Uncle George emotes on his observations:

We operationally no longer have a two party system in the US,
i.e. parties presenting policy alternatives. What we have are
two loose groups that have hijacked the names "Democratic" and
"Republican." Remember that it was a bipartisan effort under
Clinton with the help of Bob Dole that pushed NAFTA through.

You are TOTALY right on the money George. Seemed like the
*******s changed color overnight. I wonder what THAT payoff was;
probably can't count that high.

If you want to change things pass term limits and TABOR.
Otherwise you are simply replacing "their" set of bums and
lowlifes with "your" set of bums and lowlifes.

It's worth a try.

Remember the wisdom of the ages:"If you don't get what you want,
then you get what you deserve."

Or (badly paraphrased): "Those who don't (won't, can't?) remember the
past are
doomed to repeat it".

dennis
in nca

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:09:04 -0700, TDKozan wrote:

Some days it just ain't worth the hassle to chew through the straps.

LOL
--
Cliff

On 20 Jan 2006 11:55:10 -0800, "kurgan" wrote:

If one's skills isn't easily duplicated by a person from the Third
World, then that person, under globalization, becomes even more
valuable to his/her employers.

"Study: Most College Students Lack Skills"
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1524660
[
More than half of students at four-year colleges and at least 75 percent at
two-year colleges lack the literacy to handle complex, real-life tasks such as
understanding credit card offers, a study found.

The literacy study funded by the Pew Charitable Trusts, the first to target the
skills of graduating students, finds that students fail to lock in key skills no
matter their field of study.

The results cut across three types of literacy: analyzing news stories and other
prose, understanding documents and having math skills needed for checkbooks or
restaurant tips.
]

"In defense of kollege students"
http://www.shns.com/shns/g_index2.cf...ERACY-01-20-06
[
A new study finds that more than half of college students lack certain vital
reading skills.

We relish bad news about the younger generation as much as the next old-timer,
but there were red flags in the Associated Press story on the study that
prompted us to put in a word of defense for the young lip-movers.

Reported the AP: "They cannot interpret a table about exercise and blood
pressure, understand the arguments of newspaper editorials, compare credit card
offers with different interest rates and annual fees ..."
]
--
Cliff

On 20 Jan 2006 11:55:10 -0800, "kurgan" wrote:

In engineering, the mediocre guys are screwed. Their jobs are going
overseas. On the flip side, the consulting fees for the good ones are
going ever higher. There aren't enough of them and there is an ever
bigger market out there for the various corps. to feed.

"New MBAs are hot, with record signing bonuses"
"Average salary and bonus for new MBAs was up 10 percent in 2005 to $114,000"
http://www.azcentral.com/business/ar...BA-Pay-ON.html
--
Cliff

--
Tim May wrote:
Consider handguns. Many would argue that the best handguns have been
European-made for at least the past decade: Glock, SIG-Sauer,
Heckler and Koch, Beretta, etc.

By contrast, Ruger, Colt, and Smith and Wesson have failed to
innovate.

I had a Ruger and have a Sig Sauer. Ruger sucked. Sig Sauer was
great.

As for jobs moving offshore, my old company is the world's leading
chip company. And it cannot find Americans who can read, write,
think, calculate, innovate. It is moving operations out of the U.S.
at all due speed.

Your old company is now run by accountants, who would not know
technological excellence from a dog that bit them. Time to sell your
intel and buy AMD.

--digsig
James A. Donald
6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
Fo/vSOLH4gMZakVuqnH1Z5TPdJm76J6KsM/BdKjq
4I0nkhUyaGnrRXv255mmwT+U2RC3kq0IxxktHbGei

Mike DeBerry wrote:

I'm just finished section 1 of "THE WORLD IS FLAT" by Freidman, (sppelling
errors are mine). Very interesting so far, can't wait to get to the part
that shows how we are going to recover from globalization.

I'm about 2/3 through the audiobook.

He's mentioned one upside, so far - eventually, as the Indian &
Chinese standard of living improves, we'll have a far larger consumer
market to sell to. We'll still need to compete with their
manufacturers for a share of the market, though.

I'm glad I'm not a 20 year old, just starting my career today. I
think my generation had it easy and just didn't realize it.

I liked this sound bite (might not be exact): "In China today, Bill
Gates is Britney Spears. In America today, Britney Spears is Britney
Spears - and this is our problem."

R,
Tom Q.

--
Remove bogusinfo to reply.

Actually this all started back with Clinton ,he made cuts wherever he
wanted and kept making deals for so called low cost imports to help the
low income families to buy more affordable items and to force american
companies to compete and kept raising the minimum wage thinking that was
a good way to get voted in again(the legal way to buy votes) ,now look
where it got us and if I remembered right it was President Reagan that
kind of saved our economy back in the 80's by pumping more money into
the military for developing of new technologies and weapons and fighter
jets and improvements on different bases across our country ,and that in
turn caused the private sector to keep up by developing the technology
needed to keep up with economy .
I mean look at the advances that was made during the years of Reagan
and Bush Sr. and you will see the difference in our lives from the start
of Reagan's term to the end of Bush Sr's term ,allot of our lives went
to the better .
I find it funny how back in the early 60's when americans loved america
how much better the economy seem to have went and after the so called
Hippy years how bad off the country was
until Reagan got in office,hmm?

It doesn't matter if your a democrat or a republican or even an
independent ,when you take care of your own country first the citizens
are better off

Top posted --

I saw the same BS story. Versions of this have been issued for
at least 25 years by this and other groups with an ax to grind.

Until you see exactly how the questions were asked and what they
contained, it means nothing. Handwringing before this one was by
some geography group lamenting the lack of knowledge and the
ability to read maps by the general population. This died out
when no one could be discovered that had left home and couldn't
find their way back except some members of Congress.

Second point is that just because you know better does *NOT* mean
you will do better.

You also must be careful what you ask for because you just might
get it. You want all out young people to stop buying lottery
tickets and mutal funds and start buying gold. Then what happens
to the consumer economy.

Uncle George




On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:19:53 -0500, Cliff
wrote:

On 20 Jan 2006 11:55:10 -0800, "kurgan" wrote:

If one's skills isn't easily duplicated by a person from the Third
World, then that person, under globalization, becomes even more
valuable to his/her employers.

"Study: Most College Students Lack Skills"
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1524660
[
More than half of students at four-year colleges and at least 75 percent at
two-year colleges lack the literacy to handle complex, real-life tasks such as
understanding credit card offers, a study found.

The literacy study funded by the Pew Charitable Trusts, the first to target the
skills of graduating students, finds that students fail to lock in key skills no
matter their field of study.

The results cut across three types of literacy: analyzing news stories and other
prose, understanding documents and having math skills needed for checkbooks or
restaurant tips.
]

"In defense of kollege students"
http://www.shns.com/shns/g_index2.cf...ERACY-01-20-06
[
A new study finds that more than half of college students lack certain vital
reading skills.

We relish bad news about the younger generation as much as the next old-timer,
but there were red flags in the Associated Press story on the study that
prompted us to put in a word of defense for the young lip-movers.

Reported the AP: "They cannot interpret a table about exercise and blood
pressure, understand the arguments of newspaper editorials, compare credit card
offers with different interest rates and annual fees ..."
]

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:16:01 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

Handwringing before this one was by
some geography group lamenting the lack of knowledge and the
ability to read maps by the general population.

I've always much enjoyed Gunner's grasp of geography.
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:16:01 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

Handwringing before this one was by
some geography group lamenting the lack of knowledge and the
ability to read maps by the general population.

I've always much enjoyed Gunner's grasp of geography.

It's all of the places he's lived. 37 states wasn't it? He's dizzy.

ROTFL

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 00:50:58 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Cliff wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:16:01 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

Handwringing before this one was by
some geography group lamenting the lack of knowledge and the
ability to read maps by the general population.

I've always much enjoyed Gunner's grasp of geography.

It's all of the places he's lived. 37 states wasn't it? He's dizzy.

ROTFL

I'm sure he's experienced far more than 37 states of confusion.

Guido wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 00:50:58 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Cliff wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:16:01 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

Handwringing before this one was by
some geography group lamenting the lack of knowledge and the
ability to read maps by the general population.

I've always much enjoyed Gunner's grasp of geography.

It's all of the places he's lived. 37 states wasn't it? He's dizzy.

ROTFL

I'm sure he's experienced far more than 37 states of confusion.

LOL
Wonder what he'll do when he finds his favorite toys are hitting the road?

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...-home-business

Chinese investors couldn't buy a U.S. oil company or the maker of Maytag
appliances, but now a Hong Kong group will be able to claim a real American
icon: Wham-O Inc., the maker of Frisbee, Hula-Hoop, Silly String and Slip 'N
Slide toys.

Privately held Wham-O said Thursday that it had been acquired by toy
distributor Cornerstone Overseas Investments Ltd. for an undisclosed amount.



--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:09:04 -0700, TDKozan
wrote:

F. George McDuffee wrote:
snip
If you want to change things pass term limits and TABOR.
Otherwise you are simply replacing "their" set of bums and
lowlifes with "your" set of bums and lowlifes.

Uncle George

sigh

We passed both here in CO. Supremes threw out term limits and the
hand-wringers whined convincingly enough to gut and effectively repeal
TABOR.

Some days it just ain't worth the hassle to chew through the straps.

TK
==========================
I saw that in the paper. Here is a suggestion. After Reynolds
v. Sims and Baker v. Carr [one man - one vote / Warren Court] the
state legislatures must have both houses based on population,
thus they are mirrors of each other. Cut your legislative
expenses in half by abolishing either the house or the senate.
Nebraska seems to work fine with a unicameral legislature.

To save even more, cut the number of
representatives/senators/deputies by half in the remaining
chamber.

At least you have Initiative in Colorado. In Texas and Kansas we
are stuck. Oklahoma and Arkansas have had good results with term
limits. In spite of the predictions, oddly enough made by the
incumbents, life as we know it did not end when the career
legislators left government, but some interesting scandals
developed.

Uncle George

Hawke wrote:

Now, for American workers and citizens globalization is a disaster. Making
Americans with the highest living standard in the world compete head to head
with workers in third world countries only causes them to have a marked
decline in living standards.

Hawke

I thought that America was fourth or fifth on the standard of living
chart. Aren't the Swiss at the top?

Dan

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 12:24:51 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

In Texas and Kansas we are stuck.

With you-know-who & what.
--
Cliff

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 14:04:47 -0500, wrote:

Cliff wrote:

Handwringing before this one was by
some geography group lamenting the lack of knowledge and the
ability to read maps by the general population.

I've always much enjoyed Gunner's grasp of geography.

Not if he was calling in artillery on your position. VBG

Blaming him for Vietnam?

"Tehran was known as the Paris of the East" - Gunner on Nov 4 2004
"Tehran was known as the Paris of the East" - Gunner on Dec 3 2004

Lots of other confusion too G.
--
Cliff

"F. George McDuffee" wrote

This country was created to "provide for the common defense",
"general well fare" and "to insure domestic tranquility."

Actually, "this country" created its government to "provide for the common
defence [sic], PROMOTE the general [w]elfare [emphasisis added], ...".
USConst. Preamble.

-jc-

Cliff wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 12:24:51 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:


In Texas and Kansas we are stuck.


With you-know-who & what.

Oh, I dunno, Cliff.

They (Texans) get ****ed enough, they just
might decide to vote for the other guy.

I'd not worry about Kinky and or Grandma causing much problem.

That leaves only you-know-who & what...

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 02:30:47 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Guido wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 00:50:58 GMT, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:

Cliff wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:16:01 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

Handwringing before this one was by
some geography group lamenting the lack of knowledge and the
ability to read maps by the general population.

I've always much enjoyed Gunner's grasp of geography.

It's all of the places he's lived. 37 states wasn't it? He's dizzy.

ROTFL

I'm sure he's experienced far more than 37 states of confusion.

LOL
Wonder what he'll do when he finds his favorite toys are hitting the road?

Winchesters? Of the "several" firearms I own..only one that I can
think of is a Winchester

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...-home-business

Chinese investors couldn't buy a U.S. oil company or the maker of Maytag
appliances, but now a Hong Kong group will be able to claim a real American
icon: Wham-O Inc., the maker of Frisbee, Hula-Hoop, Silly String and Slip 'N
Slide toys.

Privately held Wham-O said Thursday that it had been acquired by toy
distributor Cornerstone Overseas Investments Ltd. for an undisclosed amount.

Wham-0? The dogs prefer cheap Frisbees that are softer..and Wham-0
slingshots were overpriced..so I made my own out of titanium and
stainless steel.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:04:53 GMT, "Tom Wait"
wrote:

Last weekend a guy was in my shop and we were talking about firearms for
investment purposes. After we discussed full-auto stuff he asked me what
guns might be good ones to collect. I told him Model 70 Winchesters have
been good investments in the past and may be good choises now. Oddball
calibers bring premium prices. I must be phycic.

Some of the Remington Classics in the oddballs seem to be good also.
Lots of guys looking for a Remington Classic in 257 Roberts etc.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 20:15:55 GMT, Why wrote:

Last weekend a guy was in my shop and we were talking about firearms for
investment purposes. After we discussed full-auto stuff he asked me what
guns might be good ones to collect. I told him Model 70 Winchesters have
been good investments in the past and may be good choises now. Oddball
calibers bring premium prices. I must be phycic.

I have a bunch or 97's.

Cowboy action shooters just about turn themselves inside out
prostituting their wives or daughters for a decent 97.

Ive got a beater..and one that went through a fire.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

On 19 Jan 2006 13:07:36 -0800, "kurgan"
wrote:


rigger wrote:
Robert Sturgeon offers his opinion:

Other than the loss of the iconic brand name, what is there
to lament? It's not as if we are going to be short of
quality firearms to buy. Even in the classic .30-30 lever
action rifle category, the Winchester is inferior to the
Marlin. Besides, I'd be surprised if no one buys the rights
to the name -- perhaps Uberti/Beretta.

Your opinion, your money, your choice. Others may not and do not
agree.

Thanks to FN our future generations won't have the choices we had.



We can buy more **** than ever before. Our problem isn't lack of
choice. If anything, we have too many choices and are able to consume
too much - certainly much more than we really "need".

Our country consumes 20% of the world's resources. Look at how much
garbage each and every one of us generates every week.


Winchester out of business? Good riddance. Gun consumers were clearly
opting for better products from more modern producers.



thanks,

K. Gringioni.

10 yrs ago..Savage Arms was in receivership. A smart engineer and
shooter bought the company...and I think Savage now sells more than
Winchester and Remington combined. Least in centerfire rifles.

He gave the shooters what they wanted for a price that was reasonable.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:50:31 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

SNIP
Bet you're glad you didn't loose YOUR job or suffer some
other financial loss because of the closing.
What would you say if it had been YOUR favorite maker?
SNIP
An even more important factor -- what do we do when "the ship
hits the sand" again [and it always does sooner or later] and we
need a large number of rifles in a hurry? The existing M-16s
were largely worn out even before Iraq. While we still have
boutique firearms manufacturers second to none, the need will be
for quantity and in a hurry. It is by no means certain that our
overseas suppliers will sell to us [as they may be the source of
the problem] and if they do, it will not be at a bargain rate. I
don't know where I would rank an adequate domestic source of
firearms and ammunition, among other areas such as
pharmacuticals, food, shelter, clothing, etc. but experence
shows that sooner-or-later it ranks pretty high.

Uncle George

Uncle George

There are a gazillion M-Zipteen manufactures in the US. Bushmaster
being one of the better..and they get a **** load of Government
contracts for em..and specialty versions.

The new cartridge hasnt, to my knowledge been finalized yet..but it
will be one tha will fit on existing Mattel Toy lowers

its gonna be either the 6.8mm SPC or the 6.5 Grendal..and I suspect it
will be the 6.8 as it has a wider following in the civilian world.

Thank god the 5.6 or .223 will be history on the battle field. After
they changed the bullet weights and the rate of twist..the ******* was
simply a hole driller..not a man stopper unless you let him hold a
couple or more. We found that out in Mog.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:05:35 -0700, TDKozan wrote:

wrote:
Robert Sturgeon wrote:

On 18 Jan 2006 18:47:43 -0800, "
wrote:


What else did anyone expect? Fabrique Nationale would have been
stupid to keep on both Winchester and Browning as subsidiaries to
compete for the hunting-rifle/shotgun market in America in the
saturated gun market! So - like General Motors eventually deciding to
no longer have Olds compete with Buick - one had to go. You could have
seen this coming long ago.

Other than the loss of the iconic brand name, what is there
to lament? It's not as if we are going to be short of
quality firearms to buy. Even in the classic .30-30 lever
action rifle category, the Winchester is inferior to the
Marlin. Besides, I'd be surprised if no one buys the rights
to the name -- perhaps Uberti/Beretta.

Some Malaysian TV manufacturer will probably slap "Winchester" on their
products.


As long as they're selling electronics, it's no big deal. Until USRAC
decides they want to unload the trademark to the Winchester name for
firearms, which they may but probably won't, it'll be around. Someone
will buy it or, more likely, FN will renew its lease on the TM for
firearms and we'll see Winchester branded rifles being produced
alongside Browning products in the same factories.

If one or the other of the brands brings back the "high wall"
single-shots, I'll be a happy camper regardless of the name on the
receiver.

TK

Browning did about 20 yrs ago..didnt sell many.
Oberti did IRRC about 15 yrs ago..didnt sell many
A few others did too.

Everybody priced em in the ozone..like the current Sharps clones.
Simply not affordable for Joe Sixpack, no matter how much he wanted
one.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 03:15:53 GMT, "John Chase"
wrote:

If one or the other of the brands brings back the "high wall"
single-shots, I'll be a happy camper regardless of the name on the
receiver.

http://www.csharpsarms.com/bossgun.htm

Scroll down to the bottom....

-jc-

Try buying one for a couple hundred less than MFSR.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

On 19 Jan 2006 10:14:36 -0800, "rigger" wrote:


wrote:
What else did anyone expect? Fabrique Nationale would have been
stupid to keep on both Winchester and Browning as subsidiaries to
compete for the hunting-rifle/shotgun market in America in the
saturated gun market! So - like General Motors eventually deciding to
no longer have Olds compete with Buick - one had to go. You could have
seen this coming long ago.


In my opinion, as far as guns in the United States, they made a mistake
and kept the afterbirth and threw out the baby.

dennis
in nca

??????

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

"xray" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 06:31:27 GMT, Gunner wrote:

Thank god the 5.6 or .223 will be history on the battle field. After
they changed the bullet weights and the rate of twist..the ******* was
simply a hole driller..not a man stopper unless you let him hold a
couple or more. We found that out in Mog.

Sorry, where or what is Mog?
Maybe it's obvious, but I don't follow.

And what changed? When? By who?


The change from IMR to Ball powder - mandated by Winchester's "Friends" in
the
Pentagon - resulted in

1. Significantly greater fouling of the chamber due to powder residue
deposits
a. Forced modification to include the bolt-closing handle [M16
M16A1]
b. Incessant jamming due to fouled chambers required excessive
cleaning

2. The slower velocity produced by the ball powder eliminated the
"tumble-on-contact" quality of the .223 Remington ammo.

3. Improved profits for Winchester - the only ammo maker loading ball
powder
at the time.

Gunner asked:

In my opinion, as far as guns in the United States, they made a mistake
and kept the afterbirth and threw out the baby.

dennis
in nca

??????

Gunner

It means I would have liked them to keep Winchester.

By the way, how about dropping the offensive sig?

I mean: "Deep in her heart, every Christian woman yearns to show us her
c___" sounds pretty offensive, DOESN'T it?

It's kind of beneath you (I think).

dennis
in nca

On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 03:42:02 -0800, xray
wrote:

On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 06:31:27 GMT, Gunner wrote:

Thank god the 5.6 or .223 will be history on the battle field. After
they changed the bullet weights and the rate of twist..the ******* was
simply a hole driller..not a man stopper unless you let him hold a
couple or more. We found that out in Mog.

Sorry, where or what is Mog?
Maybe it's obvious, but I don't follow.

And what changed? When? By who?

Mogadishu, Somalia... Blackhawk down...Im sure you have seen the
various articlesa bout shooting the bad guys multiple times, and not
having them go down...nothing makes your asshole slam shut faster than
letting an armed and firing on you, individual a couple rounds center
of mass...watch the dust fly from the front of his shirt..and have him
keep firing on you.

The 5.56 Nato..aka the .223 Remington (in its civilian guise) was
originally a hip slick ad cool cartridge designed to be shot in a hip
slick and cool plastic and aluminum rifle for the Air Force. Not a
lot of ground battles fought by the AF...

Over the years...it gained something of a following...the weapon
itself morphed several times..and the cartridge did also. As someone
is bound to mention..it killed a lot of US troops in Vietnam when it
first came out...there was an issue with the wet, humitity and the
fouling left by the gunpowder. It rusted the weapon into imobility.
The first fix was to chrome plate the bore and bolt..helped but not
much..it wasnt until someone way way at the top was, as I understand
it..taken aside and told that they and their entire family would be
murdered slowly..was the problem resolved. A different gunpowder was
used..which made the weapon reliable in those conditions,

The bullet..which is the crux of the matter, has undergone some morphs
as well. Originally your basic 55grain full metal jacket over a lead
core, exposed base bullet, with a cannalure (that knurled band you see
around some bullets) about 2/3 the way back from the point (this band
is used to crimp or seal the cartridge mouth around the bullet..often
a bit of sealer is used to keep em oil and water proof)

The original rifle/cartridge/bullet combination launched that bullet
at rather high speeds and the rifling inside the barrel would spin the
bullet in such a fashion..that it was marginally stable..ie..it would
keep flying point first until it hit something that disturbed the
balence..then it started to tumble. Given that its about .75
long..having that thing tumbling through your guts at 3200 feet per
second tended to **** up your whole day and make you forget whatever
it was that you were doing..that caused you to get shot in the first
place. Nasty bit of work..though very legal under the Hague
Accords..and everybody does it. (The Swedes some time ago lodged a
protest about the "inhumane tumbling bullet"..but when it was pointed
out to them...that theirs was one of the best at tumbling..they
shutup)

But in the jungle..hitting leaves and blades of grass etc on its way
to the target would cause the bullet to tumble also..and at that
point..the bullet could frisbee off in all directions. Not good.

So they changed the rate of twist of the rifling, the cannalure and a
host of other things over the years until the bullet became largely
stable..with the added bonus that after it penetrated about 4" of
meat..it would start to turn sideways..then break in half at the
cannalure..and both pieces would go their merry way, ruptureing organs
etc etc. Pretty effective in making the bad guy stop really really
fast.

Then the bad guys started wearing body armor..and the ranges got
longer. The bullets were being stopped by the armor. So they added
length, changed the rate of twist again..and added a steel penetrator
to the center of the bullet. This would penetrate armor..but..it made
the bullet into something of a drill, with no where near the tumbling
action..though if things were just right..it still turned sidways and
broke apart. Sometimes. Occasionally. Hopefully.

Which at this point resulted in the latest and greatest SS109 ..a 62
grain bullet which works well on armored dudes..but tends to make tiny
little puncture wounds through both sides of your enemy if he is not
wearing armor. Oh he will likely die..but it may take a while before
he understands this and falls down..in the mean time he has cut off
your head with a machete, then limps home to bleed out.
Mogadisu Somalia..the Sandbox....

I generalized the developement of the weapon, the ammo and such
above..as I could bore you to tears for hours on the subject....the
chance of barrel diameter so it wouldnt bend as easily when you
bayoneted someone..the change from full auto to 3 shot burst...etc etc
etc.

So anyways...the ranges we are now engaging the bad guys mean the
weapon/ammo combination is no longer as effective as it should be..so
the search has been on for quite a while..for a more effective round.
Since we have manufactured a gazillion M16s in its various
incarnations...it was the goal to find a round that would work in the
existing weapons and only require modification, rather than
replacement of an entire mature weapons system.

With the 6.8 SPC or the 6.5 Grendal..one only has to change the upper
half of the weapon..basicly the barrel and gas system and voila..you
have a much farther shooting, harder hitting and very effective
cartridge/rifle that punches body armor, or takes the wind out of
unarmored opponents rather quickly. This saves lifes..and more
importantly to the bean counters...it costs much less than a new
weapons system. Much much less. Either of the cartridges are what
SHOULD have been the original..shrug.

Recoil, full auto rise etc etc are nearly identical to the original
5.56 (with some caviats) and are easily fired by men or women troops
while terminal effectiveness is increased by over an estimated 100%
and nearly doubles the effective range of a stock rifle. This means
you can shoot and hit em much farther away, and they stay down when
you hit em. Which is veddy veddy importante when we are adventuring
out in the wide open spaces such as the Sandbox.

If you are interested in the gazillions of details Ive left
out...google
" Eugene Stoner + AR15"

Here are a few links..

http://www.ar15.com/content/articles...evolution.html

http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/lis...Fencoding=UTF8

http://www.military.com/soldiertech/...ition,,00.html

http://www.demigod.org/~zak/firearms/6.8SPC/faq.php
http://www.65grendel.com/

You may wish to read this report....

http://www.bob-oracle.com/SWATreport.htm

http://www.defensereview.com/modules...rticle&sid=600


Personally..I lean towards the 6.5 Grendel..having shot both rounds in
both bolt action and self loading actions..but either would be a vast
and much needed improvement ..and the differences are really only
noticable only to a purist or highly skilled shooter.

Gunner



"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 09:44:42 -0600, "RAM^3"
wrote:

"xray" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 06:31:27 GMT, Gunner wrote:

Thank god the 5.6 or .223 will be history on the battle field. After
they changed the bullet weights and the rate of twist..the ******* was
simply a hole driller..not a man stopper unless you let him hold a
couple or more. We found that out in Mog.

Sorry, where or what is Mog?
Maybe it's obvious, but I don't follow.

And what changed? When? By who?


The change from IMR to Ball powder - mandated by Winchester's "Friends" in
the
Pentagon - resulted in

1. Significantly greater fouling of the chamber due to powder residue
deposits
a. Forced modification to include the bolt-closing handle [M16
M16A1]
b. Incessant jamming due to fouled chambers required excessive
cleaning

2. The slower velocity produced by the ball powder eliminated the
"tumble-on-contact" quality of the .223 Remington ammo.

3. Improved profits for Winchester - the only ammo maker loading ball
powder
at the time.


Sort of true..but a bit more spun than the actual facts..but close
enough.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

Gunner wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:05:35 -0700, TDKozan wrote:


wrote:

Robert Sturgeon wrote:


On 18 Jan 2006 18:47:43 -0800, "
wrote:



What else did anyone expect? Fabrique Nationale would have been
stupid to keep on both Winchester and Browning as subsidiaries to
compete for the hunting-rifle/shotgun market in America in the
saturated gun market! So - like General Motors eventually deciding to
no longer have Olds compete with Buick - one had to go. You could have
seen this coming long ago.

Other than the loss of the iconic brand name, what is there
to lament? It's not as if we are going to be short of
quality firearms to buy. Even in the classic .30-30 lever
action rifle category, the Winchester is inferior to the
Marlin. Besides, I'd be surprised if no one buys the rights
to the name -- perhaps Uberti/Beretta.


Some Malaysian TV manufacturer will probably slap "Winchester" on their
products.


As long as they're selling electronics, it's no big deal. Until USRAC
decides they want to unload the trademark to the Winchester name for
firearms, which they may but probably won't, it'll be around. Someone
will buy it or, more likely, FN will renew its lease on the TM for
firearms and we'll see Winchester branded rifles being produced
alongside Browning products in the same factories.

If one or the other of the brands brings back the "high wall"
single-shots, I'll be a happy camper regardless of the name on the
receiver.

TK


Browning did about 20 yrs ago..didnt sell many.
Oberti did IRRC about 15 yrs ago..didnt sell many
A few others did too.

Everybody priced em in the ozone..like the current Sharps clones.
Simply not affordable for Joe Sixpack, no matter how much he wanted
one.

Gunner

This is why you can buy a double rifle from Spartan Gun Works, (a
division of Remington) for around $550.

--
Censorship and Gun Control are the political equivalent of binding and
gagging a victim before raping and mugging them.

Such acts are carried out by the same thugs, one with a law degree from
a state pen, the other a law degree from a university for the same sick
perverted purposes which are to remove you from your property, liberty
and dignity, and bend you to will of others.

"Pope Secola VI" wrote in message
...
Gunner wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:05:35 -0700, TDKozan wrote:


wrote:

Robert Sturgeon wrote:


On 18 Jan 2006 18:47:43 -0800, "
wrote:



What else did anyone expect? Fabrique Nationale would have been
stupid to keep on both Winchester and Browning as subsidiaries to
compete for the hunting-rifle/shotgun market in America in the
saturated gun market! So - like General Motors eventually deciding
to
no longer have Olds compete with Buick - one had to go. You could
have
seen this coming long ago.

Other than the loss of the iconic brand name, what is there
to lament? It's not as if we are going to be short of
quality firearms to buy. Even in the classic .30-30 lever
action rifle category, the Winchester is inferior to the
Marlin. Besides, I'd be surprised if no one buys the rights
to the name -- perhaps Uberti/Beretta.


Some Malaysian TV manufacturer will probably slap "Winchester" on their
products.


As long as they're selling electronics, it's no big deal. Until USRAC
decides they want to unload the trademark to the Winchester name for
firearms, which they may but probably won't, it'll be around. Someone
will buy it or, more likely, FN will renew its lease on the TM for
firearms and we'll see Winchester branded rifles being produced
alongside Browning products in the same factories.

If one or the other of the brands brings back the "high wall"
single-shots, I'll be a happy camper regardless of the name on the
receiver.

TK


Browning did about 20 yrs ago..didnt sell many.

I had one, Browning Model 1885, in .223. An exact continuation of the
high-wall. I could hardly find a place to shoot it in NJ so I traded it.

Nice gun. A real high-wall.

--
Ed Huntress

On 22 Jan 2006 09:42:34 -0800, "rigger" wrote:

Gunner asked:

In my opinion, as far as guns in the United States, they made a mistake
and kept the afterbirth and threw out the baby.

dennis
in nca

??????

Gunner

It means I would have liked them to keep Winchester.

By the way, how about dropping the offensive sig?

I mean: "Deep in her heart, every Christian woman yearns to show us her
c___" sounds pretty offensive, DOESN'T it?

It's kind of beneath you (I think).

dennis
in nca

No sense of humor or irony?

Shrug, I notice its ok to bash Christian fundies in any fashion, or in
any manner...but oddly enough...its offensive to joke about Islamic
Fundies.....most interesting point of view....

But hey..Ive never been one to follow the herd mindset of Political
Correctness. Say..did you see the photo spread bin Ladins niece did
the other day?

http://men.style.com/gq/features/lan...d=content_4071

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/55709/..._ladens_niece/



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

I'd not worry about Kinky and or Grandma causing much problem.

That leaves only you-know-who & what...


Perry polished my brother-in-law's boots at A&M. Never did a very good
job. Ain't much of a gov'ner either.

Kinky has my vote.


--
Remove "nospam" to get to me.

Gunner wrote:
On 22 Jan 2006 09:42:34 -0800, "rigger" wrote:

Gunner asked:

In my opinion, as far as guns in the United States, they made a mistake
and kept the afterbirth and threw out the baby.

dennis
in nca

??????

Gunner

It means I would have liked them to keep Winchester.

By the way, how about dropping the offensive sig?

I mean: "Deep in her heart, every Christian woman yearns to show us her
c___" sounds pretty offensive, DOESN'T it?

It's kind of beneath you (I think).

dennis
in nca

No sense of humor or irony?

Shrug, I notice its ok to bash Christian fundies in any fashion, or in
any manner...but oddly enough...its offensive to joke about Islamic
Fundies.....most interesting point of view....

But hey..Ive never been one to follow the herd mindset of Political
Correctness. Say..did you see the photo spread bin Ladins niece did
the other day?

http://men.style.com/gq/features/lan...d=content_4071

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/55709/..._ladens_niece/



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

To say you were unconventional would seem to be quite an
understatement.

I just haven't seen anyone using a sig such as I used in my example,
but if I had I'd have sent a message in that direction also.
You know what they say about "2 wrongs". Not always true certainly but
no need to vilify non-combatants.

I'll pass on the niece. She looks ok though.

dennis
in nca

On 22 Jan 2006 14:38:01 -0800, "rigger" wrote:


Gunner wrote:
On 22 Jan 2006 09:42:34 -0800, "rigger" wrote:

Gunner asked:

In my opinion, as far as guns in the United States, they made a mistake
and kept the afterbirth and threw out the baby.

dennis
in nca

??????

Gunner

It means I would have liked them to keep Winchester.

By the way, how about dropping the offensive sig?

I mean: "Deep in her heart, every Christian woman yearns to show us her
c___" sounds pretty offensive, DOESN'T it?

It's kind of beneath you (I think).

dennis
in nca

No sense of humor or irony?

Shrug, I notice its ok to bash Christian fundies in any fashion, or in
any manner...but oddly enough...its offensive to joke about Islamic
Fundies.....most interesting point of view....

But hey..Ive never been one to follow the herd mindset of Political
Correctness. Say..did you see the photo spread bin Ladins niece did
the other day?

http://men.style.com/gq/features/lan...d=content_4071

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/55709/..._ladens_niece/



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

To say you were unconventional would seem to be quite an
understatement.

G


I just haven't seen anyone using a sig such as I used in my example,
but if I had I'd have sent a message in that direction also.
You know what they say about "2 wrongs". Not always true certainly but
no need to vilify non-combatants.

Tell that to the Xtian bashers.

I'll pass on the niece. She looks ok though.

Your probably safer. Some islamofascist nutbar is likely to try to
perform a Honor Killing on her in the near future. It seems to be the
latest fad amoung Islamic fundies. Particularly in places that have no
capital punishment. Odd that..no?

I hope Wafah gets a CCW and a boyfriend or bodyguard that is competent
with weapons. She may need em. All the power to her though.
A further note..I do know a select few muslim women. And seen a couple
tits or several. Pretty much like the rest of their sisters. And just
as tastey.

dennis
in nca


Gunner, in Central California
"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

Gunner wrote:
On 22 Jan 2006 14:38:01 -0800, "rigger" wrote:


Gunner wrote:
On 22 Jan 2006 09:42:34 -0800, "rigger" wrote:

Gunner asked:

In my opinion, as far as guns in the United States, they made a mistake
and kept the afterbirth and threw out the baby.

dennis
in nca

??????

Gunner

It means I would have liked them to keep Winchester.

By the way, how about dropping the offensive sig?

I mean: "Deep in her heart, every Christian woman yearns to show us her
c___" sounds pretty offensive, DOESN'T it?

It's kind of beneath you (I think).

dennis
in nca

No sense of humor or irony?

Shrug, I notice its ok to bash Christian fundies in any fashion, or in
any manner...but oddly enough...its offensive to joke about Islamic
Fundies.....most interesting point of view....

But hey..Ive never been one to follow the herd mindset of Political
Correctness. Say..did you see the photo spread bin Ladins niece did
the other day?

http://men.style.com/gq/features/lan...d=content_4071

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/55709/..._ladens_niece/



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

To say you were unconventional would seem to be quite an
understatement.

G


I just haven't seen anyone using a sig such as I used in my example,
but if I had I'd have sent a message in that direction also.
You know what they say about "2 wrongs". Not always true certainly but
no need to vilify non-combatants.

Tell that to the Xtian bashers.

I'll pass on the niece. She looks ok though.

Your probably safer. Some islamofascist nutbar is likely to try to
perform a Honor Killing on her in the near future. It seems to be the
latest fad amoung Islamic fundies. Particularly in places that have no
capital punishment. Odd that..no?

I hope Wafah gets a CCW and a boyfriend or bodyguard that is competent
with weapons. She may need em. All the power to her though.
A further note..I do know a select few muslim women. And seen a couple
tits or several. Pretty much like the rest of their sisters. And just
as tastey.

dennis
in nca


Gunner, in Central California
"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

Gee, I can't think of a single reason someone would want to become an
xtian basher, can you?

I mean I spent a little Google time looking around and sure enough
there they were. I didn't see any muslim's doing any bashing though;
maybe they're there and I missed them?

dennis
in nca

dennis
in nca

Gunner wrote:

On 22 Jan 2006 14:38:01 -0800, "rigger" wrote:


Gunner wrote:
On 22 Jan 2006 09:42:34 -0800, "rigger" wrote:

Gunner asked:

In my opinion, as far as guns in the United States, they made a
mistake and kept the afterbirth and threw out the baby.

dennis
in nca

??????

Gunner

It means I would have liked them to keep Winchester.

By the way, how about dropping the offensive sig?

I mean: "Deep in her heart, every Christian woman yearns to show us her
c___" sounds pretty offensive, DOESN'T it?

It's kind of beneath you (I think).

dennis
in nca

No sense of humor or irony?

Shrug, I notice its ok to bash Christian fundies in any fashion, or in
any manner...but oddly enough...its offensive to joke about Islamic
Fundies.....most interesting point of view....

But hey..Ive never been one to follow the herd mindset of Political
Correctness. Say..did you see the photo spread bin Ladins niece did
the other day?

http://men.style.com/gq/features/lan...d=content_4071

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/55709/..._ladens_niece/



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

To say you were unconventional would seem to be quite an
understatement.

G


I just haven't seen anyone using a sig such as I used in my example,
but if I had I'd have sent a message in that direction also.
You know what they say about "2 wrongs". Not always true certainly but
no need to vilify non-combatants.

Tell that to the Xtian bashers.

I'll pass on the niece. She looks ok though.

Your probably safer. Some islamofascist nutbar is likely to try to
perform a Honor Killing on her in the near future. It seems to be the
latest fad amoung Islamic fundies. Particularly in places that have no
capital punishment. Odd that..no?

I hope Wafah gets a CCW and a boyfriend or bodyguard that is competent
with weapons. She may need em. All the power to her though.
A further note..I do know a select few muslim women. And seen a couple
tits or several. Pretty much like the rest of their sisters. And just
as tastey.

Personally I think it would be exceedingly cool (and courageous) for her to
do a layout in Playboy. And none of this "dufour" stuff. Basically an "up
yours Osama". She would, unfortunately, probably die shortly after.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On 22 Jan 2006 19:18:22 -0800, "rigger" wrote:


Gunner wrote:
On 22 Jan 2006 14:38:01 -0800, "rigger" wrote:


Gunner wrote:
On 22 Jan 2006 09:42:34 -0800, "rigger" wrote:

Gunner asked:

In my opinion, as far as guns in the United States, they made a mistake
and kept the afterbirth and threw out the baby.

dennis
in nca

??????

Gunner

It means I would have liked them to keep Winchester.

By the way, how about dropping the offensive sig?

I mean: "Deep in her heart, every Christian woman yearns to show us her
c___" sounds pretty offensive, DOESN'T it?

It's kind of beneath you (I think).

dennis
in nca

No sense of humor or irony?

Shrug, I notice its ok to bash Christian fundies in any fashion, or in
any manner...but oddly enough...its offensive to joke about Islamic
Fundies.....most interesting point of view....

But hey..Ive never been one to follow the herd mindset of Political
Correctness. Say..did you see the photo spread bin Ladins niece did
the other day?

http://men.style.com/gq/features/lan...d=content_4071

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/55709/..._ladens_niece/



"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

To say you were unconventional would seem to be quite an
understatement.

G


I just haven't seen anyone using a sig such as I used in my example,
but if I had I'd have sent a message in that direction also.
You know what they say about "2 wrongs". Not always true certainly but
no need to vilify non-combatants.

Tell that to the Xtian bashers.

I'll pass on the niece. She looks ok though.

Your probably safer. Some islamofascist nutbar is likely to try to
perform a Honor Killing on her in the near future. It seems to be the
latest fad amoung Islamic fundies. Particularly in places that have no
capital punishment. Odd that..no?

I hope Wafah gets a CCW and a boyfriend or bodyguard that is competent
with weapons. She may need em. All the power to her though.
A further note..I do know a select few muslim women. And seen a couple
tits or several. Pretty much like the rest of their sisters. And just
as tastey.

dennis
in nca


Gunner, in Central California
"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

Gee, I can't think of a single reason someone would want to become an
xtian basher, can you?

I mean I spent a little Google time looking around and sure enough
there they were. I didn't see any muslim's doing any bashing though;
maybe they're there and I missed them?

dennis
in nca

Maybe you are looking in the wrong places?

http://www.strangecosmos.com/content/item/5204.html

http://www.danieler.net/archivio/11s...%201160603.JPG

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg....hes_nai104.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4628932.stm

http://www.aliraqi.org/forums/archiv...p/t-51901.html

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/two_b...0 5_2005.html

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/behea...r_14_2005.html

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/throa...g_11_2005.html

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/ansar...19_2005 .html

Want more? Seems you arnt looking very hard.

I wonder why?

Gunner


"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

Gunner wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:05:35 -0700, TDKozan wrote:


snip

If one or the other of the brands brings back the "high wall"
single-shots, I'll be a happy camper regardless of the name on the
receiver.

TK


Browning did about 20 yrs ago..didnt sell many.
Oberti did IRRC about 15 yrs ago..didnt sell many
A few others did too.

Everybody priced em in the ozone..like the current Sharps clones.
Simply not affordable for Joe Sixpack, no matter how much he wanted
one.

Gunner


Which is why I've been lusting after a high-wall in 25-06 for over a
decade. There was never quite been room for it in the budget. Last
year when there was some slack of course, there was nothing being made.

I settled for a BLR in .257 Roberts and I guess I can live with it
until the income picks up again.

TK

--
Cogito ergo bibo