Ok, here's an ebay dilema that keeps coming up.
An item is described as in "good condition" and
also "as is". I interpret that to mean that the
seller is sending me something in "good condition",
not a piece of junk. I acknowledge that I can't
be picky about minor issues that don't impair the
functionality of the unit and that I don't have
any warranty. On the other hand, I would expect
the unit to be useable.

Specifically, I recieved an HP logic analyser
a couple of days ago. Listed as "good condition"
and "as-is". I get the unit and the screen is
so dim I can't read it. I tell the seller and
he says send it back and I'll send you another one.

Ok, but shipping is a big percentage of the cost
of the item. What should I do? What do you do?
This seems to be happening more and more on ebay.

Jim Stewart wrote:

Ok, here's an ebay dilema that keeps coming up.
An item is described as in "good condition" and
also "as is". I interpret that to mean that the
seller is sending me something in "good condition",
not a piece of junk. I acknowledge that I can't
be picky about minor issues that don't impair the
functionality of the unit and that I don't have
any warranty. On the other hand, I would expect
the unit to be useable.

Specifically, I recieved an HP logic analyser
a couple of days ago. Listed as "good condition"
and "as-is". I get the unit and the screen is
so dim I can't read it. I tell the seller and
he says send it back and I'll send you another one.

Ok, but shipping is a big percentage of the cost
of the item. What should I do? What do you do?
This seems to be happening more and more on ebay.


You pay for it with a credit card, first off. That shifts the leverage from the
seller to you. Then all you'd have had to do is to email the seller and explain
why you are about to initiate a chargeback and ask him whether he wants the
piece of garbage to go into the trash or the recycle bin. Let him salvage the
situation.

People who fall for Paypal's crapola and don't pay with a credit card learn a
tough lesson. I strongly suggest you learn from this experience and don't ever
fail to pay this way again.

GWE

Grant Erwin wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:

Ok, here's an ebay dilema that keeps coming up.
An item is described as in "good condition" and
also "as is". I interpret that to mean that the
seller is sending me something in "good condition",
not a piece of junk. I acknowledge that I can't
be picky about minor issues that don't impair the
functionality of the unit and that I don't have
any warranty. On the other hand, I would expect
the unit to be useable.

Specifically, I recieved an HP logic analyser
a couple of days ago. Listed as "good condition"
and "as-is". I get the unit and the screen is
so dim I can't read it. I tell the seller and
he says send it back and I'll send you another one.

Ok, but shipping is a big percentage of the cost
of the item. What should I do? What do you do?
This seems to be happening more and more on ebay.


You pay for it with a credit card, first off. That shifts the leverage
from the seller to you. Then all you'd have had to do is to email the
seller and explain why you are about to initiate a chargeback and ask
him whether he wants the piece of garbage to go into the trash or the
recycle bin. Let him salvage the situation.

I wasn't looking for advice on handling this transaction,
I was interested in peoples' opinions about the contra-
diction of "as-is" and "good condition". In this deal, after
I posted this message I got an email from the buyer with
a good-faith offer to resolve the situation.

People who fall for Paypal's crapola and don't pay with a credit card
learn a tough lesson. I strongly suggest you learn from this experience
and don't ever fail to pay this way again.

I *always* use a credit card and Paypal. OTOH, I try
not to escalate situations until I have a clear understanding
of what my expectations should be.

I always read those two phrases this way:

"Good condition" means that is works as well as can be expected for the
age of the item. That means that a year old car with 10k miles had
better be close to showroom condition. A 10 year old vehicle with 160k
miles is expected to start, run, motivate, stop, and pass a vehicle
inspection. In your case, the dim display does not pass my test for
"good condition" In any case "good condition" is subjective, you have to
depend on the seller's good faith effort.

"as is" means the seller does not warrant that unit does all that it is
supposed to.

There is no problem with an ethical seller, he says it's 'good' and
"except for" and if there is some MAJOR thing, he will take it back. The
marginal seller says "good" then uses the "as is" to completely ignore
whaterver he meant by the rest of the description.

I run into this at surplus vehicle auctions. The description says "good"
(or fair or poor) and "as is" It is explcitly stated that you are
responsible for for your own determination of what you think it's worth
or condition is. The description is just for guidance, there are usually
a full range of good/fair/poor. I find that useful, keeps me from
driving to see major junk.

Jim Stewart wrote:
Ok, here's an ebay dilema that keeps coming up.
An item is described as in "good condition" and
also "as is". I interpret that to mean that the
seller is sending me something in "good condition",
not a piece of junk. I acknowledge that I can't
be picky about minor issues that don't impair the
functionality of the unit and that I don't have
any warranty. On the other hand, I would expect
the unit to be useable.

Specifically, I recieved an HP logic analyser
a couple of days ago. Listed as "good condition"
and "as-is". I get the unit and the screen is
so dim I can't read it. I tell the seller and
he says send it back and I'll send you another one.

Ok, but shipping is a big percentage of the cost
of the item. What should I do? What do you do?
This seems to be happening more and more on ebay.

AS IS = Ebay double speak for

#1 Seller bought the item at government liquidations for $1.00 and knows
nothing about
the item but he seen them on ebay selling for big bucks. In an attempt
to protect his
investment seller uses "AS IS" to avoid giving you a refund for a
useless piece of junk.

#2 Seller bought a skid load of customer returns, the items are defective
and to costly
to repair. The term "AS IS" is the escape clause to avoid refunds.

#3 Dumpster diver selling some crap they found in the toxic dump site last
night,
"AS IS" means no refunds because i emptey my paypal account everyday
and there is no money to be had. You will have to stiff paypal with a
charge back.

#4 I painted the item so it should work, i hope you won't notice the cracks
in the
castings we used $1000.00 a quart paint and that should hold it
together. Anyway
the item was sold "AS IS" it's your problem now.

#5 The bearings feel smooth but i can't figure out whey it sounds like a
cement mixer
when power is applied. "AS IS" means you pay for any repairs, don't
even think
about a refund.

Best Regards
Tom.

I do not see the two as contradictory.

As-is to me is setting warrenty conditions.
Good condition tells me nothing about warrenty but does convey
something subjective about the condition.

I would consider myself fortunate that the seller is willing to send
you another unit since you agreed by bidding that it was as-is.

That is why I will not buy on ebay unless I am willing to take the loss
or unless it is close enough to inspect.

Having a credit card reverse out the transaction simply removes the
credit card company from the transaction and puts you in a similar
position as stopping payment on a cheque. You agreed by bidding that
the warrenty was as-is so you need to pay for it. If you decide that
the good condition was false and misleading you go into dispute.

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:29:51 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:

Ok, here's an ebay dilema that keeps coming up.
An item is described as in "good condition" and
also "as is". I interpret that to mean that the
seller is sending me something in "good condition",
not a piece of junk. I acknowledge that I can't
be picky about minor issues that don't impair the
functionality of the unit and that I don't have
any warranty. On the other hand, I would expect
the unit to be useable.

Specifically, I recieved an HP logic analyser
a couple of days ago. Listed as "good condition"
and "as-is". I get the unit and the screen is
so dim I can't read it. I tell the seller and
he says send it back and I'll send you another one.

Ok, but shipping is a big percentage of the cost
of the item. What should I do? What do you do?
This seems to be happening more and more on ebay.


You pay for it with a credit card, first off. That shifts the leverage from the
seller to you. Then all you'd have had to do is to email the seller and explain
why you are about to initiate a chargeback and ask him whether he wants the
piece of garbage to go into the trash or the recycle bin. Let him salvage the
situation.

People who fall for Paypal's crapola and don't pay with a credit card learn a
tough lesson. I strongly suggest you learn from this experience and don't ever
fail to pay this way again.

GWE
Greetings Grant,
I have reached my paypal "sending limit". I am very uncomfortable
about giving them a bank account number. Especially when they have
ABSOLUTELY NO reason for this account number. Since I use a credit
card to pay. Did you give paypal an account number to become verified?
And, since you seem to always use a credit card, do you just not
bother with auctions that won't take a credit card?
Eric

That will actually settle the situation for him... in his favor.
You are almost always required to send back the merchandise --
often at your expense -- to receive the chargeback.

Grant Erwin wrote:

You pay for it with a credit card, first off. That shifts the leverage
from the seller to you. Then all you'd have had to do is to email the
seller and explain why you are about to initiate a chargeback and ask
him whether he wants the piece of garbage to go into the trash or the
recycle bin. Let him salvage the situation.

Eric R Snow wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:29:51 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:


Jim Stewart wrote:


Ok, here's an ebay dilema that keeps coming up.
An item is described as in "good condition" and
also "as is". I interpret that to mean that the
seller is sending me something in "good condition",
not a piece of junk. I acknowledge that I can't
be picky about minor issues that don't impair the
functionality of the unit and that I don't have
any warranty. On the other hand, I would expect
the unit to be useable.

Specifically, I recieved an HP logic analyser
a couple of days ago. Listed as "good condition"
and "as-is". I get the unit and the screen is
so dim I can't read it. I tell the seller and
he says send it back and I'll send you another one.

Ok, but shipping is a big percentage of the cost
of the item. What should I do? What do you do?
This seems to be happening more and more on ebay.


You pay for it with a credit card, first off. That shifts the leverage from the
seller to you. Then all you'd have had to do is to email the seller and explain
why you are about to initiate a chargeback and ask him whether he wants the
piece of garbage to go into the trash or the recycle bin. Let him salvage the
situation.

People who fall for Paypal's crapola and don't pay with a credit card learn a
tough lesson. I strongly suggest you learn from this experience and don't ever
fail to pay this way again.

GWE

Greetings Grant,
I have reached my paypal "sending limit". I am very uncomfortable
about giving them a bank account number. Especially when they have
ABSOLUTELY NO reason for this account number. Since I use a credit
card to pay. Did you give paypal an account number to become verified?
And, since you seem to always use a credit card, do you just not
bother with auctions that won't take a credit card?
Eric

I gave them my number, yes I'm verified. I occasionally pursue auctions that
don't take credit cards but I'm *much* more circumspect.

I completely disagree with the person who wrote that you don't get your money
back from the credit card company until/unless you ship back the merchandise.
They put money into the guy's Paypal account, they go pull it back out, you
don't owe your credit card anything, you're out your shipping, the seller's out
his auction amount. I have done this a couple of times. Not that I'm a tough
buyer to get along with, but this is the only real recourse with teeth.

GWE

Eric R Snow wrote:

I have reached my paypal "sending limit". I am very uncomfortable
about giving them a bank account number. ... Did you give paypal an account number to become verified?
....

You have to give PayPal a bank account to become verified (businesses
have an alternative, but not individuals).

They do not have my bank account, so I am not verified. However, I do
not have a spending limit. I think this is a result of their having my
bank account once, which I closed. They canceled the verified status,
but didn't set a limit.

Bob

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:17:56 -0600, Mike Berger
wrote:

That will actually settle the situation for him... in his favor.
You are almost always required to send back the merchandise --
often at your expense -- to receive the chargeback.

Grant Erwin wrote:

You pay for it with a credit card, first off. That shifts the leverage
from the seller to you. Then all you'd have had to do is to email the
seller and explain why you are about to initiate a chargeback and ask
him whether he wants the piece of garbage to go into the trash or the
recycle bin. Let him salvage the situation.
I bought tool from a fellow through ebay who represented himself as a
metalworking tool store. The item arrived in good condition and I was
happy. Then I get my credit card statement and there is a charge from
a woodworking tool store that I had never heard of. I called the card
company and they removed the money immediately from the woodworking
tool store. Then I recieved an e-mail from the guy who sold the tool
in question to me asking what was wrong with it, why had I told the
card company that the charge was questionable. That's when I figured
out that the guy had two store names (at least) and he had run the
charge through the wood tool store. I explained to him why I had
thought there might be a problem with the charge, that he should make
sure all the store names he gives me matched the name he gives my
credit card company, and that now that I knew the charge was valid I
would call the card company right away and tell them the charge was
valid. I still had to fill out a form the card company sent me to make
sure the guy got his money. It sure was nice that the card company was
so willing to make sure no fraudulent charges occur.
ERS

..

I completely disagree with the person who wrote that you don't get your
money back from the credit card company until/unless you ship back the
merchandise. They put money into the guy's Paypal account, they go pull it
back out, you don't owe your credit card anything, you're out your
shipping, the seller's out his auction amount. I have done this a couple
of times. Not that I'm a tough buyer to get along with, but this is the
only real recourse with teeth.

GWE

Wow, that is scary. What if I sell a perfectly good item to someone on
ebay, and they just
charge back the amount they paid and keep the item? They could even resell
it under
another account! What recourse does the seller have against this other than
a costly lawsuit?

Rick wrote:
.

I completely disagree with the person who wrote that you don't get your
money back from the credit card company until/unless you ship back the
merchandise. They put money into the guy's Paypal account, they go pull it
back out, you don't owe your credit card anything, you're out your
shipping, the seller's out his auction amount. I have done this a couple
of times. Not that I'm a tough buyer to get along with, but this is the
only real recourse with teeth.

GWE


Wow, that is scary. What if I sell a perfectly good item to someone on
ebay, and they just
charge back the amount they paid and keep the item? They could even resell
it under
another account! What recourse does the seller have against this other than
a costly lawsuit?



Exactly. When the buyer uses a credit card, HE is in charge. When he doesn't,
the seller is in charge. Someone has to be!

Ideally (and this is the case the vast majority of the time) you don't sell to
crooks or buy from crooks.

Lately I've started asking for money orders only, to guard against unwarranted
chargebacks. It will only fly if the guy really wants what I'm selling, but
that's often the case.

GWE

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Rick wrote:
.

I completely disagree with the person who wrote that you don't get your
money back from the credit card company until/unless you ship back the
merchandise. They put money into the guy's Paypal account, they go pull
it back out, you don't owe your credit card anything, you're out your
shipping, the seller's out his auction amount. I have done this a couple
of times. Not that I'm a tough buyer to get along with, but this is the
only real recourse with teeth.

GWE


Wow, that is scary. What if I sell a perfectly good item to someone on
ebay, and they just
charge back the amount they paid and keep the item? They could even
resell it under
another account! What recourse does the seller have against this other
than a costly lawsuit?

Exactly. When the buyer uses a credit card, HE is in charge. When he
doesn't, the seller is in charge. Someone has to be!

Ideally (and this is the case the vast majority of the time) you don't
sell to crooks or buy from crooks.

Lately I've started asking for money orders only, to guard against
unwarranted chargebacks. It will only fly if the guy really wants what I'm
selling, but that's often the case.

GWE

except money orders are frequently fraudulent

iggy said:

Sometimes I sell items "as is" with a full refund guarantee.

So this is "untested" but warranted? Cool. But "as is" usually means
something else.

"Good condition" means whatever the seller wants it to mean.

"Good condition" to me means :Ask LOTS of questions. It won't protect
you against out-and-out crooks but it can keep a more level playing
field.

"As is" in my experience means the seller is expecting the buyer to
forgo any claims based on condition. Generally not a good way to buy
things of any import.

dennis
in nca

p.s. Were those your heat exchangers on ebay recently?

Rick wrote:
Wow, that is scary. What if I sell a perfectly good item to someone on
ebay, and they just charge back the amount they paid and keep the item?
They could even resell it under another account!

What recourse does
the seller have against this other than a costly lawsuit?

I suppose that the buyer is then a "non paying bidder" and could be
reported to eBay as such. This gives the seller a little leverage, as
too many Unpaid Item "strikes" can get a user suspended. Bob

Grant Erwin wrote:
Rick wrote:

.

I completely disagree with the person who wrote that you don't get
your money back from the credit card company until/unless you ship
back the merchandise. They put money into the guy's Paypal account,
they go pull it back out, you don't owe your credit card anything,
you're out your shipping, the seller's out his auction amount. I have
done this a couple of times. Not that I'm a tough buyer to get along
with, but this is the only real recourse with teeth.

GWE



Wow, that is scary. What if I sell a perfectly good item to someone
on ebay, and they just
charge back the amount they paid and keep the item? They could even
resell it under
another account! What recourse does the seller have against this
other than a costly lawsuit?


Exactly. When the buyer uses a credit card, HE is in charge. When he
doesn't, the seller is in charge. Someone has to be!

Ideally (and this is the case the vast majority of the time) you don't
sell to crooks or buy from crooks.

Lately I've started asking for money orders only, to guard against
unwarranted chargebacks. It will only fly if the guy really wants what
I'm selling, but that's often the case.

It's clear that by your rules, ie, buyers only
take money orders and sellers only pay by credit
cards, there wouldn't be an ebay.

Good Condition = "I have no idea if it works or not but after I used 409 on
the paint it looks shiny"

As Is= "Don't complain to me if it dosen't work"

As for the what I do... If I buy "As Is" I KNOW I'm buying junk and if it
works I'm surprised...
What should you do... Take this a a inexpensive lesson in the evils of
'FleaBay', toss off some negative feed back and move on...

And here's my $0.02 on PayPal.. ANYONE who use this is asking for trouble..
this is essentially an 'unregistered bank'.. there are no laws protecting
you, there is no equivelent of FDIC on this, it's just your good faith..
ANYONE who sends an outfit like PayPal (of Bidpay or any of the others) an
Credit Card number or Bank Account is just asking to get ripped off.. if
someone working at PayPal (and believe me they pay **** to the employees,
just puruse the CraigsList software jobs in the bay area for PayPal) or a
good hacker abscounds with tons of cash or all those ripe CC/BA numbers...
yer screwed...

IMHO there is only ONE way to do business on eBay, Money Order or Casheiers
Check... it's the only way I'll buy... It's the only way I'll sell....

--.- Dave


"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Ok, here's an ebay dilema that keeps coming up.
An item is described as in "good condition" and
also "as is". I interpret that to mean that the
seller is sending me something in "good condition",
not a piece of junk. I acknowledge that I can't
be picky about minor issues that don't impair the
functionality of the unit and that I don't have
any warranty. On the other hand, I would expect
the unit to be useable.

Specifically, I recieved an HP logic analyser
a couple of days ago. Listed as "good condition"
and "as-is". I get the unit and the screen is
so dim I can't read it. I tell the seller and
he says send it back and I'll send you another one.

Ok, but shipping is a big percentage of the cost
of the item. What should I do? What do you do?
This seems to be happening more and more on ebay.

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 01:12:16 GMT, "Dave August"
wrote:

Good Condition = "I have no idea if it works or not but after I used 409 on
the paint it looks shiny"

As Is= "Don't complain to me if it dosen't work"

As for the what I do... If I buy "As Is" I KNOW I'm buying junk and if it
works I'm surprised...
What should you do... Take this a a inexpensive lesson in the evils of
'FleaBay', toss off some negative feed back and move on...

And here's my $0.02 on PayPal.. ANYONE who use this is asking for trouble..
this is essentially an 'unregistered bank'.. there are no laws protecting
you, there is no equivelent of FDIC on this, it's just your good faith..
ANYONE who sends an outfit like PayPal (of Bidpay or any of the others) an
Credit Card number or Bank Account is just asking to get ripped off.. if
someone working at PayPal (and believe me they pay **** to the employees,
just puruse the CraigsList software jobs in the bay area for PayPal) or a
good hacker abscounds with tons of cash or all those ripe CC/BA numbers...
yer screwed...

IMHO there is only ONE way to do business on eBay, Money Order or Casheiers
Check... it's the only way I'll buy... It's the only way I'll sell....

--.- Dave

It seems that more and more I see auctions that say they will not use
paypal. I don't use them for the above reasons. But I asked one seller
about his NO PAYPAL policy. I wondered if he too didn't like the
account number thing. But his aversion to paypal was based on a bible
verse. I wonder if paypal runs all the account numbers through an
algorithm that returns the number 666.
ERS
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Ok, here's an ebay dilema that keeps coming up.
An item is described as in "good condition" and
also "as is". I interpret that to mean that the
seller is sending me something in "good condition",
not a piece of junk. I acknowledge that I can't
be picky about minor issues that don't impair the
functionality of the unit and that I don't have
any warranty. On the other hand, I would expect
the unit to be useable.

Specifically, I recieved an HP logic analyser
a couple of days ago. Listed as "good condition"
and "as-is". I get the unit and the screen is
so dim I can't read it. I tell the seller and
he says send it back and I'll send you another one.

Ok, but shipping is a big percentage of the cost
of the item. What should I do? What do you do?
This seems to be happening more and more on ebay.

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Ok, here's an ebay dilema that keeps coming up.
An item is described as in "good condition" and
also "as is". I interpret that to mean that the
seller is sending me something in "good condition",
not a piece of junk. I acknowledge that I can't
be picky about minor issues that don't impair the
functionality of the unit and that I don't have
any warranty. On the other hand, I would expect
the unit to be useable.

Specifically, I recieved an HP logic analyser
a couple of days ago. Listed as "good condition"
and "as-is". I get the unit and the screen is
so dim I can't read it. I tell the seller and
he says send it back and I'll send you another one.

Ok, but shipping is a big percentage of the cost
of the item. What should I do? What do you do?
This seems to be happening more and more on ebay.

How much did you pay for the item, what will it cost to return and what
would you expect the fair market value of that logic analyzer to be,
assuming your definition of good condition? Will you have to pay to ship
the one you got back as well as for the replacement to be sent to you? How
certain are you that the replacement will meet expectations.

Part of the problem is that folks can have honest differences of opinion on
what "good condition" constitutes. Good sellers will mention little details
like "dim display", assuming that they know enough to check things like
that, or point out other known defects in either pictures or description and
preferably both. Some sellers just don't know anything about what they are
selling and others are purposefully vague about details. From your side of
the story, it sounds like you might have the latter type of seller.

I've been burned a couple of times in the past on Ebay items and have always
just sucked it up, figuring it's up to me to ask questions if I plan to bid
more than I can afford to lose. One can't always ask about every issue that
might come up so for expensive items its a good idea to ask about return
policy or limit oneself to something that can be checked out in person.
I've also noticed that it is a Very Bad Sign when I'm the high bidder on
something that brings a lot less than I expected it to. That usually means
I missed some important detail that other bidders noticed or that they asked
questions I didn't.

Mike

Mike Henry wrote:
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...

Ok, here's an ebay dilema that keeps coming up.
An item is described as in "good condition" and
also "as is". I interpret that to mean that the
seller is sending me something in "good condition",
not a piece of junk. I acknowledge that I can't
be picky about minor issues that don't impair the
functionality of the unit and that I don't have
any warranty. On the other hand, I would expect
the unit to be useable.

Specifically, I recieved an HP logic analyser
a couple of days ago. Listed as "good condition"
and "as-is". I get the unit and the screen is
so dim I can't read it. I tell the seller and
he says send it back and I'll send you another one.

Ok, but shipping is a big percentage of the cost
of the item. What should I do? What do you do?
This seems to be happening more and more on ebay.


How much did you pay for the item, what will it cost to return and what
would you expect the fair market value of that logic analyzer to be,
assuming your definition of good condition? Will you have to pay to ship
the one you got back as well as for the replacement to be sent to you? How
certain are you that the replacement will meet expectations.

Part of the problem is that folks can have honest differences of opinion on
what "good condition" constitutes. Good sellers will mention little details
like "dim display", assuming that they know enough to check things like
that, or point out other known defects in either pictures or description and
preferably both. Some sellers just don't know anything about what they are
selling and others are purposefully vague about details. From your side of
the story, it sounds like you might have the latter type of seller.

I've been burned a couple of times in the past on Ebay items and have always
just sucked it up, figuring it's up to me to ask questions if I plan to bid
more than I can afford to lose. One can't always ask about every issue that
might come up so for expensive items its a good idea to ask about return
policy or limit oneself to something that can be checked out in person.
I've also noticed that it is a Very Bad Sign when I'm the high bidder on
something that brings a lot less than I expected it to. That usually means
I missed some important detail that other bidders noticed or that they asked
questions I didn't.

Mike





hell that almost sounds like PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY

Both are entirely and highly subjective to both seller and buyer.
Generally, I take 'as-is' to mean no warranty, no return, doesn't work.
'Good condition' I ignore. I download pics of items within this subject
and examine them closely in my photo app. You can usually determine
cosmetic value this way. An item that 'functions' (DVD player, for
instance), Has to be presented as 'works perfectly',' as new', or
similar for me to bid. I would never bid on such presented as either
'as-us' or 'good condition'. If it works well, a seller will go to
lengths to express that.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Jim Stewart wrote:
Ok, here's an ebay dilema that keeps coming up.
An item is described as in "good condition" and
also "as is". I interpret that to mean that the
seller is sending me something in "good condition",
not a piece of junk. I acknowledge that I can't
be picky about minor issues that don't impair the
functionality of the unit and that I don't have
any warranty. On the other hand, I would expect
the unit to be useable.

Specifically, I recieved an HP logic analyser
a couple of days ago. Listed as "good condition"
and "as-is". I get the unit and the screen is
so dim I can't read it. I tell the seller and
he says send it back and I'll send you another one.

Ok, but shipping is a big percentage of the cost
of the item. What should I do? What do you do?
This seems to be happening more and more on ebay.



--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

Jim Stewart wrote:

Grant Erwin wrote:

Rick wrote:

.

I completely disagree with the person who wrote that you don't get
your money back from the credit card company until/unless you ship
back the merchandise. They put money into the guy's Paypal account,
they go pull it back out, you don't owe your credit card anything,
you're out your shipping, the seller's out his auction amount. I
have done this a couple of times. Not that I'm a tough buyer to get
along with, but this is the only real recourse with teeth.

GWE




Wow, that is scary. What if I sell a perfectly good item to someone
on ebay, and they just
charge back the amount they paid and keep the item? They could even
resell it under
another account! What recourse does the seller have against this
other than a costly lawsuit?


Exactly. When the buyer uses a credit card, HE is in charge. When he
doesn't, the seller is in charge. Someone has to be!

Ideally (and this is the case the vast majority of the time) you don't
sell to crooks or buy from crooks.

Lately I've started asking for money orders only, to guard against
unwarranted chargebacks. It will only fly if the guy really wants what
I'm selling, but that's often the case.


It's clear that by your rules, ie, buyers only
take money orders and sellers only pay by credit
cards, there wouldn't be an ebay.

I just play the game the way it is, that's all. Just today I got an ebay
shipment that was completely misrepresented. Because I paid by credit card, the
seller was motivated to make a serious effort to make things right by me. I
would never do a fraudulent chargeback, just as I'm sure you wouldn't. But there
are a lot of crooks out there selling on ebay too, and I hit one every so often.

GWE

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
news
Rick wrote:
Wow, that is scary. What if I sell a perfectly good item to someone on
ebay, and they just charge back the amount they paid and keep the item?
They could even resell it under another account!

What recourse does
the seller have against this other than a costly lawsuit?

I suppose that the buyer is then a "non paying bidder" and could be
reported to eBay as such. This gives the seller a little leverage, as too
many Unpaid Item "strikes" can get a user suspended. Bob

Oh yay, so the buyer can only steal 4 or 5 $600 items before he has to make
another ebay account.

Good show!

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
Jim Stewart wrote:

Grant Erwin wrote:

Rick wrote:

.

I completely disagree with the person who wrote that you don't get
your money back from the credit card company until/unless you ship
back the merchandise. They put money into the guy's Paypal account,
they go pull it back out, you don't owe your credit card anything,
you're out your shipping, the seller's out his auction amount. I have
done this a couple of times. Not that I'm a tough buyer to get along
with, but this is the only real recourse with teeth.

GWE




Wow, that is scary. What if I sell a perfectly good item to someone on
ebay, and they just
charge back the amount they paid and keep the item? They could even
resell it under
another account! What recourse does the seller have against this other
than a costly lawsuit?


Exactly. When the buyer uses a credit card, HE is in charge. When he
doesn't, the seller is in charge. Someone has to be!

Ideally (and this is the case the vast majority of the time) you don't
sell to crooks or buy from crooks.

Lately I've started asking for money orders only, to guard against
unwarranted chargebacks. It will only fly if the guy really wants what
I'm selling, but that's often the case.


It's clear that by your rules, ie, buyers only
take money orders and sellers only pay by credit
cards, there wouldn't be an ebay.

I just play the game the way it is, that's all. Just today I got an ebay
shipment that was completely misrepresented. Because I paid by credit
card, the seller was motivated to make a serious effort to make things
right by me. I would never do a fraudulent chargeback, just as I'm sure
you wouldn't. But there are a lot of crooks out there selling on ebay too,
and I hit one every so often.

GWE


I think I have a solution. I will not ship an item to any buyer who has any
negative payment history in their feedback. I will just cancel their bid or
return their money if they snipe at the last minute.

I need to sell some expensive items, and I wanted to let people pay via
paypal...

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
...
Ok, here's an ebay dilema that keeps coming up.
An item is described as in "good condition" and
also "as is". I interpret that to mean that the
seller is sending me something in "good condition",
not a piece of junk. I acknowledge that I can't
be picky about minor issues that don't impair the
functionality of the unit and that I don't have
any warranty. On the other hand, I would expect
the unit to be useable.

Specifically, I recieved an HP logic analyser
a couple of days ago. Listed as "good condition"
and "as-is". I get the unit and the screen is
so dim I can't read it. I tell the seller and
he says send it back and I'll send you another one.

Ok, but shipping is a big percentage of the cost
of the item. What should I do? What do you do?
This seems to be happening more and more on ebay.



Here is an idea. On as-is items, bid only what you would pay if the item
were broken.

That way, when you get a working item, you are pleasantly surprised, and if
not, well, nobody to blame but yourself.

If more people did this, we wouldn't have crazy high prices for crap.

It sure was nice that the card company was
so willing to make sure no fraudulent charges occur.
ERS


It's a good bet that company wasn't Discover Card. They HELPED a fraudulent
company (Geswein) steal $700 from me.

I've only done it once -- but was required to send the worthless
merchandise back in a trackable form before Paypal would authorize
the refund. Maybe your seller didn't want his merchandise back.

Grant Erwin wrote:

I completely disagree with the person who wrote that you don't get your
money back from the credit card company until/unless you ship back the
merchandise. They put money into the guy's Paypal account, they go pull
it back out, you don't owe your credit card anything, you're out your
shipping, the seller's out his auction amount. I have done this a couple
of times. Not that I'm a tough buyer to get along with, but this is the
only real recourse with teeth.

GWE

Yeah, and it's not the credit card user. It's the credit card
provider that's in charge. They make the ultimate decision.

Grant Erwin wrote:

Exactly. When the buyer uses a credit card, HE is in charge. When he
doesn't, the seller is in charge. Someone has to be!

The meaning of terms like "good condition" vary depending
on whether you're the buyer or seller.

Jim Stewart wrote:
Ok, here's an ebay dilema that keeps coming up.
An item is described as in "good condition" and
also "as is". I interpret that to mean that the
seller is sending me something in "good condition",
not a piece of junk.

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:37:16 -0800, Grant Erwin
wrote:



Lately I've started asking for money orders only, to guard against unwarranted
chargebacks. It will only fly if the guy really wants what I'm selling, but
that's often the case.

GWE

So you will only use a card to purchase, but will accept MO to sell?

_Carl

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 10:52:49 -0600, Mike Berger wrote:
The meaning of terms like "good condition" vary depending
on whether you're the buyer or seller.

Depends on the seller, Mike. Question: how would you read this:
"This item was removed from service not because it was defective, but
because the project we were using it for ended. There are no known or
visible problems with this item."

Dave Hinz wrote:
Depends on the seller, Mike. Question: how would you read this:
"This item was removed from service not because it was defective, but
because the project we were using it for ended. There are no known or
visible problems with this item."

I bought a VFD on eBay that was described that way. When I got it and
hooked it up, it was crazy: the motor would run and then brake for an
instant, then run again, etc. I resolved it by changing the carrier
frequency (go figure) and in email with the seller, he said "Oh, yeah,
it was doing that for us too". So much for "Removed from service,
working fine". It worked out, but the guy was a lying two-face.

Bob

Mike Berger wrote:

I've only done it once -- but was required to send the worthless
merchandise back in a trackable form before Paypal would authorize
the refund. Maybe your seller didn't want his merchandise back.

Grant Erwin wrote:


I completely disagree with the person who wrote that you don't get
your money back from the credit card company until/unless you ship
back the merchandise. They put money into the guy's Paypal account,
they go pull it back out, you don't owe your credit card anything,
you're out your shipping, the seller's out his auction amount. I have
done this a couple of times. Not that I'm a tough buyer to get along
with, but this is the only real recourse with teeth.

GWE

Paypal? What do they have to do with it? I deal with my VISA card!

GWE

A lawsuit is not that costly. In my area if the amount is under $5000
then it is a small claims court and filing fee is something like $20.

The other person does not need to appear but can file their defense and
counterclaim in writing.

Some companies on the internet will not sell to an individual after
they have done a chargeback on credit card .

Me too. And on the most recent two occasions they asked me to
go through the Paypal and Ebay dispute procedures FIRST.

Grant Erwin wrote:

Paypal? What do they have to do with it? I deal with my VISA card!

GWE

I didn't mean that to be entire serious. The problem is that we
use subjective terms to describe everything and they don't have
the same meaning to all of us.

I would say your description was incomplete. I saw some old
mainframe computers that were removed from service due to
obsolescence and were in otherwise perfect condition -- until
the people who removed them chopped cables with an axe to
disconnect them.

Dave Hinz wrote:
On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 10:52:49 -0600, Mike Berger wrote:

The meaning of terms like "good condition" vary depending
on whether you're the buyer or seller.


Depends on the seller, Mike. Question: how would you read this:
"This item was removed from service not because it was defective, but
because the project we were using it for ended. There are no known or
visible problems with this item."

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:49:43 -0600, Mike Berger wrote:
I didn't mean that to be entire serious. The problem is that we
use subjective terms to describe everything and they don't have
the same meaning to all of us.

I would say your description was incomplete. I saw some old
mainframe computers that were removed from service due to
obsolescence and were in otherwise perfect condition -- until
the people who removed them chopped cables with an axe to
disconnect them.

But, that would be a "known or visible" problem, wouldn't it? I wrote
that particular description to say, in effect, "I know it worked when we
stopped using it, but I have no way of testing it (thermal insulative
properties of a liquid nitrogen dewar) so here's the deal". Should I
just say "It was good when we retired it, it's been stored
appropriately, and although I have no way to test it, I have no reason
to think that it has degraded in any way in the time it has been out of
service"? Seriously. How do I convey what I'm trying to say in the
best way, given the tendancy (warranted or not) to not trust anyone
selling anything?