real limitation for the larger machine either. The main thing
is speed. Big machines with big chucks are dangerous at high
speeds (can grenade), their bearings often aren't designed for
high speed use, drive trains often aren't designed for high speed
use, etc.

Gary