Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Peter Grey
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Stackable" cutters on a vertical mill?

Hi all,

I've been having newbie ruminations. After spending some time making
brackets using my vertical mill/drill, it became obvious how much quicker it
would be to use a horizontal mill with some ganged cutters on an arbor to do
this particular job. Sigh... I suspect a horizontal is in my future.

Anyhow, I wondered if there was a system of ganged cutters available for a
vertical mill. IOW, "stackable" cutters mounted on a small arbor and
inserted into a collett or dedicated holder. Obviously, the approach would
be different than on a horizontal, but it seems possible to do something
like this and minimize the number of passes that one would have to make on
some applications.

Has this been tried and rejected, or not tried for some reason that's not
obvious to me?

Peter


  #2   Report Post  
Wray Schelin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sheetmetal shaping site

Annoucement : for any of the members of RCM that are interested in the
specialized craft of sheetmetal shaping please check out the free
MetalMeet.com site. We now have almost 1100 members from all over the
world in a little over four months . At our current rate of growth we
project 5000 plus members in our first year. Come on over and check it
out. The site is commercial free with no pop up ads, no annoying banner
ads ,no dues, no donations ,content always remains the property of the
posters, and no e-mail to clog up your hard drive, just the best
information about sheetmetal shaping available anywhere interactive and
free. There are over 130 separate forums to allow easy archiving of the
information.

Free galleries to post pictures of your work or look at the work of
others. Thousands of sheetmetal shaping related pictures are already
posted . If you are into shaping sheetmetal with English wheels, power
hammers, or just a simple beater bag ,MetalMeet.com is the place.

Click here to check it out: and register
http://www.metalmeet.com/index.htm

Thanks,

Wray Schelin Administrator

  #3   Report Post  
Jon Elson
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Stackable" cutters on a vertical mill?



Peter Grey wrote:
Hi all,

I've been having newbie ruminations. After spending some time making
brackets using my vertical mill/drill, it became obvious how much quicker it
would be to use a horizontal mill with some ganged cutters on an arbor to do
this particular job. Sigh... I suspect a horizontal is in my future.

Anyhow, I wondered if there was a system of ganged cutters available for a
vertical mill. IOW, "stackable" cutters mounted on a small arbor and
inserted into a collett or dedicated holder. Obviously, the approach would
be different than on a horizontal, but it seems possible to do something
like this and minimize the number of passes that one would have to make on
some applications.

Has this been tried and rejected, or not tried for some reason that's not
obvious to me?


Sure, you can buy "stub milling arbors" with an R-8 shank.
You wouldn't want to have cutters spaced more than a couple of
inches apart to keep bearing loads within reason, bit there's
no problem with doing this. I have never stacked cutters,
but I have used the stub arbors in a Bridgeport with a 1J
head, and they work fine. They can also produce an AMAZING
amount of chips in minutes, which must mean they are really
doing a lot of work.

Jon

  #4   Report Post  
Gary Coffman
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Stackable" cutters on a vertical mill?

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 04:00:32 GMT, "Peter Grey" wrote:
Has this been tried and rejected, or not tried for some reason that's not
obvious to me?


The problem is that your vertical doesn't have an overarm (side arm?)
to keep the arbor from flexing under the load of the ganged cutters.
In other words, instead of maybe 0.020 of cutter engaged in the
material, your ganged setup would have *inches* of cutter engaged
at once. That's a lot of load to be supported only on one end. You'd
get flex and chatter.

Gary
  #5   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Stackable" cutters on a vertical mill?

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:28:05 -0500, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 04:00:32 GMT, "Peter Grey" wrote:
Has this been tried and rejected, or not tried for some reason that's not
obvious to me?


The problem is that your vertical doesn't have an overarm (side arm?)
to keep the arbor from flexing under the load of the ganged cutters.
In other words, instead of maybe 0.020 of cutter engaged in the
material, your ganged setup would have *inches* of cutter engaged
at once. That's a lot of load to be supported only on one end. You'd
get flex and chatter.

Gary


Absolutly correct. While the bearings will support that sort of side
load..the arbor will not. It will indeed flex or deflect. The bigger
and more agressive the cutters, the bigger the deflection.

I love ganging cutters in a horizontal mill thats rigid. You can
generate a LOT of chips very quickly. I have a job to do this weekend
for a magazine fed automatic slitting machine I designed and am
building, and Ill snap a couple pictures as it will be largely cut
with ganged cutters.

I keep a helical slab mill on the arbor most of the time and keep a
pair of matched cutters and spacers at the mill. (Clausing 8540)

Anyone in California want some GREAT horizontal Mills, Greer Machinery
in Huntington Beach, has a pair of K&T #2s, (complete with the
optional vertical heads) for $400 each. Tom told me they were in good
running condition and so far..he has yet to fib or exaggerate.

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"


  #6   Report Post  
Backlash
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Stackable" cutters on a vertical mill?

I regularly use thinner horizontal type cutters in the Bridgeport mounted in
a collet and arbor for prototype work, but the spindle support and overall
rigidity just isn't there for anything more serious. We use Van Norman
universal mills in our production area, and I really like those old things.
Horizontal/vertical setups, reliable, really smooth rapid traverse clutches.
Seems like they are 22U models, IIRC. We have one old Browne &Sharpe
horizontal mill that I added a vertical spindle to, to allow a 1" slot,
horizontally produced, followed immediately by a T slot vertical cutter.
It's a cast piece, and this saved much secondary setup.relative to clamping
and alignment. Trippled production on the part.

RJ


"Peter Grey" wrote in message
k.net...
Hi all,

I've been having newbie ruminations. After spending some time making
brackets using my vertical mill/drill, it became obvious how much quicker

it
would be to use a horizontal mill with some ganged cutters on an arbor to

do
this particular job. Sigh... I suspect a horizontal is in my future.

Anyhow, I wondered if there was a system of ganged cutters available for a
vertical mill. IOW, "stackable" cutters mounted on a small arbor and
inserted into a collett or dedicated holder. Obviously, the approach

would
be different than on a horizontal, but it seems possible to do something
like this and minimize the number of passes that one would have to make on
some applications.

Has this been tried and rejected, or not tried for some reason that's not
obvious to me?

Peter




  #7   Report Post  
Peter Grey
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Stackable" cutters on a vertical mill?

Gunner,

Does any company make small horizontal milling machines any more? When ever
I look for new import mills in the $1,500 - $2,000 price range, all I see
are verticals. How come?

Are the K&Ts as small as your Vernon?

Peter


"Gunner" wrote in message
...

Anyone in California want some GREAT horizontal Mills, Greer Machinery
in Huntington Beach, has a pair of K&T #2s, (complete with the
optional vertical heads) for $400 each. Tom told me they were in good
running condition and so far..he has yet to fib or exaggerate.

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"



  #8   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Stackable" cutters on a vertical mill?

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:10:59 GMT, "Peter Grey"
wrote:

Gunner,

Does any company make small horizontal milling machines any more? When ever
I look for new import mills in the $1,500 - $2,000 price range, all I see
are verticals. How come?


The Asians still make horizontal mills, though generally big ones.
Horizontal mills are often too slow for production work of generalized
nature, but are still used extensively in the automotive manufacturing
world.

Are the K&Ts as small as your Vernon?


No. G the #2s have a foot print about the size of a Bridgeport and
weigh a bit more. Around 3000-3500 lbs

Here is a picture of the type
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=57 036
and another

These are NOT the machines that are for sale, just pictures of the
model.

For those who already own one..I just got an entire manual that I will
be scanning. A clients shop just purchased one, and Ive been setting
it up and making fixtures to do gang milling of one particular part.
http://www.deschner.com/

Good people and on my A list...

Gunner



Peter


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .

Anyone in California want some GREAT horizontal Mills, Greer Machinery
in Huntington Beach, has a pair of K&T #2s, (complete with the
optional vertical heads) for $400 each. Tom told me they were in good
running condition and so far..he has yet to fib or exaggerate.

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"



"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"
  #9   Report Post  
Glenn Lyford
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Stackable" cutters on a vertical mill?

Does any company make small horizontal milling machines any more?
When ever I look for new import mills in the $1,500 - $2,000 price
range, all I see are verticals.


Well, there's this one, but it's outside your range:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...emnumber=G3617

--Glenn Lyford
  #10   Report Post  
James Crombie
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Stackable" cutters on a vertical mill?

Glenn Lyford wrote:
Does any company make small horizontal milling machines any more?
When ever I look for new import mills in the $1,500 - $2,000 price
range, all I see are verticals.



Well, there's this one, but it's outside your range:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...emnumber=G3617

--Glenn Lyford

You can get an attachment for bridgeport style mills that use an angle
head and arbor with a steady that attaches to the dovetail on the head
slide.

Check out https://www.travers.com/index.asp and goto page 455 and look
for the milling accessories set about half way down the page. $682 for
the Taiwan made set. the Dorian set is about $1500 I have used the
angle heads alot but not with the arbor or support. We had one machine
set up almost permanetly with one.



  #11   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Stackable" cutters on a vertical mill?

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:27:36 -0400, James Crombie
wrote:

Glenn Lyford wrote:
Does any company make small horizontal milling machines any more?
When ever I look for new import mills in the $1,500 - $2,000 price
range, all I see are verticals.



Well, there's this one, but it's outside your range:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...emnumber=G3617

--Glenn Lyford

You can get an attachment for bridgeport style mills that use an angle
head and arbor with a steady that attaches to the dovetail on the head
slide.

Check out https://www.travers.com/index.asp and goto page 455 and look
for the milling accessories set about half way down the page. $682 for
the Taiwan made set. the Dorian set is about $1500 I have used the
angle heads alot but not with the arbor or support. We had one machine
set up almost permanetly with one.


If anyone needs a right angle attachment for a BPort, I think one of
my customers has one that he doesnt use. I might be able to get it
from him reasonable. Not free, but reasonable. Knowing him, it will
have the arbor and support.

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"
  #12   Report Post  
Grant Erwin
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Stackable" cutters on a vertical mill?

Gunner wrote:

If anyone needs a right angle attachment for a BPort, I think one of
my customers has one that he doesnt use. I might be able to get it
from him reasonable. Not free, but reasonable. Knowing him, it will
have the arbor and support.


Note that Bridgeport made several arbors for their RA attachment. Each
arbor has a uniquely-sized collet which is used in the outboard support
casting. Many people offer these arbors for resale on ebay, but few offer
the collets, and you can not use the one without the other. Similarly,
many of these arbors are offered without their arbor nuts and these should
be devalued accordingly, as the arbor nuts often have LH threads and are
hardened and ground very precisely so they aren't trivial to reproduce at
home.

Finally, I don't believe you can ever do very heavy milling with a BP RA
attachment. And for anything even remotely approaching heavy you will need
to rig flood coolant.

Regards,

Grant Erwin
Kirkland, Washington

  #13   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Stackable" cutters on a vertical mill?

In article , Grant Erwin says...

Finally, I don't believe you can ever do very heavy milling with a BP RA
attachment. And for anything even remotely approaching heavy you will need
to rig flood coolant.


Heck, I've seen entire horizontal mills that sold cheaper
than one of those right angle things.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

  #14   Report Post  
Ed Beers
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Stackable" cutters on a vertical mill?

They also have this one (G8031)

http://www.grizzlyoutlet.com/item.cfm?Product_ID=784&?&User_ID=1127479&St=7834& St2=87230317&St3=58959732&DS_ID=1

I assume it wasn't a big seller as it is now in the outlet store...

Ed

On
Sun, 11 Jan 2004 04:05:16 +0000, Glenn Lyford wrote:

Does any company make small horizontal milling machines any more?
When ever I look for new import mills in the $1,500 - $2,000 price
range, all I see are verticals.


Well, there's this one, but it's outside your range:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...emnumber=G3617

--Glenn Lyford


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How do you store H Mill cutters? Gunner Metalworking 17 November 24th 03 06:10 AM
Rockwell Vertical Mill Owners.... Bill Fill Metalworking 1 July 13th 03 04:34 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:27 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"