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Ryan
 
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Default Generators and Back-up power

We have an rural machine shed (100 amp single phase) mostly used to store
farm vehicles and also is our workshop where we have the mill, lathe,
welder, etc. It is prone to power outages more and more these days and at we
seem to be working in there everyday so it obviously becomes very
inconvenient when the power is out. As it turns out, we are one of three
properties in a rural area that has "easily tripped" power. We are always
the first to lose power, and the last to get it back up. I'm not sure what
they call it, but the part they always have to fix is on a power pole a few
miles up the road from us, and it looks kind of like a paper clip. Anyways,
usually the power flickers for a bit, then poof, it is off until they send a
service truck out to repair it.

So last month we bought a 7500 watt generator to make life smoother and at
least keep the heat and lights on Here is where my question comes in. Some
of the people around here say you can go to the breaker panel and turn off
the main breaker (from the grid) and make a "cheater plug" to back-feed the
breaker panel thru a 240volt outlet (of which we have several "welder" plugs
that would be ideal for this). What are the thoughts of the group to do
something like this? I understand it is a shortcut, but if one was sensible
about it is this a viable temporary option over the "transfer switch" the
local electrician wants 1000 bucks to install?

Thanks in advance to all helpful posters, Ryan


  #2   Report Post  
Eric R Snow
 
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Default Generators and Back-up power

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 15:10:15 GMT, "Ryan"
wrote:

We have an rural machine shed (100 amp single phase) mostly used to store
farm vehicles and also is our workshop where we have the mill, lathe,
welder, etc. It is prone to power outages more and more these days and at we
seem to be working in there everyday so it obviously becomes very
inconvenient when the power is out. As it turns out, we are one of three
properties in a rural area that has "easily tripped" power. We are always
the first to lose power, and the last to get it back up. I'm not sure what
they call it, but the part they always have to fix is on a power pole a few
miles up the road from us, and it looks kind of like a paper clip. Anyways,
usually the power flickers for a bit, then poof, it is off until they send a
service truck out to repair it.

So last month we bought a 7500 watt generator to make life smoother and at
least keep the heat and lights on Here is where my question comes in. Some
of the people around here say you can go to the breaker panel and turn off
the main breaker (from the grid) and make a "cheater plug" to back-feed the
breaker panel thru a 240volt outlet (of which we have several "welder" plugs
that would be ideal for this). What are the thoughts of the group to do
something like this? I understand it is a shortcut, but if one was sensible
about it is this a viable temporary option over the "transfer switch" the
local electrician wants 1000 bucks to install?

Thanks in advance to all helpful posters, Ryan

A bad idea Ryan. Way bad. You can buy and install your own transfer
switch for lots less than $1000.00 if you are able to wire up a plug.
My neighbor wired his up the cheater way. I told him this is really
stupid, someone could get shocked. Months later, he is at work and his
wife calls me to start the generator because the lights were
flickering and she wanted to be ready. When I got there the cheater
cord was not plugged in to the generator. She said it wouldn't fit. I
looked at the end and one prong was bent in a little. I grabbed this
prong to bend it back and got one hell of a jolt. Seems she had
already plugged the other end into the 220 volt receptacle on the
panel. I should have checked but it didn't occur to me that anyone
would plug the cord in when there was power. If she had been able to
get that plug into the generator it would have ruined it. I could have
been killed by stupidly grabbing a prong that I assumed was dead. And
I know better. My neighbor's wife doesn't. And my neighbor had told
his wife how to hook everything up. She just didn't get it. And if the
power is out and someone hooks up your cheater without throwing the
main breaker first your generator might be hooked up to other houses
or it might electrocute someone working on the line. Save yourself a
headache and do it right. I'll bet you could find a transfer switch on
ebay. Yup, 88 items found. Harbor freight has one for $340.00. Twelve
circuits. Item 90813-0VGA. Also see item 38521-4VGA. This will also
work for you and is $260.00. Cheap insurance against someone getting
killed. And cheap insurance protecting your generator.
Eric R Snow
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Toolbert
 
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"Ryan" wrote in message
news:rjVKb.89186$6b2.6340@edtnps84...
....
So last month we bought a 7500 watt generator to make life smoother and at
least keep the heat and lights on Here is where my question comes in.

Some
of the people around here say you can go to the breaker panel and turn off
the main breaker (from the grid) and make a "cheater plug" to back-feed

the
breaker panel thru a 240volt outlet (of which we have several "welder"

plugs
that would be ideal for this). What are the thoughts of the group to do
something like this? I understand it is a shortcut, but if one was

sensible
about it is this a viable temporary option over the "transfer switch" the
local electrician wants 1000 bucks to install?


As Eric writes the cheater plug works but is an easy way to kill or be
killed.

The cheapest and most useful transfer setup, IMO, is the 60 or 100 amp
single circuit style that consists of a small subpanel with a pair of
interlocked 240V breakers. Flip one off and the other on to switch from
utility to generator. The interlock prevents both from being on at the same
time.

You use this style by installing a separate subpanel next to the main panel
and moving the circuits you want to be "backed up" to the new panel, then
installing the manual transfer switch between the main and subpanel. You
then arent' limited by the circuit mix of the (overpriced) GenTran style
switches - like the lack of 30 amp circuits.

The attraction of the GenTran switches is you just feed this bundle of wires
into the existing panel and make connections with wire nuts.

A pricier alternative to the interlocked-breakers switch is a "double throw"
disconnect - looks like a regular 60 or 100 amp disconnect switch except it
has two "on" positions. They are expensive retail but can be found on
ebay.

Bob


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Jonathan Barnes
 
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"Toolbert" wrote in message
s.com...

"Ryan" wrote in message
news:rjVKb.89186$6b2.6340@edtnps84...
...
So last month we bought a 7500 watt generator to make life smoother and

at
least keep the heat and lights on Here is where my question comes in.

Some
of the people around here say you can go to the breaker panel and turn

off
the main breaker (from the grid) and make a "cheater plug" to back-feed

the
breaker panel thru a 240volt outlet (of which we have several "welder"

plugs
that would be ideal for this). What are the thoughts of the group to do
something like this? I understand it is a shortcut, but if one was

sensible
about it is this a viable temporary option over the "transfer switch"

the
local electrician wants 1000 bucks to install?


As Eric writes the cheater plug works but is an easy way to kill or be
killed.

The cheapest and most useful transfer setup, IMO, is the 60 or 100 amp
single circuit style that consists of a small subpanel with a pair of
interlocked 240V breakers. Flip one off and the other on to switch from
utility to generator. The interlock prevents both from being on at the

same
time.

You use this style by installing a separate subpanel next to the main

panel
and moving the circuits you want to be "backed up" to the new panel, then
installing the manual transfer switch between the main and subpanel. You
then arent' limited by the circuit mix of the (overpriced) GenTran style
switches - like the lack of 30 amp circuits.

The attraction of the GenTran switches is you just feed this bundle of

wires
into the existing panel and make connections with wire nuts.

A pricier alternative to the interlocked-breakers switch is a "double

throw"
disconnect - looks like a regular 60 or 100 amp disconnect switch except

it
has two "on" positions. They are expensive retail but can be found on
ebay.

Bob

The other problem with the cheater plug method.... if you forget to throw
the main breaker, and the power comes back on, your 5 KVA verses the
electric companies
5 MVA is not a fair fight......
--
Jonathan

Barnes's theorem; for every foolproof device
there is a fool greater than the proof.

To reply remove AT


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Leo Lichtman
 
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Toolbert wrote: (clip) The interlock prevents both from being on at the
same time. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^
That is a very important requirement, both legally and practically. When I
first set up my generator, I solved the problem by buying a heavy twistlock
connector, and inserting it into the power line between the meter and the
house. I wired a cord with a matching connector, which brought the power
from my generator to the same location. In order to plug the generator into
the house, it was necessary to unplug from the utility. In order to
reconnect to the utility, I had to unplug from the meter. No way could they
be hooked up at the same time, and the plugs were designed to minimize any
possibility of touching a "hot" prong.

Costco, for a while, was selling an overpriced setup, with wattmeters and
several double-throw circuit breakers, which is more convenient. They
evidently didn't sell well, because the price kept dropping. When it got
down to $60 I bought the next to the last one they had, and it working
really well.




  #6   Report Post  
George
 
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"Ryan" wrote:

We have an rural machine shed (100 amp single phase) mostly used to store
farm vehicles and also is our workshop where we have the mill, lathe,
welder, etc. It is prone to power outages more and more these days and at we
seem to be working in there everyday so it obviously becomes very
inconvenient when the power is out. As it turns out, we are one of three
properties in a rural area that has "easily tripped" power. We are always
the first to lose power, and the last to get it back up. I'm not sure what
they call it, but the part they always have to fix is on a power pole a few
miles up the road from us, and it looks kind of like a paper clip. Anyways,
usually the power flickers for a bit, then poof, it is off until they send a
service truck out to repair it.

So last month we bought a 7500 watt generator to make life smoother and at
least keep the heat and lights on Here is where my question comes in. Some
of the people around here say you can go to the breaker panel and turn off
the main breaker (from the grid) and make a "cheater plug" to back-feed the
breaker panel thru a 240volt outlet (of which we have several "welder" plugs
that would be ideal for this). What are the thoughts of the group to do
something like this? I understand it is a shortcut, but if one was sensible
about it is this a viable temporary option over the "transfer switch" the
local electrician wants 1000 bucks to install?

Thanks in advance to all helpful posters, Ryan


Well Ryan, everyone is telling you that this is such a bad and
dangerous idea. I hate to buck the trend however, I've done it and it
worked fine.

I'd really like to have a system that automatically kicks in when the
power fails and we all know that that is the right and proper way to
do it. But looks over shoulder when I got the generator the power
was out so I cobbled up a double ended plug in order to turn the
lights on. So far I haven't bothered to go back and do it right.

Don't tell anyone.

George.
(Living on the edge)
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Eric R Snow
 
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Well Ryan, everyone is telling you that this is such a bad and
dangerous idea. I hate to buck the trend however, I've done it and it
worked fine.

I'd really like to have a system that automatically kicks in when the
power fails and we all know that that is the right and proper way to
do it. But looks over shoulder when I got the generator the power
was out so I cobbled up a double ended plug in order to turn the
lights on. So far I haven't bothered to go back and do it right.

Don't tell anyone.

George.
(Living on the edge)

Of course it works George. That's not the problem. Lot's of people do
risky things and get away with it. Just depends how much risk you are
willing to take and how much resposnibility you are willing to bear
when your risky behaviour impacts others.
ERS
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Ian Stirling
 
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Default Generators and Back-up power

Eric R Snow wrote:


Well Ryan, everyone is telling you that this is such a bad and
dangerous idea. I hate to buck the trend however, I've done it and it
worked fine.

I'd really like to have a system that automatically kicks in when the
power fails and we all know that that is the right and proper way to
do it. But looks over shoulder when I got the generator the power
was out so I cobbled up a double ended plug in order to turn the
lights on. So far I haven't bothered to go back and do it right.

Don't tell anyone.


Of course it works George. That's not the problem. Lot's of people do
risky things and get away with it. Just depends how much risk you are
willing to take and how much resposnibility you are willing to bear
when your risky behaviour impacts others.


You've also got to make sure that nobody else who doesn't understand
exactly why it's risky knows about the cord.

You'r away.

Power goes out.
Relative/friend/housemate/SO wants to run the fridge/waterbed/fishtank
and tries to get the generator running.
Do they know that they must turn the breaker off, and just how dangerous
a suicide cord can be?
Will they remember what you've told them in 3 years?
  #9   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article , Ian Stirling says...

Do they know that they must turn the breaker off, and just how dangerous
a suicide cord can be?


If not they will learn fast.

Will they remember what you've told them in 3 years?


Poor memory punishable by pain. Like the indians
said, tell a kid a thousand times not to walk into
the fire. Let them do it once, and they remember
forever.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

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Tom Kendrick
 
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"Ryan" wrote in message news:rjVKb.89186$6b2.6340@edtnps84...
snipped
What are the thoughts of the group to do
something like this? I understand it is a shortcut, but if one was sensible
about it is this a viable temporary option over the "transfer switch" the
local electrician wants 1000 bucks to install?


There are three issues he
1. money
2. safety
3. liability

The "right" answer is the transfer switch. From there it's only a
matter of cost. If you found someone to put in a transfer switch for
$10, it would be done already.
The electrician is billing you for 3 things - labor, materials and
liability. Two of those you can do for yourself. Purchase the
equipment and install it yourself. The third item is liability. Get a
licensed electrician to sign off that it's properly installed.


  #11   Report Post  
Paul Amaranth
 
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"Toolbert" wrote in message ws.com...
"Ryan" wrote in message
news:rjVKb.89186$6b2.6340@edtnps84...
...
So last month we bought a 7500 watt generator to make life smoother and at
least keep the heat and lights on Here is where my question comes in.

Some
of the people around here say you can go to the breaker panel and turn off
the main breaker (from the grid) and make a "cheater plug" to back-feed

the
breaker panel thru a 240volt outlet (of which we have several "welder"

plugs
that would be ideal for this). What are the thoughts of the group to do
something like this? I understand it is a shortcut, but if one was

sensible
about it is this a viable temporary option over the "transfer switch" the
local electrician wants 1000 bucks to install?


As Eric writes the cheater plug works but is an easy way to kill or be
killed.

The cheapest and most useful transfer setup, IMO, is the 60 or 100 amp
single circuit style that consists of a small subpanel with a pair of
interlocked 240V breakers. Flip one off and the other on to switch from
utility to generator. The interlock prevents both from being on at the same
time.

You use this style by installing a separate subpanel next to the main panel
and moving the circuits you want to be "backed up" to the new panel, then
installing the manual transfer switch between the main and subpanel. You
then arent' limited by the circuit mix of the (overpriced) GenTran style
switches - like the lack of 30 amp circuits.

The attraction of the GenTran switches is you just feed this bundle of wires
into the existing panel and make connections with wire nuts.

A pricier alternative to the interlocked-breakers switch is a "double throw"
disconnect - looks like a regular 60 or 100 amp disconnect switch except it
has two "on" positions. They are expensive retail but can be found on
ebay.

Bob


If you buy these new, look for the GE brand. I put in a 200Amp switch
in front of my breaker panel and it runs in the $300-400 range. The
next closest price was around $700. Seems ridiculous for basically a
knife switch in a big empty box, but there you go. Since you only
have a 100A box, you could go for a smaller one. The price seems to
go up exponentially with amperage ratings so even a new one would
probably be around $200. For smaller setups, the GenTran switches are
the way to go. You can probably find one cheap on e-bay.

Think of it as insurance. If anyone gets hurt or killed when you're
backfeeding your panel, the cost of the switch will pale into
insignificance. It's also way more convenient.

Paul
  #12   Report Post  
Ian Stirling
 
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jim rozen wrote:
In article , Ian Stirling says...

Do they know that they must turn the breaker off, and just how dangerous
a suicide cord can be?


If not they will learn fast.

Will they remember what you've told them in 3 years?


Poor memory punishable by pain. Like the indians
said, tell a kid a thousand times not to walk into
the fire. Let them do it once, and they remember
forever.


And burning others to death is a great teacher.
  #13   Report Post  
Anthony
 
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(Paul Amaranth) wrote in
om:

"Toolbert" wrote in message
ws.com...
"Ryan" wrote in message
news:rjVKb.89186$6b2.6340@edtnps84...
...
So last month we bought a 7500 watt generator to make life smoother
and at least keep the heat and lights on Here is where my question
comes in.

Some
of the people around here say you can go to the breaker panel and
turn off the main breaker (from the grid) and make a "cheater plug"
to back-feed

the
breaker panel thru a 240volt outlet (of which we have several
"welder"

plugs
that would be ideal for this). What are the thoughts of the group
to do something like this? I understand it is a shortcut, but if
one was

sensible
about it is this a viable temporary option over the "transfer
switch" the local electrician wants 1000 bucks to install?


As Eric writes the cheater plug works but is an easy way to kill or
be killed.

The cheapest and most useful transfer setup, IMO, is the 60 or 100
amp single circuit style that consists of a small subpanel with a
pair of interlocked 240V breakers. Flip one off and the other on to
switch from utility to generator. The interlock prevents both from
being on at the same time.

You use this style by installing a separate subpanel next to the main
panel and moving the circuits you want to be "backed up" to the new
panel, then installing the manual transfer switch between the main
and subpanel. You then arent' limited by the circuit mix of the
(overpriced) GenTran style switches - like the lack of 30 amp
circuits.

The attraction of the GenTran switches is you just feed this bundle
of wires into the existing panel and make connections with wire nuts.

A pricier alternative to the interlocked-breakers switch is a "double
throw" disconnect - looks like a regular 60 or 100 amp disconnect
switch except it has two "on" positions. They are expensive retail
but can be found on ebay.

Bob


If you buy these new, look for the GE brand. I put in a 200Amp switch
in front of my breaker panel and it runs in the $300-400 range. The
next closest price was around $700. Seems ridiculous for basically a
knife switch in a big empty box, but there you go. Since you only
have a 100A box, you could go for a smaller one. The price seems to
go up exponentially with amperage ratings so even a new one would
probably be around $200. For smaller setups, the GenTran switches are
the way to go. You can probably find one cheap on e-bay.

Think of it as insurance. If anyone gets hurt or killed when you're
backfeeding your panel, the cost of the switch will pale into
insignificance. It's also way more convenient.

Paul



Not to mention, if the Electric Co. notices your backfeed plug, with no
interlock, it is HIGLY likely they will cut your power off (pull the
meter), as this is a huge safety no-no. You will be out the cost of an
electrical inspection, and a reconnect fee, and any other costs they want
to charge you before you can get power again. They don't want their
linemen getting killed while working on a line that is supposedly dead.


--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email
  #14   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article , Anthony says...

Not to mention, if the Electric Co. notices your backfeed plug, with no
interlock, it is HIGLY likely they will cut your power off (pull the
meter), as this is a huge safety no-no.


Heh. The last time there was a power out, you could not
find a single rep from the power company for miles around.
If they had showed up, there would have been a mob scene
lynching.

They deliberately brought our area's power down to load
shed, for 'a few hours' so they could bring up the ritzy
areas. 'A few hours' lasted about 20.

I think the cops probably would have helped throw the
ropes over the lamp-posts.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

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Ryan
 
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"jim rozen" typed
Heh. The last time there was a power out, you could not
find a single rep from the power company for miles around.
If they had showed up, there would have been a mob scene
lynching.

I think the cops probably would have helped throw the
ropes over the lamp-posts.

Jim

That is TOO TRUE Jim! If a fine representative for the power company ever
came onto my property during a power outage, he'd be too busy dodging the
airborne barrage of whatever the hell I could get my hands on to see any
impromptu wiring! Over the last 6 years we have had 17 outages lasting more
than 1 hour each time, and they are all in the last 3 years since a new
company has taken over "rural" service.

Anyways, thanks for the chuckle Jim!

And thanks for all the insightful replies folks... I agree that doing it the
safe way is superior... just looking for some feedback. I did a search for
the GenTran as a few of you mentioned it, and saw the way it is wired...
maybe I read it wrong, but it looked like you had to wire up the items you
want to power up individually. I thought you could just power the entire
breaker panel, then shut the breakers off on the circuits you are not
wanting to use. Ryan






  #16   Report Post  
Ecnerwal
 
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In article mw1Lb.184434$ss5.124112@clgrps13,
"Ryan" wrote:

maybe I read it wrong, but it looked like you had to wire up the items you
want to power up individually. I thought you could just power the entire
breaker panel, then shut the breakers off on the circuits you are not
wanting to use. Ryan


What my Dad has at his house in Maine, which is blessed there, is a
setup with the generator fed into the breaker panel (by a breaker of the
generator's rated size) next to the main breaker, and there is a metal
part (interlock) between the generator breaker and the main breaker
which does not allow both to be on at the same time (I'm reasonably sure
it does allow both to be off, however).

Check with the electrician who you will pay for inspecting whether this
is legal in your area. It should be cheap - the interlock part is just a
metal stamping which turns one breaker off if you turn the other breaker
on, whcih pivots in the middle.

As opposed to a manual transfer switch, this has to be a lot cheaper,
just as safe, and it does allow choosing which loads to power from all
loads connected to the panel by flipping their breakers. I don't know
how widely this simple interlock system is accepted (no reason it should
not be other than lobbying of the authorities by people selling
overpriced transfer switches). People who want to sell overpriced
transfer switches should stick to selling the automatic sort, IMHO.

--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by
  #17   Report Post  
AL A.
 
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Default Generators and Back-up power


headache and do it right. I'll bet you could find a transfer switch on
ebay. Yup, 88 items found. Harbor freight has one for $340.00. Twelve
circuits. Item 90813-0VGA. Also see item 38521-4VGA. This will also
work for you and is $260.00. Cheap insurance against someone getting
killed. And cheap insurance protecting your generator.
Eric R Snow



Good advice!
I bought a transfer panel at a local hardware store. It is the sub panel
type with 2 interlocked 60 amp breakers in it. It was made by
Square D and cost me 70 buck brand new in the box, including the 2 60A
breakers. Will transfer 4 120v circuits (8 if you use the "duplex" type
breakers).

Way cheap insurance and piece of mind.

I can go look at the Square D part number, if anyone cares to know.

-AL


  #18   Report Post  
Mark Jerde
 
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Ryan wrote:

Over the last 6 years we have
had 17 outages lasting more than 1 hour each time, and they are all
in the last 3 years since a new company has taken over "rural"
service.


I spent a week setting up a computer system & training users in Sana'a,
Yemen. Losing power for 2-3 hours in the workday was normal. I heard
automatic weapons fire at night but never an emergency siren the whole week.
Broken sewage pipes, bribing policemen so your car would still be there when
you came back from the market, filth & poverty everywhere, cancelled
excursions because of kidnapping & worse threats... I was so happy to get
back to the good ol' U.S. of A!

17 outages in 3 years needs to be improved, I agree. My neighborhood goes
down so often my computers have UPS's. But my gratitude for our system is
much higher now. g

-- Mark



  #19   Report Post  
Eric R Snow
 
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And thanks for all the insightful replies folks... I agree that doing it the
safe way is superior... just looking for some feedback. I did a search for
the GenTran as a few of you mentioned it, and saw the way it is wired...
maybe I read it wrong, but it looked like you had to wire up the items you
want to power up individually. I thought you could just power the entire
breaker panel, then shut the breakers off on the circuits you are not
wanting to use. Ryan


Yes Ryan, you can do it that way. It is the cheapest of the safe ways.
I know money is tight but consider this: if all the things you want
powered are wired to both panels then it is real easy to avoid
overloading your generator. Of course, you could post a list next to
the breaker box so that anyone can turn off the correct breakers. And
even though you know the system real well others might not pay too
much attention. I don't know your situation but if money was really
tight I'd do like you mention above and hope that everyone that who
switches the power follows the directions. Just make sure that
whatever you do there is no way that your setup can back power the
line or allow line power into your gen set.
Cheers,
Eric

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Leo Lichtman
 
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George wrote: I hate to buck the trend however, I've done it and it worked
fine. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^
George, during the first power failure after I bought my generator, I was
not prepared, so I hooked up using my jumper cables. We had lights. But, I
was taking a risk which I would not suggest to anyone else, and, as soon as
I could, I switched (accidental pun) to something better.






  #21   Report Post  
Dan
 
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"Leo Lichtman" wrote in message
...

Toolbert wrote: (clip) The interlock prevents both from being on at the
same time. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^
That is a very important requirement, both legally and practically. When

I
first set up my generator, I solved the problem by buying a heavy

twistlock
connector, and inserting it into the power line between the meter and the
house. I wired a cord with a matching connector, which brought the power
from my generator to the same location. In order to plug the generator

into
the house, it was necessary to unplug from the utility. In order to
reconnect to the utility, I had to unplug from the meter. No way could

they
be hooked up at the same time, and the plugs were designed to minimize any
possibility of touching a "hot" prong.

Costco, for a while, was selling an overpriced setup, with wattmeters and
several double-throw circuit breakers, which is more convenient. They
evidently didn't sell well, because the price kept dropping. When it got
down to $60 I bought the next to the last one they had, and it working
really well.



I bought the same Coleman transfer unit at Costco for $150 after watching
the price drop 2-3 times, I should have waited longer!

That being said, I am listening to the roar of the generator and enjoying a
warm house w/lights and a working computer when 99% of my neighbors have
been without power for over 24 hours now. Gotta love what 3-5" of snow does
to the lowlands in Washington. (Actually it was the freezing rain after the
snow that killed all of the power lines)

Oh yeah, I bartered with a local electrician to install the transfer
switch - total cost to me was about $60 for installation, WAY better than
frying some poor lineman who is trying to hook your power back up for you.

-Dan


  #22   Report Post  
Gary Coffman
 
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On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 00:54:35 GMT, "AL A." wrote:
I bought a transfer panel at a local hardware store. It is the sub panel
type with 2 interlocked 60 amp breakers in it. It was made by
Square D and cost me 70 buck brand new in the box, including the 2 60A
breakers. Will transfer 4 120v circuits (8 if you use the "duplex" type
breakers).

Way cheap insurance and piece of mind.


I use the same box in my house. It is Square D part number
QO4-8M6DS-GP. Home Depot carries it. I have one 30 A
240 volt load breaker for the furnace/air conditioning (takes
up 2 of the available positions), and the other two are duplex
120 volt 15 A breakers feeding four "critical" circuits in the
house.

The interlocked main breakers in the transfer panel eliminate
the possibility of backfeeding the utility or damaging your
generator.

Installing this is simple. Just mount it next to your main
panel, feed its mains side breaker from a 60 amp breaker
in the service panel, feed the generator breaker from the
generator, and move the load wires from their breakers
in the main panel to the new load breakers in the new
panel. It took me less than half an hour to mount and
wire it. It is just like any other simple residential wiring
project. You do not have to pull the meter to install it.

Now there *is* another sort of transfer panel. This type
goes between your utility meter and your service entrance
panel. That one would cost lots more, and you'd have to
pull the meter to install it safely (requiring a permit for a
reconnect in this jurisdiction). That's probably the $1000
solution the electrician was quoting.

But a 7500 watt generator isn't going to be able to carry
a 200 amp service panel anyway, so you don't want that
sort of transfer switch. The little 60 A Square D transfer
panel is perfect for this sort of job.

Gary
  #23   Report Post  
Bob Engelhardt
 
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Dan wrote:
... WAY better than
frying some poor lineman who is trying to hook your power back up for you.


Several replies have voiced this sentiment and it is the official
position of the power company and every other authority that you could
think of.

BUT, it seems to me that as a _load_ the power-less mains coming into
your house look like a dead short! I.e., the combined loads of all your
neighbors as well as the load back through your local pole pig. In
which case your generator breaker would blow in about a millisecond.
The chance of a lineman touching the line AND being grounded during that
ms would be very small. And even if he were, the momentary shock is
unlikely to be fatal or traumatic.

The exception, of course, is is the power outage is in your drop. I.e.,
isolated from your neighbors.

Strictly my opinion of course. I'm sure there are those who will
disagree :-)

Bob
  #24   Report Post  
Carla Fong
 
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When we rewired our house we put in two panels side by side in the
basement - the main one fed from the meter and a second (smaller) panel that
carries just the 'emergency' circuits.

We put a two pole breaker in the main panel and fed it to a dryer outlet
adjacent to the main panel and just under the emergency panel.

We connected a dryer pigtail to the feeder lugs in the emergency panel and
plugged it into the dryer outlet from the main panel.

The generator feed comes from the external generator location to another
dryer receptacle near the first one. We also connected a single ceiling
light fixture directly to this feeder.

When the power fails, we crank up the generator, unplug the dryer pigtail
from the main panel and plug it into the generator receptacle. Seems like
this always happens in the dead of night, so putting the light fixture on
the generator feeder allows easier access to the arrangement... The voice of
experience..

Cost about 20 bucks for the pigtail and two receptacles. Idiot proof. (I
think)

Carla


  #25   Report Post  
Leo Lichtman
 
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Bob wrote:
BUT, it seems to me that as a _load_ the power-less mains coming into your
house look like a dead short! I.e., the combined loads of all your
neighbors as well as the load back through your local pole pig. In which
case your generator breaker would blow in about a millisecond. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have always thought that too. If your genset breaker did not pop, the
motor would stall. Trying to feed voltage into a "dead short" cannot
succeed even for a millisecond. The current would try to go up, but would
exceed the breaker limit while the voltage across the line was still only a
volt or so (maybe).





  #26   Report Post  
jim rozen
 
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In article , Leo
Lichtman says...

Bob wrote:
BUT, it seems to me that as a _load_ the power-less mains coming into your
house look like a dead short! I.e., the combined loads of all your
neighbors as well as the load back through your local pole pig. In which
case your generator breaker would blow in about a millisecond. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have always thought that too. If your genset breaker did not pop, the
motor would stall. Trying to feed voltage into a "dead short" cannot
succeed even for a millisecond. The current would try to go up, but would
exceed the breaker limit while the voltage across the line was still only a
volt or so (maybe).


Consider the case where the genset in question is out on the end
of a long, single line, where the house in question has it's
own pole pig.

And consider that maybe, the long line going to the pole pig
opened up someplace, and a crew were going to work on it.
Even if there were other houses, the load on them might not
be that extreme. Maybe they have transfer switches, so their
major loads are disconnected...

Jim

==================================================
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JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

  #27   Report Post  
Bob Engelhardt
 
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jim rozen wrote:

Consider the case where the genset in question is out on the end
of a long, single line, where the house in question has it's
own pole pig.

And consider that ...


Consider that this is what you clip'ped from _my_ post:
"The exception, of course, is if the power outage is in your drop.
I.e.,
isolated from your neighbors."

Bob
  #28   Report Post  
Anthony
 
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Ecnerwal wrote in
:

In article mw1Lb.184434$ss5.124112@clgrps13,
"Ryan" wrote:

maybe I read it wrong, but it looked like you had to wire up the
items you want to power up individually. I thought you could just
power the entire breaker panel, then shut the breakers off on the
circuits you are not wanting to use. Ryan


What my Dad has at his house in Maine, which is blessed there, is a
setup with the generator fed into the breaker panel (by a breaker of
the generator's rated size) next to the main breaker, and there is a
metal part (interlock) between the generator breaker and the main
breaker which does not allow both to be on at the same time (I'm
reasonably sure it does allow both to be off, however).

Check with the electrician who you will pay for inspecting whether
this is legal in your area. It should be cheap - the interlock part is
just a metal stamping which turns one breaker off if you turn the
other breaker on, whcih pivots in the middle.

As opposed to a manual transfer switch, this has to be a lot cheaper,
just as safe, and it does allow choosing which loads to power from all
loads connected to the panel by flipping their breakers. I don't know
how widely this simple interlock system is accepted (no reason it
should not be other than lobbying of the authorities by people selling
overpriced transfer switches). People who want to sell overpriced
transfer switches should stick to selling the automatic sort, IMHO.

30 AMP 6 slot generator transfer switch, $218.00

http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS...in/pg_diy.jsp?


&CNTTYPE=PROD_META&CNTKEY=Super%20Categories/Building%20%26%
20Remodeling&MID=9876&pos=p03


--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email
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Leo Lichtman
 
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Bob Engelhardt wrote : Consider that this is what you clip'ped from _my_
post: "The exception, of course, is if the power outage is in your drop.
I.e., isolated from your neighbors."
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bob, I am afraid *I* am the one who clipped if from your post, and it is a
good point that I did not consider.
--Leo


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jim rozen
 
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In article , Bob Engelhardt says...

Consider that this is what you clip'ped from _my_ post:
"The exception, of course, is if the power outage is in your drop.
I.e.,
isolated from your neighbors."


Almost but not quite. If I *had* removed that from your post,
that would have been quite a boo-boo. However, this is the post
I was replying to:

(begin quote)
================================================== ============================

rec.crafts.metalworking
open thread view previous | next message


Title: Generators and Back-up power
Author: "Leo Lichtman"
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 21:30:55 GMT



Bob wrote:
BUT, it seems to me that as a _load_ the power-less mains coming into your
house look like a dead short! I.e., the combined loads of all your
neighbors as well as the load back through your local pole pig. In which
case your generator breaker would blow in about a millisecond. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have always thought that too. If your genset breaker did not pop, the
motor would stall. Trying to feed voltage into a "dead short" cannot
succeed even for a millisecond. The current would try to go up, but would
exceed the breaker limit while the voltage across the line was still only a
volt or so (maybe).

================================================== =======================
(end quote)


I was replying to Leo's post, which was missing the exception
that you so rightly emphasized. I suspect that his reply hit
my server before your post did. Or, I am guilty of the minor
sin of not reading *every* post on a thread before replying.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================



  #31   Report Post  
jk
 
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Bob Engelhardt wrote:



BUT, it seems to me that as a _load_ the power-less mains coming into
your house look like a dead short! I.e., the combined loads of all your
neighbors as well as the load back through your local pole pig. In
which case your generator breaker would blow in about a millisecond.



Probably significantly longer, especially if your voltage regulator
isn't very stiff. Essentially you voltage doesn't rise, and your gen
set acts much more like a constant current generator rather than
constant voltage.

The chance of a lineman touching the line AND being grounded during that
ms would be very small.

He doesn't need to be grounded per se, just touching both sides of a
splice.

And even if he were, the momentary shock is
unlikely to be fatal or traumatic.

And you base this on what? The fact that relatively low CURRENTS are
all that is needed to be fatal. Or the fact that a lot of line man
injuries are from falling after being shocked.


The exception, of course, is is the power outage is in your drop. I.e.,
isolated from your neighbors.

Strictly my opinion of course. I'm sure there are those who will
disagree :-)


Strongly


Bob


jk
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Bob Engelhardt
 
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jim rozen wrote:
Almost but not quite. If I *had* removed that from your post,
that would have been quite a boo-boo. However, this is the post
I was replying to: ...


Oops, sorry. You're right, it was _my_ not reading _your_ post
carefully! Guilty of what I accused you of.

Bob
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Bob Engelhardt
 
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jk wrote:

I wrote:
... generator breaker would blow in about a millisecond.


Probably significantly longer, especially if your voltage regulator
isn't very stiff. Essentially you voltage doesn't rise, and your gen
set acts much more like a constant current generator rather than
constant voltage. ...


That sounds like what would happen if the generator were started under
load. Is that what you're suggesting? If so, do people really do
that? I always start my generator without load and switch on the load
after it's up to speed.

Otherwise, switching the load on after the generator is running would
surely pop the breaker. That's what breakers are for. You're not
saying that you can dump a dead short across a generator and have it act
like a "current generator" with a lowered voltage?

Bob
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jk
 
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Bob Engelhardt wrote:

jk wrote:

I wrote:
... generator breaker would blow in about a millisecond.


Probably significantly longer, especially if your voltage regulator
isn't very stiff. Essentially you voltage doesn't rise, and your gen
set acts much more like a constant current generator rather than
constant voltage. ...


That sounds like what would happen if the generator were started under
load. Is that what you're suggesting? If so, do people really do
that? I always start my generator without load and switch on the load
after it's up to speed.

Otherwise, switching the load on after the generator is running would
surely pop the breaker. That's what breakers are for. You're not
saying that you can dump a dead short across a generator and have it act
like a "current generator" with a lowered voltage?

In some cases, yes that is exactly what will happen. A bus fed
excitation system isn't all that capable of exiting the field when it
sees well below rated voltage at it's output. It is much less likely
when you just dump the dead short on the generator that is already up
at it's output, due to exciter time constants, and the fact that you
have already built up the rotor field.

In fact doing this in a controlled fashion, is one way you can test
generator outputs at full current with out an external high current
source.
jk
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